Why Brands Don’t Love Resellers (And How to Win Them Over): Insights from Robyn Johnson

Why Brands Don’t Love Resellers (And How to Win Them Over): Insights from Robyn Johnson Speaker 1: When you look at wider digital marketing, they'll talk a lot about search intent or the intent of the user. The kind of question that you ask Siri versus the kind of question you ask Google versus the kind of a question you ask Alexa are all different. We have a different intent when we use those different search engines. When we're using Reddit, we ask a different question than we might ask Siri. Where is your customer and where is their buying intent? And that's kind of where you, so there's not going to be a one size fits all answer. Unknown Speaker: Welcome fellow entrepreneurs to the Amazon Seller School podcast, where we talk about Amazon and how you can use it to build an eCommerce empire, a side hustle, and anything in between. And now your host, Todd Welch. Speaker 2: What's going on, everybody? Welcome to another episode. Today, I've got Robyn Johnson on the show, and we're going to be diving into understanding why brands don't like resellers. And if you are a reseller, what you can do to make yourself stand out and maybe make them like you a little bit, or if you're a brand out there, maybe some of the upsides of why you should work with a reseller, why you shouldn't work with a reseller. But before we dive into that, let's go ahead and read through Robyn's bio here. A lot of experience in the background here, but Robyn is heralded as one of the country's foremost leaders on selling and marketing products on Amazon. She's been a guest on shows like Entrepreneur on Fire, which is really cool. I'd love to be on that show. And Confessions of a Marketer and speaks regularly at events like SMX London, PubCon and Prosper. As the co-founder of Marketplace Blueprint since June 2015, she has driven the agency's profitability, managing high volumes of Amazon advertising spend as part of the Amazon Advertising Verified Partner Program. Her expertise extends to being an Amazon business coach and consultant since 2013, and she has worked with businesses from startups to grossing over $18 million, helping them navigate and succeed in eCommerce. Robyn's journey as an Amazon and eCommerce consultant expert since January 2013 includes founding the Unstoppable Amazon Academy, authoring the Amazon best-selling book, The Unlikely Entrepreneur, something I'd definitely like to do, write a book here at some point, so congrats on that. and hosting the Unstoppable Entrepreneur Show. She also started Robin's Nest Resale in April 2011, so definitely an OG in the e-commerce space. But she grew that from just $100 starting to becoming a notable Amazon seller, which led to special recognition from Amazon for her sales volume. With over a decade of experience selling on Amazon, eBay and other eCommerce platforms, Robyn is a seasoned expert in the field. So lots of experience, Robyn. Congrats on all that and I appreciate you joining the show. Speaker 1: Thanks. It's been a crazy fun journey that I could never have expected or anticipated and I've met some really amazing people on the way. So I'm just overall grateful for everything. Speaker 2: Absolutely. Like I said in there, writing the book is awesome. I'd love to do that. Entrepreneur on Fire, I'm curious how you got onto that podcast. Speaker 1: It's a longer process but it was a lot of fun being on that show. It was really fun to record and it's definitely something that holds a place in my heart. It was definitely worth the time. Speaker 2: Awesome. I've definitely listened to my fair share of those episodes and definitely a fun podcast to listen to and very cool to be on there. So why don't we just start a little bit on your background. Where'd you grow up at? Speaker 1: So I grew up in Southern California and anybody that grew up in California has to designate because they're like two different countries. And then I moved out to Arizona in my high school years. And so that's where I met my husband. I've lived in Arizona since like 1995. And so we've like, we've just I love it here. I love the sunsets. And I, you know, went from, you know, We're doing some things that were very not entrepreneurial to where I am now. Speaker 2: Yeah, Arizona is kind of a cool place. Most people just think of Phoenix in the desert there. Phoenix is pretty cool, but you just go a little north of there and you've got beautiful mountains and lots of different landscapes in Arizona. Speaker 1: Yeah, we love it. We're in Phoenix, but we go visit lots of other places and it's a short ride to Disneyland, short ride to the ocean, so it's a pretty great place to live. Speaker 2: Yeah, and house prices are pretty decent there as well, which is nice compared to California. Speaker 1: Yeah, they've gotten a little more expensive, but it's definitely still a great place. Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. You moved over to Phoenix and you said in 1995 you moved over to Arizona? Speaker 1: Yes. I went in Scottsdale for a while and then I lived in a small town on the border between Arizona and California for a couple of years. I've been living in the Phoenix metro area for my entire adult life. Speaker 2: Very good. In 2011, that's when you got started in eCommerce, right? Or were you doing anything before that? Speaker 1: I had done stuff. I had done websites and I was the webmaster for my school district in high school. I had played with internet, but I had not done any eCommerce. I was working at a church and I was a youth minister. When you work for a church, they say the benefits are out of this world because the pay is not. And my son got sick and it wasn't like do whatever it takes to get him better. It was like, how do I keep this kid alive and not lose the house? We were just scared all the time. The air conditioner would break or the car would make a funny noise and I would just pull the blanket over my head and cry because when you work for the church, it's not like you can go to another conference to get a raise. It's kind of stuck. My friend took me to the Dave Ramsey thing and I couldn't even afford the $100 Financial Peace University. We started doing that. We got our emergency fund and then I can still remember the 520s in my hand because I had listened to the episode where a lady was We started buying things at garage sales and selling them on Craigslist. And I was like, I could do that. I could do that. And so I took the 520s out and we started buying things. It was a great time to start a business because I had a toddler and an infant. So I was taking them with me going from garage sales to garage sales, cleaning up while I still was working my job at the church. We grew that. We started selling on Craigslist, then eBay, and then Amazon. We sold on eBay and Amazon for a very long time. And we grew that to, you know, a million dollars in just a couple of years. And that was before, you know, selling at high volumes was as easy as it is now. There was no advertising. There was a lot of like trudging uphill in the snow both ways, but it was also the wild, wild west. And so we got to try a lot of things and learn with the platform. And so in like about 2014, I started speaking and coaching high volume sellers. Focusing on profitability, we started, you know, moving more from an arbitrage model into wholesale. And then about 2015, we started focusing on building up the agency. And that's what our primary thing that we do now is, is we are a full service agency that works with brands from brand new emerging, all the way we work to up to publicly traded companies, and a variety of Shark Tank companies. Speaker 2: Very good. Yeah, 2015. It's crazy to think that 10 years, you're going to have your 10-year anniversary this year, 2025. How time flies. Speaker 1: It feels like it's been a lifetime and then I remember that when we got the idea to do this, my daughter was like little itty bitty and so I'm like, oh, it has been a lifetime. It's been my daughter's lifetime. Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm about the same. I started in 2014. So about the same time as you started your agency, I really started getting going selling wholesale and being exactly what we're going to be talking about today, being a reseller of other people's products and still doing it, still having a lot of fun, definitely a lot of changes. I'm in that time on Amazon. But I like that you mentioned Dave Ramsey. I'm definitely a fan of his as well. I've got his The Total Money Makeover book right behind me here. He's a great guy for people getting started, trying to get their life in order and figure out finances and everything else. He has a lot of really good advice. Speaker 1: Yes, yes. There's definitely, especially if you're an employee and you're trying to manage that specific amount of income. It was definitely a big help and a big part of how we got to where we are now, for sure. Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. He's great. If you're out there listening, you're struggling with finances, definitely check out Dave Ramsey, Total Money Maker. There are a lot of good tips in there. As you get bigger and bigger in business, there's some of them that you can kind of move away from. But it's great for somebody just getting going or the average person out there for sure. Speaker 1: For businesses, I really recommend Mike Michalowicz's Profit First. It's basically the envelope system for business and if you're not analytical and you know you're not, if you're very analytical and you check QuickBooks every day, don't bother with it. It'll just annoy you. It's not worth it. If you are a creative, visionary entrepreneur that doesn't like to get in your books every day, I wish I had found it sooner. It really transformed our business. Speaker 2: Yep, yep. I've got that one behind me here somewhere as well. So definitely a good book as well. I would recommend the same. So with Bluebird, what all different services are you guys providing at Bluebird? Speaker 1: At Marketplace Blueprint, we offer full channel management. So we do everything from creating the listings to running the advertising to Hey, Amazon, this is not a sexual wellness product. This is a baby spoon. It's always been a baby spoon. Things like, you know, how planning out with brands, how they're going to incorporate influencers or like how we're going to manage being on Oprah's Favorite Things. We've also managed some other marketplaces like Walmart and things for specific brands. Basically, our goal is to help make Amazon more tenable for brands that even if they do a lot of DTC, Amazon is a whole different place and a full-time job. We try to make that lift a little easier. We also work with a bunch of resellers. There are some resellers that have hired us. We basically handle the advertising, the listing optimization for the brands that they have access to brand registry with. Speaker 2: Very good. So a little bit of resellers, a lot of brands, I'm sure. Do you work with a lot of non-Amazon first brands or brands that maybe don't know much or anything about Amazon? Speaker 1: That's kind of where we specialize is we help make, we take non, non Amazon native brands what we call them and help them manage it because you know a lot of things you know I always tell them that selling on Amazon is a little bit like Alice in Wonderland. It looks like a butterfly but it's actually a bread and butterfly. You know everything's just a little different and so we help them navigate that and explain why We have a government-owned company that has a physical product that works with us and trying to explain why Amazon needs a driver's license to upload their insurance requirements and things like that. That's kind of where we help them navigate those things. Speaker 2: Okay. Yeah, for sure. Those are my favorite brands to work with myself. I don't have an agency per se, but I do brand partnerships. So I partner with brands and do very similar things As you do. So those are always the best ones to work with because you can do a lot of good stuff for them and really help them sell their products better. Speaker 1: Yes. Speaker 2: So I guess let's dive right into the question. As a reseller, obviously, I want all the brands to work with me. Every brand should work with me. No, just kidding. There's a lot of reasons that brands wouldn't want to work with resellers. So why don't we go ahead and dive into them as to why would a brand maybe want to work with a reseller or why they wouldn't. Speaker 1: I think the first elephant is the room. It seems like I'm playing both sides because I'm helping brands control resellers, but then I'm also working with resellers. In general, when we're on both sides, if we're working with a reseller and somebody bought in good faith, they bought authentic goods, we're not in the habit of trying to litigate that. We have the brands handle that off Amazon. But where Amazon can be a hassle for resellers, how resellers can be a hassle for brands are, let's say we have a brand that they really want to focus on growing on Amazon. And sometimes, especially, you know, post-COVID, maybe they hired a bunch of people, they're not having that anticipated growth. So, if they don't get that anticipated growth, somebody is going to get laid off. So, you know, or a group of people will be laid off or the company might even fold. So, they need to get, you know, the revenue up to a certain point. And, you know, in order for them to kind of manage the channel and to grow that channel and get that customer acquisition, we're going to need to run ads and we need to be able to control the listings. You know, before we talk about how it impacts growth, One thing that it can be is it also can be a liability. Not because resellers ever intend it to be or I'm sure that there are some somewhere. But 99, all the resellers I know and love would never do it intentionally. But they might say a product is gluten-free when it's technically not. Or they might say that it's good, this medication is good for ear pain when it's technically not. And so that can become a big issue, especially if a company has a big legal team. It can be an issue if they've been creating a bunch of like bundles and then there's a recall and that recall gets missed on Amazon because the UPC isn't tied to the UPC that has the recall. So it can come a safety and liability issue. And I will be honest, most of the non-Amazon native brands have no idea, even Amazon, even though