When Growth Isn’t the Goal: Rebuilding for Freedom, Not Burnout with Blake Denman | Ep #806

When Growth Isn’t the Goal: Rebuilding for Freedom, Not Burnout with Blake Denman | Ep #806 Speaker 2: Hey, Blake, welcome to the show. Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. Speaker 2: Excited to have you on. Tell us who you are, what you do. Speaker 1: My name is Blake Denman. I'm the president and founder of Rickety Roo Inc. We are a remote-based agency specializing in SEO, local SEO, paid search marketing, team of 13 spread out across the country. We have one Canadian. Yeah, founded the agency February of 2009. So been doing it for a while. Just a little bit. Speaker 2: How'd you come up with the name? I like the name. Speaker 1: Thanks. Yeah, totally random. The telemarketing company I used to work at, I was a production manager and then ran their paperclip division before I went out on my own. They started doing mass layoffs and they lay off a whole bunch of my friends. And so we're all hanging out. And I just kind of threw it out there like, why don't we start our own company? We're the ones who do all the work. We know what we're doing. They got all excited. We're trying to come up with a name. The name Rikki Roop popped in my head. I threw it out there. They liked it. I popped the domain name. Four or six months later, I went on my own. I needed a business name. People seem to think the name is cute. It implies nothing about what we do. And like rickety is not a very strong word. It's like built on shaky foundation and just been romantic ever since. Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it. And how did you get started in the agency life? What's the story there? Speaker 1: Initially, like when I went on my own, I was just freelancing and I had a couple clients. I was able to work four to six hours a week and pay all my bills and rent. I was able to focus on school. I was going down a completely different career path. And then six months in, I suffered a severe traumatic brain injury. When you're in your early-ish 20s, you think you're invincible. I was ready to fix your road bike with no helmet and no brakes. 20 miles into a ride, busy intersection, walked up, went up and over the bars, landed straight on my head, which killed that career path. And then for a little bit, just was kind of trying to figure out what to do next. And then started getting a couple new clients and realized it would be cool if I didn't have to do all of the work, including all the admin. I even did my corporate taxes one year, which that was a horrible mistake. There was no issues, but it took me like two full days and then hired my first coach 2019. And that's when he had built what I was trying to accomplish. So he was able to give me a lot of the frameworks and a lot of the upcoming pitfalls. And that's when we started really growing. Speaker 2: So going back to the telemarketing or company, when you guys came up with the name, was that before the freelancing or was that kind of middle? Speaker 1: That was before I had freelancing. That was about four to six months before I left that company and then went on my own. Speaker 2: Cool. What's been the biggest kind of pivot that has happened in the past couple of years for you in the agency? Not from the starting out phase, but, you know, has there been like a certain pivot that really made a difference in your agency? Speaker 1: I have strategic hires that require me to let go. And that's like been one of the... Speaker 2: That been hard for you in the past to let go? Speaker 1: A hundred percent, like this is like, this is like my first child, right? I have a two year old daughter and operations was the last thing I truly let go of in like for the past 16 years. Like I've been forming, I've been directly involved. Like I knew exactly what the path was. And then once I hired my VP of ops, it was kind of like that John Travolta meme from Pulp Fiction. Like it's like, what do I do now? Like, this is like my, so much of me is in here, but now I don't, What do I do now? Oh, focus on this. It's like, okay. And it's so weird, like version of emptiness syndrome or something where it's like, oh, this company is now its own thing. It doesn't need me. 40 to 60 hours a week anymore. It was kind of like I hit this. It was more of like an identity paralysis, not crisis is a process. And I just kind of had to sit there and be like, what do I want my life to look like? Speaker 2: It's a self worth thing. Don't you think? I identified myself. As an agency owner, so when I sold my agency, I felt like I sold my soul because I didn't realize I'm more than an agency owner. I'm creative. I'm innovative. You know, I like building things like I was like, oh, I can do other things, right? Speaker 1: Yeah, but there's so many things and you go like, oh, my gosh. There's like 10,000 different ideas. And if you include like ChatGPT or Claude into the mix, it just makes it far, far worse because there's infinite possibilities, right? Like, oh yeah, I could go back to school and go do this now. I'm 40 years old. Yeah, sure. Why not? Speaker 2: Do you go to AI and ask it questions like it's the best friend? I know I do. We even got to the extent where we created this marketing agent and we named it. We named it Charlie Maverick What was the last name? We just named it yesterday because I kept referencing it as my friend. I'm always like, thank you. Speaker 1: I have a special project folder in Claude where I've uploaded most of the chats within that project are personal related stuff. I've even asked it like, Can you please help me identify my strengths and weaknesses? Because I don't really even know what they are. I think I have an idea, but I don't really know. I've been asked lots of different philosophical type questions. I've gone down a couple rabbit holes, but also I read a lot. And back to the question you're talking about with identity, something that I've done for the last couple of years that makes complete sense, but hardly anybody ever does it. It's like when we're running an agency, it's like, okay, here's our pro forma for the year. Here's the KPIs. Here's our curly rocks, whatever you want to call it, our OKRs. So okay, here's like the goal, right? But then when it comes to our personal lives, we do none of that. So then literally, pen and paper, sit down and go, what do I want my ideal year to look like professionally, personally, trips, purchases, etc. And then plot all that out. And then look at it and go, okay, how much income do I need to make in order to live this ideal year? And we're always left to believe like, it's always too far away. The first time I did it, I was like 1500 bucks per month off. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: It's like, what? This is mad. Like, this is crazy. Speaker 2: You know, most people I chat with, especially when they're at the point where they want to sell their agency. And I actually talk them out of it. I'm like, what do you want to sell? Oh, so I can go do this, this and this. I'm like, well, walk me through the business. And I'm like, hey, you can actually go do this now. You don't need to sell. And they're like, oh, I never thought about it that way. We're so far away, but we're so close. We don't realize it. But I like how you map that out because I get to a point in my agency where I pivoted, where I was even taking an interview with another job because I was going to close down the agency, not because we weren't profitable. We were extremely profitable. I was doing so much in the agency that I hated, I needed to get rid of. And then I realized I was like, Just like you did. I was like, I need to build this business around me. And you know, people might call it a lifestyle business, but And that's what it is, but lifestyle businesses can be extremely profitable and you can sell it. But I think everybody should build the business around what they like and what they don't like. The people that don't, they just struggle. You work 20 years to sell your agency, and then what do you have, a good 10 years before your body shuts out and you can't do all the fun, epic stuff? Like, go do it now. Speaker 1: Yeah. Have you ever heard of the book, Die With Zero? It's a great book. It doesn't like literally mean die with zero legacy money to pass on to your family and kids. It's way more about looking at like where we save all this money and then we're going to do all the things we want to do in retirement. Well, guess what, buddy? By the time you hit that age, you won't be able to do half of the things you do because your body isn't capable. And the thing I really loved about that book that really flipped the switch for me was Look at these life events experiences as investments too because they will pay dividends for the rest of your life like compound interest. Which really kind of like shaped like, oh, yeah, that makes so much logical sense. I should do that now because I won't be able to do this 30 years from now. Speaker 2: Yeah. Do you design? So what I started doing many years ago, and it's made my life so much better. I started designing my life based down to the week to the day. And so I basically would say, I'm not doing any meetings on Monday. I'm going to do epic stuff on Friday. I'm going to hang out with my family, Saturdays, Sundays. And then down to the day, I'm like, I'm only doing meetings Tuesday through Thursday, nine to two. That's it. And it just allowed me to design the whole business around that. Which is time, right? Like we get into this business because we want freedom. But in the very beginning, we're freaking prisoner to this agency, to this business, because like a client calls late at night, oh, I don't want to lose him. Let me get on a call. But like I found by creating those rules, and then coming up with why I want to do those rules, that made my life so much happier. Speaker 1: I live and die by my calendar. If it's not on my calendar, it doesn't exist. My calendar is color-coded based on like, is this business dev related? Is it client related? Is it internal related? Or is it focus time related? Mondays are no call days. Like those are my deep work type days. Like I start with like weekly planning after I do like my morning routine and Okay, what's the big thing I need to accomplish this week for growth of the agency? And then kind of like map out from there. I used to be super ADHD about it and like have 15 minute events. And then what would happen is something else would like come up that I would have to... And then looking at my calendar, I'd be like, this is not working. Where I've gotten way better at just putting like time blocks, like three, four hour chunks and saying like, okay, this is interrelated for ops or check-ins, et cetera. This is focus time. I may not know exactly what it is, but it's focus time. So that way there's a lot, there's more flexibility. It's not stupid black and white. Speaker 2: Hey, agency owners, if you're sticking with one platform for every project, you're probably stuck in a growth bottleneck. More clients means more hires, which adds noise and cuts into profits. To break the loop, you need a more flexible tool that doesn't stretch your resources. Now, Wix Studio is a smart addition to your agency's toolkit. Intuitive by design, your team can quickly master the platform and focus on the work that matters the most. Now, with robust native business solutions, Like booking, e-comm, and events, you can take on any project at any scale without adding cost to third party plugins. Plus, Wix Studio is a low maintenance platform, meaning you can redirect client budget toward real growth initiatives. Think more value for your clients, steady income stream, and stronger relationships. Scale