Why 99% of Amazon Sellers Fail on TikTok Shop

I think a lot of Amazon sellers are very very profit driven which is why these profit dashboards are so huge on Amazon and they come to Tik Tok shop and they're like okay I need to keep the same margins and da da you shouldn't have that same expectation right like you're getting someone that wasn't searching for the product to now buy it so naturally your ads are going to be less efficient you have these creators you need to pay them a commission and so ultimately I think the brands that end up scaling to millions a month are the ones that are willing to take a slight loss on Tik Tok shop alone as a channel but they see so much of a halo by coming to Amazon, getting them into brickandmortar like Target or Costco or whatever, and now they have this like massive library of content that they can repurpose onto Meta or to their website or whatever they want to do with it. >> Tik Tok actually says only 1% of their sellers drive 60% of the business. So there's a lot of people that especially in Amazon, they see these stories and they hear the stories like you just said like, "Oh my god, I need to get over to TikTok." And they go over there and they fail miserably. You're watching Marketing Misfits with Nor Ferrar and Kevin K. What's up everybody? Welcome to the Marketing Misfits. Another week, another great episode. And we have an awesome guest today. Unfortunately, my good friend Norm is not here. He smoked one too many cigars. No, that's not really what it was. Um, he had a little medical uh uh thing they had to go take care of. So, he's unfortunately not able to make it today. So, I'm carrying uh uh the flag by myself, but you're in good hands. So, because we got a good guest that can uh that that's got a lot of experience. I'm going to share a lot of really cool stuff uh with you guys. I know a lot of you that listen to this, you know, I used to have a podcast in the Amazon space and I did that with Helium 10 and then Norm had one called Lunch with Norm that he did for several years. And then we joined together on this podcast a couple years ago, April of 2024, I think the first one came out. And we've been consistent every single week since then. And a lot of the guests that come on this show are know us from the Amazon world. Some of them you're coming from the internet marketing that go high level, the ClickFunnels type of world. Uh, so our next our guest today is someone I've known for quite some time. We've had dinner at a couple events together and um he's been around the e-commerce space for for a while. Had some ups and downs. Uh came out of it uh really really well and has expanded to go more just than just be on Amazon but also Tik Tok shop. He started doing Tik Tok shop himself for his own brand and said hey there's something here. I think I can help a lot of other sellers. I see a lot of other people having pain and not succeeding at this when there's people that have these like really great stories about succeeding on a Tik Tok top shop and then people go try it especially from the Amazon world and they fail. He's like well they're doing stuff wrong and I can show them how the right path and so that's some of what we'll be talking about today with our guest Fernando Kempo. How you doing man >> dude it's good to see you. Thanks so much for having me Kevin. Yeah >> I appreci appreciate you coming on. Um, so you when did you get into e-commerce? >> Oh man. Uh, 2014. Yeah. >> So, did you do like Amazon selling machine? Amazing selling machine or one of those things. >> Uh, I did. Uh, I'm a little embarrassed to say this now cuz Matt Clark is a friend, but um, we were originally going to sell on eBay, which is kind of funny now in hindsight, you know, cuz like 2014, like I feel like eBay was kind of going down like this and Amazon was going up, but then um, yeah, at one point we got a package from Amazon and then we were like, wait, why are we going to sell on eBay if we're we're already buying on Amazon? It's clearly the puck is moving that way. And then I ended up googling, can you sell on Amazon? And then amazing selling machine uh came up. We were broke and so like I ended up torrenting it and then like you know one thing led to another and then we ended up um selling on Amazon basically. So those that don't know, Amazing Selling Machine or ASM for short was one of the top programs back in the early two 2010s up till about they're still around but from about 2012 2013 till about 2017 18 they were the place that people learned. They charged about 5,000 bucks and thousands and tens of thousands of people actually went through that course. I think they did $150 million in selling and they basically kind of invented the uh find a product opportunity on Amazon. go to Alibaba, put your name on it and sell it. And they've made a lot of millionaires in in the in the process. Um, but also back in those days, there was a lot of, and I'm not blaming ASM, but almost everybody, there's a lot of stuff that wasn't actually told to you. Like they they painted a pretty positive picture. Like, look, buy it, buy it for two bucks and sell it for 20, you make $18 profit. Uh, you know, oh, by the way, Amazon takes uh, you know, 15% commission. So, you know, you make a little bit less than profit, but still really good. But they left out all the other things that it takes to actually, you know, to, you know, overhead and stocking fees and damages and returns and this and that and the other and uh of actually running a business. And so, some people got in and started doing well and then realized this thing takes a serious amount of cash and a serious amount of overhead no matter how successful you are. And I think that's you had an issue where you kind of got in, it went really well and almost too well and almost bankrupted you, right? >> Yeah. I mean, we went through it, I mean, definitely a few different times, but um but yeah, the the big one was in like 2019, one of our um account managers or category managers had um bought some reviews and you know, I think at the time like a lot of people were buying more reviews. >> Yeah. He bought a ton which we didn't know. Uh and we just got like smashed. Uh yeah, truthfully by Amazon. They came after us a few different times. Excuse me. But yeah, basically suspended our account, suspended our product line and uh yeah, a few months later and then eventually suspended the whole brand, all of the accounts and everything. It like over a period of 6 months. And yeah, basically we had 6 million in debt. a good portion of it personally guaranteed t like you know a good portion of it to manufacturers and yeah a 90 person team we were doing probably 35 million a year and then it just like everything just like came crashing down um but yeah I mean all in all like you know I think well I think some people would say like they're glad it happened I'm definitely not uh but I think Yeah, I I do think we built a better business like you know coming out of that. So like basically the last blow from Amazon was like in March of 2020 and then so we like we basically were able to like negotiate out a lot of the debt, paid off a ton of the debt, launched a few supplement brands, and then this year we'll probably do close to 50 million. So like six years later, uh we're like we're back with a better business. Um we came up >> you did a whole story on that I think if I recall during co like didn't you publish like something somewhere like telling the the whole story and your journey on that. I did a YouTube video. >> Maybe that's what it was. >> And then I mean I did some posts like uh an MDS and stuff like that just cuz I mean I think it was a a good lesson. I think we were it was the unfortunate thing for us was it was our second strike and we were in the first wave like the first strike like one was like maybe 6 months before but like it was you know we were like the first wave of like if your insert said like if you're happy please leave a review where like that used to be okay and then all of a sudden it wasn't but we got suspend day because of it >> and then that was our second uh that was our first rake and then we got hit with the second one and there was just like kind of no coming back. Um, >> so what did you do? So you when they said no coming back, you said you, you know, you negotiated all the debt and you took care of some stuff, but did you go out and get new partners and start over and start on Shopify? Did you go back to the marketplaces or what did you do? >> Yeah, man. We did a little bit of everything. We uh basically we had 90 people, so we like laid off probably 