Why Landing Pages Are FAILING in 2025

A landing page is kind of not enough anymore. Conversational marketing is the way to do so [music] because people now are used to talk to CH GPD for hours every day to ask even the smallest detail about anything they're researching. By talking to them and of course you don't really want a human to do that because it's going to be super expensive. But by talking to them and answering every small [music] detail question, then all these last minute doubts, they will be just disappearing and then the customer will convert. >> That's so important. Do you find that the younger generation is much more willing to do chats than the older generation or is it the other way around? >> As soon as we change just an headline in a a landing page, the results of the page can change completely. [music] >> You're watching Marketing Misfits with Norm Farrar and Kevin King. [music] >> Mr. Ferrar, you we're back for another episode. How you be? I'm just looking at the brand new Kevin King like with those brand new shades. Pretty pretty cool, dude. >> Oh, yeah. I had to, you know, my other ones uh broke. I sat on them accident. I had them in my pocket. I sat on them and bent them. So, I was like, I had these in the drawer from a couple years ago and uh I was like, you know what? I'll put them on. And everybody's [music] like, those are styling. You look like you're in you're in your 20s. That's what they're all wearing now. I'm like, oh, okay. [laughter] But they're he they're heavy. like they're heavy on my face, so I'm not used to like this this uh [music] this heaviness. But you know what? When you're old man and you want to be able to read the screen, uh you got to wear some glasses. >> You just It doesn't matter anymore. [laughter] >> Well, you know, [clears throat] you've done a little bit of traveling, haven't you, Norm? >> Maybe once or twice. you know, our buddy Steve Simson and a few other people that we know, they always post these pictures when they're in the airplanes of like u their trips, you know, and Steve's always like posting pictures of like, did I get the upgrade or not? And leaving everybody on pins and needles, did he get an upgrade? And we know Bradley, he's always posting something. And he posts something like flight number 82 of the year or something. Then the next leg is flight number 83. Have you ever counted how many flights you have actually done? >> No. But you know what? Uh, this is back in the '9s. I used to collect the hotel um cards and it was just a collection, right? And they were >> key. >> Yeah, the room keys. You know, the plastic the plastic keys >> and they were stacked up. I wish I would have kept them and just kept doing it because it would have >> it would have been a pile. >> Well, what? >> But no, I haven't counted them. >> I didn't think Motel 6 back in the ' 90s had those though. [music] I thought >> No, days in. It was days on key on a chain where it was actually a real key and it's a $50 if you lost it. I thought that was the thing. >> Hey, that happened in Paris. You remember that? Those big mother wooden keys. >> I brought it home with me. I got charged like 250 bucks. >> Well, our guest today, I mean, besides doing all kinds of stuff and exiting businesses and doing all kinds of crazy stuff, he I think he said he's done over 400 flights and uh 50 something countries. So, uh he's on his way. He's he's on his way. Um, uh, that that's pretty cool. Uh, that's why I was asking you if you ever counted up how many flights you've done or how many countries you've been to. >> Couldn't even begin. I know the countries. I I think it's 64, but I don't know the flights. >> Well, well, I guess, you know, it's appropriate then that our guest today actually calls this company Zip cuz he's been he was zipping around the world and now now he's zipping around chats. He's the founder of zip chat.ai. uh really good uh uh knowledgeable about conversion science and stuff and it's going to be a really good uh talk today uh with with Luca >> and yeah I'm going to let you pronounce his last name. So all right who who is our guest today >> on me? >> We'll see if I got >> Was that right? Was that right? >> Hi. Hi Norma. Hi Kevin. Thanks for >> your name was right. >> Okay. [laughter] I wanted to put him on the spot. So is that right? You've been uh you've been traveling uh you've been traveling over 400 flights and uh 50 some odd countries. >> Yeah, exactly. Especially during my affiliate time affiliate marketing times, I was [music] always traveling all over the world. Then uh with the co when the co actually I I started to slow down a little bit, but I just came back from actually a trip that involved both Chicago and London last week for two conferences. So yeah, I'm always on the run. >> I'm always curious about people that travel so extensively. So you're going to all these conferences. Uh like are are you gaining anything? Are the reason you're there because you want to uh be known in that niche or why so much travel? >> Uh there are two main reasons. Uh mostly we go there as sponsors. So we have a booth, we have a team join me, joining me and the the main goal is to you know uh make leads acquire new customers for for our venture. Um other conference I just go to to attend and be part of the audience and uh attend the beautiful speeches and I use this as an excuse to travel see new places [laughter] >> gain some points. >> What did you do in the affiliate world? Um what what was uh what was what were you pushing back then? Uh it was very back in the days when I was still in university. you know, the classic research online, uh, how to make money online. And then we start, I I used to have a blog at the time, um, where I was talking about blogging, make money online, uh, you know, direct selling, this kind of stuff. And I start to promote some, um, uh, business opportunities, uh, trading platform, uh, like plus 500, um, it Toro and other like CPA based, uh, platforms. Then uh I started to run like some neutra campaigns and that were the the best one at the time. >> So were you going to shows like affiliate world east and west and uh affiliate world summit that's in Dubai and what's it's in Thailand or wherever it is? Uh Bangkok. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's Bangkok. It's Bangkok. Uh yeah we I I started attending the affiliate war when it was first in in London then Berlin then they moved to Barcelona then they got acquired. Now I think they're running in Budapest. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Um, yeah, that's what you guys uh I have not. It's one of the probably one of the only conferences I haven't been to in the internet marketing space. Uh, but Norm told me I got to stop going to conferences. So, uh, I'm not allowed to go. He ain't grounded. >> Stop. I said important ones you can go to. >> Grounded. He grounded me so I can't go to conferences anymore. [laughter] >> Yeah. I I I remember at the time it was very big the one in San Diego, the traffic and conversion summit. That was also pretty good. I don't know if it still exist. >> No, it doesn't. It just canceled this year. >> Oh, okay. I remember they sold it. >> Yeah, they sold it. Uh, uh, the three guys that own it sold it for like 27 million right before CO started and then CO hit and the company that bought it, Emerald Expositions was like, uhoh, what do we do? Turns out they had insurance that covered like 10 million of of it. They had a, you know, end of the world insurance or whatever they call that. Um, and so they they they didn't get left holding the bag, but then they tried to run it and just died. And then Perry Belchure, who was one of the original three founders, just recently started his own thing because it died. He had a non-compete. So now he can he can do something up to a thousand people. So he just did something um back in uh um September called Growth Hacking Live uh which is uh he's he's hoping to to be like the new traffic and conversion type of thing. So it still exists just uh kind of in a different form, a different format. Um, but uh, yeah, there's there's tons of stuff out there. What's your favorite conference that you've that you've gone to? Where have you gotten the most I guess two questions. Where have you gotten the most sales for your business uh, as a sponsor? What uh, and where [clears throat] have you learned