they know, right? They don't really believe that people do reselling at the scale that really is happening. And so, you know, a lot of times brands will be like, why would they, you know, these are, you know, horrible people that are stealing our stuff or they're getting a fix. And we have to kind of explain that, no, this is just, it's just a different model. And we have to explain that, you know, they're probably not getting counterfeit items. They're probably buying it. Oh, you're in Walmart and that spike happened at this time of year and you're this kind of product. That was a seasonal reset. So they probably got it there. So helping them to kind of understand that or understand, you know, because they'll be like, there's no way they could have gotten this. The number of times where a brand has said there's no way they could have gotten this legitimately. And then after we dig into it, we're like this way, this way, this way, this way. Right. So it's helping them to understand because if you don't understand, we're eating and breathing this space all the time. So we totally see, but for them, it feels dangerous because it's unknown. So, you know, being upfront with them, yes, it can lose you the sale, but it can also make it so you become a really trusted partner. And a lot of the resellers that we work with, they did the brave thing and they had those conversations with the brands and they were upfront with them. And they've developed a skill set to offer those brands, which makes them really valuable because for a lot of brands, They don't have the time, the resources to really manage Amazon effectively. And so if a brand is in that position and they don't want to pay for a full service agency or their margins just don't allow that, Then they might decide that a reseller is a better option. But we have other brands that say like these hero products, we really need to control the growth of, but we don't have enough ad spend resources to really cover all of these. So we're fine with resellers carrying these groups of products. There are lots of ways to work with brands and have them be joyful in the way that partnership works. Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. Unfortunately, for good reason, resellers have a very bad rap on Amazon because there's so many out there that just don't care. Anything about what they sell or how they sell it or anything. I've never tried to be that. I always try to sell products that I have some kind of connection with and I care about and have moved very heavily into the brand partnerships that you talked about and working with brands that they don't know Amazon, they don't want to know Amazon and so I can just I do it all for them and that is really helpful to brands that are looking for that. But then at the same time, the brands who do want to do it, working with someone like you guys can go a long way to be able to get everything set up because you and I have been doing this for a decade or more and so Amazon, it's easy to sell on Amazon but it's not simple. It's very complicated. Things always go wrong. So having someone in their back pocket that can help them is kind of required at this point. I'm not sure you could even do it without Either having a reseller help you, having an agency help you or hiring someone internally to be able to do it. Speaker 1: Yeah, because there's so many weird quirks and you know, there's things that they're going to run into that are completely unexpected or things that are unique to Amazon. So, you know, like everybody's been to the grocery store and seen comparable with Tylenol. Well, for a brand to understand, you're not allowed to say that on Amazon, but you are allowed to say it at Kroger. It can be a little difficult, right? So we kind of help them be like, Oh, I know that antimicrobial sock is antimicrobial. We can't say that, because then we need an EPA registration number, right? So it's all the weird quirky things, you know, like, yes, your item is a action figure, but it's for adults. If we put it into Today, we're going to talk about how to sell to DOLs that will trigger a CPSC certification. If it's for people over 15 or 14, we can definitely fight that, but this is what we're going to need in order to fight that to get you in that category if that documentation is triggered. Speaker 2: Yeah, that documentation stuff has really thrown a wrench into a lot of stuff. A brand that wanted to sell their products themselves and started updating the listings and this was in the supplements category and all of their listings got taken down for a very similar reason to antimicrobial or something like that. Little keywords that trigger the takedowns of the listings. Speaker 1: We had a pet company that came to us and they said they brought on like somebody from Fiverr to help them optimize their listings and they sold cages for like rabbits and hamsters. And so the person who did it did the keyword research and just wrote them from there. But there's different widths of bars for different kinds of those creatures. And so they were all mixed up. And so it just devastated their reviews. People were angry that, you know, like my, my, my hamster died because of you, you know, it was, you know, so having somebody that really knows what they're doing is important because it's not just like. Speaker 2: Hey, Amazon sellers. Tired of losing money on storage and shipping fees? Well, Amazon Storage Pros is here to take the headache out of logistics. We manage everything from inventory and creating efficient shipping plans to working with 3PLs and Amazon's AWD so that you can focus on growing your business. Start with a free storage cost audit and discover exactly where you're overspending and how to fix it. Don't let logistics eat into your profits. Visit AmazonStoragePros.com. That's AmazonStoragePros.com to get your free storage cost audit and start saving today. And now back to the show. Speaker 1: 10 years ago, it was basically like, you know, if you build it, they will come. Now, it is a lot more complicated. There's a lot more nuance to think about. And Amazon cares a lot more about things like compliance than they ever have before. Speaker 2: Yeah, well, the government's really starting to crack down on them for some of that thing. If you look at any of the areas where Amazon cracks down on, typically there's some kind of push You know, by the FCC or the FCA? No. FDA. FDA. Or, you know, there was some bad press or something where an Amazon jumps on it. So Amazon's feeling a lot of heat. They're the monster business out there now. You know, they're like the Microsoft that got broken apart back in the day. That's Amazon now. And so they're having to fight and put out all these fires all the time and a lot of legitimate people get hit with that as amazon tries to take down the bad actors and you know it is causing brands to change and because amazon has grown and matured there's a lot of brands that wouldn't have given amazon to. Speaker 1: Two minutes of notice that are now using it as you know one of their top three distribution channels. So there's a lot more eyes and a lot bigger brands that are on here which changes the game overall for brands of all sizes. Speaker 2: Yeah, so for the resellers that are out there and since