60%. We probably ended up keeping with 40. We had uh a small agency. So like Nick, my business partner, took on uh really trying to grow the agency because that would immediately like impact cash, right? Um >> marketplace ops or something like that. What was >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah. >> And then um and then we had a retail team that was selling to like TJ Maxx and Marshalls and those guys. And so we kept a skeleton crew there. And then basically a lot of our manufacturers like really liked us and so we're like look we have no cash. We're like this close to bankruptcy. Um and so we're like but uh you've already made the product so like trust us help like send like pay for the freight. send it we'll send it to we'll sell it to TJ Max and everything and we'll just give you like 80% of the profit until we pay you back or like it was like a for certain deals it was like 8020 and then other deals it was like 6040 but we were able to do that where they were just sending us the inventory basically on consignment and then um we paid off probably like I would guess like 8 9 8 9 8 9 8 9 8 9 8 9 8 9 8 9 8 9 8 9 8 900k of the debt that way and then we had one brand that wasn't touched. we were able to package that and then sell that maybe like in November of that year of 2020. And so then that paid off like another like maybe million and a half in debt. We negotiated a lot of the debt for like I think it was like 11 cents on the dollar. So like I mean it was like this like crazy turnaround story. It took us probably a full almost two years. Oh yeah. And then launching the supplement brands like Yeah. We went and then basically did a Facebook post to friends that knew us and we're like, "Look, you guys know the situation. We're good guys. We've uh we've launched um supplement brands in the past for clients on the agency side. We think we could do this. We have great ideas." Um and so we took on capital. We gave them um an equity split of the first product and we started a few different brands and then two of those brands are like our largest brands today. So, it's kind of like this like Hail Mary that ended up building like multiple 8 figureure brands. Hey, Norm, I've got a quick question for you. I'm trying to manage all my affiliate and creator programs from Amazon, from Shopify, from Walmart, but it's just a freaking mess. I mean, I've got reporting coming from here and there, all these different Slack messages. Do you know if there's like a unified dashboard where I can do this all in one place? Yeah, absolutely. And you're right. It is a mess. A lot of brands are complaining about that. But there is a place that has a solution. It's called Lavanta. And they let brands recruit partners, track performance, manage payouts, send product samples, and even run creator programs across every major marketplace all in one place. And guess what? Brands can spend less time on tools and more time making profit. Is that the one that you sent me a link for like a 10% off coupon their gold or enterprise plan a few few days ago? >> You got it. >> Oh, cool, man. I think I've got that link here. Was it lavanta.io/misfits? >> Yep, you got it. >> le van na.iomisfits. >> Awesome. I'm going to go uh go hit him up right now and get that 10% off. >> Perfect. Me, too. Is that like people from like MDS and stuff or is that just people in your network? >> Uh yeah, mostly through MDS. Yep. >> Through MDS. MDS is million-dollar sellers which is a group of uh probably like 6700 I think maybe maybe a little bit more of all all people doing a million dollars or more primarily in in e-commerce. So it's a a pretty pretty pretty strong group. Um uh so you can check them out if if you're interested. Um so what did you do differently when you started fresh? >> Did you did you like make sure your name's on and everything and someone else's names on everything on Amazon and then like >> make sure like be a little more cautious on the hiring and the scaling or work out different terms. What were some of the what was the you said you didn't want to you're not happy you went through it but what what are a couple lessons that someone might be able that you took from that that other people might should listen to when you started again? >> Yeah. Uh it's a great question. Um, well, you know, I think I I think, you know, building for the long term is really I think you can always take these shortcuts, but I think often and especially if you're trying to scale fast, which is what we were trying to do, right? We were doubling every year. We were trying to hit 100 million in revenue and then we wanted to exit. Um, but I think we're kind of going into all these different categories and like you know sometimes getting reviews and all that kind of stuff. I think now like I I mean a big lesson is like I wish I would have just I wish I would have done supplements from the beginning but I would just focus on one brand and having a really clear like um you know customer persona or um buyer persona and really speaking to that uh product. I think Ryan Moran's really good at this, but like or he talks about it a lot, but just like being more focused on one brand. Um, I mean, I think I remember like actually like David Gem like from Mary Ruth like back then was just like Fernand like why do you have so many different brands and you're in so many different categories. At the time like I wasn't really like listening but I was like dude like we're scaling so fast and like D but like now look you know what he's done in terms of like uh the power of focus and so I think that's a big thing. Um, yeah, I think, yeah, just staying in supplements. I think that like or even within like a a category like whatever like what Logan has done with Physicians Choice is just like being hyperfocused in like gut health. Um, but I think you can get so much better at like a specific category and really understanding your customer and and just like there's so many levels to it versus I think even within just like all supplements, right? Like which is a category I always say no well. So, you can do sports nutrition, you could do, um, you know, uh, kids supplements, you could do specific supplements for women trying to lose weight, but there's so many different angles that you can take. Um, but I think, yeah, in the past, we were just like, oh, we're going to do this sports and nutrition, we're going to do um, home and kitchen, we're going to do all these kind of things just based on like marketing metrics of like revenue and mar expected margin profile and how sophisticated the competition was. But ultimately, it spread us really thin and we just weren't really great at anything. And so, um, yeah, I think those are some of the things that I would do differently today. >> Why supplements? Is it because of the margins? Is it because of it's a recurring revenue thing? People need these month after month after month. So, you could you can spend more to acquire a customer because it's one of the most competitive fields out there. Uh, and there's not a lot I mean, there's some regulation, but then there's not a lot of regulation. there's a lot of gray areas like you know so why why supplements? >> Yeah, great question. Um I think there's a few things that you covered. One is the repurchase frequency like you know we're looking at US-made consumables. Uh actually I'll start there. So, we want to do US-made consumables. One, because cash conversion cycles, which is just like the time from when you pay your supplier to when you get paid, is naturally going to be a lot shorter if it's like a US-made consumables. One, you don't have to wait for the product to arrive by boat, you know, over 40 days. But then, two is way easier to get payment terms from a US uh manufacturer versus like an international one. Um, and so by doing by moving all our manufacturing into the US, then like we could basically grow way faster without needing outside capital, which was a huge problem, which is why we had the $6 million in debt uh, you know, pre- suspension. And then um, and then we were looking at like uh like yeah, consumables just cuz yeah, we wanted to be able to like acquire a customer and then ideally keep them. And then we were kind of looking at like what is the revenue per skew or for the category and what we realized is like in certain categories like let's say um food and beverage like beverage super heavy you're going to lose a ton of money so you need to be venturebacked which we didn't want to do. Um like grocery like kind of better for you category is really hot at the time especially but it's super low margin