Why Nobody Trusts Your Brand Anymore (And How To Fix It)

getting started with a personal brand or even just a brand in general. What advice can you give somebody who has no audience? >> We get to start. You get to choose where do I want to start? What does that look like for me? Well, if you're going to be online, you can have a LinkedIn profile, which is obviously what I would recommend to any person that's a career professional with over a billion people on the platform. I would start tagging in the companies you've worked for, all opportunities to start getting that audience. And I just spoke at an event in uh Seattle a couple weeks ago. Someone came up to me afterwards at the bar and we were just chatting. He said, "Yeah, I was just talking to this fellow over here and he asked me, "Is Kevin authentic?" Because he seems like a really good guy, but there's that question because there's so much, like you said, BS marketing and so much out there. He wanted to just double check to make sure, you know, he wasn't being led down a path or something. That was in person. So, how do you overcome that in a digital space, that authenticity and that trust around building your personal or your business brand? You're watching Marketing Misfits with Norm Ferrar and Kevin K. The beard guy, Mr. Ferrar. How are you, man? How you doing? >> Hey, Mr. Mafioso with those glasses. You look like the guy from >> from Sopranos, you know. >> Hey, I'm trying to be like the cool kids, you know. Got got some little thick glasses here. >> Ah, okay. >> Yeah. You know, it's all it's part of the branding. It's all part of the branding. You know, that personal branding. I get, you know, wearing the right glasses, it changes the mood. It changes the look and changes how people just like a beard, Norm. It's like a beard. Isn't that beard? You created that as part of a personal branding as a deliberate move, right? >> Y 100%. >> Like 10 years ago or almost or something around that. Yep. You're and now you even have with your other podcasts you call them, you know, the nickname of the the fan the fan boys and girls is beardos even if they don't have a beard. >> Beardos beard nation >> beard nation. So that personal branding is something that is huge and that's what we're going to be I think talking about today. Not I think we are going to be talking about with our guest today who's one of the top personal branding people out there. I mean, she's she's crushed it with companies like Microsoft and um with a company called Standout Authority. And in today's world, personal branding and is more important than ever. And you know why that is, Norm? >> Why is that, Kev? >> Oh, it's because of AI and AEO. You know, that thing that Dragonfish does. Uh it helps people with AEO now getting getting recognized in uh answer engines like Perplexity and Chat GBT and Gemini. A personal brand is critical. Uh remember we had Cassm on the podcast back uh in in the summer and he was talking about how every company needs to have not every person but also every company needs to basically have a a personal brand and and I think uh I think we're going to learn something in day about how to do that uh from our guest. Yeah. But before that I'm still thinking about getting you for your next birthday. Your next birthday I'm going to be with you. I already know uh we'll be at the big smoke. But how about a 1980s mafioso tracksuit? >> And that would be good. Give me a bright red color. A bright color >> with make sure it's high, you know, high on my so you can see my socks. Uh stuff. So that would that that would be perfect. >> And Birkenstocks. >> Birk and Birkenstock. >> All right. Okay. >> If you see me wearing that with the in a mafia suit, you need to run the other way. All right. So, on that note, let's bring in Rachel. >> Let's do it. >> Okay. Hey, Rachel. >> Hey, guys. >> Hi, Rachel. How you doing? >> Great. I'm wearing Birkenstocks. Is that okay? >> Oh, you're okay. It's just me. It's It's my personal branding. >> I don't want to see my toes, you know. >> Yes, I appreciate that. Nobody wants some ugly toes. Nobody wants that, >> you know. I I I'm one of those guys that had never had a a a petty Manny in my life. And it wasn't against it, but my ex-wife the first one of the first trips we took, it's one of the first times I had met her actually. I'd met her and then we took a trip together. Um and we were in Brazil and she I was wearing some sort of sandals to the beach and she's like, "Uhuh. Uh-uh. We're going to the nail place right now and you're getting this fixed cuz I'm not looking at that." I'm like, "Okay." Okay. And so now I get regular, you know, it's part of my branding norm. I get regular Manny and Petties. >> I love that. It's so handy of you. >> So Rachel, how you It's It's good to uh see you. We had I think it's your husband, right, has been on the podcast. >> Yes. Joshua Bele, thus the Rachel Bey. >> Ah, so is that is the is that an intentional bee or is that just the way it worked out? >> It's the way it worked out actually. Yeah. So my maiden name is Rachel Bronstein and I when I got married I moved my last name to my middle name cuz I didn't want to lose that part of myself and it happened to be this bee thing. So it's you know serendipitous whatever you want to say and so now we're the bees and it's really supportive for brand building and we you know we say the family all the time so hey you know just meant to be. So when y'all check into a hotel as a couple, do you say they say who are you? What's your name? You say we be the bees. >> Yes, definitely. >> So Rachel, uh what's your claim to tell us a little bit about yourself? Uh I I I've saw a little bit about you on the website and uh and Josh talked highly of you and he said you're just like this amazing person that's like crushing it on everything. So what what is your story? Well, thank you. Um, I I always I like to say that I love people and I've always really been inspired by how do I bring value to another human in whatever form that takes. I've always loved to be an educator and be in front of the stage kind of a thing as well. Since I was a kid, I've always been a strong communicator and that manifested into business and then as a marketer because marketing lets me connect with real people and the best marketers are highly focused on who they're actually trying to attract and why and they have a mission and a purpose and they're doing that consistently and and really well. And so um my career span working at an agency with big consumer product goods uh like Axe body spray. I worked on Unilver accounts a bunch early on in my career and then came to Austin originally to get my MBA. So unlike Josh who's the serial entrepreneur and like really hated school, I loved loved college and went twice as Josh likes to make me, you know, to tell me you went you liked it so much you went twice and yes, I love it. I I did my undergrad at Madison, Wisconsin. I'm a Badger and a Longhorn. And >> does that count though? Does Does the MBA from UT count? >> As what? >> I I I I've heard that that people that that go to UT, it's it's just like it doesn't count because you have to go to&M for it to actually count. >> Oo, are you person? Wait a minute. >> Well, they do call I don't know. you may be the exception because I I see in some of your stuff they call you the lady a lady boss >> but I always thought that you know what do they call the joke is always like what do you call someone that graduates from&M and the word is it's boss uh maybe maybe it's maybe you're okay then maybe you're okay >> okay I didn't know this is where we were going with it got it well here's the thing guys I'm not a Texan I'm a California like I grew up in LA So this like battle between&M and a lot of the Texas juiciness, like I didn't grow up with that. I'm now into it a lot more, especially now living in Austin for a decade. Um, but like in all fairness, I kind of like kind of stay on the edges of these debates and I but I love being a Longhorn. Um, and it was in it was in that journey that I met Josh actually. Not that he was getting his