the most where the the speeches, the talks are actually worth attending? >> So, I would say the the traffic conversion summit of 2018, uh, I think was actually my favorite ever in terms of speech and things I actually learned. when it comes to conferences where we sold the most uh I would mention two one is Netcom in Milan actually uh it's a very Italian conference uh but since it's only Italian brands and it's very difficult for international companies to to tackle it because Italians don't really speak English uh so they they don't really attend the conference um that's that's a great one for us and the second one is um um the e e-commerce expo in London um they I I've just been there like last week but it's already going like crazy. So, very exciting one. >> Yeah. I was shocked at a conference I I went to in Turkey probably three or four years ago called um e-commerce e-commerce world forum I think it was. Uh and I hadn't heard of it. Uh I thought it was just going to be kind of a dud. And then all of a sudden like there's hundreds of thousands of people that attended over the 3-day period. and it was in this huge convention center. Um they tried to bring it over to the US but it flopped but uh it's still going on. World Oh, it was world e-commerce forum. That's what it is. >> I have to check it out. Never been. >> I think you'll like it. You'll be pleasantly surprised at, you know, who's there, who attends, uh the amount of stages. Like there's probably four or five stages going at one time plus the main stage. And they they did it up. like they didn't hold anything back. It was very well done. >> That's the one where you had to walk walk a mile to get to your your your Uber ride, right? >> Yeah, it was a long one. And uh the all the taxis and Ubers were on strike. Um well, the taxis were on strike and Uber took like an hour to two hours because they had the um uh European uh football finals there. So, it was crazy. But another event that kind of just snuck up and I'm going to definitely go again next year. Not so you might want to attend this, Luca, but it's um Ecom North. Um >> yeah, last year I >> last year was first year. >> I haven't been yet, but actually we are planning to sponsor it next year as well. Uh because we heard so many good things about that. They probably had a hundred digital displays going just with the Ecom North everywhere you went. And then they had all these monitors. They had four or five stage. The main stage was huge. And um um they filled it with they spread out all the exhibits. So this is really good like hooking it back to marketing. Sometimes it's an exhibit hall and you just kind of get bored. But what they did is they broke up. They had five in one area. You walk up the stairs, they had another five or six uh exhibitors. And they were filled. These booths were not cheap. And the tickets uh went from uh $500 at which I was talking to one of the organizers were the least of the tickets that were sold. Everybody went for the VIP, which was two grand. And then they they had brand and something else which was I think three and five grand but uh at least 2,000 people. >> Wow. That's >> for Canada who has [clears throat] nothing. Yeah, they they did a great job. >> Well, what' you say? Canada is nothing. >> Yeah, that too. But uh >> I [laughter] guess so. Uh, so Luca, when it comes to affiliate marketing, what what did you what chops did you learn doing affiliate marketing that you were able to apply to what you're doing? We'll talk about what you're doing now, but able to apply to what you're doing now. What what really skill set did you refine doing the affiliate marketing that's uh been very helpful in uh doing Zip Chat? >> Yeah, absolutely. Um, I would say like everything concerning like copyrightiting and direct response. uh even if it's a little bit different because now of course my company is a B2B company so the sales cycle is is longer and I mean conversions in general takes a little bit longer than uh when you run like a campaign which will lead like hundreds of conversions in the same day. Um but definitely copyrightiting and understanding like how people um you know consume the content you create for running the the campaign the creative the the landing page uh testing like lots of headlines this kind of stuff it's definitely the the part I uh took from the affiliate uh my affiliate experience and I still run nowadays every day. So, are you doing affiliate as you're buying social media, doing social media, organic or paid placements, or did you have a huge email list that you that you were doing? What what type of affiliate marketing? >> Not really. Not really. Uh that was definitely a mistake. Uh again, I was still in university. Uh as any European, we were I think years behind uh you guys in US and I learned that after that building a list would have been better. At the time, we were just like promoting direct response. So, uh, we were getting paid per lead. Every time we were generating a lead, uh, as simple as just the email address, we're getting like paid. I think one of the first campaign was $4.6. So, very good. Uh, and then we could have like all the kind of different uh CPAs depending on on on the conversion goal of the advertiser. Um, so I was definitely not collecting anything. I was sending traffic to an advertorial or a pre-lander that uh me and my business partner we were uh building at the time and then uh the magic of the copyrightiting was leading the conversions. >> Hey Norm, you'll love this man. I talked to a seller the other day doing 50k a month, but when I asked them what their actual profit was, they just kind of stared at me. >> Are you serious? That's kind of like driving blindfolded. >> Exactly, man. I told them, "You got to check out Sellerboard. This cool profit tool that's built just for Amazon sellers. It tracks everything like fees, PPC, refunds, promos, even changing cogs during using FIFO." Aha. But does it do FBM shipping costs too? >> Sure does. That way you can keep your quarter 4 chaos totally under control and know your numbers because not only does it do that, but it makes your PPC bids. It forecasts inventory. It sends review requests and even helps you get reimbursements from Amazon. >> Now that's like having a CFO in your back pocket. >> You know what? It's just $15 a month, but you got to go to sellerboard.com/misfits. sellerboard.com/misfits. And if you do that, they'll even throw in a free two-month trial. >> So, you want me to say go to sellerboard.commisfits and get your number straight before your accountant loses it? >> Exactly. All right. >> The copyrighting on the page. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Did you ever switch? Did you now you you said in university you don't didn't understand it. You you felt behind. >> Our switch was actually that we were quite good at that and we started to have people asking us to help them uh or do something similar. So on as soon as we finished the university we we did two things. The first one was um creating a small agency where we were helping like brands uh structure their funnels and their uh direct response campaigns uh mostly like Italian and European companies. Um and the second thing was okay if you're good at promoting and at getting conversions why don't we promote something that is ours. So instead of promoting somebody else um and that's when we actually started doing drop shipping because it was the easiest way to to get into commerce. So we said okay uh how can we leverage our uh you know competencies to to build something that uh potentially is longer term because I think it that was our bias from university uh even if affiliate was very profitable and very exciting we were always feeling like we're not building like something longterm and I mean uh every day you know at at university they keep telling you build a brand being longterm invest in the future and campaigns were like you know you start it it you get profitable at some point if you if you're good um you scale it and then it just dies and then you start from scratch again and every day like this. So it was also kind of boring at some point. Um with with the drop shipping part was very exciting to try to figure it out uh how to solve real business problems and at the time one of those was definitely the shipping times that were very very long. I'm talking about drop shipping