and so that's going to make it really hard to scale. And then beauty, while I think it's really cool, a lot of the time you're not reordering that product for 3, six, nine months versus supplements is that you're doing 30 servings. You're having to buy that every every month, right? And so that's ultimately like why we ended up doing supplements. We also like both Nick and I are like pretty passionate about health. We go to the gym all the time. We are taking supplements anyways. Um, and so something that we more interested in relative to like beauty for instance. So, what category of supplements are what what's is is what is it? What category? >> Uh, we're in a bunch. Uh, but yeah, everything from like fish oil, turmeric, like um D3, K2, like kind of general health, not specific to like sports nutrition or weight loss or anything like that. >> So, aimed at a specific avatar. >> Uh, yeah. or cross cross anybody that needs K2 or whatever can take it or is it like no we're targeting you know people that work out three times a week and do this and this and this is all the pack of stuff that they would probably need. >> Yeah, it's a good question. If I were to do it again, I would probably like focus on a very specific avatar. We we kind of were more focused than we were in the past with like our home and kitchen stuff, but still not super hyper focused. Like I think about like >> So it's just where the opportunities are. You saw the opportunities and supplements and that's where you stepped in. >> Exactly. Yeah. Still like very data driven looking at like the competition kind of thinking about how we differentiate looking at like the keyword volume and like all that kind of stuff. And I think since then like you know product opportunity explorer has come out and stuff like that. So you can kind of look at like market share average you know average sale price for your top whatever 20 all that kind of stuff. But um but yeah I look at like um you know what taste salude has done which is like a hydration company that is like specifically it's like a liquid IV for Latinos. I think it's genius. like they can do they do a lot of really cool partnerships uh with like you know Mexican soda companies or they sponsored like the Mexican national team for the World Cup like but it's like they're like hyperfocused on that like hydration is a massive market but like maybe they don't want lemon lime maybe they want whatever like an orchata flavor I think that's like super specific and they've built a massive brand >> that's the same same so I think the lesson what you just said there if I'm understanding you is you can diff you can differentiate a product by who it's targeted at, even though it may be the same product. >> So, whatever they're selling there, you just said it's a it's a hydration for Latinos, but I bet the exact same hydration can be used for white people, black people, Asian people, everything else. Uh, they just are saying it's for Latinas so that the Latina, oh, this is for me. And maybe the there's a slight flavor profile different difference, but basically the same thing. That's Tylenol does this. You go into the store in in a pharmacy and there's extra strength and headache strength and it's all the same thing if you look at the ingredients. Um or I always give the analogy of baseball bats. You go into a sports store and you're left-handed, which most people aren't, but if you're left-handed and there's all these bats up on the wall and you're like, "Which one's for me?" And there's one in the corner that says for left-handers, even though it's the exact same bat as, you know, bat number three and five over on the right hand side of the wall, you're going to buy it cuz it's for you. We did this. But we saw this big in co with hand sanitizer. People would have hand wipes, you know, sanitizing wipes, and there'd be wipes for the gym, wipes for the car, wipes for the house, and they're all the same thing. They're just packaged differently. So that that's a marketing lesson uh out of that. That's that's super powerful. >> Totally. Yeah. Um Yeah. And so I think, yeah, getting clear on the ICP is huge. I think it's super valuable. It's way more sharable, you know what I Because like then the the left-hander, even though it's only 10%, I'm left-handed, so it's like even though it's only 10% of people, like if I like, you know, hit a home run, then the other left-handers would be like, "What battery are you using?" They're like, "What?" And it's like, "Oh, yeah." You know, and then it's like you instantly have this like kind of bond and that you're way more likely to share it and like go buy like just like there's um Black Girl Vitamins, right? Like that's another like massive brand that's doing really well. Or like again like >> is that the name of it? black girl vitamins or it's for black girls. >> Yeah. And it's obviously for black girls. >> That's the name of it. Okay. Okay. >> Very very literal. >> All right. >> You know what I mean? >> That's cool. That's I love that. That's cool. >> And so I think it's just it's so specific, but you just know who they're targeting. And so like, you know, the marketing team, the product development team, they like they are, you know, probably the same demo. And then they're like, "Okay, well, what kind of products and what kind of supplements do I want?" And I think then I can you can have more intentionality with everything that you're doing, right? Whether that's Yeah. product development or marketing or like PR or all that stuff is going to be so much more aligned versus like Yeah. truthfully like we're kind of all over the place a lot of the time in terms of product. I think we're getting more and more narrow. Um, but yeah, I think that's a lot of what I what I would do more of and just be more focused and then it's easier to win in that category and then build that like tribe or a thousand true fans like um yeah and then and then kind of expand from there. >> What's your how much what's your average selling price for one year supplement? I know they probably vary, but what's if you just said, "Hey, we're mostly around the 40 bucks price point or what's the price point?" probably on average like 25 weighted average. >> And do you know your lifetime value? >> Uh on Amazon's super hard to tell. I honestly wouldn't know. >> Do you know like the average subscribe and save how long they stay? >> I know that I give or take about um 35% of our revenue is from both manual reorders and subscribe and save. Uh, but I don't know how long they subscribe and take it for. >> Okay. So, that's about $50 million revenue. Uh, I know you're not just on Amazon, but that's >> right. >> That's that's uh 20 $30 million of revenue on Amazon is is from that. So, that means your average I don't you could figure this out, but let's just say it's five months they say on one of your things for five months. So, that means it's a your your lifetime value is $125. So you can spend on advertising or email or UGC or whatever, you know, to to a decent amount to acquire that customer, but it gets expensive really really fast when you're doing that on Amazon, especially nowadays. So I think three or four years ago, maybe 20 23 I think you said, >> you actually started dabbling around on Tik Tok >> and you started having some success uh with the supplement the supplement brand on Tik Tok >> and you figured a few things out through some trial and error and now you're helping other brands do you're doing it for yourself and you're helping other brands. But I think the key here is there's a lot of people that are out there that are teaching or helping or have an agency that does Tik Tok that have never sold. they they they got into it. Maybe they work for somebody else and they branched out on their own. Maybe they have some experience in it, but they actually never had their own money, their own sweat, their own balls on the line, uh like you like you have and you still continue to do. And I think that's an important distinction is people who sell and then create a software or a service uh successfully. Let me rephrase that. Success heavily sell who create create a software or service are far more better and in tune with it than the people who don't. And I think that's a major advantage. So what what happened in 2023 that made you decide let me let me go check out this Tik Tok stuff? >> Yeah, it's a good question. Um, you know, I had two different friends kind of hit me up and say this channel's crazy. Like I think one um I won't name another supplements guy who like basically grew a pretty large business by like 50 60% from September of 