you have a lot of experience working with brands and resellers as well some, what kind of things do you see that sets apart the resellers that are successful at partnering with brands and growing them versus the ones who are not? Speaker 1: So because you know I'm sure you guys have noticed the tightening around UPCs matching in GS1 and the brand matching. Personally, I would say that you want to focus on brands that you can have access to brand registry. As they tighten these compliance things, you might find that, oh, maybe that word was fine before, but now they're asking for a change or maybe they're asking for something else. And so without the ability to change those listings, my concern would be, are you going to get stuck with a bunch of inventory you have to try to sell on another marketplace? And let's just face it, you know, there's no other marketplace you're going to be able to move things at the same velocity. So that would be something that I would suggest. The brands that really love their resellers, they're handling a lot of helping them handle and navigate that strategy piece of it. And they're having us run their ads. And one of the things that can be difficult for a brand if they have unauthorized resellers Let's say they're like, we really need to grow this channel and we have these products. If we try to run ads and there's resellers on there, it becomes really unpredictable because if the brand doesn't have the buy box, we can't run sponsored products. It also makes it complicated for the agency. If we're being held to, you have to have like 18 percent tacos or eight percent tacos, then We can't even say, well, that reseller only has five. Let's run some sponsored brands and try to lift all boats and get them to sell through because there's no way for us to prove to the brand that actually helped the acceleration, right? So that can be a really big issue as well. But in order to get these products to where they can sell at the rate and start to outrank some of the private label sellers that maybe are kind of knocking off their products or have a similar product, They really have to funnel that and focus on ranking those products for their most important keywords. And without the access to ads, it becomes very, very difficult to do. And a lot of these bigger corporations, they have specific KPIs that need to be met. To match the KPIs that are being held accountable in Google and Meta as well. So trying to navigate that becomes really difficult with resellers. And the other really big issue is reference price. So we have a big OTC medicine company that we work with. And they have a bunch of resellers that are on the listing. And so they were trying to get rid of it because the items that they had were getting close to the edge of that expiration. So they all lowered their price really low. They all sold out. So you'd think that, OK, now it's not a problem for them. It's been a couple of months now. We're still dealing with the fact that because they all sold out over a period of time. So it wasn't like all at once. Um, but resellers, if they're selling well below MSRP, they can change the reference price. So we haven't, we weren't able to run deals for that over the holidays because of the resellers. And then that can make it and trying to explain that to somebody that's, you know, the CEO of a large company, uh, can be a little bit difficult. Speaker 2: Yeah. We had a situation with the brand that we work with that we had a hijacker on the listing. It took about a month to really get them off permanently. They were selling about a half of the price that it was supposed to be sold at. Come Black Friday, we couldn't really run the Black Friday deal unless we went really low on the price because they were selling it at $14.99 when it was supposed to be sold at $34.95. And so it just kind of ruins your marketing plan. That's with a hijacker, but the same kind of thing. What can happen with resellers clearancing out products and things like that? Speaker 1: If you remember Pillow Pets, there was so much clearance that went on, they had to completely redo their line. We've worked with smaller companies at trade shows more like Astra. A couple of years ago, there was a couple of really big wholesalers that would buy pallets and pallets of stuff. But if it didn't move as expected, they would just slash the price. And this was before reference price was really a thing, but what happened is the next trade show, they would go, they'd spend the $10,000, $20,000 to be at that trade show. And then people would look it up on Amazon and be like, I can get it on Amazon for $2 more than wholesale. Why would I buy this to sell it in my store? And so it would actually, it took several of the companies that we worked with completely out of business because they weren't able, you know, a small company doesn't have the cash reserves to wait that out. And, you know, it can be a really, really big issue. So, yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah, we reported on the news a couple weeks ago. Every Friday we do the week's news. But there's a company, Flycatchers, that make a smart sketcher toy where it like puts the image on the paper and you can sketch. But apparently they had three truckloads full of their products stolen and then resellers were buying these products, hopefully unknowing that they were stolen. Reselling them at a significant lower price in Q4. So it basically wiped out their sales for Q4 pretty much completely because if they match the price, they're basically losing money on that. So that's another thing that gives resellers a bad name, selling stolen products. I had a coaching call where someone got their account shut down for selling stolen products and he didn't know it and he was trying to figure out what went wrong essentially. And so basically the moral of that story was don't find your suppliers and buy on Telegram or WhatsApp, something like that. But yeah, all these things, it drives brands insane. And as resellers, if we don't put ourselves in their shoes, We don't necessarily think about these things all the time. We're just trying to sell and make money. It's kind of like a distributor, right? I say distributors sell on logic where brands sell on emotion. As resellers, we're just logically trying to sell more products where brands have this emotional connection to their product. They want to make sure everything's perfect, everything's running good, maintain control. And all that good stuff. So we got to walk a mile in their shoes, so to speak. Speaker 1: And one thing on that note that resellers can do to provide a big value is, you know, a lot of established brands, they're not doing it the way that private labels. So they don't, you know, run the numbers on a tool and determine how many units to sell. They say, people like this. So let's make this. And, you know, the first time I saw the big companies, I was like, what? You know, but one thing that you can provide as a reseller is helping them to do that research to see, you know, yes, that makes a logical product extension. But on Amazon, that space is really saturated. So if you're doing it for Amazon, this isn't going to launch well. And, you know, like this is really competitive or, you know, there's not