MBA, but he was out and about partying in Austin and I was as well and we met at a bar surprisingly. So, you know, I think it's hard to do these days. He had his top knot at the time and he was like very sexy and I was with a group and and he asked if we wanted fireball shots and that's how our love started. >> That's how I met Kevin. That just sounds like the same story >> back when I had hair, right? >> Oh, yeah. Well, you both have like the same glasses. So, it really was love at first sight. Like, you both have bald heads. The Yeah. >> I don't have a beard, though. >> No, UT is a good school. I'm an Aggie, so I love it. I love living in Austin. When they don't do well, I love listening to the radio and listening to everybody cry. So, I grew up here, so I was just giving you a hard time, but that that's great. But, so please continue on. So, you got your MBA from I got the MBA and that experience I wanted to go corporate. I wanted to be at the big brand and um I landed not just at a big brand I landed in tech at Microsoft and so I took a pretty big 180 in my career. I wasn't doing axe body spray cool campaigns with you know music artists. I was thinking about channel marketing B2B partner ecosystem like much more traditional and it was such a great learning of the tech world and software and what it is to scale because what Microsoft does and these big companies is scale. Everything is about that. Um and I I did all sorts of things at Microsoft and then I moved back to Austin for Josh. So, um, we I he had two kids and there was no way he could leave and we were doing long distance actually and negotiated my way into coming back to Austin with Microsoft and we got married and then I was at uh Gartner so another multi-billion dollar company but it research and consulting and then I had this like epiphany in the midst of all of it. I think Josh and that entrepreneurial bug had always been in me and um during the great, you know, re-evaluation, the great whatever you want to call it of COVID, I decided that, you know, I I think I want to leave the corporate walls and be able to share my voice. I was always great at branding and marketing. Um, and I want to do that more for myself and I want to be closer to the actual people cuz I just felt inside the big company you get so far away from the customer and you're just caught a lot of times in the bureaucracy of what you're doing. Uh and that's and that's in 2021 I left left corporate left all those things to to work with my husband like >> um and no I mean it was hard actually the first few years was particularly hard because we're both very like outspoken you know want to be on stage kind of people but we together had a similar vision that it was all about the people it's all about human to human It's all about like we're so tired of like the BS marketing that's out there which especially over the last couple years because of co because of remote work because of all of the changes that have happened into our system we've seen I think like the best marketing go exponentially higher in some ways with social media lot of great and a lot of smoke and mirrors a lot of spamming a lot of selling and that's like very much we're like xnay like that's not our jam We are all about how do we bring humanity together and doing you know good marketing about people and authenticity. >> Hey Norm, you'll love this man. I talked to a seller the other day doing 50k a month, but when I asked them what their actual profit was, they just kind of stared at me. >> Are you serious? That's kind of like driving blindfolded. >> Exactly, man. I told them, "You got to check out Sellerboard. This cool profit tool that's built just for Amazon sellers. It tracks everything like fees, PPC, refunds, promos, even changing cogs during using FIFO." Aha. But does it do FBM shipping costs, too? >> Sure does. That way you can keep your quarter 4 chaos totally under control and know your numbers because not only does it do that, but it makes your PPC bids, it forecasts inventory, it sends review requests, and even helps you get reimbursements from Amazon. >> Now, that's like having a CFO in your back pocket. >> You know what? It's just $15 a month, but you got to go to sellerboard.com/misfits. sellerboard.com/misfits. And if you do that, they'll even throw in a free two-month trial. >> So, you want me to say, "Go to sellerboard.com, misfits, and get your number straight before your accountant loses it." >> Exactly. >> All right. >> So, what are I I always found it u interesting people who work with their spouses. So, is it there a yin and a yang? Are you fairly similar? Uh, how do you cope? >> Yeah, it's funny. We we did a podcast. We launched our podcast and YouTube channel, Humanize Your Brand, finally. We're really excited. And we just did an episode on that, Norm. And um Josh and I are quite yin and yang, actually. And we've discovered that when you start working with your spouse and you're running a company, you kind of need to figure out what the fudge you're doing and like how do we have clear roles and responsibilities and get to like be creative and in our superpowers without like killing each other. And so we are quite actually quite yin-yang in pretty much every way. And so the more for instance like Josh is a projector and he's like big I he likes to like do the big ideas big like he's like always looking at like the future and like in Chachi BT and like going like crazy 20 ft you know 20 ft 20,000 foot deep and I'm like more of that strategy. How do we strategize and take that vision and now we have a big strategy and make that happen from like cost analysis to team to marketing. And the more we've learned what we're really good at and stayed in each other's lanes, the more successful we've become. >> That's that MBA in corporate world. That's that's that's influencing influencing that. when you say BS marketing, can you give me an example of what you mean by that? Um, just so for the listeners so they understand what all this BS marketing means like. >> Yeah, I mean I think one of the easiest ways is you know for for LinkedIn when we get those messages the hey Rachel B I'm a personal branding expert and you look like you really need support with your LinkedIn page. I'd love to talk to you. How many of us have gotten those connection requests, right? Probably have a couple in there today. Um, we get that on Instagram, too, right? How many of those like spammy ones on Instagram and they're saying, "I want to get you featured in Entrepreneur Magazine. You're amazing." Right? And it's only $500 a month. Like, that is just not that's not marketing. That's not understanding somebody. You have obviously no idea what I do when you're reaching out to me. So to me that's BS marketing. That's people doing mass marketing and automation and hoping that a you know they're trying to get that one two 3% or whatever conversion. Um but what did you lose in the process? And that that model I think is really really going to take a massive um shift with what we're seeing and experiencing with AI and quantum and machine learning and all these things. Yeah. They just go right in my trash bin. Soon as I see an automated one, it's Oh, I'd like to connect. We have certain people or in common. Okay. Bang. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that's the tricky part where it's like we we want to make those connections. Um especially in a place like LinkedIn, we connect. It is a networking tool. I mean, this is real life networking just online, like as if you were at an event or whatever. So, if you're going to go up to the somebody's table at an event, are you going to go say hi and introduce yourself and be like, "Hi, I'm Rachel B. I'd love to work with you." >> And I have no idea. You know, you would never do that in real life. Like, you would never never never. You would go up to somebody, maybe you say, "Man, that that beard is killer, Norm." Like, you would compliment them. >> I need to work with you in that beard. No, but maybe after like a couple drinks or like you know maybe you know we we got to know each other. Um >> and but for some reason online and social media people hide behind these facades and it's it's happening in a really nasty way. Um we obviously see that in politics and we're seeing that it's just it's just gross. And so I think we need to like go back to if I was seeing somebody in real life, how would I behave? what would I do? And that's why we focus on appreciation. We first try to find some commonality and find a way in to a conversation with somebody online before we ever talk about anything more, right, about what we do. >> Yeah. There's another form of media out there just in TV advertisements that since co have have been driving me crazy. And these are the ones. And I'm sure you've seen the same commercial I'm going to talk about. I won't mention the brand, but it's it's not on the personal side. It's not what we were just talking about, but it's on the influencer side. When companies like this this one car glass company, I'll just say that, comes out and tries to pull off an influencer commercial. And it's absolutely horrible. But I hate how they're injecting now so much influencerbased type of media that you know is just it's just scripted. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's not authentic. Yeah. So, how how do you be authentic as a brand? Speaking of that, I mean, how how do you what is the key to actually being authentic in this in a digital world? Because it it's diffic it can be it can be difficult. And um you know I I had I had someone I just spoke at an event in uh Seattle a couple weeks ago and at that event I I did a talk and then someone came up to me afterwards at the bar and we were just chatting. He said yeah I was just talking to this fell over here and he asked me is Kevin authentic? I think he is but is he is he authentic because he seems like a really good guy but there's that question because there's so much like you said BS marketing and so much out there. this guy thought I was he but he wanted to just double check to make sure you know he wasn't being led down a a a path or something and the guy of course confirmed it no no he's the real deal or whatever but um and he didn't know me but how do you that was in person so how do you overcome that in a digital space that authenticity and that trust around building your personal or your business brand >> yeah well first of all we've launched human eyes in terms of a company and that's exactly the question that we're solving for um from a product standpoint. It's all I can say on that. But this exact question is something that Josh and I are working on and having a tool to help us assess quantitatively uh how do we actually measure somebody's trust and authenticity now because it is so difficult right but some of the things that you immediately did right what or this person wait they what did they do they went to somebody else that they trusted and were looking for that voucher ing for you. >> Right. >> Right. And so that's essentially what a LinkedIn recommendation is. That's essentially, right, what a testimonial is, video, all these things, case studies, podcasts, right? These are marketing. A podcast is a great way for somebody to listen to you and like feel like they're sitting on the couch with you and can get a feel for who you are. So, we have to work a lot harder online. Um, but those are some of the ways that we start to show our authenticity. Also, just video in general, right? I think the reason why everything's about video and we've seen just such a giant uptick in that is because of the BS meter has, you know, BS meter super high. Everybody we think is fake and all these things. So, we're like, well, if we put you on video, then I can see how you talk. I can see if you're scripted or not. Um and and that's why we're seeing such a growth of video on LinkedIn for instance, right? That's been a big push on LinkedIn over the last year. Other platforms that's been a thing for many years. Um and so I think the more that we can, you know, for me I'll go on video without makeup. I did a post the other day around like the mental load and it was me um I was in a total breakdown overwhelm state like and I was just feeling that emotion of this overwhelm and I in this like picture if you go into my Instagram or my LinkedIn you'll see it. I was thinking of Rachel's brain and mapping out all of the swarming in my brain. And so I I drew it. I just took that moment of inspiration and thinking this could be another person out there and I drew it out and then I sent it to Patty who's on our team. She's my girl and I said this is how I feel today. I'm so overwhelmed. And then she was like, I feel this. And we did these three posts of my picture, this mental ma mental mode, and then her in this moment also feeling overwhelmed. And we did a post about it. And it has been receiving so much engagement. Like it's incredible because it was so raw, right? It was so raw and it felt so relatable. So online, if we want people to think that we're authentic, we really need to to peel back the curtain as much as possible and show these raw vulnerable moment vulnerable moment moments in balance with the things that are going to build you actual credibility, right? Because I can't my business is not about helping coaching you through the mental load. I'm not a therapist. I don't have a coaching business. That's not my business model. I did that post as a way to build resonance, right, and connection um and to kind of tie it back to who I am. If I did post like that all the time though, you would have absolutely no idea who I am. And so when we talk about building a brand, which building a personal brand and a company brand are a little different, similar but different, we have to still hit what is the functional benefit? Why would I want to work with you? I mean, after all, that's what marketing is. Our job, right, is to reach the our ideal audience, bring value so that we can bring our product or service to them, which hopefully is solving a painoint that they're having. I mean, that's what we're doing here, right? What I mean, that's what capitalism is. That's what business is. Hey, Norm, do you know any sellers out there that are just burned out during this uh ecom game? >> You know, I I know a lot of people that have talked to us, you know, when we go to events, and it's not only that, they don't know where to start. >> And who would you recommend they talk to? >> The first one that comes to mind is is Quiet Light Brokerage. And here's why. They're going to build you up. They're going to understand your company. And at the end of the day, you're going to know how to maximize your valuation. So, the very first thing you need to do is go and get your free confidential evaluation at quietite.com. They're going to ask a couple questions. Uh, you're going to meet up. It's one-on-one with uh somebody over there and then, you know, let the games begin. >> Awesome. What was that website again? >> It's quiet.com. >> Awesome. I'm going to head over there. So, can we stay on the personal brand for a second? You were just talking about this Instagram message that you had out there. >> Uh, what about like can you break your brand like by doing that? So, if you're coming out here as a like, for example, if I come out and I'm doing uh some form of video and I'm putting it out there and people are expecting this type of um media and it's these 60 to 3 minute segments, which I I I don't do a lot of, but I'm just kind of wondering all of a sudden now you're getting a bit more vulnerable like you were just talking about. Now, I'm kind of hitting a different persona, aren't I? Like should I stick with the persona that hey here's this guy that has one to three minute clips he does this he talks about this topic this niche and then all of a sudden I'm talking about let's say mental health is that breaking your brand I'm talking on a personal uh note >> well what do you think Norm >> well >> are you asking >> part of me says people would want to yeah part part of me says yeah absolutely people would want to see that side. But then the other part of me