directly from AliExpress when Oberlo was just getting started and uh I mean we're talking about like 35 40 days uh shipping to to US and Europe and other countries. >> Can we talk a little bit about the copy? Uh so many people uh you know we'll talk especially to Kevin. He's uh he's very good at copy and the slightest changes like can you emphasize how important it is to test and split test and understand your audience for copy? >> Yeah, absolutely. Um I mean as soon as we change just an headline in a a landing page like the entire results the of the page can change completely and not even talking about you know editing the rest of the content uh but just that line uh is so important and can drive like uh an increase or a decrease of conversion. So this is something we always try to you know um bet against. So we always make launch new test also for for for Ziphat itself. Again of of course ziphat has a longer uh conversion um uh conversion cycle. So uh results are not as fast as when as as when you launch and run like an affiliate marketing campaign or e-commerce campaign but that's make all the different I remember when I we were doing like three four landing pages same landing page different um uh headline and I mean there was some landing pages converting like at crazy numbers and some landing pages converting almost nothing and nothing else in the landing pages uh were were were changes. So the one that was winning uh we were keep testing it against new variations uh in order to of course improve and find out what could convert even better. So, what talking about conversions? I mean, one of the things that a lot of people I see this all the time because I do email marketing for uh I have a newsletter and people pay me for ads in in the newsletter and and that in the newsletter and then I send dedicated dedicated emails and Norm does the same thing with his and I'll see people that get 2,000 clicks off of a off of an email, but then they they sometimes they call me and they're thrilled to death and say, "I want 10 more." Um, and then other times they're like, "That didn't work." Uh, you know, nobody signed up or nobody paid or or whatever. And even though they got 1,700 clicks, that that I think you call it last mile uh conversion is is just not happening. What do you see that causes that? Is it is it a disconnect from the message in the email uh to the landing page? Is it something on the landing page that they haven't tested? Are they going straight for the sale without giving them more information? What do you see are some common things that cause that last mile to fail? Uh, and I know that's your tool helps uh salvage some of that. We'll talk about that, but uh what are some of just the fundamental things for those listening that they need to take a look at on that landing page first to help that conversion? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, um, of course, one of the main things when you run any kind of promotion is the product market feed. If uh your product is not aligned with the market, you're promoting this product too. Uh I mean you can buy 1 million clicks but it's not going to work. That's why one of the first lesson I learned is that uh you can get really um cheap clicks by showing for example like you know a very hot woman in the ad but then it doesn't mean these clicks will going to are going to convert. So, >> I'm not talking I'm not talking about clickbait so much as I'm talking about um a highly targeted where if I've got for in my example, I've got an audience of Amazon people that are Amazon sellers primarily. They want to make money selling on Amazon. I have a software company that says, "Hey, we can help you do some aspect of selling on Amazon. Maybe it's managing your ads or maybe it's doing your listings or making your images, whatever it is." So, there's definitely product market fit. >> So, but then so that's that one. I want to go beyond that. And my question is not the product market fit, not the clickbay stuff uh like like you know you see like you're saying but there is product market fit and the people actually they're clicking so that means they're interested at some point in in reading that ad but they're not converting on uh when they hit when they hit the landing page. There's a big disparity between 2,000 clicks and five conversions for one person and 2,000 clicks and 100 conversions for another person. What what that's where I'm trying to get at is what is on that landing page is something that they should diagnose to see where is this problem? Where's this where's this uh where something >> are they actually get a higher conversion rate from other traffic sources? >> I I don't know. Um I don't know. >> That's the big one. I mean their funnel can be just converting that much because overall uh that kind of audience uh or the product they they're promoting still is not you know uh as hot as they think it is. I mean that's a big a big one. Uh I run a couple of startups and we also had problems uh sometimes in figure it out and having like you know uh good conversion rate didn't matter where we were getting the traffic from even if it was like super in target with what we were promoting. Uh with that being said what the the first thing that happens when somebody clicks is that of course has to find some uh consistency with what they clicked on and what they find on the landing page. So if they don't find this consistency or uh the landing page copy or layout or whatever um makes them get some last minute doubts that's already a failure and uh if you're not able as a marketer to address these last minute doubts as soon as possible and then convert these last minute doubts into uh you know problem solve. Okay, yes I'm fine with this. Uh then they're going to stop for sure. We see this every day with our tool uh in e-commerce. We target only commerce. So we work uh we don't really work with software. So there might be a little bit different uh what zip chat would need to do. Uh but for example for e-commerce uh the kind of objections are really category and product um let's say um circled. So for example if you're talking about fashion the kind of objection that um come come out to mind to people are usually related to the sizing to the type of material the quality of the product this kind of stuff. And it doesn't matter if the Fiq's explain how to calculate the sizing, still they will have doubts about that also because if you I mean buy different products, different fashion products from the same store, the same brands, different products might fit differently. And that's full the web is full of reviews about even like super famous brands and the comments are like, "Oh, I bought the L size for this uh t-shirt and uh then I bought the L size for another one and they're fitting completely different." the the the sizing problem is a big one. So by being able to understand and address this uh and help them understand which one is the right fitting at the right moment then these kind of sales uh will actually happen. So they will not drop. So in the software it's kind of similar. If uh the person that is clicking is expecting to solve something and then he start to have lots of doubts about how this software is actually um delivering on the promises is uh is selling me on on on the ad on the on the newsletter ad. uh probably people will will just drop and again uh we really believe conversational marketing is the way to do so because people now are you know used to talk to chat GPT for hours every day uh to ask even the uh smallest detail uh about anything they're researching so a landing page is kind of not enough anymore in our opinion by talking to them and of course you don't really want a human to do that because it's going to be super expensive um but by talking to them and answering every uh small detailed question then all these last minute doubts they will be just disappearing and then the customer will convert. So you're talking about uh your app right now uh zip chat correct? This this is where that takes over. >> Okay. I mean it can be zip chat but it can be you know even like a human just talking to everybody, >> right? Yeah. But I just want to go back. So forget about the um Zip Chat right now or any of those other apps. Just going back to what we were just talking about identifying these issues. And I I think that a lot of sellers