enough volume for that, giving them that data and providing that data. Helium 10 can be really valuable. Yes, Helium 10 is out there for everybody, but Helium 10 can also be pretty overwhelming for a new user because there are so many tools. So, you know, I'm always very afraid when we're like, this came from a tool, like, you know, I don't have magic, you know, so you be honest with that. But I think that that really helps. And then the other thing you can do is if you like, let's say that a brand is really focused on trying to grow a specific product line that you would like to sell, you see that they're not running ads, and you know that you could provide a lot of value. Ask if you could have an Amazon exclusive for a specific group. Now, it's important to do this. If you want to do this, you can't be selling on the variation if they're selling ads, if they're doing ads. Because if they're doing ads on the variation, it will mess up the ad numbers because people will click through blue and buy purple. And so you actually won't even be able to prove, even if you are running ads, that you are making that difference. But if you kind of create like a separate product, it can be a separate size, it can be a different pack, you know, get something with the brand's approval, they buy the UPC, you'll have to have a higher MOQ, minimum order quantity. If you really feel confident in your skill set, that can be something to, you can demonstrate that you can provide value and then after that you can say, well, now can I take over some of these slow moving SKUs for you? Sometimes people just want to go get engaged right away. Any brand that's going to be fun to work with, in my experience, does not want to get engaged on the first date. Inevitably, every client that I've brought on as an agency that's like, look, it's our date today, ah! And I was like, wow, that's the easiest close ever. Three months later, I'm always like, why did I not follow my process? Because it's there for a reason, you know? Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. It's important to put yourselves in their shoes, like I mentioned, and understand what they're going through. The ads thing is a super important thing because we battle with that for some of the products that we sell for brands as well if there's other people that are selling on there. Sometimes I think the ads are supposed to shut off if you don't have the buy box. But I don't think that's always the case. I think there's some bleed through there where, you know, the ads will still be running even if you're not in the buy box. Speaker 1: One sponsored brands and sponsored display will 100% keep going even if you're not in the buy box. And so that's what makes it a little harder with a rotating buy box because you could think, oh, well, they'll just run when they have their turn. But one, like, we have to turn on and off and turn on and off. Which isn't really possible because of Amazon's delayed reporting for us to do that. And then the other thing is that if we're, like let's say a brand hadn't been focused on Amazon and a competitor was winning for their brand name, what we have to do is we have to outsell that competitor on that brand name. So if we don't have consistent ads to be able to drive that ranking, we're just setting their ad money on fire. And so it's not a good experience for anybody We can't get the results that they need in order to keep going. And that can be a great proposition for you as a reseller say, you know, if you see a brand that's not winning for their own branded search, you could say we can run some ad campaigns that will help you gain that spot back because right now people are coming to Amazon looking to buy your product and they're going someplace else and they might never come back. Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Ads are super important for your big products and if the resellers are messing that up, it's just gonna anger the brand. So don't be one of those resellers if you're somebody trying to build brand partnerships. And I like what you said about, you know, don't contact a brand and be like, give me a complete exclusive for your product that's selling 5,000 units a month. You know, on your first phone call, it's like when you get a sales phone call on the phone, are you like, okay, yeah, here's the deed to my house and everything else? No, you're hanging out most of the time. But yeah, start with the slow selling one. You see one that's selling, you know, 10 a month or 20 a month that should be selling 100. Prove yourself, quadruple the sales, and then be like, hey, now maybe let me try some of these other ones as well. Speaker 1: And, you know, if you're honest and upfront, then that helps kind of build the relationship and you can kind of take credit for the work that you're doing. And then having that access to brand registry really protects your investment in their products, right? So, you know, that's, you know, you're able to help them through those listings, suspensions, or all of that stuff, right? And then the other thing is that as you're working with these brands, if you're up front right away, you don't have to worry about getting found out, right? So, especially when I first started wholesale, I didn't come out and say, I sell on Amazon right away. It took me a while to start the conversations with that. And I think there's a video for me somewhere saying, don't do that, right? Because at the time, We didn't understand things, the marketplace was very different. But I will tell you that now having been on the other side of the table, I can hear the sense of betrayal and disappointment when they've had eight conversations with you, they thought you were friends and then they found out that you were selling even though their agreement says not on Amazon and that you're the problem and that's the reason why Suzanne had to be let go. Now whether or not that was the reason Suzanne had to be let go or not, That's their experience of it. It can leave them very hurt and then that hurts the whole industry because it perpetuates that you can't trust resellers. Speaker 2: Yeah. The reputation, I've preached that all the way back to when I first started doing the podcast and trying to help people. Be honest, be upfront, and build relationships. Don't be in it for the short term. Be in it for the long term. If you can get on a first name basis with the owner of the company, And get to know them, connect on a level other than just reselling their products. That's a relationship that you're gonna be able to sell their products for a decade or more, perhaps, and continue helping them grow their business. You gotta be someone who's helping that business, not just reselling products. Speaker 1: And there are lots of agencies besides mine that will work with resellers to help manage ad spend. Ad spend for resellers is very different than running an ad spend for a private label company or an established brand. So as long as somebody has had experience with that, you know, if you might say, well, I don't have the skillset to do creative core listings, or I don't have the skillset to do A plus content or ads, there are places that you can help. And then oftentimes, we find that brands are more than happy to subsidize that