You're Closer to AI Mastery Than You Think...

Norm says you're like some like traveling professor of AI or something. Tell us about that. >> I was teaching AI mindset to MBA students. I was able to hit over 30 countries and I was able to teach at universities all around Asia, Europe, and a little bit in the Middle East in Dubai as well. All of my students that wanted to start and operate their own businesses, I would teach them how to think about AI to leverage it effectively. Should companies avoid doing any form of automation just too early? One of the things that I really like to teach with AI mindset is that you don't need to know how to do it. As long as you know how to communicate clearly and work with the different platforms that you're already using, you can have them teach you just about anything that you could want to learn in a way that's best tailored for you and your learning style. >> So, let's do this in a step by step. You're watching Marketing Misfits with Norm Ferrar and Kevin K. >> Norm, you're a systems guy, right? >> Some people think so. >> So, don't you h isn't it true that you have to have a good human system to have a good AI system? >> Well, yeah, you got to direct it because there's a lot of people that are like trying to automate or put AI into the business. And I I hear these stories and I read these articles about companies that are doing it and then they back off of it. They like, "Ah, that didn't quite work or h that didn't that didn't it's costing us more money." But I think a lot of those when you go down to the root, they're just they're not implementing they don't have a good human system to actually replicate in an AI system, >> right? Yeah. Absolutely. Uh most of the time it's garbage in garbage out, right? >> So how do you automate? If you automate something, you can automate stuff, but if you don't automate a good system, you're just automating exactly what you said, garbage in, garbage out. That's what our guest today is known for. I think he he's done like I don't know 15 20,000 uh businesses. I I don't know if that's him personally like in there in the business or that's some sort of tools that have been used, but he's helped a lot of business automate their systems and their processes, not just e-commerce businesses, but businesses across the gamut. Well, even more than that, he was teaching about AI in universities before AI. Well, he he looks like he's such a young guy, but he's been teaching all over the world AI before it really became popular. So, I mean that's something that Dragonfish I mean part of what our plan Dragonfish is that we have this massive demand right now for our email services in particular and we're in beta about to come out of beta depending on when this is comes out you we may be out about it beta go to dragon.fish fish if you want information on that. But I'm concerned about scaling this. And so the good systems, what you're a master at, and then good automations should allow us to scale this and grow this pretty quickly. And if we bungle that and mess that up, we're like DOA in the water, right? >> We'll just end up being a master beta. >> We'll just be for two years. We'll be a master beta. >> Yeah. Oh gosh. Down that rabbit hole. >> Get this get this thing launched. But yeah. Yeah. So, uh, but it's going to be interesting to talk to us today. I mean, we've had a lot of recent episodes about AI here on the marketing misfits, but we try to bring a different angle to each one. Occasionally, we might cover something that crosses over because I know everybody doesn't listen to every single episode. Uh, but this should be a good one. And and this guy is already on my uh my favorite list because he's wearing an Ecom Mastery AI shirt. He was at my event back in April. Uh so, uh he's already already up the ladder. Uh so this is going to be fun. All right. Well, let's bring him on. Mr. William Devito. >> You know William, right? Nor. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. We're buddies. >> Your budd Oh, shoot. Well, if you're buddies, then I take everything back because anybody of yours is nobody of my >> Oh, man. How you doing, William? >> I'm doing great. How are you guys doing today? >> Good. I told you about him, right, William? So, just uh >> I detected I detected I detect an accent there. >> Oh, um well, I'm from South Florida, but uh I kind of worked out my accent a little bit when I was traveling and I had to do some teaching. Um got to speak a little bit slower and more at a B1 B2 level, but >> So, what's this teaching? What's this teaching? Norm says you're like some like traveling professor of AI or something. What what te tell us about that. >> Yeah, so I was traveling outside of the US for a little over two years. I was able to hit over 30 countries and I was able to teach at universities all around Asia, Europe, and a little bit in the Middle East in Dubai as well. >> What kind of teaching? >> I was teaching uh AI mindset to MBA students. So all of my students that wanted to start and operate their own businesses, I would teach them how to think about AI to leverage it effectively. So, how do I need to think about it? What what what are Let me rephrase that. What are what are most people thinking wrong about AI? And what what do you what shift do you see most common you need to make in their in their framing? >> I would say the biggest one is that a lot of people look at it like it's just another Google. They use it to go ahead and if they're a business owner, they might look up uh how can I sell this product better or some basic information. But when you really get into AI and automations, agents and workflows, and all of this awesome stuff, you realize that there isn't a single digital task that AI cannot effectively handle as long as you set it up properly. >> But that's the key, right, William? Is it's just uh setting it up properly. We were talking about that at the very beginning is so many people don't understand that. So, how do you even start to understand how to set up that system? Well, I think the way that I used to teach it and the quickest way to explain it is that right now AI like let's take uh chat GPT as an example platform. It's not one that I use too often cuz there's some that are much better for specific use cases, but ChatGpt has access to more or less the entirety of the internet. It knows everything about everything that's out there. And if you want to create a smart system, you have to delete all of that. You have to actually set it up so that way it doesn't know everything. It just knows what you need to know. You need to tell it where to find the information, what information it's drawing upon, and then tell it how you want it to communicate. So that way it can effectively explain the information that it's gathering for you. Now, a quick word from our sponsor, Lavanta. Hey, Kevin, tell us a little bit about it. >> That's right, Amazon sellers. Do you want to skyrocket your sales and boost your organic rankings? Meet Lavanta, Norman and I's secret weapon for driving highquality external traffic straight to our Amazon storefronts using affiliate marketing. That's right. It's achieved through direct partnerships with leading media outlets like CNN, Wire Cutter, and Buzzfeed, just to name a few, as well as top affiliates, influencers, bloggers, and media buyers, all in Lvant's marketplace, which is home to over 5,000 different creators that you get to choose from. So, are you ready to elevate your business? Visit get.lovant.io/misfits. That's get.lav lavanta l van n t a.io/misfits and book a call and you'll get up to 20% off Lavanta's gold plan today. That's get.lavont.io/misfits. And that that's first principles thinking, right? >> Yep. So, I mean, we just we just talked about this on another podcast, so I don't want to repeat too much of it here, but just for those that missed that podcast, I was just at an event, um a mastermind event, and uh one of the guys came up, he's big in the AEO space, and he said, "Look, we're going to do a little three-hour uh hands-on workshop. Everybody grab your computer or your phone, go to your favorite LLM and ask it a question about something you're trying to solve. Maybe it's in your business, maybe it's your personal life." So, I asked a question about how to get more subscribers for my my newsletter. And it came back and gave me an answer. I think I use Claude for that