think that, you know, this is simple. You think you know your demographic. You put together some copy. You throw up a landing page and then you wonder why it's not converting. And this is where uh you really have to know and dig in and understand identify who your demographic is or the persona. Um we talk about the five levels of awareness. all these things uh you know take are a factor in getting conversions. So, ChatGpt can be a source for that. But for the most part, I think this is where, especially if you're new, you want to spend that on an agency or somebody that can help you out because if we did something or somebody that you know spent 40 bucks and just started out and Amazon started to do something, you're probably going to see a lot different conversion rate. and they think it's fantastic because you know they put in a oneline prompt and chatgpt5 just spit something out and it's awesome of course huh so but it didn't convert so these little extra what what you're doing and what you were saying is you know identifying and removing the doubts that's so important it especially if you're a micro brand like you're not a brand you're not a household name 99% of us are micro brands and we've got to convince people to spend money or as soon as it starts to smell fishy they're going to go off to a competitor. >> Absolutely. And and and that's where it becomes crucial to understand what's the doubt and it's not that obvious because analytic analytics tool usually don't tell that but conversation do. So what can you what can you get give me an example of something that you can't get in analytics but you can get in conversation >> in conversation you can go at the deepest level and adapt the conversation to the person it's like when let's take out the web component and think about uh when you're selling to a clients oneonone in a meeting you hear what he's saying his objections uh his point of view uh it can be even like his political view and then you can leverage whatever he's telling you against him to sell whatever you're selling. The same thing can happen in a conversation when everything the person is saying uh the eye analyze, understands, compare that to the behavior you just had on the website and then uh uses the best leverage to sell the product. >> So, so how do you how are you training the like zip chat to actually take the place of a human and ask these kind of questions or answer this? Is it is is the company having to train it and dump a lot of their FAQs and data in there? Is it I'm I'm assuming as as questions are answered another that questions added to the database for the next time or someone checks it sure was accurate or how's that process work? >> So there are different ways. The first one is as soon as you start using Zipshot for example, what we do, we take all the content you have on your website, not just the FAQ. Uh we analyze everything, every piece of text you have around the website, the images, everything. And then we add in what we call the knowledge base. Then we invite you and this is automatic can take depends how big your story is, but if it's a very small can take like 10 seconds. If it's like million of pages, can take like a few hours. After this uh if you want you can add additional knowledge base. These can be like uh additional sources from PDF to you know whatever basically you have uh in your uh in the in your database as you know uh kind of orders conversation previous conversation with customer service stuff like that. Um on top of this of course you you give you provide some instructions where you tell how zipshot should behave in a certain situation. you can explain uh the tone of voice of course you you want zip chat to have and and and this kind of stuff at that point this is the what the brand does and then for every conversation you can analyze what the zip chat was saying on your behalf and then provide a correction so you can keep giving like this feedback loop to ziphat of what you would like zipshot to reply in a certain content this usually I mean depends how many conversations are going on with the brand but ideally the first two three weeks We we recommend to do this on a daily basis. Um and this is what the brand >> you're looking at a log of what was asked by people and then correcting it. >> Correct. You have you have a conversation section exactly like you would have on a live chat tool. Uh every conversation is separate. You see if it happening on the website or if it happening on WhatsApp for example. Um and then you can you know provide these corrections and uh basically keep telling zip chat how you would have replied to that specific question or during that uh conversation. On top of this of course we we we we do benchmarking. So we analyze what kind of conversations are um driving sales. This is of course done by AI. We don't do manually. Uh would be crazy. Um and then the eye keep improving uh depending on what's actually working for the brand for the category in general in the commerce space which is the space where we are moving. So uh it's very common that our clients start using zip chat um they see a certain conversion rate I mean im almost immediately second third day and this conversion rate keeps growing over time because not only um of course the training of their their brand gets better so the eye knows better how to sell their their products but also in general ziphati gets better at selling products in general. Is this a custom system underneath it or are you tying into one of the frontier models and and just building rules on top of that? >> Uh it's a mix in the sense that we use uh LLMs. So we use entropic we use an openi to do certain actions in the back end. We build our um like custom infrastructure on top of this. And so you're just basically vectorizing and and uh putting everything into a rag system um that that can that can uh then answer everything. >> Yeah. >> Yep. Cool. So, what are some surprising things that you found by or maybe one of your customers has found like when they're looking at the the chat logs that you know like they study their analytics, they see the conversion numbers, they see you know all this stuff and then they take a look at the the chat and they're like, "Holy cow, we've had like seven people ask this question. We're not addressing it anywhere. We had no idea." Um, what's something that you've seen that's made a huge difference when they address that issue and on either on their landing page or uh in the in the sales process? Yeah. So if we talk about very structured brands, uh so usually it's not something they're missing on the u the UX or landing page. I mean they run probably lots of CRO uh on that but it's usually um a subsegment of clients they were not targeting in their marketing but still is coming to to to their website and is asking questions if that product is is good for for this particular situation. and they have basically no information on the website about that. Uh, an example that comes to my mind is this brand that they're selling like hiking shoes. Um, they're selling lots of them like 1520$20 million per month in overall sales. And uh, because one of the one of the reports they run through Zipshot, they found out lots of people were asking if the shoe was actually fine for something called the Mortonas. I don't even know like uh what's that exactly uh and then they started to add this because they were only targeting about and talking about facilities and uh a few other uh things. Uh but that one was like kind of epiphany moment because was the the fourth if I remember well uh most asked uh is this shoe fine for this problem? Are you looking to quickly boost new Amazon product launches or scale up existing listings to reach first page positioning? The influencer platform Stack Influence can help. >> That's right. Stack Influence pushes high volume external traffic sales straight to Amazon listings using micro influencers that you only have to pay with your products. They've helped upandcoming brands like Magic Spoon compete with Cheerios for top category positioning while also helping Fortune 500 brands like Unilver launch their new products. Right now is one of the best times to get started with Stack Influence. You can sign up at stackinfluence.com or click the link in this video down in the description notes below and mention Misfits. It's m i sf ts to