cost. Especially if it means that they can kind of get that uniformity across platforms and have the consistent branding and experience that will help them. Because most brands do know that customers do window shop on Amazon. It's not just one way. It's both directions. Sometimes people will do product research. On Amazon and then buy in store. So having that is something that oftentimes you might be willing to subsidize and provides a lot more value. So the next person can't just come on, you know, out front underneath you for like a slower, lower margin. Speaker 2: Yeah. That's one thing that I thought was pretty cool when we first talked before the podcast that you guys are actually are working with resellers and helping resellers who have brand partnerships because Yeah, you're right. Like we said, we've both been doing it for 10 years, so we've learned a lot of stuff. It's not easy to learn all that, especially if you're just getting started and or you don't want to learn all that, I guess. Working with someone like you guys and bringing those connections with the brands with you to basically become their agency Kind of through you guys and keep growing their business that way. Speaker 1: Yeah. And you know, those things can be kind of added to your portfolio and your case studies and all those things can really help as you start to work with larger brands. I know that it is hard to find a good reselling partner, harder than it was 10 years ago. And you know, so I'm not trying to minimize how difficult it is to do that. And honestly, I was a little nervous about this episode because I don't want to seem like a hypocrite, like I'm playing both sides, but I have really seen both sides of it and I can understand both sides of it. I do my best to translate and to make sure that people are treated fairly. I hope that's coming across. Speaker 2: For sure. It depends on the brand and how involved the brand wants to be. If the brand wants to be semi-involved, Working with an agency is great. If the brand is someone that I don't know how to use a computer, I don't want to know how to use a computer, I just want to sell my products, to retail stores and stuff like that, then that's kind of a situation where it's perfect for a reseller to partner with that brand and just take care of everything for them. Speaker 1: You'd be surprised. There are some brands that you might think are really big brand, but it's because they're using co-packers or because of a licensing deal or something along those lines. They might, this might not even be their primary occupation. It might be a side thing. So they just don't have the resources to go all the way across and handle all of these pieces. So, you know, if they're not able to really focus on it, that's what you can really offer. And then if they are ready to really focus on it, then working in tandem, say like, you know, even if somebody is ready to go full force on Amazon, it's rare for us, even with the publicly traded companies that we work at, very large companies, for them to have enough allocated ad spend right out of the gate to handle all of their SKUs. So, you know, you can, you can always try to start things. If you're working together and you're not causing an issue and you're building up kind of that relationship with them, that's, it's still a possibility. Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. It's a, It's a balancing act for sure and finding out what the best way to handle the brand is and what exactly the brand needs and just go from there. I have a ton of fun with it. You sound like you have a ton of fun with it as well. What else haven't we talked about for not only resellers but brands that are possibly looking to deal with resellers or hire an agency or something like that? Speaker 1: So when we're talking with brands, what we want to do is we want to make sure that we're stopping any distribution leaks. So if people are getting things from one place and they're buying authentic goods, We need to not be focused on getting them to stop. We need to focus on like making sure, let them sell through what they purchase in good faith and focus on stopping the leaks going forward. Now, sometimes that's really easy. You know, we can handle it pretty quickly. Maybe it's just, you know, they never vetted resellers out before. We just need to change some policies, giving those resellers time to adjust. People are getting it primarily through arbitrage. That becomes a little more complicated, where maybe we need to create an Amazon-only SKU, or we need to create something else in a way that allows them to have a SKU that they're able to control that buy box, that ad price, that reference price. Sometimes we're even able to put the resellers thing aside, but it really depends on the company, what their lead time is for production, If their products are made in the U.S. or if they're made in other countries, what the molds are like. So it can be a pretty complicated thing. Sometimes we'll look at changing packaging so that it's clear. You know, maybe to discourage your reseller to make it a little less profitable for them. So things that people are buying in good faith. It's just, you know, doing things to discourage without taking anybody's investment and turning it into dust. Because we don't want to do that either. We want to try to find fair ways. And those people are customers too. So we want to try to find fair ways to make it work. Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing to keep in mind is that, you know, technically The resale sellers are not doing anything wrong per se, right? They're well within the law to resell the products that they get. Obviously, a lot of brands don't see it that way. They go the route of trying to say that the warranty or something is not valid, which I'm surprised that hasn't really been tested in court yet with the number of You know, legal letters and stuff that go around with that. Speaker 1: That's not something we really encourage brands to do that. We have, we kind of avoid that altogether because it's, I feel like there's more effective and more fair ways to handle it. There's always a solution. It's just, but it has to be at a case by case. There's not like a, if you have a reseller problem, you should do X. It's, there are 16 different things. And the first thing is to identify where the inventory is coming from. And what is your ability to change that? So if you are really proud of your Lego and you're having a problem with arbitrage sellers, you could say, Hey, Walmart, we're changing the UPC on this. We're going to do this and you're going to take it and you're going to like it. If you're a small brand that got into Walmart and you're just counting your blessings, you know, changing the packaging or the UPCs might not be an option from where you're sitting. That shelf space is hard to get. So, you know, we might have to find something else. But it's, you know, the first step is always identify the distribution link. But identify the distribution gap and then figuring out what can we do to stop that inventory going forward or what can we do to create an Amazon only SKU. And then working with the resellers that you already have relationships with to help you as you are kind of trying to build up your focus and try to get your products to rank. And there are some brands that say, look, we're willing to do the investment to get the listings up, you know, stood back up to get them, in compliance to get them, you know, to be a match for the rest of our brand and, you know, even to get them to rank, but we don't want to monitor, we don't want to do this indefinitely. And so once we get to a certain point, we'd like to bring those resellers on. And have ads be run at a regular level or like a maintenance level, just using sponsored brands kind of as a defensive piece. So there can be opportunities, but it's making sure that brands are able to see you as a potential partner instead of an impediment. Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting. Do you see that very often? Brands doing that where they're optimizing their listings and getting them going and then handing them off to resellers? Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of companies that we don't even manage their ad spend. All we're doing is fixing the listings, helping them with compliance issues, and then they really want their resellers to handle it. Because there's a lot of things with Amazon, you know, storage fees and inventory placement and all of that stuff that can be a little complicated if they don't have a lot of resources. So even if you have a full channel management agency, there's still a lot of fulfillment and logistics and resellers are amazing at that. So it can still be a good place. We've had big brands that have said, you know, we really need to get these resellers off but leave these guys alone because we have a long-standing relationship. They believed in us when we were nothing and so it's important to us for us to honor those relationships and we love those kind of working with those kinds of brands and that have That commitment to the people that believed in them early on in their growth. It does happen, but I'm not going to say that that is every brand by any way, shape or form. Speaker 2: Yeah, there is a cash flow benefit to selling to resellers as well because you've got that invoice that's out there. You're going to get paid most likely on X date. And that cash is just gonna come in. Maybe even they're paying up front for some brands. Hopefully, for the reseller side, hopefully you're getting net 30, net 45, net 60. We're longer, but that cash flow can be easier just selling in bulk than selling individuals on Amazon and getting that disbursement every couple of weeks and not knowing all the time what that's going to be. Speaker 1: Yeah. When we have brands, let's say they're coming from 1P and they're coming from Vendor Central and they need to move to Seller Central or they're going to cut off resellers, so a group of resellers. One thing we like to remind them on that cash flow side is you're not going to get the sale from Amazon purchasing or these resellers from purchasing for a little bit. Then you're going to need to let them sell out. And then you're going to start selling, but there's still going to be another gap where you have money in reserve or you haven't hit your distribution payout. So they need to have enough money to handle that whole arc. And so for them to do that cold turkey for everybody is really, really scary. So working with some trusted partners, we can say like, let's, you know, some of the best relationships we've had with brands is they've been like, I've been burned with three agencies and two resellers. You know, this is the last shot I'm giving it. And what we've been able to do is say, let's start with something small. Let's start with, you know, two of your, you know, with five of your slowest selling SKUs, we can show that we're making progress and then you'll trust us with the top five and then we can kind of work from You know, the outside in working on expanding those SKUs over time and expanding that contract in the scope of work. So they're not, you know, it makes me nervous when I pay for marketing services and somebody is like, oh yeah, $15, $15,000, all your product problems will be solved. It's like, well, how do I know? How do I know it's a lot of money? So starting, you know, if we're able to partner with a reseller, especially if they've been burned a couple of times, that can help ease things a little bit, as long as the reseller is willing to honor and willing to understand that at some point they might determine that, you know, they, you know, they might not have room for that reseller at some point in the future. But, you know, you get to make CableLesson a shining and use that as a great case study for a brand that you've worked with in the past. Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. Now, especially this year, the second half of this year, there seems to be kind of a little bit of an exodus from Amazon when it comes to resellers and even some brands that have been outspoken about trying to get off of Amazon. I don't know what percentage is actually doing it, but a lot more people are talking about it. Moving away from Amazon, so I guess the first question there is what do you see as the future for resellers? And then number two, where do you like to send brands outside of Amazon to kind of hedge their bets as Amazon just keeps ramping up the fees and trying to take more and more of your margin? Speaker 1: Well, you know, so Amazon is maturing as a marketplace which means you need a more thoughtful, more strategic ad strategy. You have to have your compliance. There's a lot of things that made it fun and wild, wild west and those are going away as this is becoming a more traditional marketing channel which means that it's bringing more marketing professionals in who know things about programmatic ads and attribution and all of those things. Even as a full service agency, my husband and Nate and I run their agency together and we were just talking about how scope creep is such a big issue for agencies like ours because there's always something else. There's always a new program. Well, we offered A-plus, well now A-plus premium. There's just so much. But when people are looking to diversify, first thing we need to do is be honest. So there is no other marketplace at the point of this recording that matches Amazon for a majority of sellers. You can sell on Walmart, you can sell on Target, you can sell on Shoei, and depending on the kind of brand, there's eBay, there's Fair, there's Mercado Libre, if you sell items in South America and Mexico and those places. There are a lot of different options, but very few of them are going to completely replace. So part of that is self-insuring, building up your cash reserves. Part of that is maintaining and staying current with Amazon's policies, keeping your eye on the blue ocean. Anytime your interests do not align with Amazon's interests, you need to be very nervous because Amazon will run you over. They will not feel bad about it. So if you can't keep your interests aligned, that's when you need to say, how am I protecting my team? How am I protecting my personal assets? Right, to make sure something bad would happen. All of that being said, Walmart is probably the marketplace that we're seeing the most growth and adoption. Five years ago, there are companies I never would have ever suggested