because that's the one I use the most. Gave me a decent answer. He said, "All right, now I want you to go uh back to Claude that knows you because that's the one that knows you the most. And I want you to upload this MD file. It's going to go through a series of questions. Uh you're going to answer those questions. If it takes too long, just tell it hurry up. Uh we don't got all day." Uh and it'll wrap it up. And then take those answers. It's going to output an empty file. took those answers and upload it with this other prompt and it's going to create a brand new MD file that's kind of like a merge of the two and then upload that back to your original claude where you asked the original question and say ask the exact same question again open a new chat attach the MD file say use this MD file and put this problem where it said use this MD file and my question is blah blah blah answer is light night and day difference night and day difference because these questions it was asking me were personal questions about me, about my thoughts, about my processes, about what's important to me. Um, and it was amazing. And then he has to do it across three different LLMs. And he said, "They're going to be slightly different cuz each one knows a little different history and whatever on you." And then use this other prompt to combine the three into one to see the commonalities. And there's there's your master master plan. It was it was brilliant. I've given Norm I don't know. I gave it to you. I don't know if you had a chance to play with it yet or not. Um, >> but did you see the same kind of results off of that? A absolutely. Um it's a whole different way of of getting a different answer, a better answer, a concise answer, you know. Um it it's it's something that I I'm going to be baking into everything. >> Yeah. So is that So do you do something? How do you do that though? I mean this guy gave us these tools and these this the prompts and stuff, but most people don't have that. So if you're I mean maybe you do it with your course or something or is there a way in layman's way because this is a little bit more advanced way to do it that you can say okay here's what you need to do to prime the pump and to actually get better results uh based on your particular situation. >> Yeah I think that one of the simplest ways and kind of kicking myself because it's really one of the best especially if someone is new to it is ask the platform that they're using. Every platform has different temperatures. They all have different response outputs and different ways of communicating with them in order to get just a little bit better of results from them. But nine times out of 10 when you're working with the platform, you can tell it. I want you to ask me questions about myself that I can answer in order to teach you how I learn best, how I communicate best, um, information about my business, and you can communicate directly with it. >> Do you need to have the memory turned on? I mean sometimes I think it's on by default in most of them, but do you have need to have memory turned on if you're going to go have it actually prompt you and do this so that it can like educate itself on you? >> Yes, I think >> or is there a specific like framework you should say, hey, following the XYZ framework, ask me uh 10 questions so that you can improve your responses to me or is there some little way to do it like that or how does that work? Yeah, that's a fantastic way and that is one of the only instances where I suggest actually using a working memory. Um, when you go ahead and train it on who you are, how you learn best, how you communicate best and then you set up either a rag knowledge base or documentation that can't be directly modified to go ahead and give it the background for the tasks that you're working on, you are able to get unbelievable results very quickly using the majority of LLMs that are out there. So, Will, just back up for a second. This is like a lot of smiling and waving, right? You go to an event and you use these terminologies and people go like this. I'm nodding my head where they really have no clue what it is. Can you explain a rag database? >> Yeah, absolutely. Um, right now with AI, it is by far the best thing that any individual can get into. There's very few people out there that are actually making them. But the way that they work to put it simply is if you want to train an AI LLM on a library of information, you wanted to know about your business, your competitors, all of their SKUs, and the information, you cannot take that document and just upload it to it. So the way rag works is you set it up with a vector-based library. So, um, like a ledger in a library where you go and you find the section and you can find the books with the information and then the AI goes into them and reads them quick enough so that way it can learn it and use it for the outputs. Very good. So, like so most people don't know how to set up a rag or vector database of their content. I mean, I have I have that for my billion-dollar cell. You can go to um BD uh you can go to ecomoracle.ai AI and it'll actually redirect you to uh my my LLM that's trained on just my data from like Nashville and my my BDSC events and my my it has the WhatsApp chat uh in there. I upload that uh periodically in there and append it with it. So it's got my entire knowledge base and you can it's a vector-based rag it's a rag it's a rag database. So but that's me doing that and there's some tools that do that but the average person is not going to do that. Uh, before we get into that, what was that shameless plug again? >> Ecomraacle.ai. Ecomracle.ai. Uh, you want me to spell it for you, Norm? E C O M O R A C L E.ai. That That's it right there. >> Oh, yeah. That's fu.com. >> Hey. Hey, it's got Dragonfish content in there, too. So, they could ask it. >> Uh, should I talk to Norm at Dragonfish or Kevin? He'll say, don't talk to Norm. talk to Kevin. >> Yeah. You know what this reminds me of? >> Train very very well. >> So this is You know what this reminds me of? Whenever I see the images that pop up and populate, it's always got Kevin and then there's a blurred image of me in the background. It reminds me of when my wife got the uh Brian uh Brian Adams tickets, takes a picture with Brian Adams and blurs me out or cuts me out. >> Hey, we're trying to make money here. Uh, so William, what do people do that that aren't going to create a WAG database of their history or their brand or whatever? Is it good enough to upload? Let me just upload if I'm take it from a business point of view, not a personal point of view. Am I going to upload my brand, my brand guide, my brand story, my should I create something? Here's three articles, blog posts that we've done that about our company. Here's our motto. Here's our mission. Here's our business plan. what what what do I do to actually at least get part of the way there and get better results? >> I would say you want to set up your core requirement documents. Um these are documents that every single business should have regardless of what industry or niche that you're working in. Um if you set up the documents correctly, then it can be used to power anything that's out there. Um you got >> requirement documents. What what are they? >> Yeah. So, um, this is actually something that I put together after over a decade of working together with a couple different individuals and we kind of figured out this is exactly what you need in order to have a successful AI trained on your business. The first is called a BKB. That's your business knowledge base. Um, that's the brain of the operation. It has your products, your pricing, your business hours, your reviews. All of the information related to your business would go into this document. The second one that you need is a be. That's the brand expert or the voice. This is to make it so that way any content that you generate sounds completely indistinguishable from your business that you already have. It doesn't sound like AI slop whatsoever. Um your style guide, which is how it looks. Um >> what what goes in the what what goes in the be? Are you >> all your brand information? So for that I >> for that we go ahead and we scan all of their social media posts um their business information, website copy, blogs, um even their own personal post on different social media platforms like LinkedIn. We scrape it down