says, "Okay, but how much?" Or do you do multiple types of all of a sudden you're like you got multiple personalities, you got multiple personas that you're you're showing out there and um I don't know if that's breaking your brand. I can see a little bit like if you're having a bad day and you want to show or if Amazon's causing you trouble, you know, oh, they just suspended my account. I'm so depressed. Blah blah blah blah. Okay, that's a bit more vulnerable, but if you're constantly doing it, I I I'm just not sure about that. >> Well, I agree with you on that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think this is like uh so we're going to just talk about branding. Let's just like back up, right? And so what is too much? How when you share like but we can't answer that question until we've really understood what branding is, right? And so to me, branding is about the experience that somebody feels when working or seeing you as a product or service, right? It's the DNA of that company. Now, if it's a personal brand, it's your DNA, right? Like, right? It's you. Um, and so our job when we're thinking about brand identity work is to make sure that it's super clear on what's the vision. Let's say it's a company. What is the vision of this company? You know, our vision mission, our vision versus mission can be a little distinct, but let's say it's Microsoft, right? To empower every person and every person, every organization on the planet to achieve more. And I know that by the way as do many Microsofties current and alumni because it's like hit over the head right at when Satia Nadella became CEO. So if you take that mission vision then you have to build your value proposition and your value proposition is that statement that says what do you do? Who do you serve? And how do you do it differently than somebody else? Like what's the competitive set? Right? And so we have to have that laid out really clearly. Um and you know obviously like for Microsoft right they're supporting primarily like a lot of enterprise customers let's say a lot of enterprise businesses software businesses they have with software solutions across manufacturing da da da like their value proposition looks something like that. Now when we once we have that branding in our mind and it's super clear on what we do, who we serve and why we do it, then we think about the marketing strategy that goes behind it. How are we going to take that message and get it out to a specific audience so that first they understand what we do, right? And then they understand so much so that they want to buy from us. Now what's been happening like when I when you go to college let's say or you're learning traditional marketing and branding it's like you know and you guys are marketers you think about the typical marketing funnel right you have to build your top of the funnel build awareness middle of the funnel they're starting to consider you bottom of the funnel they're hopefully there to purchase right you're really driving that conversion the buying but this funnel is not really that linear anymore. Especially when we're talking about business to business business to business buying, which I'm pretty sure you you're working with other businesses, right? Even if it's the business to >> Yeah. like what you do and we are too like our clients are other organizations, other business owners, etc. So, we're in the B2B, even though we believe in human to human, but we're in the B2B buying cycle. It it's not really linear. It's like somebody might be hear about you middle of the funnel because of the friend. So they're pretty warm. Then they go talk to somebody else and they have a uh I have no budget. So six months happening. So then they have to go back into the awareness stage and then they're about to purchase and then uh everything gets pulled. And so it's like really really messy with a lot a lot of people involved in that. So then the question begs like okay marketing I need to get in front of this audience back to like let's go back into your question around like how how much is too much right well to remain top of mind in a buying cycle that is currently taking 6 months to 2 years unless you know you're doing e-commerce right you're selling the shoes and it's consumer and it's like I see these pair of shoes I'm going to buy it on Instagram right now that could be that's a much faster buying cycle. We need to stay relevant for a really long time and we need to be influencing many people that are involved in this decision. So that vulnerability post ensures that we're resonating for a long time. But if I sat there and talked about how annoyed I was at Amazon, that is like the BS that people put all over Facebook and you're like, I don't want to hear about you ranting. I can't stand all the ranting. I don't think that's what our job is as marketers. Now, consumers might rant. Your job as a marketer would be to see what they're saying and find a way in to get those people into your funnel, right? So, and that's where there's interesting like Reddit and Kora and there's interesting forums where we can be where the consumers are and attach our brand. So I think that like what what vulnerability from the humans behind the business which is personal branding allows us is this constant connection and resonance that is much seemingly much more difficult to create in a world that's like content content you know content is a commodity that the the buying decision is not linear anymore and so we got to find a lot more ways into their minds over a long period of time is a lot of personal branding stories because be because one of the reasons I asked that is is I I speak at a lot of events and uh last was it last? Yeah, last year I added before I would do a you know a technical tactical talk on marketing or something. I would add about a 15-minute I added for like four talks a 15-minute section at the beginning where I told three stories about my divorce about my buddy being found dead after 3 weeks on his couch uh and about a guy and that lives one floor down from me jumping from the roof with tin foil on his head. And then I tied that back in to um the four burner theory, the four oven burners about being an entrepreneur and about you can only have health, family, friends, and you know all these burners. You can't have them all on. And then I ti then I went on to into it and that that as a branding was deliberate, but I had more comments on that come up after me and more people because it created empathy and it created movement and an emotional connection with the audience. And then everything I said after that resonated even more and they they sat with more attention. So that's why I'm saying is it is it story or is it being and not not trying to be somebody else. I know this like McCall Jones, I don't know if you know McCall Jones, she spoke at one of my events and she does charisma hacking and she says there's like I forget the exact number like 52 personality types or something like that. And a lot of people try to be someone they're not. They try to like go on and be Mr. beast or they try to go on and be Tom Cruz or they try to be >> um you know uh >> whatever it is and she's like no stop that you that's not going to work. You got to figure out what you are and come across that way and you'll be more authentic and real and your branding will be better. So that's why I'm asking about is story an important part of branding. >> It's everything. >> Yeah. That's why I knew the answer to that. I just wanted you to talk about >> Yes. >> Yes. Storytelling is everything in marketing period. I mean um and definitely in branding you know even once you get your brand identity and stuff together you know you look at like for instance I always I think about like big branding and storytelling like I think the Super Bowl ads right if if you're in America I don't know what your you know where your audience but even if you're not like you look at these big ads at the big football games across the world like they're great examples Google for instance does a great job and they're probably