get 10% off your first campaign. stackinfluence.com. You one of the things that frustrates me when I'm trying to search and I'm I'm going and using some form of chatbot is the loop. I don't know if you've ever done this. Uh like if you're looking for an airline customer service which doesn't exist or uh it could be just you know one of your favorite brands and all of a sudden you go into the loop. You cannot get customer service it doesn't accept the question or the question that you provide doesn't give you the proper answer. So you try to rephrase and rephrase and it just gives you that loop. And one of the things that um I I like u which is it's it's the app was called Apex. I don't even know if it's still alive but um it might have you know kicked off. I don't know. But Apex gave us a real interesting instant problem solve. You had the ability to uh go on ask the question if you got frustrated or if you just didn't get the answer. you had the chance to have email support or instant customer service. So now you're real time and I I do this with a client right now who is a um he's in the medical business and so he needs to close these sales real time and it's him that's doing it. So uh that's what's lacking with a lot of them. You'll see the hamburger, you know, the three lines you drop down. It gives you no support except, you know, either for email, which is you're probably going to lose the conversion right there cuz it's not instant. But a lot miss the ball because they don't offer real-time support, you know. What do you think about that? >> So, um, in our specific case, it really depends on how the merchant want to set up zipshot because, um, we we are AI first. So the entire platform is as it was was born to be uh fully high powered but of course there can be a situation where the eye is not able to handle a certain conversation as you mentioned or uh you as a merchant you don't want the AI to you know take care of this conversation. So we created a system that basically um help the eye to escalate the conversation to a human and the human can of course if the brand wants to do that take over the conversation live as you just mentioned or certain brands they don't want to have a person live uh you know that's also like a big cost uh to have somebody monitoring all the chats um basically forward the entire conversation to an inbox which will basically turn it into a ticket and then the the the the support team basically takes care of that. Um but yeah, I mean this can happen. U the good thing is that we're not like in a very um hyper sophisticated uh industry in general. We don't work with airlines or banking which uh it's where they try to implement chatbots forever and they usually go into this looping because every everyone has different uh very specific problems and they're usually not able to solve them. in e-commerce like pure e-commerce D2C it's something uh I mean 92 93% of conversation we can completely handle them without escalating them to a human >> and the thing is if someone what percentage of people engage do you find engage in a chat that hit a page does it 10% of the people that land on that page end up uh interacting with the chat uh the agent or what's what's like a I know it's probably varies depending on the product but what's like a a rule of So it changes all the time as you mentioned and 10% is my goal. Uh we are building zip chat to be able to engage with 10 15% of the people but I would say the average is around 2 2.5%. >> But of the people that do that so if I get a 100 if I get a thousand visitors to the website you're saying about 25 of them will engage with the the with zip chat with the chatbot 95 of us. out of those 25 I I think I saw a stat you said about almost one in five of those convert after >> yeah one of five is average across the the board but all brands that have been using Zipshot for a while and train it properly um they can go like 25 30% we have like an outlier that reach an amazing 58% uh the last August not this one the previous one um with over like two or 3,000 sales uh so like onist consistent numbers, but again the average where we mentioned the website is 16.4 16.5 something like that across the board. >> Do you find that a lot of people like Norm said earlier where he gets frustrated cuz that's like the old the technology has moved ahead quite a bit lately with the like you said the back end is you know the latest LMS. Have you found that people are still resistant to use it because they've had experiences like Norm? And how and how do you overcome that? Like, hey, just interact with it. You know, this guy, this little bots, this little agent's pretty smart. How do you how do you get them to not have the negativity that a lot of people that have had bad experiences in the past with a chatbot have and they're like, "Ah, I ain't going to talk to that's a waste of time. I'm bouncing." >> So, I would say that most people, they don't even realize it's an AI. They just think it's a live chat. Uh we received a lots of people uh lots of sorry emails or screenshot from uh our merchant to our success team with screenshot of customer sending an email to congratulate I don't know John from the chart that was so amazing at serving them we of course [laughter] John doesn't even exist or like some trust pilot review like you know uh Sophie from the chat from the support team is so nice all my questions and recommended an amazing product uh I mean, this happens all the time, especially when um like the the story is targeting, you know, an older audience. Um but with that being said, I wouldn't say this is the main issue. I I think most people see the chat, think it's like a trust sign because they believe somebody will reply to them. They don't realize it's going to be a chatbot or AI or, you know, a live agent. the CD is okay the brand is accessible and already this on split test some of our merchants run increases the conversion rate of the page it doesn't matter at this point if it's deep chat or whatever other of the thousands chat chat bots live agent chat there are this already is a good sign that you know uh the website the brand is accessible especially if the brand is not known uh this a great trust sign the second thing is that when they start chatting our goal with chat because we uh charge per reply. So our model is based on the number of replies the uh merchant is going to use. Of course, we don't want to waste this reply for our merchants. The goal is always to provide a reply that is super comprehensive and basically fully answer the uh the question or the situation or whatever the the customer you know uh put inside the chat. So, um, they usually don't end up in a loop. And, yeah, might be that one of the reason they don't want to start a conversation is because they're scared. Uh, but to be honest, I don't believe I I I believe this objection is more often among the merchants that they don't want to use uh, Zip Chat because they're scared the eye experience is not going to be good, but not like the final user to be honest. Yeah, I'm sure this is a much better uh model than, you know, back a year or two ago. You know, that was horrible back then, but now you're starting to see this all evolve. But, you know, I'm wondering if an app like yours or something in the future can kind of test whether you're a tire kicker or you're actually willing or you're you're on the way to buying something, converting. Is there a way or a weight given to the questions? Like, oh, this person's asking this question. They're about a 20% chance. And now there's going to be follow-up questions or comments that are going to try to get them to come to 40 or 50%. And then push them over the fence, you know, to to actually buy. Is there a waiting system? >> Uh, it's actually not something we are doing, but it's actually a great idea. So, thank you very much. >> Oh, hold on. I had Kev, I had a good potential great [laughter] feature. >> That's called affiliate commission norm affiliate commission. >> Ah, [laughter] okay. Okay. >> But it would be great though because >> that's actually very smart. Like >> if if somebody's sitting on the fence, you know, I see this in Amazon all the time. It's, you know, when you go below the fold, you really got to convince people through your right now it's uh your A+. You know, that the answers are there and that's where you're