and we grab their miso, macro, and uh micro levels of speech in order to create a guide to train any AI how to sound exactly like them. >> Okay. All right. Got it. And then and that's the second one. The third one was what? >> Yep, the style guide. Um, that's exactly how you want it to look. Um, what colors your business uses, your typography, and the other stylistic assets that they have. So that way any images, videos, or development that you do is on target with your brand's image. >> Mhm. >> We have the customer personas. Arguably one of the most important things that you need to have for a business. This is exactly who you're targeting with your products. People might go ahead and say, "Oh, well, we want to target uh local business owners that are in real estate." Well, okay, but you can niche that down so much more. With the power of AI, you can go in and if I wanted to find the CEOs and the owners of every real estate agency here in Naples, Florida, I can go ahead and scrape all of their pages. I can figure out what they do for work, where they went to school, what are their pain points, what objections would they have, why they would want to come on board and work with me. And then using that information combined with the brand expert, the voice, you can create hyperargeted content that speaks to the individuals at a degree like nothing else out there right now. It's really cool. >> And is there a tool that one LM that does this best or there's a specialized tool that actually does this? I would say uh I'm trying to think of right now which is the one that I like to use. Um chat GPT55 is a new one that came out recently that I've been testing with it. And I find that where OpenAI really excels is at creating customer personas. That's actually the main reason why I use Chat GPT. Um anything else I've got other platforms that I'll use for it, but it's really good at creating a psychological profile of an individual. But that doesn't connect directly to a rag database. >> No, you would take the documentation that it finds and you would set that up as a file in the rag base. For each company that I work with, we generate anywhere from five to 40 different personas to target the different individuals for the business. >> So what rag database are you putting this in? So I I'm trying to break this down for people listening that. >> So are they creating something on chat GPTs like a little directory like here's a depository? Are they going is there a tool that references this or how how do they do that more specifically? >> I would say the best one right now is a platform called Pine Cone. It's very solid, very easy to get started. Um, if you're not a programmer and setting it up on your own and have a lot of technological knowhow, Pine Cone is the best way to go. >> So, I go to Pine Cone and I say and I set up an account and then I do what? say, "Here's here's all these five things that you just went through, the brand uh expert and the brand voice and the all this and >> yep, >> uh digest all this for me and and vectorize it." Uh and then then when I'm in chat GPT, I reference that back or what? >> Yep. >> So I say uh here's my prompt blah blah blah, but reference pine cone-ai whatever or or how does that work? >> Um it's used as a knowledge base. So the way that I like to do it is I connect it directly to my Google Drive and then I connect my Google Drive to the different agents or automations that I'm working on. And that way it helps a lot because it makes sure that all of the information in it is updated in real time as well. >> Okay. So you it's got cron jobs pulling stuff off your Google Drive and and and adjusting it. So you're not having to go to pine cone all the time. >> Exactly. It makes it's the most simple way to set it up efficiently. >> So let's do this in a step by step. So let's give like three to five action steps what you have to do. >> Yeah. Um the first thing that every business needs to do right now after watching this is build a business knowledge base. The brain of your operation, the brand expert, the voice, the style guide, how it looks, customer personas, who you want to target, and marketing pillars, which is the fifth one, which are the most valuable aspects of your business. It might be a unique product. It might be that you've been in the area for a long time or you're well established. These are what make your business stand out and unique. When you set up these five pieces of documentation, you go over to a platform like Pine Cone with the different databases that they have. You set it up, connect it to Google Drive, and then Google Drive connects very easily into your preferred LLM of choice. >> And then you just upload your these five documents that you've created. And like your avatar might just be it might be a word document with like okay we sell to this kind of customer and you're describing them in two or three paragraphs and then we also have this kind of customer and these kinds of customer and you just that's it and you just call it brand uh uh avatar avatars of xyz company and just upload that to Google and then pine code and just set figures out okay what that is and then it's got that data. >> Yep. Pretty much. >> And then when I go to write an email I go back to chat gt and I go to write an email. How do I make it reference the stuff that Pine Cone knows? Or do I write email from Pine Cone and actually connect back to OpenAI? >> Go right into the email. >> Just uh just tell it exactly what you want to do. So, as an example, if I wanted to go ahead and send an email to every business that was there at Ecom Mastery, I can go ahead and tell it, great, I want you to go ahead and write an email for the different business owners and technology leaders that were there. and it'll go ahead and reference the exact businesses that were there. It'll look at their information, um, scrape the social media profiles for the individuals and then it'll cross reference with the brand expert document and our business knowledge base to create custom messaging for every one of them that is completely indistinguishable from anything created by AI. So, and so you're telling actually, but this is a full automation sequence, but are is Claude Co uh doing this and it's actually tied into Sing Grid and sending these emails on your behalf? Uh, so there's a whole setup process here that we're we're kind of like glossing over. >> Oh, I just meant for uh creating the emails. My bad. >> Okay. All right. So, yeah, I don't know if this is getting too technical. >> No problem. >> You know, maybe we should just go on to some other thing. That's just my opinion, but I I don't want to have like all the people just with a smile and wave. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Some Sometimes, yeah, sometimes the technical though it helps to uh to explain it to people because they're they they want to learn, but yeah, it might be uh some people listening might be like, "Ah, just give me the sexy stuff." Um >> Yeah. Well, that would be you then. Of course. >> That would be me always. Dancing girls are always better than dancing gnomes. So why don't we talk about like we talked at the event in Nashville a lot about automations and what you've done. So are you seeing any different patterns uh that sellers or businesses should be using? Um, yeah. I I think that lately with some of the new platforms that have been coming out, there are a lot of things that individuals who set up automations should be doing and they aren't doing it because of it. They're not getting good workflows and unless they adapt to it, they won't be able to generate high quality automations. >> And that's what we started talking about at the very beginning. So, um I guess that goes right into what we were just talking about, making sure that you have the right um information in the system, correct? >> Yeah. >> Yep. That's one thing for sure. >> Now, what happens if people feel overwhelmed about this? Like what what can they do? It's something that's definitely complicated, but one of the things that I really like to teach with AI mindset is that you don't need to know how to do it as long as you know how to communicate clearly and work with the different platforms that you're already using. You can have them teach you just about anything that you could want to learn in a way that's best tailored for you and your learning style. >> Yeah. Because