the best brand storyteller and they hit that with big commercial spots. I think about that as like here's the epicenter of what we talk about. We have a brand message. How are we going to resonate with our audience and how are we going to tie actually the product into that spot, right? Or whatever. And you'll always see, have you ever seen those commercials with Google, right? And it's like somebody's in across the world and they're searching for something. their like long lost friend is across the other world and they're Google searching, right? And this whole story comes together where they actually there's the one there's the I use an example in one of my talks the psychology of marketing and it's the example it's exactly that that someone's typing on Google it's like >> uh trip to Paris or something like that and then they and then they end up cafe meeting somebody and cafes near this and it it evolves along so at the very end it's like u the search is baby cribs or something like that. It's where to get married then it's baby cribs. It's very emotional. Brings a little tear to your eye, but it's a very well done. If you haven't seen that commercial, those of you listening, I don't know if you've seen it, you saw my presentation, I think, Norm, on that. >> Um, that's a very, very good emotional >> commercial and branding commercial. >> Yeah, exactly. And you know why? Because I mean, that's how our brain works. Like how we remember things is through stories. It's like when you're trying to um you know Jim Quick and there's a lot of these brainiac kind of ways to remember names. You go to an event. How do you remember everybody's names? Well, you want to come up with something wacky in your head so it's a little story so you can remember them. It's just how our brain works. And that's what's amazing about marketing is that it is very much a neuro neuroscience and psychological conversation. And so the best brand marketers and the best marketers are those that understand their audiences, understand what they need and want and then resonate by building that emotional resonance through stories and human- centered storytelling. Kevin, that's what we say a lot at standout Authority because you could take tell a lot of stories but it might not have humans. It might not have the real customers in that story. But when you talk about company brand marketing, you most certainly want the real customers, the real people in that storytelling. And then from a personal brand perspective, which now you know personal brands are businesses, you know, that's a big question people will come with. It's like, h, do I focus on Rachel V. Lee or do I focus on standout authority? And then some people have built, you know, multi-million dollar businesses like, you know, Gab Gabby Bernstein for instance, right? That's it. That's the business. It's Gabby. And you know, we can talk about a lot of people that have really built giant businesses from their personal brand. The the reason they're able to make that choice is because they're great storytellers. They're bringing in their own experiences. It's and it's repelling people that are like, "This is not my jam. this girl doesn't get me. Which, by the way, Norm, if somebody didn't like seeing my mental load, I really hope that they would unfollow me and just like, this isn't the kind of [ __ ] that I want to see. And I'm cool with that. Like, I hope that you unfollow me. And in fact, you know, um more recently I've been posting, you know, stuff about my Jewish culture and um that feels risky, frankly, because of what we are experiencing as Jewish people. But I don't care. I'm like, if you're a bigot, let's say, and you're going to you're a closet, you know, person, cool. I really hope that you unfollow me and you stay the [ __ ] away from me, in fact. So, I think that now more than ever before, and there's something I was thinking about the 52 personalities. Is that what you're saying, Kevin? >> Yeah. It's Yeah, it's called charisma hacking. So, so with Chachi BT and all of the LLMs, everybody's able to really easily get a brand persona and like have a one of these personalities. You could easily say, right, you you have no experience, but I really like Kevin King. You are Kevin King from the Marketing Misfits, right? And I need you to write me 10 LinkedIn posts that are 250 words. Like you could go in, it's going to pull in all your podcasts and boom, now I'm Kevin. >> Are you looking to quickly boost new Amazon product launches or scale up existing listings to reach first page positioning? The influencer platform Stack Influence can help. That's right. Stack Influence pushes high volume external traffic sales straight to Amazon listings using micro influencers that you only have to pay with your products. They've helped upandcoming brands like Magic Spoon compete with Cheerios for top category positioning while also helping Fortune 500 brands like Unilver launch their new products. Right now is one of the best times to get started with Stack Influence. You can sign up at stackinfluence.com or click the link in this video down in the description notes below and mention misfits, that's misfi, to get 10% off your first campaign. stackinfluence.com. So, first that dilutes your brand, right, Kevin? >> Mhm. Um, especially if you're not doing the work to build your own personal brand, the LLM's just going to eat you away and now you sound like everybody else. But more than anything, everybody's starting to sound like everybody else because nobody's doing the prior work, which is what we do, and say, "Who are you? Let's figure out your brand. Let's bring in those stories, the things that only you uniquely could talk about. Let's train the AI to have all of that and have it continuously learning these stories so that I don't I might like Kevin and I could say I like the voice of Kevin but remember I've told you all these stories about me d like here are things I like and don't like. Let's make those posts now. And so most people are not doing that work which is why a lot of content is even more than ever before. Don't you as a brand want to own a word like James Clear basically owns the word habits for example Norm, you know, in the space that we're in, you know, he's the beard is part of his identity and his branding. For me, it's probably hacks or something cuz I do a lot of like uh teach people a lot of like quick little little tricks and hacks. Is that something that's important when it comes to personal branding to actually like own a phrase or a word or or something? >> I mean, it's a nice goal. I I don't think that's like necessary. I think that people are going to associate you with a couple words cuz people only remember so much at a time. So, what matters to me more than me being like the hack person or that feeling like it's a branded thing is for somebody to know Rachel's badass at brand, marketing, LinkedIn, like this is she's building product. Like, go to her for that. Like I don't need you. I don't like branding lady boss. Great. And I think that's again goal. Great. But for most people, especially small businesses and we're talking to a couple hundred or thousand people if we're lucky, right? I'm most I most want my clients and the people that follow me to be known for something they do more than anything because even hacks, what does that mean? Like you're gonna give me great like you're gonna give me quick hacks with marketing and so why so I'm gonna come to you for hacks like now what? >> Yeah. No, I I was just saying that you want to not maybe it's not just it's a you're known for you're known as the branding lady boss or you're known as this or you're known I it may not be just a word but it's a phrase. you're you there's something you know that you're that people identify with you for that's your you're the go-to. >> You know, Amazon part of Amazon's brand is if you want it overnight, it's going to be there at the lowest price. You know, all the stuff you see on the trucks and everything all that they always do that that's that's where you go if you want that. And so that's part