2023 to like January. So like he grew like um yeah from like I don't know let's call it like from 2 million to 3 million a month kind of thing uh within that like period which I was like that's unheard of. and he was like yeah credited a lot of it to Tik Tok and then another friend who's more in beauty also had a massive run there were at the time they were doing all these subsidies and like co-unding and everything I was like okay this is going to go away this is like seems like um you know I think about it like in terms of like levels of difficulty I think like Amazon truthfully as much as I don't want to admit it like it's kind of the easiest channel right like in a lot of ways especially if you got in early think if you think about like DTOC in like traditional DTOC like meta to Shopify and everything and the team that's required and understanding I think it's super hard and then I kind of looked at like Tik Tok and I was like this seems kind of like the middle of the road it seems like more approachable than DTOC but you have the advantage of being super early and so like I think all that kind of made me like clear my entire schedule and I like in December of 2023 I was like look Nick you take care of Amazon. Like I'm gonna be hyper hyperfocused. I'm basically other than our leadership meeting. I'm not doing much on the Amazon side except like we're really trying to figure out Tik Tok shop. >> So you you dive into Tik Tok shop and you got in early and just to put in perspective, Tik Tok is a great opportunity, but I think Tik Tok actually says just recently like only 1% of their sellers drive 60% of the business. So there's a lot of people that especially in the Amazon, they see these stories and they hear the stories like you just said, I need to get get over to Tik Tok and they go over there and they fail miserably. Uh and and so there's some things that you got to do. Certain products are suitable for Tik Tok, certain ones aren't. There's a way that you got to launch on Tik Tok. You got to do the algorithm. You got to work with influencers and people. So, what are what's what are the pro the steps that you take someone through when they say, "All right, I'm doing pretty good on Amazon. I've got a product here." And you vet the product and you say, "Yeah, okay. I think this could work on Tik Tok. What's next?" >> Yeah, it's a great question. Um, I think, you know, first I would go to Kalo data or Fast Moss, which is kind of like a competitive research tool like Helium 10 or Jungle Scout. And then I would just like look at the category and then try to figure out like okay um what's the average sell and you I would check Tik Tok as well just to look at it it's like a as a customer to kind of evaluate all the data is right but I'm going to look at like what's the average selling price of like my competitors or comparable products yeah what's the monthly revenue of that monthly revenue like what is um it'll show you like um the estimated like commission rate, which is helpful. But then I would also be looking at like where is that revenue driven by? Like is it driven by um the seller profile, so like their actual Tik Tok page cuz very rarely there's like brands like based which is like a hair care brand where like 60% of their like whatever 3 million a month is coming from their own Tik Tok page because they're amazing at creating content. So if I'm like benchmarking off their 3 million a month, then I'm like, "Oh wow, like I should come in." But then if you realize, well, I have no Tik Tok following and 60% of their stats are coming from that, then it's like you're you should automatically discount it by like 60%. Like, you know what I mean? Because you don't have that same following. Um, and so yeah, I'm looking at that. I'm looking at like the distribution of revenue, whether it's coming from shoppable videos, uh, or lives. Ideally, it's coming from shoppable videos. Um, just cuz I think that's like where the majority of brands are going to scale. Like that's like the 8020 or honestly more like 9010 is shovelable videos coming from affiliates. Um, lives are more bottom off funnel. It works well like if you're doing like um like a beauty package of like buy this like whatever you know hair care set or you know facial cleansing set of six and I'm going to give you 50% discount if you buy this whole package kind of thing. Um, but ultimately you kind of need more awareness like for that to really convert. Um, but um, yeah. So, I think those are some of the first things that I'm kind of looking at. I think the second thing that I'm kind of telling sellers to think about is like honestly if you don't have like give or take 12 to 15k in budget a month to like send out samples if uh assuming you're going to have like someone dedicated towards it or like an agency um potentially some creators on retainer and ad spend I wouldn't I wouldn't even do the channel. I I hear so many like brands are like, "Oh, you know, I sent out a hundred samples, nothing hit, and then I put in like $10 a day in ads. Tik Tok doesn't work." You know what I mean? And so ultimately, it's thinking about like, you know, just like how we used to run giveaways on Amazon in the early days or whatever. Like, you couldn't do 20 giveaways and then like and rank unless it's like 2012. You know what I mean? Like you had to like kind of give away a certain amount of units. You had to get reviews. you have to give it, you have to put some money out in ad spend. But I think ultimately it's like you need to find the winning angle. Um, and that just takes time. And just like you know how Amazon decides where you should rank, Tik Toks is kind of similar, right? Like they're deciding like all these videos like which ones to push out and should they push out these videos specifically versus the other, you know, 100,000 videos that are in your category. Um, and so like if you only come out with 20 videos, like you haven't really invested a lot. And so does it really make sense for Tik Tok to reward that product and really push you in terms of visibility? Um, >> you got to kind of get it do like the version of search fund buy too, right? Because creators don't want to work with someone who has zero sales and and vice versa. You don't want to work with creators that have zero sales. Um, so there's tools like Celico and some of those guys that kind of do that search find buy some of it with kind of a backdoor Tik Tok blessing. Um, to actually get those numbers, you got to do something like that too to kind of see the the the wagon, right? >> Exactly. Yeah. Um, that's a great point. So yeah, Jordan Brands and Celico uh both help you accomplish like a few things. So like Celico is great um for getting the unit sold up and then your affiliate GMBB up right in the beginning. Um and the affiliate GMBB is important so you can unlock like a higher affiliate outreach. Um because basically when you're at zero you can't really reach out to anyone. When you're like at $1 an affiliate GMV up to 2,000 you can only reach out to 2,000 people per week. Uh which seems like a lot but it's it's really not. And you have a ceiling in terms of you can only reach out to people with 20,000 followers or less on Tik Tok. Um, but once you pass the 2K in affiliate GMBB for the month, uh, which you can get through with a Celico or join brands, then you can reach out to 7,000 per week. So, it's like three and a half times. And so, that makes a huge difference. Um, join brands, you pay more per like giveaway. Um, but then ultimately you get videos, which is nice. And so yeah, depending on, you know, what like the kind of where the brand is at, we'll kind of recommend one or the other. Um, but yeah, I think that's really important in terms of like getting the the getting the social proof on the listing and getting traction like you mentioned because ultimately like you're going to pay for it somewhere because let's say for instance, let's say we just launch and then we have no units sold. Then just like you know a listing with zero reviews on Amazon, it's going to be way harder to convert, right? Even if you're spending ads. So, like ultimately if you're not doing a Celico or join brands, you're just spending on less efficient advertising or you're um or you're getting people to go v visit your listing um or your product card, but ultimately they're not converting because there's no social proof. And so like ultimately that's kind of what you're paying for. >> So what do you think of the big mistake an Amazon seller someone's that they misconception they have about getting over to Tik Tok shop? I mean, you said that you