you can ask the AI, "How do I do something?" I mean, you can you can I mean, I we use that a lot. I use that a lot now. If I get stuck on something on screenshots, it's like, "How do I how do I fix this problem or how this is the error code I'm getting? What do I do?" And nine times out of 10, it actually gives me good advice on actually how to fix that. Um, so you can actually self- teach yourself, self pace and self teach yourself by using the AI to build out. If you can, what's that word? If you can uh imagine it, you can build it. >> Yep. One of my uh favorite quotes that I always say is the only limit to your reality, your reality is your autom is a is your imagination, not your automations. >> So, what about people though that can't do that? There's there's people out there that there, you know, there's creative people and then there's there's they always say there's creative people that can create and be a great artist and great whatever. in my line. Go ahead. >> They're not numbers. They're not numbers people. They're not technical people. And usually those two don't cross. They're two different uh people. But occasionally you get someone that's both. And they they typically have an advantage in life. But what so what about those people that aren't creative and don't know how to guide it like you said and tell it what you want? What how can they overcome that or or fill that gap? >> Yeah. So I feel like uh in the example of creative people um I I don't think that they have the inability to learn it. I think they just need to be taught about it the right way. And what I mean by that is if you want to learn coding right now, nine times out of 10 you're going to go ahead and get a coding book and you're going to sit there and look at it until your eyes are watering. And that has been more or less the only way to learn this, especially when I was getting started. But now with where technology is at, if you're a creative individual, you can communicate with the AI to teach it how you learn best. And then once you know exactly what you want to learn, you can tell it and it will go and it'll watch hundreds of different YouTube videos and scan blogs and different courses out there and teach it to you the way that you receive that information. >> So for Norm, it would be like those flash cards with like three letters per card. Yeah. >> And one word per card. >> Yeah. F you, Kevin. >> So, so what about on the flip side though, the technical people that aren't creative? How do they get a creative mind to actually guide or or a creative process to actually guide this? Is it the same way? Just ask the AI. >> Yep. Well, I wouldn't say just ask the AI, but more importantly, um, teach the AI. Teach the AI about yourself. teach it about how you learn. I'm a very technical person myself. When it comes to front end and UI and all of that, I cannot stand it. I could do a really great job because I built something that can go ahead and assist me and help me out that knows it way better than I ever will, but if I need to learn something design related, I just have it do the research, learn the best of the best knowledge, and then teach it to me in the way that I learn best. I mean, that's that's a a great way of of putting it. So, if you're creative, it'll teach you in a creative way how to be technical. >> Yep. Yep. Like with the canvases, a lot of people who work with AI don't use canvas at all. And I think that it is one of the best things that's out there. Getting able to just lay everything out and view exactly what I'm working on in one section without having to scroll up and go through a thousand different chats. That to me is invaluable. Without it, I wouldn't be able to learn this anywhere near as well. And the only reason why I learned about it is because an agent recommended it to me because it knows how I learn. >> So, what for those that listening that never heard of Canvas, like you said, most people haven't. What What is it? >> It's a option that a lot of different LLMs out there have to just change the output structure. Instead of it being pure text and running through long conversations and just paragraphs after paragraphs of information, it might generate a graphic. It might go ahead and create um little bubbles with the information in it. It just lays it out in a different way to where if you have difficulty sitting there and looking at thousands of lines of text, it's a way of uh learning a bit differently. >> And it it does eventually pick up on that, right? So, like I'll notice in my prompts, uh, it'll come back, it'll format it certain ways, and then it might show a couple of pictures. So, it knows that I'm more creative than technical. >> Yep. >> Yes. >> Normally, worth a thousand words. >> You should see the pictures I got at Kevin. >> Did you ask the AI for those? They might be. >> Uh, yes. Yes, I did. >> Might be hallucinating. I'm just kidding. You never know. So, so, so yeah, AI, I mean they say that a lot of the coursework and I mean like you just came to the event in in Nashville and there's a lot of people they're saying that you know that kind of thing is going away. Um, people do want that human interaction. So, that's the saving grace and the experience part of it. But to go to learn somewhere at a conference or to buy someone's $2,000 course online, uh, a lot of that business is getting upended right now. still people doing it, but they're they're a lot of them are struggling. Um, so what what do you see happening there? Do you think that business that that genre is going to kind of fade away and it'll just be the occasional one or or do you think it's going to adapt and change and become more interactive and like what you said, people are going to adapt it to where it's the learning style of the person? Because as you know, most people that take a course or most people that watch some of the talks in Nashville, they're never going to take action on any of it >> uh or and they're never going to finish it uh for the most part. So, how is that how's AI affecting all that? >> I think that AI is affecting it tremendously. Um, right now with the events, I feel like the main reason why people go to them, myself included, is for the communities and the people that you're able to meet. Um, the connections that you're able to build and just the opportunity to connect with other people who are living, eating, and breathing what you're doing. because, you know, doing what we do, you don't meet a lot of people that you can have a good conversation with about it. Um, I think that the events that aren't really bringing something stellar to it, and I'm not just talking about um an individual that they go ahead and hire to speak for 30 minutes and they give an amazing job, but then everything else is kind of average. I'm talking about the events that really work on fostering the community and really bringing people together for multiple different events or not events um activities and stuff like that. I think that those are the events that'll really start doing well in the future, the ones that promote the community as opposed to solely focusing on the educational aspect. >> And that's what humans always want is that community. So, uh I've got a question about uh if companies like should companies avoid doing any form of automation just too early? >> No, no, no. I think the exact opposite. I think that the best time to start laying the foundations for what you're building is when you're still at the base. And so for the um automation, where should they start or should they just lay it out sort of on a task board and then start at what they're doing most often? >> Yeah, I would say the first step is to generate the documentation that I messaged or mentioned before. Um once they have that documentation, they really need to focus on what are their goals with the business. Um, I'm not the type of person, I don't like planning a week ahead or two weeks ahead or a month. I like if I'm starting a business, I'm looking, okay, how am I going to exit? How am I going to grow this? Where do I want it to be in two years, three years? And then working from that approach as opposed to just uh going with the flow week by week, I guess you could say. >> And I think another area that we've got to touch on too is the difference between automation, a workflow, and an AI agent. I there's probably a lot of people that don't