of a brand though. If you if you if that's what you're looking for, you know where to go and and trying to establish that either as a business or a person, that should be part of your branding uh objective. I almost look at it a different way where you want to become the authority whatever it is. If you're the if you're an Amazon, >> you're the authority. You're building a moat around your brand by Yeah, you could do you could have that USP whatever that would be that word. But um being becoming an authority around certain areas, building a motor around that I I think that's what would >> well that's what that does when you own a word or whatever you are the authority. You're the go-to for that. >> Yeah, it's another way. That's a better way of saying it, Norm. Um, so is that what what is your process? You have something called work your brand or what what is that? >> Yeah, so work your brand is one of Well, I have my newsletter which is the work your brand and that kind of came from this idea of like let's not just work it WK, but let's work it. Let's effing do this. Let's put ourselves out there. Let's and and let's have a message and really empower people. And so when people come on as done for you clients, that is the opportunity to work on our your personal brand together one-on-one with me, that narrative, develop your content strategy, and then we're actually creating, writing, designing all your content and executing on LinkedIn. Um, so that's from like a services standpoint that we do. Uh but for me the vision of work your brand is so much around understanding everything that we're talking about here today, right? Who is our audience? How do we ensure that people understand what we do? We're the authority. We're the go-to subject matter expert. How do we build that vulnerability and authenticity in what we do as well? And so to me that kind of captures that the whole idea for for standout. What are some mistakes people are making uh with their personal brand or even their corporate brand when they're trying to build it? >> Well, I don't actually think a lot of people are very intentional with building their personal brand. So, um I think the biggest mistake people do is um well they they they look at their LinkedIn profile as a resume and they look at themselves as a resume frankly and that's not what the the story is, right? And so when I talk to people or do presentations, I I say for well first of all what do you think the definition of a personal brand is? I think it's it's probably the essence of the person, you know, uh what you're trying to represent. Uh I don't know. Probably that I think it's Yeah, I think that's what it is. Just the essence of who you are and what you're trying to portray. It's a feeling. It's it's a feeling that people have toward toward you uh and what what you represent um that they that they either may believe in or don't believe in. Uh it's it's that it's that that empathy, that emotional connect, that connection uh that uh it's authority, it's trust, it's it's a bunch of those things all wrapped up u into one. But it's it's also to help people reconfirm their own personal identity um as well. Yeah, definitely. I think that both of you hit it in um your own ways. The way that I would describe it is it's how others see you. So that's kind of initially what you were saying, Kevin, right? How are other people feeling? What is, you know, Jeff Bezos, what people say about me when I'm not in the room? A lot of times when I ask what is your personal brand to groups, they'll say it's the reputation, my reputation. Um, so how others see you is really important. And I'm not going to sit here and tell you, oh, it doesn't matter what people think about you. That's I wouldn't be a branding lady boss um that's worked with the top companies in the world if it's just I'd be lying to you. How other p people perceive you matters and it matters now more than ever. In fact, my newsletter that went out today was about free speech in the digital age. It's nice and spicy. So highly suggest you subscribe and check that out. So what others say about you matters and it matters a lot in the digital age, right? The other side though and I think that what most people are focused on is how do people see me when I do talks with the women in tech, let's say, or employed professionals. You know, it's all about like I'm professional. I'm a professional and I'm a mom, but I don't know what to say. Well, I I got this side hustle, but I don't know if I should do tell anybody because my company might all these kind of things, right? Because they're so worried about what everybody thinks. The other side is kind of what you were saying, Norm, is how do I see myself and that inner most true version of who I am, the superpowers that I have, not that somebody told me I should be, right? man, I I've so good at finance and I've been in this finance and I'm just giving examples of people um but I I feel horrible in it. I feel really disconnected. I want to be with my family and I hate this financial career. Well, then how you see yourself is really disconnected from how others see you. And so that's why you hear a lot of personal branding people will say, "Well, it's an inside job." Because so often we're focused on what everybody else thinks and the journey that everybody else wants us to be on which was a part of my story, right, of getting an MBA and rising the corporate ladder and like here here I go. But I didn't feel like connected like there was that feeling in my tummy of just like I think there's something more here. There's something that's off. So when we can bridge both of that together, how others see us and how we see oursel, we're able to create that personal brand value proposition and that goto feeling that just attracts abundantly everything that we want. Not just, you know, monetarily, but it feels really good. And that's how I feel with staying out authority and being four four plus years now into this entrepreneurial journey. It's hard. It's definitely hard. Like building businesses and two, you know, incomes coming in through business and raising three kids and health insurance. Like these are like being an entrepreneur and business owner is not an easy path at all. Like it's on your brain all the time. And I can go back to my why and how I feel and the ability to talk to y'all today. marketing misfits and to say my message authentically without any shame, without anybody telling me. And I wouldn't exchange that for anything. And so for whoever is listening and whatever that means, everybody's personal brand, everybody's meaning is different. Doesn't mean you need to be an entrepreneur. It doesn't mean you have to quit your job today. You know, it doesn't mean you need to be a mother. Doesn't need to mean you need to be a father. like whatever that is, the more we can kind of go back inwards and really figure out what's bringing passion and purpose and energy into our work and every day, the more our personal brand is going to really just ignite and more people are going to be attracted to it. And that's certainly what I've experienced and Josh has experienced, too. >> So, getting started with a personal brand or even just a brand in general, what advice uh can you give somebody who has no audience? they they're invisible. >> Well, we all have an audience now online. Maybe you haven't started to establish that audience, right? But you're showing up to the softball games, you're out work, you're on with your clients, you're going to the grocery store, right? All these people are our audience. And so one of like how I show up at the softball game or show up at Ava's school matters, right? These are this is part of my community. How do I take those offline audience conversations and bring them to online? Right? So, we have to start. We have to start. You get to choose. Where do I want to start? What does that look like for me? Well, if you're going to be online, you're either going to have a website, which is kind of an evolving thing as you all know with AEO and where SEO is going, but I think we're still