Walmart for, but I've been on a couple of private consulting calls where things are shared and not anything that's not allowed to be, nothing confidential, like internal numbers. There have been some earning calls that Walmart has had where they're really seeing a shift, an increase in six-figure income earners moving to Walmart. In fact, I'm one of them. I always use Instacart because my Costco is like 20 minutes away and so by the time I get there and back, it's like two hours. But I recently switched to Walmart. Now, partly because I get Walmart Plus with my Emacs Platinum. And there was something, it was actually a luxury product that brought me over there. We went and stayed at the St. Regis in Venice and it was amazing. My husband really loved the soap there and I found it a lot cheaper on Walmart. And so then we started grocery shopping on Walmart. They're also seeing that some of the new medications that are in the pharmacy are bringing in a different clientele. So there's a lot of options there. Target's been working on their marketplace for a long time. And then eBay, you know, depending on how things go, eBay could be positioned, you know, could have a resurgence depending on how things go, what tariffs and supply chains, you know, things get a little wonky again, you might be able to see some positioning moves there. But, you know, you got to think about, so when you look at like wider digital marketing, They'll talk a lot about like search intent or the intent of the user. So the kind of question that you ask Siri versus the kind of question you ask Google versus the kind of a question you ask Alexa are all different. And we have a different intent when we use those different search engines, right? So when we're using Reddit, we ask a different question than we might ask Siri. So where is your customer and where is their buying intent? And that's kind of where you so there's not going to be a one size fits all answer. And it might be that direct to consumer is where you want to go. It might be that retail, retail, the grass always seems greener, but there can be a lot of complication. When things go badly, it can. Really hurt your bottom line. So you need to go in that with caution. You know, there's licensing deals. There's a lot of different options. It's about really looking at what is realistic for your brand, what your resources are and where your ideal client profile is. And I think the biggest thing too is not to shoot yourself in the foot on Amazon. We had an oil diffuser company that they just kept launching every two weeks. They had a different diffuser. And so they were all competing. All those listings were competing against themselves. And so they were diluting their sales and other people started to take over on that keyword. Not only about diversifying off of Amazon, but it's also looking at if you diversify, how much are you really protecting so we don't have, we're based in reality, and then how can we do our best to make sure that we hold that spot on Amazon? That's partly strategy, that's partly compliance, and that's partly on just staying up to date with what's in Amazon's interest in the direction that they're moving. Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. There's nothing out there that I can't compete directly with Amazon yet. Walmart, like I said, I think has the best shot. Depending on your product, I was talking to a past guest He said that if your product would fit well on the shelves in Walmart, then it probably will sell well on Walmart.com. I think that's a good way to judge. It's not a be-all, end-all for sure. I think with Amazon, it's going to be death by a thousand cuts, so to speak. There's not going to necessarily be one marketplace that comes up to rival them. It's going to be 20 different marketplaces that start stealing 1% here, 5% there, 10% over there. And slowly, you know, bringing them down a little bit, but I think they're going to be the behemoth for a long time. Speaker 1: Yeah. And, you know, sometimes things do change faster than anticipated. You know, when I started in 2010, 2011, like eBay, like, why would you even, we, we, they would call selling on Amazon selling on the river. And so they're like, why would you even sell on the river? eBay is the king and will always be the king. And like a year and a half later, like all of the eBay sellers is like, Now there's some people throughout that have made a ton of money selling on eBay this whole time. We never know when those disruptions are going to happen and that's where it's helpful to have somebody for a brand. They don't have time to read 18 LinkedIn things and to check the news alerts and all of that so that's where a brand A partner or an agency can say, you know, Walmart just launched this thing. We think it's really going to impact things. We should really look at accelerating the Walmart timeline or, you know, and that as a brand reseller, I will tell you expanding into other marketplaces to build up trust first could be a really great way to start because most agencies like ours will charge an additional fee per agency just because there's a lot of manual work that goes in managing those other marketplaces. So that can be an option as well. Speaker 2: Very good. Well, we've gone over quite a bit, Robyn. Any other last things that you want to touch on and then we'll wrap it up? Speaker 1: I think the biggest thing is if you are trying to save a relationship as a reseller, I would look at what impact are you having and how can you outweigh that with the good that you bring and being really clear on that before you get on that call. And if you're a brand, before you say, you know, off with their heads, And that might be the right solution, maybe, but more often than not, there is a happy medium, or at least there's a way to treat people, there's a way to taper things, so it's, you know, you're not hurting somebody else's business. But more importantly, so that your products are feeling really well represented, that you're only having to focus on inventory for the products that you're working on pushing and ranking, and it allows you to get that laser focus that you really need to be successful on Amazon. Speaker 2: I agree 100%. Robyn, where can people connect with you and reach out to you? Speaker 1: Yeah, so you can find out more about me and our company at marketplaceblueprint.com. If you go to marketplaceblueprint.com forward slash show, we have like a listing PDF and ways to like follow us on social media and all of that good stuff. So feel free to reach out and I really appreciate you having me on the show today. Speaker 2: Absolutely. I appreciate it as well, Robyn. You have an awesome day. Speaker 1: All right. Thank you. Unknown Speaker: This has been another episode of the Amazon Seller School podcast. Thanks for listening, fellow Amazon seller. And always remember, success is yours if you take it. Speaker 2: Hey, if you made it this far in the show, I really hope you enjoyed it and I'd like to ask you a favor. Could you head on over to Apple or Spotify or wherever you're listening to this and leave us a review? It would be greatly appreciated and would help us continue to grow the show and offer more episodes for you. Thank you. God bless and have an awesome day.