your agency at wixstudio.com. Do you ever audit your calendar? Like look back over the past two weeks and kind of, I've done this where I'll print out my calendar for the past two weeks and then I'll highlight it. Green or red? Green gave me energy, red drained the shit out of me. Right? It'd be like, I don't want to do any more of these type of meetings. Have you ever done that? Speaker 1: Many years ago, the first coach I worked with, we do a time audit where average work week and then in a sheet, four separate columns numbered 550, 500, 5,000. My time is worth $5,000 per hour. Where is my time spent? I figured I was going to be way more in the 50 and 500. And lo and behold, I was like way more left-sided in the five and 50. It's like, okay, anything below 500, I need to delegate or outsource to somebody else. It's not where I can focus on the things that really impact the business. But then with calls, I hate saying the word sales. Sure, it's sales. But at the same time, all I'm doing is I'm showing a potential lead. We don't have a deck. I'm showing them, here's the stuff I see. I'm listening for pain points, red flags from them. It's just more of a conversation. I really enjoy those but at the same time they also drain my energy like i can't switch from that to. Highly technical types of tasks like tuesday thursday tuesday is usually like mainly like internal check ins with different departments on the department level sink. It's like, I know I'm not going to get anything highly technical done that day, but I do have an app that I use on a daily basis and not an affiliate for them, but like it's... What's it called? Brain.fm. Okay. So it's music that is scientifically backed to get your brain state into like the right mode that you're looking for. So they have it for like, they have them for like meditation, they have it for deep sleep. They have it for creativity. They have it for like motivation. They also have it for deep work. Speaker 2: And that's where they have the heavy metal playing. Speaker 1: I've got some playlists for stuff like that too, but you can customize and say like, okay, I want acoustic or I want electronic or I want rock. And within a couple minutes, like it gets you into that state. Speaker 2: That's cool. Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like 40 or 50 bucks a year. It's I like it so much. I offer it to everybody on my team. Like, hey, if you want this, we will pay for it. Like, please just let us know. So we have a team account. Highly recommend. Speaker 2: I'll have to check that out. Well, Blake, this has been a lot of fun. Is there anything I didn't ask you that you think would benefit the listeners listening in? Speaker 1: Depending on like where a lot of like your listeners are at. For a long period of time, I thought like, okay, I want to keep growing the agency and get to seven, eight, nine figures in revenue, and then I'll be happy. And then I learned about the Hedonic treadmill. It's like, oh, what am I actually trying to build? Then it ties back into what type of lifestyle, what type of life do I want for myself? And then build around that instead of focusing on an arbitrary number. And then once I hit, oh, once I'm able to, if we're averaging 20% net profit and it's all mine, right? And we're doing 5 million a year, it's like, okay, now what am I doing with that money? Am I just like stack or am I spending it? What am I doing? Do I even need that much? Just kind of gets more down to instead of like chasing growth for growth sake. Like, okay, like why? Literally, what's the point? Because if you're like, oh, you have this goal of buying a brand new shiny car. Cool. You're going to get that car for about five days. You're going to feel really good. And then you're going to go right back to your baseline. But now you've got a heavier monthly expense plus expensive auto insurance, etc. Speaker 2: Yeah, there's always the next thing, right? Like when you're just chasing stuff. And I found earlier in my career, I was chasing growth more for other people than myself. And actually I'll probably reverse that. I was chasing it more for them to accept me. Like I wanted them to know that I was successful. I was looking for their acceptance. And I think a lot of times when I chat with other agency owners and entrepreneurs, They're just looking for validation and acceptance from their peers for hitting a number. But going back to what you were saying is, I love that you go, this is what I want to do all year. What do I need to make? And then you're like, oh my God, I'm only $1,500 off on that. I can find that. And then you can go get it. And then you're living your best life. That's the whole thing. You don't know if you have 10 years. You don't know if you have 50 years or a year or minutes, whatever it is. And especially the older and dumber I get, the more gray hair I get, I'm like, dude, time is the most precious thing. Surround yourself with amazing clients and surround yourself with amazing team members and partners. And, you know, just enjoy it, right? Because I look back at my time at the agency. I'm like, man, it was so much fun. Like, I remember all the crappy things that happened at the time, but I'm like, those are the things I remember. Those are the character building moments. Those are what shaped us. I learned more from failures than I learned from my successes. And then, you know, you can kind of take that and just live a good life or a great life. Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like on I have a tattoo on my hand can probably put up that is Latin. It says Memento Mori and it literally translates to you must die. And like right now, like this is the present moment and neither one of us are guaranteed another hour, another day, another week, month, year, et cetera, right? And which like really kind of makes you right-sized. But then back to like, oh, we chase numbers for the acceptance and validation from our peers. And it's like, okay, like do you currently accept and validate yourself for who you are, where you're currently at right now? Because getting that external validation It's not going to feel like what you're ultimately trying to be okay with, which is just yourself. That goes into this whole other hypothesis I have with agency owners, especially in digital marketing. It takes a certain type of business person to be an entrepreneur, let alone a digital marketing agency owner, right? And usually you've had to like, had a pretty interesting, that's the word I'll use, interesting upbringing in order to make it where, like I, when everything's on fire around me, I'm calm, cool, and collected. I know exactly what to do and I'm focused. Where like, the more adversity, the more pressure I'm under, like a diamond, like I just shine. And then it kind of ties into, there's this scoring system that Kaiser Permanente developed years ago, that the CDC has a whole thing on, it's called ACEs, Adverse Childhood Experiences. And which also directly affects your physical and mental health too. Like if you score a three or higher instances of high blood pressure, heart disease, cancer, autoimmune disease, mental health issues, addiction, all of it just skyrockets. And every agency owner I've asked in my network to like take that test like on their own, there's 10 questions. They score a minimum of three. It's not like some trauma measuring contest. It's just more of like, it's just information. Where it's like, oh, but then people I know that aren't agency owners ask and take in, they're usually like maybe a one, maybe a two. Speaker 2: Yeah, it's, it's really interesting. Like I was telling you kind of the pre-show, like I find most agency owners have ADD or dyslexia too. And, you know, I think it's just, we like solving problems and we have a hyper focus on marketing or solving those problems. And, and like when things kind of get hard or. Hard for most people, it's kind of like, all right, cool. Like this, this is fun. Like it's a puzzle. Let's see how we can kind of put this together and figure it out. And then almost time, a lot of times we try to create chaos to bring that back. Like when you're like, what can I fuck up right now? Like that's how I felt like. Speaker 1: Yep. A hundred percent. I've manufactured chaos in the agency, in my personal life. Because that's what normal is. Like that's like the normal state. And then going against that life, I mean, I have a whole, can't see it here, but like I have a whole sleeve. And part of that tattoo is like, My life used to be very, very exciting. Life was very black and white. It was either a 9 or a 10, amazing, massive ups or massive down, 0 or 1. Like, oh my God, we just lost this whale of a client I've represented. And this has happened a couple of different times in the past 16 years where we've had one huge client that represented anywhere from two-thirds of agency revenue to like 40%. And then they go away out of nowhere and you go, uh-oh, We're in trouble. And then within three months, all that business is replaced and then some and going like, okay, how do I create that anxiety, that stress without the actual thing happening? And I got a recommendation from Claude on how to do this, which I don't know if I could do it. Maybe I should just to see what happens, but it's allocating X amount of money and say like, okay, if I don't hit this individual, this goal, this metric, whatever it is, I have to take that money and donate it to a charity I do not like. Speaker 2: I like the do not like, and I've done that with other people because like, you're like, oh, if I donate it to the ones I like, then they're like, and you feel good. Yeah. Speaker 1: Yeah, but to a charity or you can throw a political organization in there that you do not like, that's just huge motivation. A lot of pressure. Speaker 2: I had this idea, you know, after I sold the agency, before I got into this, I don't think I've ever told anybody this. I created this, this site. I wanted to help people lose weight because I was thinking about myself, right? Like I've always struggled with not being, you know, I've always been athletic and fit, but there's always like, I got a little chub to me, right? Like, you know, I'd like to get rid of some love handles. And so with that in mind, the company I was going to create was called Chubby Busters. And if you wanted to lose weight, like, so let's say I said, Blake, I want to lose 20 pounds. You're going to be my Chubby Buster friend. I posted a very, very picture of me, like, you know, my gut hanging out or whatever it is, or droopy, whatever. And I want you to be my Chubby Buster partner. Speaker 1: Yeah. Cause then you got like four days left and like, I've got 15 pounds to lose and then you go full throttle. Speaker 2: Yeah. You get sick pretty quick. So, um, I killed that idea, but I had the best song. It was going to be like off the ghost buster song, like when you feeling fat and you know, you're just going down the hole and uh, yeah, so never did it. Probably never going to do it. Hopefully no one ever does it either. So. Well, Blake, this has been awesome. Thanks so much for coming on the show and sharing your wisdom and how you've created a really amazing agency. Great life, so congrats on that. And for everyone listening, one of the things I found over the years to make Growing and scaling the agency and being happy over the years is being around amazing people that understand what you're going through, can share what's working, can see the things that you might not be able to see. And that's why we've created the Agency Mastermind. So if you go to agencymastery.io, apply, and we can have a conversation and see if this community is right for you. And until next time, have a Swenk day.