going to be very much in a world of websites for for a while. You can have a LinkedIn profile, which is obviously what I would recommend to any person that's a career professional with o over a billion people on the platform. I would absolutely recommend a LinkedIn profile over a website, over a Tik Tok profile, over an Instagram, over a YouTube. Um, I would get that LinkedIn profile on there. I would start tagging in the companies you've worked for. Right? These are uh all opportunities to start getting that audience and start finding the people that you do know because you just got to start building those connections. So, you got to rock your profile, which we're not going to go into like a deep rocking profile conversation, but that is where I would start. And I would really think about, we talked a lot, I think here about like what's that kind of tagline, what's that authority, how do you bring that to life? Well, on LinkedIn, you want that headline, 220 characters to land that message as best as possible, right, Kevin? So, your hack idea, we wanted to be something around the I empower, I help, I educate, I whatever it is, who who is it? I'm helping entrepreneurs, I'm helping business professionals, I'm helping Seale execs do what? What are you helping them do? I'm helping them with personal branding and content strategy or I'm helping them develop software systems and healthcare whatever it is. Why? So what is the why? They do X the XYZ statement. So I help X who do Y do do X Y and then Z what's the outcome? And so why are you doing it? What's the energy and what are they getting out of it? And so that's a great place to explain to people and start also getting visible from an SEO and algorithm statement. You know, one of the things that that I've seen and it doesn't drive me crazy, but sometimes a little bit uncomfortable is when you have you you have a business feed and you kind of feel the person's oversharing like they just overstep the boundary, you know, to become unprofessional. And I don't I don't know if you can help saying where's that balance, you know, is it with your brand like you were just talking about putting out information about Jewish. And if somebody unsubscribes, that's great. That's what you want them to do. And I'm not sure if you're putting out information about that or like for me, uh it might be uh I'm just using this as an example. uh some health issues. You know, I'm an old guy. I might get some health issues. And I now I start sharing that with my audience and they might be just going, "Ah, that's that's oversharing." You ever see that? >> Do I see people oversharing? Is that >> Yeah. And like is there a balance, you know, or is it again going back to what we were talking about a little earlier, you know, with that persona and being vulnerable, but is there a point where you just overshare and now you're just shooting yourself in the foot and losing audience because they're uncomfortable? Let me tell you, I I really think the answer to this is it depends because you know um Gen Z, Gen Alpha is vastly different than Boomer above Gen X. You're saying old people, >> little older people. Older people vastly different, right? Like to your point of, you know, my mom has said this to me um and Josh about some of the vulnerability we've shared with the challenges that we've had with the kids this year. And um we haven't gone into super detail, but we've explained a couple things around self harm and and different challenges. And she's like, "Don't share that too much." like you know you don't need to tell the world all these things and sometimes I think that she maybe is right but most of the time we're like well mom like we're just expressing like this is it's amazing that when we give a little glimpse into the things that we're experiencing how many people actually reach out and say I went through this too how can I support you like it actually is really been beneficial and it's therapeutic on our side but it's also making it less of a lonely feeling because it can be very lonely to be going through these experiences. So, but there's a massive generational difference there. And then I'll talk to, you know, our uh my bigger kids 16 and 13, right? And Sky said, she listens to a lot of these things and she's like, "I want to hear about your business. Nobody cares about what you guys do." So, she said to me and Josh and she listens to everything, Josh. She's like, "I don't we don't care. we just want to hear the stories, you know, and I'm just like, okay. So, they don't like she doesn't get these kids will get millions of followers by, you know, watching somebody play a video game. I mean, there's crazy stuff happening with Gen Z now on TikTok. It's like somebody's live. Have you seen that, right? They're like live for hours and you just like send them money. I mean, one of our clients, their kids made 20,000 plus dollars. And you talk about oversharing. Okay, Norm, the video's up. They're just like doing their day. People are coming on and sending them money. >> That's that's >> wild, right? It's wild. >> But that's what's happening. And this new generation is the people we're going to be marketing to. these are the people that are going to be buying. And so I think like you this goes back into this large this whole conversation, right? Like a big core piece of branding and marketing is who the heck are you talking to? And you really need to get more specific and nuanced. And by showcasing personal the personal brands, by showcasing the people behind the business, you start to get more more nuanced and you start to see, oh, who's actually opening these emails? What's their profile look like? Oh, well, they're actually all entrepreneurs. Oh, they're all in healthcare. Oh, right. Like, you start to to learn a lot more. And so, I I think the more open we can be, but within your own guard rails, in your business's guard rails, right, that's what matters. >> Hey, Kevin King and Norm Ferrar here. If you've been enjoying this episode of Marketing Misfits, thanks for listening this far. Continue listening. We got some more valuable stuff coming up. Be sure to hit that subscribe button if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast player. Or if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify, make sure you subscribe to our channel because you don't want to miss a single episode of The Marketing Misfits. Have you subscribed yet, Norm? >> Well, this is an old guy alert. Should I subscribe to my own podcast? >> Yeah, but what if you forget to show up one time? It's just me on here. You're not going to know what I say. >> I'll I'll buy you a beard and you can sit in my chair, too. We'll just You can go back and forth with one another. Yikes. But that being said, don't forget to subscribe, share it. Oh, and if you really like this content, somewhere up there there's a banner. Click on it and you'll go to another episode of The Marketing Misfits. Make sure you don't miss a single episode because you don't want to be like Norm. >> What's the most impactful post you have ever made and why did it resonate with people? >> Um well there's a two two posts are coming to mind for me. Um, one uh what got picked up by the Washington Post. Somebody uh wrote an article about it and her article was actually kind of around this like is LinkedIn starting to is share too much which is hilarious, right? And um but it was me after my fourth canceled uh transfer with IBS. I had embryos and I was trying to transfer the embryo. Um, and nobody really talks about any of this journey. It kept getting cancelled. It was horrible process. It was just very it was really trying trying you think you're about to get pregnant and every time it's like no. And I came out and they had canceled it and I was in the car and I was just balling and I took a picture. So you might say, Rachel, why the [ __ ] are you taking a picture right now? Like come on. But I took it because because I knew like, man, there's got to be so many women that have been sitting in this feeling and how I feel right now is alone and I'm just going