trying to push them over or if they're asking questions or in your reviews. But um you know I'm sure there's a way to do this. Uh we just I haven't seen it yet. >> Absolutely. Well, it's definitely very interesting. It's something I will bring in uh internally because it's quite interesting. But I have actually a question for you for Amazon because I definitely have no experience on that. >> We don't either. >> Good. Joking. I'm joking. [laughter] >> I know. I know. I know. I know. Um, regarding Rufusi, you as a seller, can you actually see what kind of questions people ask about your product? >> No, they don't give you they don't give you the questions that um you can see what's being asked. Uh there's they show you like five to 15 U and but there's typically up to about a hundred and there's ways to actually see what Amazon is choosing to put in the the preset questions and then that way you can actually go back and make sure your listing is actually answering those questions. But they don't let you see like how many people typed uh this or that or they don't get you don't get log access or anything to that as of this as of this moment. Um but that would be super valuable to to get that. >> And did you actually see any increase in conversions uh since the the prefill questions buttons below the images have been added or not really? >> I haven't I have not done testing myself on it on mine uh to to see that um cuz my stuff is seasonal. just went up u just in the fall. Um but there Bradley Sutton from Helium 10 has said that he's done some testing and he's seeing that a lot of it's not making a difference. Some people were asking I don't know how much you know I put faith into what he's his process but he's saying it's not making a difference. It's it's still a work in process, but over uh the last black uh Prime Day back in July, they said like 17% of the uh queries were uh searches and stuff were done on Rufus that led to to sales. And if you look at stuff like walmart.com right now is saying that 20% of their outside traffic is coming from Chat GBT. 20% is coming from ChatG. Amazon has blocked it. Amazon has blocked chat GBT and all the others. Perplexia and Gemini and all those guys from actually indexing their site because they're trying to protect their advertising revenue. Like people can go to Chad GT and go straight to the listing. Then they're not clicking on ads. Uh so they're they're they've put up a wall. There's still workarounds on that. But like what what you just said is I I just I have an LLM with all my content. So, I I I spent about eight grand 10 grand developing an an LLM that takes all like this podcast, Norm's podcast, my podcast, my newsletter, a whole bunch of other stuff and dumps it in. It's about over a thousand individual big pieces of content and you can chat with it. Um, and I log that and it's just just at the time of this recording, it's just getting off the ground. And I was going to keep it behind a pay a wall, but I set up a for a membership site, but I and it still will be there, but I set up another version on a different URL. It's basically a dupe of the bot that's just a different URL. So, I can cut that URL off if I want. I'm going to put that out there for like 30 days for free and let the whole world use it for free for 30 days for that exact reason to see what they're asking and to get all these questions cuz then I can take that and there's some really good AI tools. I'm sure some of your big clients are doing this already that you can create buyer profiles based on those chats. Uh you know a lot of people say use the reviews right now or use the analytical data but based on the chat history and you could have done this with phone calls in the past you know if you were taping all the phone calls and transcribing them but that was a lot of work back in the days. A human had to transcribe it you know AI couldn't do all this. Now with the chat you can take that and create incredible buyer profiles. I just showed one to Norm uh uh earlier today. I don't know if you had a chance to look at it yet, but it's like detailed all the objections and all the pain points and what the type of person that asked this is. It's amazing. And then you change you write your copy your landing page aimed at that. Um and I'm about to test it this week and but in theory from I was at a conference where they talked about this and they're they're seeing massive lifts in conversion by doing that. So, it having that data, it's it's one thing to take care of the customer and get that 20% conversion uh when the ones that are chatting, but I think the data is super valuable. And if >> absolutely people aren't taking advantage of that and and using that uh to to fine-tune their marketing, I think they're leaving a lot of lot of money on the table. >> Yeah, this is very like a very big gold mine that lots of people are actually underestimate right now. And I would even like if I was using your software, I don't want them just to chat when they got a question or problem. I would try to be encouraging them to chat just in general. I would some sort of gamification. Uh some, you know, win a free pro I'm just making stuff up off the fly here, but win a win a if you're selling shoes, you know, take some of your excess inventory of shoes uh that you can't sell and use them as prizes and say, "Hey, win a free uh pair of shoes. see if you can uh answer three trivia questions or stump or stump stump us. Stump stump stump Henry, give it a name or whatever. Susie, stump Susie. Uh and ask a question and see what they're asking, you know, about our products or whatever. You'll find out a lot of other stuff, too. I mean, you could there's so many things you could do with this besides just answering customer service type of things or helping close a sale. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Are y'all doing any of that kind of stuff? >> Uh, I mean, we have a very open system. You can create basically everything you just mentioned uh by prompting it. We don't believe in uh creating flows. We believe flows are like you know the past. So all our dynamic >> and new updates is are basically uh structured way that you set up everything with prompts. >> Just to make you an example uh where it really happens very well it's the WhatsApp outbound marketing campaigns. WhatsApp is not very popular in in US but in Europe is huge. And uh our clients can uh create a campaign uh targeting people that bought a product the previous month and prom the campaign away that of course the conversation would be completely adapted depending on the reaction and the feedback of the customer on that previous um purchase and then bridge the conversation to an unanimous goal which is selling a bundle or something else. So if the person will have like negative feedback for example, the conversation will be um adjusted and adapted to uh proposing and promoting the bundle as a way to uh be you know I'm sorry you bought this I don't know food supplement uh you didn't see results yet but you know you need consistency so uh I can provide you like a bundle with like I don't know four months of products for the price of one month or something like that can be anything. If somebody is super happy, you can ask a review and then provide the um again the bundle as you know a token of appreciation. All this kind of stuff uh again completely prompted uh and you can do pretty much anything you want. Collect reviews, ask for referrals, do some quizzes, uh collect emails and stream streamline uh them to whatever other system marketing automation tool you want to use. I mean it's very versatile. I think you said a key point key point there. >> Most chats are on the website. I think you guys call it bubble chat or something. It's like on on on the website itself. You don't know who they are, >> but you have a system where you're getting them and I'm curious how this works. You're getting them over to WhatsApp and the entire chat process takes place there and by default there maybe they got to click a button in Europe or something. You know who they are and you can do exactly what you just said. You don't even have to ask for an email. very seamless and and now you can remarket to them like an example you just gave. That's brilliant right there. Um how do you get them to get what's that process like to get them from on the the bubble chat