said, you know, you need that 10 to 12,000. Don't even touch it unless you're willing to make that in monthly investment. But what's some some other like big things that uh Amazon sellers think about Tik Tok shop that's just not true or stumbles them up? >> Yeah, it's a good question. Um, I would say the first one and I'll explain this like I'll explain the the mistake first and then like why it's a mistake after. But like the the first one I think is they go really wide and then they're like, you know, I want to test my entire product catalog or like 10 products at the same time, right? And that's kind of like our strategy on Amazon, right? is that like you you find the winning product and then you just keep most of your growth is by launching more products in that specific category. Like I'm guilty of it and I think the majority of that's of Amazon sellers think the same way. And ultimately the reason for that is like Amazon ultimately is a demand capture platform, right? Like if you think about like the user journey is they they have an idea of what they want to buy. They search it on Amazon. They look at the search results page. They click on the one they want. They add it to cart and then they purchase. Right? If you're lucky they subscribe and save. But like it's like it's very hard to influence how much a demand is already coming in Amazon, right? It's not like it's not a great discovery platform, right? Um, and I can't make more people search for whatever baseball bats, right? Like I I have no influence on that. But the difference for Tik Tok shop, which is really interesting, is it's actually demanding creation, right? It's more like meta. It's like it's uh interruptive marketing where I'm just on my like the user journey now is I'm just scrolling on my phone looking at my for you page. I'm watching dancing videos and travel videos and whatever else. And then somehow like this baseball player uh tells me like that he's been using a right-handed bat his entire life who switched over to a left-handed bat and then all of a sudden he's a better baseball player for whatever reason. And then I'm like wait I'm left-handed. I play baseball. Like I can't believe I do. And then I go and I add the product um and I buy it right there on Tik Tok shop. But I didn't even know that left-handed bats existed. And I think that's what's so powerful about Tik Tok shop is that you're creating actual demand versus capturing on Amazon. Um, but yeah, I think that that ties into the mistake is that you can scale so much greater on TikTok by just focusing and getting more people to uh find different angles for that same product. or again going back to like the demographics that we talked about is like then you find you know white baseball players and then Hispanic ones and then black ones and then because people are more likely to buy it from people that look like them. And so I think ultimately like hitting all those different demos is huge. Um and I think that's like probably the biggest mistake that I see. Um and then two I think is probably just like running it too conservatively. I think a lot of Amazon sellers are very very profit driven uh you know which is why these profit dashboards are so huge on Amazon then they come to Tik Tok shop and they're like okay I need to keep the same margins and D but naturally like you shouldn't have that same expectation right like you're getting someone that wasn't searching for the product to now buy it so naturally your ads are going to be less efficient you have these creators you need to pay them a commission um and so ultimately I think the brands that end up scaling to millions a month are the ones that are willing to take a slight loss on Tik Tok shop alone as a channel, but they see so much of a halo effect coming to Amazon, getting them like um into brick and mortar, like you know, into like whatever Target or Costco or whatever, and now they have this like massive library of content that they can repurpose onto Meta uh or to their website or whatever they want to do with it. And ultimately, I think um those are probably some of like the more common mistakes that I hear. >> Man, things are getting tough out there. Margins are getting squeezed. Things are changing. AI is playing a big role in what's going on in the e-commerce world. There's a lot of people that are they're that are pretty worried. What What should they consider doing? >> Well, I think one of the best things they could probably do is go to an expert that understands the market sentiment right now. The first one that comes to mind is is Quiet Light Brokerage. And here's why. They're going to build you up. They're going to understand your company. And at the end of the day, you're going to know how to maximize your valuation. So, the very first thing you need to do is go and get your free confidential valuation at quietite.com and then, you know, let the games begin. >> Awesome. What was that website again? It's quiet.com. >> Awesome. I'm going to head over there. >> Well, like back on that demand generation, there's something at least on my feed. Know everybody's feed's different, but I think it's taking off because uh my masseuse was talking about yesterday, too, is Viking music. So, there's there's some AI someone I don't know where they're from. I need to research this, but they created two characters, a man and a woman. Good-looking man, good-looking woman. Very Nordic looking. And they they did these like uptempo kind of Viking songs. You know, we're ho ho ho. We got our axes. We're going in the ships and going through the sea and blah blah blah. And it's a duet back and forth. And it's all done with AI. It looks real. I mean, it's very, very good, but it's got the little AI disclaimer. And you can, if you look at it closely on some of them, you can actually see the little jump or something. But then they now they've created AI merchandising uh where it's the AI characters and they're standing there, hey, thanks for following us. Hope you liked our song. If you want to get the jacket, you know, whatever. And now I just saw an ad yesterday retargeted me like, oh, the album is now coming out. Uh, and now I'm getting other knockoffs in my feed of other people doing Viking type of duets with a good-looking blonde girl with with her hair braided and a a guy with tattoos and a, you know, stern face and a little mohawk or whatever like looks like a Viking type of guy and they're creating that. If someone went to Amazon, they're not going to go and look at that. But now, because of that, I like the music and now I might freaking buy the little album that they're putting out, the little AI album. And so that's that's demand creation and that's the biggest difference on is on Tik Tok and you can do that. How do you do that with your supplements? Because your supplements are you targeting um someone who's already looking for that or are you targeting like hey did you know that you know this uh creatin thing it's not just good for muscles it's actually good for uh you know Alzheimer's or what whatever it is. Do you do anything along those lines? >> Totally. Yeah. I mean I think yeah you're you're constantly thinking about yeah what are the the use cases you could say like uh yeah like maybe forgetfulness or like you know tell us you could tell a story of like I keep uh like I keep losing my keys I'm forgetting my wallet and like I can never find them or like you know blah blah blah and then I started taking the supplement and it helps me like remember these kind of things and like so you're not like mentioning like the disease but you're kind of you're telling a story >> you're you're making you're telling the story of the experience that they can relate to. >> Exactly. That's the main thing. Is it can that person on the other side relate to this? And then like is it enough of a pain point or a problem that they're willing to want to solve it through a supplement? And so, and if you can be convincing and explain maybe the science or like kind of like explain the before and after or if there's a visual before and after then um then I think that can be really meaningful, right? Like um yeah. what like you know I think there's like a ton of people that like will do like kind of skin care stuff right that's like yeah look at the wrinkles that I had before and they showed like a photo and then look at me now and it's like they have like perfect skin and you're like whoa like clear visual transformation or like teeth whitening very similar but like ultimately it's like can I relate to this person is it something that I'm like maybe insecure about or