to take this moment and capture it. So, we did a post of the tears and the makeup and told this story around and did it around mental health awareness month and it got, you know, picked up by Washington Post and really got a ton of engagement. Um, so that was a big one. The other one that my highest performing of 3 million plus impressions is a video I did around Women's History Month and I just kind of like laid it laid it down of just like what women need and we don't need more seats in the table. We don't need like here's what we need and I just like said it in my Rachel direct way and that went just it really catapulted. And I think both of them are are timely. So great performing content is brand aligned and uh authoritydriven and also like the relevance and timeliness to the platform is very important. >> All right, we're getting to the top of the hour, but we missed Kevin for a bit. Kevin, you got any other questions? >> Yeah, it says it stopped recording, so I had to refresh. So no. So what do you think the biggest challenge is today when it comes to to branding to personal branding? Is it is it the BS? Is it AI is changing everything? Is it everybody all what's going on in the world and nobody it's hard to get the trust? What is the biggest challenge that uh those listening may have to overcome and if you have any tips for overcoming that? >> Yeah, I mean I I think it's really hard to do branding, personal branding for yourself. Like it's so hard for us to see what others see. And so that's why with Stand Authority, we have our brand launchpad. We do this for people because it's hard to see these connective tissues, the fabric of your whole life and tying it together and like pulling out these pieces of you. So I think it's really hard to do it for oursel. That's number one. I think that part is what holds a lot of people back cuz they're just like I don't care like I I can't do this too much. I don't and then they stop. Then the other side of it is now you have like catchy BT and you're just like help me create content, right? It's like people that have no marketing experience, anything, and now they're like tell me, you know, they put in a p they put in their bio, let's say that they wrote for work or whatever and it's like here here's some information about me. go make me post. And so now all of a sudden they think that they understand personal branding and that they're doing really well and then what happens is is they get no engagement and there everything is running really flat and so there's a lot of frustration because they took kind of what seems to be an easy route but it really didn't work. So, those are like the two things that I see along with um there's just a lot of imposttor syndrome. And it's not just a female thing, okay? It's not just a female thing. I have clients that are incredibly running multi-million dollar companies, big companies, working with, you know, millions, billions of dollar companies. And it's shocking at how they don't get the value that they bring. And so I think we're in an era where visibility is not given, it's earned and we have to work harder for it. And so we get to put ourselves out there more even if it feels really uncomfortable. And if you don't know where to start or how to do that, you know, of course me and I'm sure you guys and other there's a lot of people out there that can be supportive in that process. >> Okay, >> Norm, it's okay for you to keep wearing the speedos to go pick up your kids at school. So that we got that assurance. So you're good. You're good. You don't have to change your ways. >> All right. Well, and you can, you know, not have to wear pants during the time. >> I mean, are you wearing pants now? Like, is there a seat over >> Why don't you think I keep my hands below the table, Norm? Come on now. >> Just kidding. I'm just kidding. All right. >> See, this is good behind the scenes content. So Rachel, we are at the top of the hour, which means we have one question. Uh, we always ask our misfits if they know a misfit. >> Yes. Alex Katoni. Have you talked to her yet? >> No. No, we haven't. >> She's the best. >> What is What does she What does she do? >> She's the founder and creative Copy Posi. Um, supported over half a million copywriters. She has 100 thousand followers on YouTube and she's just an incredible human. So, >> I know of her. I know of her. We've never had her on. Oh, that's fantastic. >> Okay, so if people want to get a hold of you, how do they do that? >> Standout.com, uh, LinkedIn, the Rachel B. Lee, as long as you got that B in there, you'll find me on LinkedIn and Instagram. Those are probably the two places I'm most active and would love to hear from everybody. Awesome. Thanks, Rachel, for coming on. It's been great uh getting to know you and uh chatting with you and uh getting some good advice on uh branding. >> Thanks, guys. I really appreciate being here. >> All right, I'm going to remove you. Don't go away, Rachel. >> All right, here we go. >> Yeah. So, it's it's a challenge. I know a lot of people are afraid to get out there. They're afraid to go on camera. Like she said, video is a a really good thing. and they're afraid to put themselves out there and be a little bit vulnerable. But like y'all are talking, you know, there is a line that that that that's drawn. But uh in the world of AI and with with AEO especially now emphasizing personal brand, it's like what she says, you do care about what other people think of you. And that's what you know, what other people are saying socially, what other people are saying online is going to determine whether especially if you're doing this B2B, whether you're recommended as the person or not. Um, and it's it's super important. >> You know, I was talking to an entrepreneur, Andrea Lake. She was on my podcast and just about what people think about you. Well, she was on the Apprentice on Celebrity Apprentice and she um one of the things that she had to go through was a psychological evaluation because of the social media feedback that they'll get. You'll have your trolls and your haters and then you'll have your likes. Can you handle it? So before you get on to the show, you've got to go through this process to make sure that you can handle this sort of stuff. >> Oh wow, that's cool. I didn't really do that. That's that's hard. That's actually >> we should get Andrea on. Uh anyways, >> hey, this is uh this is great. So if you want to hear the companion uh to this uh the other half uh of this episode where we talk really about the branding side on LinkedIn uh with uh Josh Josh uh the profiling. Yeah. and the profiling and everything be I don't know what episode number that is but go to marketingmisfits.co co or you can look up marketing misfits on YouTube or Spotify or Apple podcast wherever you're listening to this and go back and look for that episode with uh with Joshua or you can uh listen to any other episode too while you're at it because we've got I don't know 90 or 100 of them there all really really good that right Norm >> I think so yeah whatever you said yeah >> we're on the talk tickers too now with >> we are ours we've had stuff go like hundreds of thousands of views on the on the talk tickers Yeah, I can't believe it. But, uh, we're there. We've probably been by this time. Uh, we'll probably be out there for about 4 months. So, we're still new out there, but if you want to check us out, uh, and one other thing, Kev, uh, we've got a secondary YouTube channel, and it's all for the little snippets, 3 minutes and under. So, if you're looking for just some gold from all these episodes, we always extract two or three snippets, put it on that one. That's at marketing misfits clips on YouTube. >> They call them nuggets. Nuggets. Not right, Norm. Nuggets. >> Nuggets. That's what they are. >> Those are the nuggets. Yeah. >> Nuggets. >> Hey, if you like uh like everything, be sure to like the channel. Uh subscribe to the channel and uh show up every Tuesday cuz we release a new episode every single Tuesday. Until then, I'll see you next Tuesday. Norm, >> see you later. >> See you.