understand that. Can you just give us a a quick uh review of that? >> Sure. So, an agent is uh your employee basically. An agent is really good at one specific task and you need to train it to be good at that specific task. An automation is when you take multiple of these employees and you set them up in a sequence so that way they're able to build off of each other's tasks. And a workflow is when you have your managers that you would communicate with. You can communicate to three or four managers at a time and they might have 40 agents working under them and then they can assign the tasks that way. >> Hey Kev, have you ever felt trapped running a business or just burnt out? >> Yeah, that's happened a time or two. Um, how how would I find out if what I have is actually worth something if I'm looking to to exit? >> Well, I think one of the best things they could probably do is go to an expert that understands the market sentiment right now. First one that comes to mind is is Quiet Brokerage. And here's why. They're going to build you up. They're going to understand your company. And at the end of the day, you're going to know how to maximize your valuation. So, the very first thing you need to do is go and get your free confidential evaluation at quietite.com and then, you know, let the games begin. >> Awesome. What What was that website again? >> It's quiet.com. Awesome. I'm going to head over there. >> So, what So, how many what is you think is the optimal amount of humans to agents ratio? I mean, I know it's going to vary a little bit, but if you just had to make a general statement going forward where you had a company that had 50 employees and they're going to start employing agents and agentic workflows and some automations and stuff where they can eliminate some of those people, what do you think is going to be a nice ratio? Is it one one human to five agents, one human to 10 agents? Uh, is there going to be this billion-dollar company uh with one person? I I think there's a two built two person one now, but there's a little fudging on that. Um but uh so that's not quite true. But what where is this going and what's what's what's going to be optimal? What should people people be thinking about preparing for? >> Yeah. Um I think that right now um I would say 1 to 10 is a pretty good ratio. Um for every one employee, you have about 10 different agents, but it can be more, it can be less. If it's someone whose job is to answer the phone and give directions to the location, well then that could be taken care of with one agent. If it's a lawyer who has a 100 different processes that they work through every single day, then they could use a 100. It's very variable, but I would say 10 is a pretty good number to start. >> And each agent has its own task. So, I don't have an agent that's that's doing my phone calls and is also doing my my product research. Uh, right. That you want them specialized in one thing. You don't want them to be trained, cross-trained, right? >> Yes. Yes. Correct. >> And why is that? >> It's because uh you don't want it to have too much information. If uh you give it more than it needs, then it'll increase the chance of hallucinations. It'll increase the chance of errors and it'll make it so that way it isn't as good at that one task as you need it to be. >> So what when someone's creating an agent, what are they doing? So if people are listening say, "Yeah, okay. I I know, but I'm I I don't know how to set up open claw or all these geeky things. What is what exactly is at its core level the very basic agent? Is that just going and creating telling cloud code, okay, I want you to uh I want you to create a job that actually checks my email at 8 a.m. every morning and sorts them into this and it saves that or what what is it? What in layman's terms, how do I how do I make an agent? There's only three things that you need. That's it. You need the knowledge base or the background prompt. This is the information that you give it. It might be um your job is to be a internet marketer. Your name is Norm. You have 45 years of experience working in this specific industry. Um this is the information about our business. This is what your main goal is. This is what we don't want you to do. That would be the background um knowledge for it. The task is what you want it to do. And then the output example is what's an example of how you want the output to be structured. So you give it the brain, you give it the job, and you tell it how you want it to do that job. >> When you give when you say give it, what am I giving? Am I putting a prompt in chat GBT? Am I saving it saving a a file and calling it MD? What am I doing? >> Yeah, it's a textbased background. You could upload it as a file. Um some platforms out there you can go and actually just type it in directly. Um there's a couple different ways. It would depend on the platform that they're using. >> So let's just let's just take uh Claude for example. And Claude's pretty straightforward. You go in, you create a project, you add the instructions that you've been given from another prompt, right? So it's just uh MD format. You put it in there and then you can either create a skill or start asking uh questions within the project. >> Yep. >> I mean that's at at the core of it. That's as easy as it comes, right? >> Yep. And that's exactly what an agent is. It's basically just a skill on Claude. and and then you go into co-work and you just refer back to project whatever the project is just to ensure that co-work's on track. >> Yep. >> And then if you wanted to automate that you can make a manager for it. >> And then you can go to cloud code or cloud co-work or or perplexity computer and you can start really doing a lot of agentic stuff, right? >> Yep. Yep. Yep. So, what are you what are your what's in your tool set? What are your favorite AI tools? Like, if you had to say these are the five that I'm using all the time, what what are those five? >> Oh man, that is a really big question because I use about 40 tools in my dayto-day. Um, I'm going to try and think of ones that you guys might not have heard of before, but ones that provide me immense value. Um, I would say number one, and it's a very, very simple one, is gobble.bot. That's it. >> Gobble.bot. >> No. What's gobbleot? >> It has, and I'll give you guys the chance to go ahead and take a look at the website because I think that it has the single best UI out of any website that I've ever been to. But the way it works is there are no tokens, no credits. All you do is you upload a video, websites, documents, and it takes all of that information, scrapes it, and turns it into a optimized agent for you. So if you have a business right now, you can go and completely for free, you copy the URL, you click in the Gobble Bot's mouth, you paste it in and click gobble and in about depending on the size of your website, maybe two to 30 minutes, um you have a exportable document you can plug right into chat GBT or claude or whatever platform you use and that is your business knowledge base. >> So that's that take that's the five things that you did earlier. That's one of them. >> Oh, that's the top one. The go the Okay. Is this similar to your website, Kev? >> Oh, with a happy face. >> No. Gobble it. >> Gobble it. >> Pretty cool, isn't it? >> That's That's cool. I'll have to check that out. Um, >> that that's cool. All right, that's that's one. Okay, tell us four more that Norm and I are going to be impressed with. >> All right, that one is fantastic. Um, second one. >> Wait, wait, what back on this one? Let's give it one good use case. Uh, like you per real life. I mean, you said, "Yeah, it'll put in a URL, it'll create your thing." But can you give me a real life example of how you use this? >> Um, anytime that a business comes on board and we're doing some work with them, the very first thing that I do is I grab their URL, I put it into it, and gobble it. And that allows me to put it into an LLM and get a full overview about it very quickly. That's cool. Okay. Awesome. >> It's fantastic for pre-intelligence. It is fantastic for structuring, figuring out style guides, all of that information. It's all It's It's a very cool tool. It's very simple. It has pretty much one use case, but it does it better than anybody else. And it's completely free. >> Do you know who's do what the back end of it is? What's powering it? >> I don't