something that like I really want to solve But I didn't like I wasn't even aware potentially that it was a problem or I was aware but I hadn't like really prioritized it or I didn't know what the right solution was and now I'm becoming solution aware or product aware because there's like obviously like um a pyramid of >> Yeah. Five stages five stages of awareness. Yeah. >> Exactly. And so I think that's like the beautiful thing with Tik Tok is that you can take somebody within one 30 secondond video from like the least aware up to the most aware through one video and get them to convert. And I think that's what's like so powerful versus like on Amazon like you're only really hitting like the top of that triangle like those top two like product aware and solution aware because they they have to know like they have to search for it on Amazon. It's not like they're getting like there's no like recommendation of like oh here like here Kevin like check out this like Viking album. You know what I mean? That's not going to happen on Amazon without you searching. >> And so ultimately that's like the massive difference. >> And you got to create a have an emotional response. Actually the best advertising has an emotional response. It doesn't have to actually sell the product. There's a I use this in one of my I have a presentation I give sometimes called the psychology of marketing. You can actually find it on on YouTube. You type my name, psychology of marketing presentation. But one of the examples I given there is Google. And Google ran a Super Bowl ad probably 10 years ago or so. Uh, and the ad didn't talk about how you could search on Google or how what Google can do for you or what you can find. It actually started off and showed the screen. The whole ad was just the screen of Google. You see, you hear the typing keys, someone typing, and you see what they're typing in the search bar. And it's like it starts off with like a trip to Paris. Uh and then then like book book flights to Paris and American Airlines shows up and then book hotel in Paris. They book a hotel and then book find cafe near hotel. Uh you know it shows Google Maps. And then the next one is uh you know um something to do with like uh where can I buy uh champagne and roses cuz obviously he met somebody or she or he met somebody at the cafe and it keeps going through these little you just see the typing going on the answers coming back and at the end of it uh it's like wedding chapels in Paris uh and it never says they're getting married just you know you follow the emotional track and at the end of that after emotional after that it says where uh it ends with where where do I >> how do I assemble a baby crib or something like that and so it takes you to this whole emotional path that >> makes you aware of what Google can do and creates an emotional connection it's a very strong ad >> and people that can do that when it comes to Tik Tok or social is huge um and especially now that I just saw a stat this was just in my newsletter um just a couple days ago that Tik Tok used to be to actually have a chance to kind of go viral, you had to have at least a 50% watch rate on your video. Now, it's up to seven, the stats say it's up to 70%. If you don't have a 70% watch rate or make you make, which means they got to get through 70% of your video on average before they bail, then your chances of going viral are are pretty low. Uh, and so by having that emotional connection and drawing somebody through, it actually can can make you actually get seen more and have more discovery. And you see some people do this. I hate it when they do it. I I'll usually click off now, but someone at the beginning it's like, "Hey, there's five five things you should never uh give your dog." And the first 30 seconds is them just babbling about themselves and about whatever before they get into everything. And there's usually a line in there that says something like, "Make sure you stay to the end because it's the best. It's the best most shocking one or something like that." They're trying to get that watch rate up. And I I know they're gaming the system, so I usually bounce off of those type of videos, but it works uh for the for the average person. So, what do you see working when it comes to Tik Tok for brands? Is it the down and dirty just UGC creator making a looks like an amateurish video? Is it a slicker video? Is it um them comparing it to to another product um or or them just espousing a testimonial like hey this saved my life kind of thing. >> Yeah, great question. Um honestly it just depends on the category. I think there's so many different uh there's so many different ways to win. like you know I just I did a a YouTube video the other day on um it's like 30 second video and it was like on a a pressure washer kind of thing and like immediately within the first 3 seconds like he has like a a door frame that's like pretty dirty with like a cobweb and his hook was something like yeah if you have like a like a like a bee nest like you can clean it like this which is so random cuz like the majority of people probably don't live in an area where there's like a lot of bees nest, right? But he just like it's so like satisfying to watch him see this like really dirty like corner of the door frame and then just spray it and it just completely like white like perfect uh like brand new and then he goes and then like cleans like the inside of a trash can, right? Which is like it's kind of a visceral thing, right? Cuz one that's like disgusting. Like I would hate to clean the trash can, but you know like you know everyone's had done it. It smells terrible. You know what I mean? It's kind of a pain with your hose. But you just watch him like take this um this attachment, throws a ton of soap there like into the thing and then like a second later changes the attachment again and then just cleans the whole trash can. And then like immediately it just flips over to this list of like whatever 14 things of like here's all the different ways that you could use this pressure washer. So, obviously that's more of like a demonstration type of video, >> but like there's all these like AI videos where they're pretending to be on podcast talking about like the benefits of the supplement or whatever. There's um skits that are like not they don't have as strong of a CTA or call to action. Um but like they're just more meant for entertainment. And so there's some kind of like shock and awe type of thing and then it's like oh but and then by this and then there's like conspiracy type of theories like where it's like oh did you know that like these celebrities don't want you to know about this or Trump is this and like and then it kind of just goes through this like crazy rabbit hole of like that starts with this like very recognizable figure and then it's like oh the government doesn't want you to know this because you know the health care system is, you know, messed up. And then it goes to this like credible doctor that's talking about like how whatever NAD is like the the going to make us live to 200 years old and then and then it's like, oh yeah, I started taking NAD and this is the only brand that I trust and blah blah blah blah. And then you go through this whole like sequence of events, but there's so many different and to your point that there's these comparisons. It's like, oh, like you could be buying this product and it's like 70 bucks, but then I just found this one and it's just as good and like, you know, and they're not like overcharging the customers and it's only 30 bucks. But like, yeah, I think there's so many different types of formats truthfully. But yeah, it's like I I would say there's not really a specific one that probably works for any type of product. You just kind of have to like test, have like an inclination, kind of look at like what's working for your category. And >> how do you how do you do that? How do you see like Facebook has the the ads library? >> Tik Tok Tik Tok has something similar, right? Where you can go in there and you can actually see these are the in these keywords or these intents or whatever. These are the videos that are getting the most views or most engagement or whatever. >> Yeah. So, uh, ka data, k a l o data.com and then fast moss, like just how it sounds. Uh, those are the like probably the best two for looking at that. So, again, very similar to like a Helium 10 or whatever, but you can put in the you can search the product. The product search is not great, but it's better by brand. Uh, or sometimes what I'll do is I'll go on to Tik Tok shop on my phone. I'll search because the search is better there. I'll then I'll write down like, okay, here's all the brands that are like related to the category. And then I'll go search uh on my computer like within Kalo data because that's what we use um by those brands and then within the brand store now I can look at like okay what's the like all those stats that I mentioned towards the beginning of the call but like yeah the monthly GMV I can see GMV by product these are all estimates just like Helium 10 or whatever but it's directionally right I can see who are the top creators what video is performing the best how much revenue has that video done and then I can basically Now go analyze all of that. >> Do you see a lot of creator being a creator can be a lot of work because they got to deal with these brands. Some of these brands are a little demanding. Sometimes they're knocking out it takes a while, you know, to actually create video, especially if they're editing it and they're just not seeing results. So, do you what do you do to cultivate that to help brands to help uh creators that you have success with uh with with your supplement brand? What's it? It's Nvana. Novasa, what's the name of it? >> Nava. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, we're um we're doing a lot like we we coach the creators. We have like weekly coaching calls. Um we'll do like one-on-one. So, those are group coaching calls. We'll do one-on- ones with our creator coach. Um, yeah, we we're giving them feedback of like, hey, like, you know, uh, we noticed your CTA wasn't that great or um, you know, maybe your editing like you let them Yeah, to your point, like watch time is really important. So, let's say you have like an extra second or two at the end of the video, then someone's way more likely to to to swipe, right? Uh, sorry, to swipe um to the next video. So, it'd be better if you cut that like right at the payoff so that you have like a full watch time, right? Versus um having that extra like second or two at the end. So, like kind of making suggestions like that or like, "Hey, I noticed that like you didn't have like the text overlay." And so, like for all those people that don't have sound, like you're going to get a better hook rate by doing that. And so, we're just kind of giving them that like general feedback. and then or sorry very tailored feedback to their specific videos and I think they appreciate it and then you have like these like kind of people that were only doing whatever $500 a month and then they had this like they take your feedback they improve on it and then they make whatever 10k in commissions the following month. Now they're so much more invested in the brand because they're just going to keep one doing response videos because those do really well. But then two, they're just going to keep recreating the video that worked for them because ultimately like it's hit once. They just need to do it in a different shirt or instead of doing in their kitchen, they do it in their car and then basically try to hit like keep hitting that um that success over and over again. So that's what we do. >> So what is Hive IQ? >> Oh, Hive HQ. >> Hive HQ. Sorry. Yeah. HQ. All good. >> So, we started uh as kind of like a profit analytics dashboard. So, very similar to like um you know like the seller boards and everything from from the Amazon space. So, that's we're the leading kind of profit analytics dashboard. Um and so we have a ton of data which is really really helpful. But then as we were kind of helping a bunch of sellers and helping them like giving them advice like a lot of people were like honestly FA you know this space better than all the agencies that we're talking to like would you be open to managing um like our store and so I brought in a partner um that has helped scale another agency um and so yeah he just joined and then now we're managing the strategy and the marketing affiliate management ads uh for maybe about a dozen brands now. Um and um yeah, so we're yeah, basically we have an agency component. Um like leveraging obviously a lot of the data and stuff that we have from across one operating our own brands but then you know hundreds of stores that we have access to and then we leverage that to basically um yeah scale the channel for them. >> What what are some costs that people coming from the Amazon or Shopify world when they get into TikTok don't realize? sample cost or like trying to track the halo effect um to know that you're negative on TikTok but you're actually positive or doing okay overall or what are some other costs that aren't factored in necessarily? >> Yeah, it's a great question. Um I think that sample cost everybody generally knows. Um I mean agency fees everyone knows. I think would they probably >> but on a sample cost I mean what do you find how do you control that cost because you can send out contact a thousand creators and get you know 10 of them to respond to you or whatever and you send out a sample of 10 of them then only two of them do anything. So, you just am advertise that across uh everything or how how can you control those costs or qualify creators a little bit more before you actually send them the sample to make sure they're actually you have a decent chance of them actually creating content for you. >> Yeah. So, that one's actually an easy one because there's a fulfillment percentage which isn't the best, but it's like basically a post, right? So, it's like if they get a 100 samples, like what percentage of the time do they actually make a video and tag the product? And so generally we're looking at like a 70% and above. So that's like relatively easy to like kind of filter for. um some things that they're and then so I think some brands maybe what they're not accounting for is like you know they're thinking about it only in terms of like number of creators or um or number of samples but ultimately the better north star is actually just number of shoppable videos because ultimately if I get to let's say if I'm shooting >> what's a sho what's a explain a shoppable video someone that may not not know what that means. Yeah, sorry. So, a shoppable video on Tik Tok is basically a video that tags a product because before Tik Tok shop, you would just create a bunch of videos and none nothing was tagged, right? Which is a normal video. But then since Tik Tok shop, >> so you have to look in the comments or something. There'd be a URL on the screen or you have to look in the comments or the whatever. >> It's not in the comments actually. It's actually in the video on the bottom left. >> No, the old way. The old way. Now, now the new way is that little little icon that floats over top. Right. >> Exactly. little orange cards like at the bottom left and you can just click on that and that's what makes it such a seamless >> uh you know experience versus like yeah to your point like if you're on Instagram or some other social platform like you have to go click on this link and then go you know purchase on on some random website wherever whether it's Amazon or like a Shopify cart but within Tik Tok shop is that you click on that orange cart and then now you're on a landing you're on a like on a a listing page so you can basically basally buy it right there and then continue um you know scrolling through videos really quickly and your credit card save address is save so it's a really seamless experience um but yeah I think so yeah so that's a shoppable video but ultimately your northstar should be the shoppable videos not necessarily your number of creators like obviously you don't want one creator to do 400 videos that kind of defeats the purpose because it's like they're probably going to be lazy about it but like if I have a more expensive product, then basically instead of sending out a ton of samples, maybe I'll do some samples to higher GMV creators, especially if I have like a higher perceived value product, like say it's like 60 bucks, 80 bucks, whatever. But then I'm going to maybe get more creators on retainer so that I send less samples, but I'm basically driving down my cost per video by putting retainers up front versus if I have a cheap product like a beauty or supplement product that's whatever $3 and I don't really care. Then I might shift more towards sampling less the creators on retainer. But ultimately the I should be thinking about like the number of shovel videos that I'm targeting based on my competition in the category, not necessarily a number of creators or a number of samples. Um and so I think that's a like a common misconception. Uh I would also be thinking about like yeah just like how many videos am