on the site to get them over to WhatsApp? How do you how do you do that? >> So it really depends if the merchant wants to use WhatsApp uh what you understand in a few sentences. I must say not all the merchants understand it even like after weeks of conversations. uh but I mean this is uh for sure your uh years of experience in the field uh but yeah I mean there's different ways different models of bubble chat you can if it's from uh uh the website we can pop up like a QR code telling them scan this get a 10% off like when you you know fill up uh a popup and then the person is subscribed to the WhatsApp uh newsletter or there is a double button so you can decide to send a message uh in the chat on the website or if you prefer to WhatsApp and Again, if it's from a website, you can choose between opening WhatsApp on the computer or just scan the QR code. If it's from mobile, it's by default opening the the the the WhatsApp app. Um other ways, it's the chat itself recommending the WhatsApp. So after the conversation is going on if the customer didn't leave the email or the number in the conversation. So as you mentioned it's not um identified in that case it can u decide to itself to propose a coupon code if they go on WhatsApp and do something. So there's different ways different entry point. >> So are you building a community through uh WhatsApp? I I did visit your site beforehand, but I'm just trying to visualize somebody goes to your goes to a website, something pops up, it takes them over to a WhatsApp group or WhatsApp. Yeah, what's I guess it's a WhatsApp group. >> No, it's not a group, it's a conversation. It's a one-on-one conversation. It's exactly like if you're building like a email list on Clavio, for example. Okay. So, you can broadcast this the this um uh this list. Uh but the problem with whatever is related to you know emails or SMS I mean maybe USS SMS is a little bit different US again uh but usually people don't reply at least in Europe I don't know I'm not very familiar with SMS marketing US uh but at least in Europe they don't reply same as email uh it's great for doing marketing but the good thing about WhatsApp is that you start conversation and the tool is designed to start conversation if you think about it if you send an SMS kind of marketing promotion on WhatsApp, people will just report you and the number will be probably blocked because they're used to conversation, not to, you know, mass promotion. So, the best way we saw our merchant doing this is buying buying uh launching a campaign, a marketing campaign that doesn't look like a marketing campaign. So, it's a support marketing campaign if you can call it that way. So, it's like, "Hey, Kevin, um, uh, I was just checking in. uh last month you bought this backpack from us. How do you find it? Do you like it? Uh how could it be better? A feedback would be very appreciated. By the way, I'm Luca from whatever name of the brand is. So this kind of message doesn't sound like a spam me or very aggressive one. Uh I can also say something like if you [clears throat] give me just a small feedback I can provide you a coupon and then the conversation start and as soon as the person replies the eye will be able to reply to this message after a few seconds or after a minute or whatever to to simulate like a more human interaction and the conversation will be onetoone super adapted to to Kevin uh you know pushes history and previous behavior and conversation. So basically what we uh already know about how it works and and this is super powerful because later on you can propose the promotion or sell something else. >> So your bot ties into their to their CRM so it knows like I've placed five orders in the past for this supplement >> or on this or you you can actually tie in to customize it um to that level. >> We get that from uh from Shopify. Um most of our clients are on Shopify so we have a Shopify app. uh for all the others platform they have to do some API connection. So that WhatsApp if I if I you might migrate me over there using one of the methods you just said and I have my conversation today and I'm done but a month and a half from now I'm like man I got a question uh can I go back into WhatsApp and initiate that conversation and your AI picks up where it left off so I don't have to go back to the website so they can do the whole thing >> uh even a month later in there and say hey I need to order some more. Is it aic enough where it can actually place an order on well this you could it should be soon >> place an order on Shopify and tell it hey order some go on WhatsApp order me some more of whatever that thing is that we talked about uh last month. >> So the purchase inside the chat is a feature we are launching very soon but it's not available yet. So right now it would yeah right now it would just give you the um the URL of the product you want to purchase and send to Shopify or whatever is the platform. But now with the last uh you know update of uh Shopify of the past few days uh it should be possible to actually do this inside the chat. So it's what we are working on. >> Yeah. With that new protocol um [clears throat] that's that's so this do you find that younger gen is there an age thing on this? I mean like you said that in the US a lot of people do use WhatsApp. It's not nearly as popular as Europe or or Latin America. Um but they do it is used. Um but do you find that the younger generation is much more willing to do chats than the older generation or is it the other way around? >> Uh I would say older generations are they chat to get an answer immediately. Younger generation they used to ask more questions. Don't know if it makes sense. >> So the younger generation asks more questions >> ask more questions in the same the way that they're more used to chat with somebody. So it's more like a back and forth. >> Oh they use it more. They use it. >> Yeah. Like they they they do longer conversations like all the generations are more like uh one very well structured question uh for which the answer is going to be already super comprehensive and answer all their you know doubts. For the youngest it's more uh like a a small piece of question and then a back and forth with lots of other small questions. >> Hey Kevin King and Norm Ferrar here. If you've been enjoying this episode of Marketing Misfits, thanks for listening this far. Continue listening. We got some more valuable stuff coming up. Be sure to hit that subscribe button if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast player. Or if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify, make sure you subscribe to our channel because you don't want to miss a single episode of The Marketing Misfits. Have you subscribed yet, Norm? >> Well, this is an old guy alert. Should I subscribe to my own podcast? >> Yeah, but what if you forget to show up one time? It's just me on here. You're not going to know what I say. >> I'll I'll buy you a beard and you can sit in my chair, too. We'll just You can go back and forth with one another. Yikes. But that being said, [laughter] don't forget to subscribe, share it. Oh, and if you really like this content, somewhere up there there's a banner. Click on it and you'll go to another episode of The Marketing Misfits. Make sure you don't miss a single episode because you don't want to be like Norm. >> So is this app affordable for like SMBs or small brands or is this more for the intermediate to larger brands? >> So we start from $49 per month. Uh this would cover approximately 150 conversation. uh again at the convers conversation rate we were mentioning without considering WhatsApp of course because that's or another stuff I mean it's included but uh of course if you launch lots of campaign is going to be more conversation but only the the chat bubble on the website that would you know mean I don't know between 7,000 and 10,000 visitors on your website per month so that's you know where we we start we start working with like you know brands and onwards we have brands that have like I don't know 5 million visitors per month on their set uh others with like 2 million. But yeah, in general, generally speaking, the IDC, we have this brand for example, uh is a Chinese brand selling to us. I think is one of the 600 top Shopify brands out there according to some, you know, databases. Uh they make like 800K in sales from the chart