know off the top of my head. >> Okay. I was just curious. Okay, cool. So, all right. Number two. >> All right. Number two, I would say um po.com. >> Oh, po. Yeah, >> love po. >> And why why po? I'm familiar with it, but just for the audience, why why po? >> So, with what I do with building automations, one of the biggest things that I have to do and I feel is my responsibility is to make sure that every single module or agent that I set up is working the best that it could be. Nine times out of 10, if you have someone building an automation, they're going to go into it and just select whichever LLM they've heard of, or oh, this one's the latest and greatest. I'll go ahead and pick that one. When that is the complete wrong way to go about it on PO, you can go and in one chat, you can have a conversation with 40 different LLMs. And if you give it the prompt that you want it to work on, you can compare how long it takes, the output structure, and the cost for it all in one go in one spot. And you don't have to have any subscriptions to any of those platforms at all. So that way you can then take those results, feed them into a platform like Claude, have it analyze them and give you the exact recommendations for which agents to use at every step of your workflow. >> So po.com basically takes whatever your issue is or whatever your thing is and figures out what to which ones are the best to address these particular problems and goes out and does that. And so rather than just sticking with one, it goes out and figures, oh, he needs this image, he needs this, this is the best research for restaurants or whatever it is, and then it pulls it all together. >> Yep. >> Right. Am I am I explaining that correctly? >> Yep. 100%. You got it. So now uh keeping on track with this, I do something similar to keep my session usage time uh with Claude. What I'll do is I'll go to Perplexity and I'll use Claude, get the same information from it, like all these different tasks and then I can go back to Claude and do whatever I want with it and just keep it with the major tasks so I can keep my sessions uh open. >> Yeah. you know, not waste not waste of tokens. And it works really, really well because on Perplexity, if you've got Perplexity Pro, you have all these different models that you could work with. But typically what I'll do is I'll just stick with Claude um because it chomps through tokens so quickly. And I can use Sonnet, you know, the the latest version of Sonnet, which is great. >> Yep. Yep. And to further uh your point that you were making, if you were going ahead and setting up an automation where you wanted to use Claude as the example, nine times out of 10 when people look at that, they'll go ahead and select the newest and the best one. >> However, something like Sonic is an amazing tool. It is such a great LLM and it cost quite literally like a quarter of the price, I think, >> and it gives better results and it's actually quicker than Opus. Yeah, >> Opus is better for like deep research and stuff, right? And complex more complex stuff. >> Yeah, if uh you're working on something and my rule of thumb, if it's something that you could figure out how to do yourself in less than an hour, go ahead and use Sonnet. If it's something that would take you more than an hour to figure out how to do it yourself, use Opus every time. So what about like when Chad GBT they kept the old models you know there's four and light and this and that and they kept them active for a while and then I think it was Chad GBG 5 or was it 5.1 they said we're combining them all into one and now this one will figure out and it'll actually use the right infrastructure underneath and then people were bitching saying this sucks and they kind of backtracked on that but now with 5.5 is it have they kind of figured that out on on open and chatg 5.5 or is it still there's cases where you should go back and use CHED 4.5 or I don't even know if it's still available but stuff like that. >> Oh yeah, absolutely. There are tons of instances when you should go back and use the previous iterations. And one thing about PO that's cool is that it has all of the previous iterations as well as an API key that you can connect directly to them which is pretty cool. Um >> it says here on PO right now it doesn't have 5.5. It says GPT 5.4. So, do they not have I'm looking at their website right as we're speaking right now. Does that mean it doesn't have the latest? It only goes back. Um, >> they're pretty quick at getting the latest and the greatest on there. Um, sometimes it does take a little while. Um, one thing is, uh, it was actually built by Kora, the question and answer site that everybody's plopped on to once or twice at least. >> Yep. >> And they spent a lot a lot of money to aggregate all of the different platforms together. So, they have the financial backing to go ahead and get the latest and greatest LLM platforms on there, but sometimes it might take a week or two weeks. Um, what I care about on it though are actually the old platforms because I think that they're a lot more valuable. >> Okay, so what's number three? >> Number three, >> um, number three, let's go ahead and say mine pal. Mal. >> Yeah, Minepal. Yeah, this is kind of like a flowchart um tool like it mine. Yeah, I know. Uh um Molly Mahoney is big on Mind Palorm. >> Okay. >> So, yes. Um but go ahead and explain it. Uh William. >> Yeah. So, Minepal is a L3 development platform. Um they have automations, they have agents, knowledge bases, MCPs, and API connections. But what makes it really unique is that they have what's called Mindi, which is the little AI assistant that it has. You can go to Mindy and say, I want to build a automation that does research on 500 different or um that does research on uh real estate businesses in whatever location I select. And I want you to get the names, the phone numbers, the contact info, and a quick overview about their business. And then I want it to be outputed into a Google sheet. And it says, "Okay, that sounds great." And two minutes later, it has a complete workflow built where all you have to do is plug in some very basic information, but it'll build workflows for you like that. It's very, very cool. You can modify >> the what what's the website? >> Minepal.space. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Minepal.space. And actually Molly's quoted on the top of it. Coincidentally, I just said that. I had no idea. >> That's funny. It was uh when it first came out, I was on it a lot. Um I don't use it too much anymore because I prefer to build them myself, but for anybody who's new to agents or automations, it is a fantastic platform. Some cool things that you can do, uh you can put a payment link directly into it. So at any stage of the workflow, it can go ahead and collect payment that's connected to your Stripe account. You can also get iframes where you can have it live on your website in about two clicks. So if you have an idea for a SAS product that's more or less a simple automation that you can market really well, you can go build it in 2 minutes, take that iframe, put it on your website, connect the payment directly to the workflow, and you're done like that. >> That's really cool. >> It's very cool. >> That's really that's that's very very powerful. >> Yes. for a lot of people that have the ideas but they don't know how to build them and they don't know where to go to get them built. Um it's a great place to go and test it out. >> So how is this different than like if I just went to Lovable? Like my masseuse last night uh she told me like yeah I just built a little uh booking app or something uh with Lovable and she's never used it before. She just talked into it and it built her a little booking app and she was all proud about it. How how is something like Minepal different than vibe coding something else or is that what it's basically doing? >> It's basically what it does but it doesn't do websites. It does automations and agents. >> So automations and agents only. Okay. >> Yes. >> Okay. And where do those live? They have they live on like so >> on the bind file platform. Okay. So that some sub subdirectory or do or or something. Okay. >> Yep. >> All right. That's three. So, we got two more good ones to go. What? If you need to check, you can check your phone. Check your bookmarks if you need to toggle your memory there or anything. >> Yeah. Actually, I'm