I getting per sample? I think that's really really important. So like yeah to your point it's like yeah are are people following through? But then two, am I following like once they post, am I following up with them? Am I thanking them? Am I motivating them? Am I giving them feedback? And that's a lot of what our team does to ideally get that instead of it being a onetoone one video to uh or one sample to one video. It's like can I get can I convince them to do another two videos because ultimately that you know basically triples the ROI of each sample that I'm sending and it increases the likelihood that one of those videos hits, right? um especially if you're giving them feedback and then now they're improving on their videos. So I think like um other hidden costs I mean I think a lot of people forget to add uh separate your commission from like organic to ads. So they only do they basically pay organic commission on everything which doesn't make sense because naturally you should have a lower commission for sales driven by ads and so it drives down your weighted average and commission rate. So, I think that's something that they're kind of overpaying on that they don't think about. Um, but yeah, and then I think the smart promotions came came out earlier this year. So, there's an additional 3 and a half% and then one 1% during campaigns like Black Friday, Cyber Monday or Deals for You Days, but that's like an additional 4 and a.5% that people are not really factoring in a lot of the time. Um, but yeah, I think those are kind of the main things. How much do you typically recommend someone pay a pay a creator? >> Is it maybe more when you're trying to launch and you just give them more of the sale just so you can get going and then you you downscale that or what's a you know some people are very stingy there. I'm only going to give them five or 10%. Some people look at like a launch a cost on Amazon. I'm going to give them 80% for the first month and have a contest and then it'll be 25% after that. or what are what are some just ballpark numbers people should be playing with in their head when it comes to what you pay? >> Yeah, it's a great question. Uh I yeah, again splitting it in terms of like organic versus ads. I think generally what I see is like 15 to 30% on an organic and then probably like 8 to 15 for ads. Uh, and again >> for ads, it's that way just to explain to people because you're putting ads behind the creator does it organically. It works. You go to the creator say, "Hey, I'll throw ad throw money behind this to use your video, but we got to come down off your rate because I got to spend some money in ads." And they're usually like, "Yeah, if you're going to spend the money to promote it, it's free money for me." >> Uh, that's basically the mentality, right? >> Yeah. there less of that conversation because it's all automated and truth max works is kind of annoying where they when they're looking at the ROI they're looking at both your organic sales and your advertising sales. So truthfully >> you're going to get this like kind of blended rate anyways. Um, but yeah, generally that's like kind of the idea is like the creator is willing to take this lower percentage for advertising sales because it just means overall more sa more commission and more sales for them. um versus like if it's only going to be organic uh then ultimately that video is not going to live really long and most sales today are driven on Tik Tok shop by advertising and so um so yeah but that is the reason why there is a lower commission um Tik Tok too now I mean they they came out with the max where basically you don't do your own bidding they kind of do it all for you and now they just just a few weeks ago a month ago they announced something basically it's going to well they're going to almost be like your agency and it's going to potentially put some of the agencies out of business. What do you know about about that? >> Yeah, I'd heard about that. I haven't heard too much about it. Um truthfully I'm not really concerned. It's kind of like you know you've worked with Amazon account managers, right? Like >> yeah like it's kind of a joke the least like the last I would take advice from truthfully. And so I'm not as concerned. Yeah, honestly. Um, but yeah, I mean, I have heard that they're they're planning on doing that, which I think is really interesting. Ultimately, what are they going to tell you? They're going to tell you to spend more. They're going to say spend, you know, it's just like what Amazon reps do, right? It's just like, you need to spend more. You need to drop your price. Uh, you need to give away more samples. Like, they don't like have a ton of strategy, truthfully. And so, yeah, I think um I think if anything, it just kind of legitimizes the industry a little bit more and kind of honestly probably just creates more contrast because the advice that they're going to get is not going to be awesome. Hey, Kevin King and Norm Ferrar here. If you've been enjoying this episode of Marketing Misfits, thanks for listening this far. Continue listening. We got some more valuable stuff coming up. Be sure to hit that subscribe button if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast player or if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify. Make sure you subscribe to our channel because you don't want to miss a single episode of The Marketing Misfits. Have you subscribed yet, Norm? >> Well, this is an old guy alert. Should I subscribe to my own podcast? >> Yeah, but what if you forget to show up one time? It's just me on here. You're not going to know what I say. >> I'll I'll buy you a beard and you can sit in my chair, too. We'll just You can go back and forth with one another. Yikes. But that being said, don't forget to subscribe, share it. Oh, and if you really like this content, somewhere up there, there's a banner. Click on it, and you'll go to another episode of The Marketing Misfits. Make sure you don't miss a single episode because you don't want to be like Norm. >> Well, Fernando, this has been awesome. Uh but we're at the end of the hour here. So uh if people wanted to reach out and find out more about what you do or get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that? >> Yeah. Um well, yeah, you can always check out our website, hivehq.ai, or you can reach out to me personally at FernandoHivehq.ai. Um and then I post a lot on YouTube, so you can just search Fernando Campost Tik Tok shop. I'm sure I'll come up. Um and then I'm releasing a video each week kind of talking about what's what's going on in the Tik Tok world. Awesome. And uh the last question that Norm normally will ask you is like, "Hey, do you know do you know a misfit? Someone that we might want to uh interview on the podcast that would be that thinks outside the box like you do?" >> Yeah. Um I would talk to Brandon Himmel from Roughliners. He's been doing a lot of like um cool interviews and he's got a >> he's got a fast growing brand on Tik Tok. He's doing really well. >> Yeah. He was on Shark Tank I think too, wasn't he? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh >> I think I met him at one of the MDS MDS parties and he had already shot it, but he could he had to be hush hush, you know, about anything that happened in there. But uh cool. That that's awesome, man. We'll reach out to that's a good that's a good reminder. Um reach out to him >> for sure. Yeah, if you ever want an intro, I'm happy to pick up for you, too. >> Awesome. Well, man, I really appreciate you coming on and catching up and sharing uh what's going on and sharing some good strategies with us today. >> Yeah, man. Of course. Thanks so much for having me. It was nice to catch up. >> Awesome. Um, sorry Norm wasn't here, but uh we we we still uh still made a good podcast. Uh even without you, Norm, so we got along okay. So uh just get better. And speaking of uh podcast, if you want to see all the podcasts, every single Tuesday we come out with a brand new episode of the Marketing Misfits. You can find those at marketingmisfits.co. You can go to our YouTube channel. We have a clips channel there and a fulllength channel. We have clips on Tik Tok. And then we take the podcast and we actually create a newsletter out of it. So we repurpose it, repurpose the the content into newsletters because not everybody wants to listen to a 1-hour podcast or doesn't have time, but they want the nuggets and they want the information of uh what people at Fernando shared. So check that out at misfits.news at misfits.news. Other than that, uh we'll see you again next week. Thanks everybody.