coming I mean attributed to the chat every single month and they pay us not even $2,000 per month. >> True. I mean this I mean at $49 a month anybody everybody should have if you got more than if you got any kind of decent traffic you should have this on there. >> I mean we also have like you know super small shops that they just don't want to check support. So they don't abilitate or activate any escalation system but at least they have somebody or something to reply to random questions that they may arrive like every week. Again if they can afford it it's perfect. Of course, uh uh some people still um they with super small business, they don't prioritize this. They're just looking for more traffic. Totally fine to us. >> I mean, I can see someone coming in. Yeah. Go ahead, No. >> Yeah. So, forget the uh the small mediumsiz businesses and brands. Can you do this with an agency? So, you might have 10 different brands that you're representing >> and you >> Yeah. and you want to get them to start >> communicating through the WhatsApp. Is that possible? >> So I know should I >> So you have an agency that represents 10 different brands and you want instead of going to Slack or going to whatever communications channel that you're using with them. Can you set this up as an in WhatsApp using an app like yours >> for like customer service like agency to the brands that they're managing to they have questions, it goes over there and we have one communication channel. >> Uh I mean theoretically you can set it up like this. It's it's not really built for this. I would say it's more like you managed the 10 different channel of WhatsApp of these clients with zip chat. I just think this is if I think this sounds very interesting. Um to like as long as you train the uh you know the app properly, this could handle a ton of questions that are multiple questions coming in from multiple clients. >> Yeah, I mean that's exactly what Zipshot is for. So again, it's super versatile. I never use this or or saw this use case particularly, but I have to talk. [laughter] >> Absolutely. >> I see I see it, Norm, like on the front end of Dragonfish. Not so much on the back end. Maybe at this point that would I think a different system, but >> like on the front end where people are like asking standard questions that constantly be feeded and and learned. >> But I could see where Agentic Commerce is going to change this even more where you can go into the chat and you can just say, "Hey, do you got any new colors or is there any new sizes?" Uh, oh yeah, we got red. Okay, order it for me and send it to me. And that's you're done. And then the eight and within WhatsApp, it takes care of all goes in to Shopify and maybe it says, "Would you like to use the card ending at 9348?" Um, you're like, "Yep, that's fine." And all right, it's orders placed. It's on its way. And totally agentic. Uh, and and that I think I think this is I think chat's going to grow up um more than what people have been used to and the power is going to be even more um coming. What do you what do you think on that Luka? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean the things you can do through a conversation uh that until last year I mean we were used to generative AI so you you ask something you get a reply that's it now with the ability to perform action in in other systems I mean it's basically limitless what you can do it's just about you know uh making it possible so just imagine like getting refounds you upload the picture they analyze the picture understands if the product is really damaged and then it issue the refunds immediately to the card you you basically purchase with or adding uh items to the order. I mean, there's pretty much everything you can do. >> All right, guys. We're at the top of the hour. Uh Luca, was there anything that we missed out that uh you want to talk about? >> Uh don't be scared about AI. That's something else I saw a lot recently. uh people gets very scared when they see you on linkad in all this crazy innate automation with AI and they think okay uh this is going to be super complex uh I don't want to dig into it uh but at the end of the day those are mostly like you know engagement farming post uh usually that flows they don't really work at scale at least what we saw with most of our clients um so there's lots of easy solution zip chat is one of those plug and It's zip chat.ai, right? If people want to visit. >> Yeah, ziphat.ai. And they also have a discount if anybody uh wants to try it out. We have 7-day free trial, 30-day money back guarantee. Uh we give a success manager to any account regardless of the size of the account. So, it's very easy to implement and be sure everything is set up properly. And on top of this, I can add like a 10% off forever on any plan uh by using the coupon code podcast 10. Awesome. >> Okay, perfect. And contact information? >> Yeah. Uh, you can contact me on LinkedIn, Luca Borani, or by email, luczipshot.ai. Uh, super simple. So, I'm super available. >> Okay. Fantastic. So, at the top of the hour, we always ask our guest if they know a misfit. >> Yeah. Actually there's this friend of mine uh it's called Mick uh is a very great marketer Italian marketer he has like uh thousands of students as well big companies uh yeah I I will make the intro Mikosentino is the name >> okay very good all right so I am going to remove you uh don't go away because we've got to upload your episode but I'll remove you now and we'll talk to you later >> absolutely thank you very much guys. >> Thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks, Luka. >> Norm, just imagine if you could turn me into a chatbot and then you you could just you could just hit mute anytime. You could just ask me. You could you could get all your questions in and and I don't have a chance to answer. I mean, just think if I was just a chat be >> I would constantly interrupt you. I would say bubble bubble bubble stop. [laughter] What about this? A little knots going [laughter] >> Why does your voice get on your nerves too? Bubble bubble bubble interrupt. [laughter] >> No, I mean this stuff uh as he just explained, it's come a long way from where it was. Um >> Oh, yeah. >> And it's it's getting more powerful and it's something that I think almost everybody uh I mean after talking with him right here, I'm like, man, I need to go add Zip Chat to a couple of my sites right now. uh and just test test this [music] out. Um that that's that uh especially if you're using Shopify like he said uh you know we have another episode with Scott Cunningham who's like one of the top Shopify guys so it'll be interesting to ask him if he's seen anything uh in regards to h how chat is making a difference but the seamless plug into Shopify should be a no-brainer for everybody. Yeah, absolutely. The episode really, you know, gives us some thought. Well, the back end and the front end. Um there's lots of opportunities here. So, yeah, can't wait to look into uh Zip Chat. So, Zip Zip [music] Chat.ai. Yep. Ziphat.ai. You know, another smart thing to do is to always listen to the Marketing Misfits podcast because if you're not listening to the podcast, you're missing out on some cool stuff cuz we're here every single Tuesday. Ain't that right with that? Ain't that right, Norm? With a new episode. >> And and you don't want to miss out on Kevin's cool new shades. >> That's right. Yeah. If you're listening to this and you're not watching it on YouTube, you can't or Shopify video, you can't see my cool new my cool new shades. Uh, and so check us out on YouTube. It's at marketingmisfits.co. We'll take the links there will take you to uh [music] take you to to YouTube. Or you can actually just go straight to YouTube. Type marketing misfits and it'll it'll pop up and uh we have 70 some uh probably 80 some odd episodes in there uh with some some really amazing uh people uh and some really amazing subjects. [music] So, pick a couple and listen to them the next time you're driving around the car, taking a trip, you're flying somewhere, taking one of those 400 flights that Lucas taken. Um, put on put on the headset and, uh, listen to the marketing misfits and, uh, Norm's voice will put you right to sleep. [music] >> There we go. There we go. All right. Good night, everybody. [laughter] All right. We'll see you later. >> We'll see you next time. Take care. [music]