going to switch on to my phone real quick if that's all right. Laptop's getting a little low. >> Yeah. >> All righty. Cool. One second. Uh, okay. There we go. Now I got the list in front of me. >> So, um, platform number four, right? >> Yeah, number four. >> All right. I would say um just because it is truly the best one out there for this um Higsfield. I'm sure you guys have heard Higsfield many times before. >> I'm sure it's been mentioned on here a lot, but it is just such a great platform for image, video, and audio generation. >> Um >> it's great. They also have Higsfield Cloud, so you can get an API connected to it as well that a lot of people don't utilize. Mhm. >> There are tons of things that you could do on it that just kind of take it above the other platforms that are out there right now. >> So, his field is a is an image video image and video creation platform that actually ties in to all the other ones out there. So, you can the same thing like what we're talking about. Po goes and figures out what's the best for doing certain things. Basically, Higsfield does that for images and video and it has a lot of really cool stitching. I actually used it to create some uh some videos for Nashville. I don't know if you saw a video back in like February where it was me standing on stage. Uh we had so we had a picture of the ecom mastery stage an AI picture of how of it being rendered uh in AI and then I took a my LinkedIn headsh shot and I said put me standing on stage with a microphone and then I took the head shot of five of the speakers including Norm from LinkedIn and I said okay make it to where Norm walks to the stage and I I pat him on the back and then um he waves and he walks off and at the same time Athena is walking on the stage and I give her a hug. Uh, and it did these all these transitions and then I I did 8-second videos and then I just had to stitch them together. And you you make the first frame the the last frame the the same as the first frame or the next or whichever it is you make the as long as you do the framing right at the end in the beginning it stitches seamlessly together. Uh, and it so it made like a 30 second video of five or six people walking up on stage and me congratulating them or shaking their hand or patting them on the back and then off to the stage all from five LinkedIn head shot and one rendering of the stage. Um, that that it took me probably an hour, hour and a half to do that and that's because I was trying to I never used Hixfield. I was figuring out but that's the power of some of this stuff and it's a really cool little video. But then I just set it useo to actually create a little music to it and set it to met music and then I got a lot of comments on that and it it definitely stopped a lot of people on the scroll. Uh so that's that's the power just an example there of Hicksville. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It is truly an awesome platform and shout out for uh knowing Sunno. I have my 10 free generations every day and I make 10 free songs every day. I love it. >> Yeah, Sunno Sunno is is awesome. Um, we actually created a soundtrack to my last event, Market Masters in Sunno. Um, it's the whole soundtrack for the whole video. So, it's it's pretty cool. >> That's fascinating. I didn't know that. >> So, uh, for Hicksfield, uh, anything else we should know about Hicksville? >> I would say >> I've only used it for video. Is it good at images, too? >> Oh, yeah. And, uh, right now, if I don't know if the promotion is still going, I know it was about two weeks ago. Um, if you set up with a account on it, you get unlimited generations with Nano Banana. So, it's 20 bucks a month, but you get unlimited images that you can go ahead and generate with it for free. Well, free, but >> yeah, >> it's a pretty cool uh pretty cool little process. >> Cool. >> Yep. And what you were saying about the start frame, end frames, that is by far one of the best uh pieces of advice that anyone can use, especially with the Cedar 2.0, know, which is by far leaps and bounds my favorite platform out there right now for generating videos. If you set it up so that way you tell it exactly what you want to start with, end with, generate it as a 58 second clip, and then you generate a second one that uses the end frame as the start frame, like Kevin was saying, you can piece them together and make a video as long as you want, and it's going to be great every time if you use the right images. >> Yeah, you got to capture that exact last sec, that millisecond frame. if you capture like if you're doing a screenshot or something or you don't you don't it's slightly off there'll be a little jerk >> uh when it stitches them together. So, as as long as you actually truly capture that very last frame because it's 30 frames per second. >> So, you got to go into um I don't know if Higsfield did this and capture that frame. If I had to take that out into an editor, I can't remember exactly what I which way I did it, but you make sure you scroll all the way to the right or all the way to the left and capture that very first of the 30 frames per second. um to make that that work seamlessly. So, Sea Dance. See, you said Cadream or Seance? >> See? >> See, is that a Chinese one? >> Uh it was actually developed by Tik Tok, believe it or not. >> Turns out >> all the people on the Tik Tok platform that have been going ahead and making videos and publishing them, not too much of a surprise, but that was used to train the best video generation platform on the market right now. Well, best uh generation agent, I should say. So Cream is it's an editor or it's an agent or it's a I I'm not familiar with Cream. >> It's a model. >> It's a model. >> My lost word. My bad. >> You said 2.0 or five. I see 5.0. >> 2.0. >> 2.0. >> Yep. They have it on Hicksfield. >> Oh, so it's an I see C. Am I spelling right? See E dream. >> Yeah. Not like sea like the ocean but like I'm going to see >> no seed like Yeah. >> Cream. >> Yeah. So I see Cream 4.5 AI image model. >> That's under images. You have to go to video. >> Okay. >> And you'll see Cream. So S E and it's 5.0. >> Okay. Cream 2.0 AI video. I found it now at openart.ai. Okay. All right. All right. >> You're going to have a lot of >> We actually uh Can I make Can I make videos? Can I make videos of Norm dancing with a shirt off? >> Yeah. Yeah. Just uh make sure >> swing swaying in the air. >> The wind him juggling cigars like lit cigars like five cigars in the air and put them in his mouth and then like >> I do that anyway. Yeah. He doesn't love the game. >> Well, when you're doing a video or Kev, could you not use the command for a transaction? Uh, a transition, fade in, fade out, half a second, quarter second to stitch everything together. So, you've got that brief black fade in, fade out. You don't even notice it like it's a microscond. I tried that when I did the Hicksfield one and it it was a little you could tell there's like a little hiccup. I mean, it'll work. depends on the motion, how much motion there is and how much there's you could definitely do it if there's no motion. >> Okay. >> Um, but if there's motion, it it it's hard to do that. I mean, I did that with with from the Nashville event that William was at. There was 177 testimonial videos. Uh, and some of these were like 30 seconds, some of them were like five minutes. I'm like, there's no way I'm going to sit here and watch 177 of these things. So, I just actually I use Claude Co-work. Uh, I I went into Syna, downloaded them all as MP4s or whatever they were and said and put them in a folder and said, "Go watch all these." Uh, and actually, I'm looking for these types of quotes and these types of comments. Grab them out, tell me who it was, uh, make me a master list. I'll go through and I'll say, "Okay, this quote, this quote." So, it made me a master list of like the top 100 quotes. And I went through and I just said, "Okay, number one, 7, 13, 14, 17, 20, 22. Make me a video uh, of all these people saying this stuff back to back." back and so it made the video and then to your point Norm it said okay I added a I don't know what it was a half second uh buffer in between each one and at the end of each one uh to to make segways and transitions and it was it's janky so I actually went in and I told it take that out and it still was a little janky so I had to take it into um my local editor um I think um whatever I was using locally I think I it was uh what was I using locally um anyway it doesn't matter Um, and I had to just fine-tune it myself, you know, for 10 minutes and just like kind of take a few frames out and and squeeze them together. But that that did 172 videos. I probably could use Higsfield Cra probably been better. Um, but that made it it made a testimonial reel of three and a half minutes really fast. >> Hey, Kevin King and Norm Ferrar here. If you've been enjoying this episode of Marketing Misfits, thanks for listening this far. Continue listening. We got some more valuable stuff coming up. Be sure to hit that subscribe button if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast player. Or if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify, make sure you subscribe to our channel because you don't want to miss a single episode of The Marketing Misfits. Have you subscribed yet, Norm? >> Well, this is an old guy alert. Should I subscribe to my own podcast? >> Yeah, but what if you forget to show up one time? It's just me on here. You're not going to know what I say. >> I'll I'll buy you a beard and you can sit in my chair, too. We'll just you can go back and forth with one another. Yikes. But that being said, don't forget to subscribe, share it. Oh, and if you really like this content, somewhere up there there's a banner. Click on it and you'll go to another episode of the Marketing Misfits. >> Make sure you don't miss a single episode because you don't want to be like Norm. All right. Uh, number five, William. >> Okay. So, we have Gobble, we have Higsfield, Poe, Mine Pal. Last one I'm going to go ahead and share is um, can I share one that I've been working on? >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Is it is it available to the public? >> Be available in about a week and a half. >> Okay. Sure. >> Cool. Uh, orchestra. >> Orchestra. >> Yep. It is about 400 different tool calls, 23 different managers looking over about 700 different agents. Um, the way it works is it chooses between the best LLMs for the task and the best prompting practices. So, you can go to it and say, I want to build a real estate business in Naples, Florida. I want you to design my website. I want you to gather all the documentation, competitive intelligence, create a list of ads with a thousand budget to go ahead and get customers and create a email marketing campaign. And it says, "Okay, great." And it goes through, it assigns it to the different sections that it has for the managers. The managers take it and assign it to about 700 different agents. And it has a canvas at the end where all of the results are aggregated, uploaded, and it does everything that you ask it to do. It makes the best prompt, chooses the best LLMs to go ahead and work on them, and it does it all in parallel with each other. It's pretty cool. I've been working on it for about four years. >> Is that orchestra >> orchestra? What's the website? I mean, this won't come out for a few weeks, so by the time this comes out, um, it should be live. What's the website address? >> Yeah, it's going to be with uh Brands 10x. >> Oh, with Brands 10X. Okay. So, go to Brands 10X to get it. >> Yep. >> Okay. Cool. >> Yep. That's something that we're doing and I think that we're going to be doing some nice little special. Um, someone's coming on from this, we could absolutely talk about doing something cool for them. >> Cool. So, if they go to brands10x.com, uh, they'll be able to find information on it there. >> Yep. >> All right. Very good. >> Been a big project to love. >> So, we are at the top of the hour, Kev. >> Yep. >> This has been great. I appreciate uh you providing some really cool value. I think people are going to love this. Uh what what's the best way if people want to reach you? Is it to go to Brands10X and find out orchestra? Is it follow you? You said you don't use social. >> I have a small Instagram account, but besides that I try and stay off of social media, but if you want my Instagram is Willpowered AI. >> Willpowered AAI. Is that the best way for someone will you actually check that if someone listening to this like, dude, I want to hire this guy. I want to find out more. That's you will actually see that there. >> Yep. willpowered AI or brandx.com. You could find me at either of them. Uh about 25 hours a day, eight days a week. >> Ah, very good. >> I like that. 200 hours a week. He's uh more than 144. So, he's got some magical powers there. >> Yeah, he gets up a half hour before he gets to bed. >> Yeah, it's it's uh you know, you do what you got to do. But >> So, last question. So, at the end of every podcast, we always ask our misfit, "Do they know a misfit?" >> I do. I do know a misfit, and I believe that he is someone who both of you know, I would highly recommend if you want to reach out to Jamon Orvig and get him on here, I know he would love it. >> Awesome. Very good. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on. >> My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. >> Yeah. Anytime you want to wear that shirt, you can come back on. Oh, >> when's your uh when's your next event? I'll wear it there. >> Uh it's Market Masters uh in August in Austin. August 20th to the 24th in Austin. I think I think your buddy uh from Brandon Next, I think he actually already has a ticket to come. I think he's going to he wants to do the hot seat. I think >> I've already got my ticket as well. So, anybody who's watching, if they want to talk to me in person, I'll be there as well. >> Awesome. >> Perfect. >> Cool, man. >> All right. Well, we'll see you later. >> Thank you so much. I'm going to go enjoy a cigar now. >> Perfect. >> Do it, man. >> All righty. All right. >> Oh. >> Oops. >> I let the wrong guy go. There we go. >> That was cool. That was great. Um, maybe a little technical there at the beginning, but I was trying to trying to get some people that are listening like some practical like hands-on that didn't didn't explain, but then uh pivoting to the tools and those are some good tools. Yeah, they they they were and I don't think a lot of people are using those. >> No, I mean I'd heard of a couple of them, but uh there's one that definitely going to go into my stack and test that uh tonight >> for sure and see how that we can help dragonfish with that. >> Uh for for sure. Uh but that this is why, you know, you always bring on guests cuz you different perspectives, different angles, different things. And um you you never know, you know, he listed off five tools there. Everybody shouldn't be should not be going and trying all five of those tools. Pick the one that's or two that's going to actually make a difference for you. What what can you apply? It's not just because it's a cool tool, you should go use it. It's what can you apply to your situation in your business. Kind of like what he said at the beginning, you know, laying out your little road map, laying out your little plan of what are you trying to achieve and then match the tools to that. Not just because it's a cool tool and everybody's talking about it doesn't mean you should use it. Um, but what you should do is you should be watching every episode of the Marketing Misfits because every episode of the Marketing Misfits, you're going to find a tool or if you don't find a tool, you're going to see Norm. It's kind of like a tool. >> Yeah. >> Or the tool. >> So, if you want to do that, it's at marketingmisfits.co, not.com, uh,.co. And you can check out the latest episodes every Tuesday, brand new episode. And then marketingmisfitsmisfits.news. news. There's a brand new episode uh of the newsletter uh that comes out every single Wednesday there. And if they want to watch us, Norm, they want to like put us on their big screen TV and show their family like, "Look, these these two cool guys, the Misfits, this is what I listen to all the time." How do they do that? All they have to do is go to YouTube. If they want the actual podcast itself, uh or the stream, uh you can watch it on Marketing Misfits podcast. If you want the shorter version, the clips that are 3 minutes or less, it's marketing misfits clips. That's right. We'll be back next Tuesday with another episode. So, hit that subscribe button, hit that like button, follow us, do whatever you got to do. Don't miss it cuz you'll be missing some amazing stuff. All right, everybody. Until next Tuesday. See you. >> Ciao.