Unlock Your Podcasting Potential as an Amazing Host or Guest with Traci DeForge | Ep #757

Unlock Your Podcasting Potential as an Amazing Host or Guest with Traci DeForge | Ep #757 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Smart Agency Masterclass, a decade of interviewing the smartest agency owners all over the world to show you how to start, scale, and possibly sell your agency one day. I have a question for you. Are you tired of being stuck in the daily grind, but you're scared to let go and really drive real growth because you don't know how? Now, it's time to break out of that rut, and I want you to level up. I want you to join me and a select group of like-minded, incredible agency owners for Elevate. Now, this just isn't another networking event. It's your chance to really transform into the leader and the agency CEO you've always wanted to be. Elevate is a place where you're going to make meaningful connections with other top-tier agency leaders who are openly sharing their game-changing strategies to really help gain clarity and boost your confidence while fostering relationships that will last beyond the event. Head over to elevatemyagency.com and grab your spot so you can level up. Go to elevatemyagency.com now. Hey Traci, welcome to the show. Speaker 1: Hello. Thanks for having me on the show. Speaker 2: Yeah. Tell us who you are and what you do. Speaker 1: Well, I'm Traci DeForge and I'm the founder and CEO of Produce Your Podcast. And we are an award-winning podcast and marketing agency. We serve business owners, consultants, companies that are driving revenues through their podcasts. And we are well known for playing a key role in clients leveraging their podcasts for revenue growth. Speaker 2: Awesome. Well, I want to ask you a question that I get bothered by people all day long and people always constantly pitching their people to come on your show. I literally should set up like a GoFundMe page for them because I get like literally 30 a day of, hey, I have a great guest and they put all this information on there. And one of the things I do believe, I love what you guys are doing and many other people are doing because getting on podcasts can grow your business because it expands your reach and all that. What are the best ways to pitch to get on podcasts? Speaker 1: Well, first of all, thank you for me making the cut because I was already excited to be on your show, but to know that there was that level of competition, I really appreciate the place I'm standing in right now. But in all honesty, to answer your question, I think one of the most important things that a person who's pitching a show can do is have actually listened to the show before they even send the pitch in the first place. I think one of the things that I feel is the most frustrating for me personally My job is to get an outreach that someone's taken the time to create and send, but even more importantly, my time to read and realize that they absolutely have no idea who I am, what the show is about, or what the benefit to my audience would be. And at the end of the day, the appearance is not what's in it for you as the guest or even you as the host. It's what kind of value can you bring to the audience that's using their extremely coveted window of time that they're choosing to spend with you. And if you can articulate that well and succinctly, then I think you have a better than average chance than most people because you've listened to the show, you understand the value you can bring to the audience, and you're showing up prepared just in the initial conversation. And that's always going to be a good indicator of what type of guests you're going to be as well. Speaker 2: My biggest pet peeve is the long pitch. I'm like, I don't have time for that. And I do appreciate when people, but like, I see how they can kind of automate it too. So they'll be like, I love how the Smart Agency Masterclass hyphen Jason Swenk is doing. And I love the past episode. And you can tell it's all copied and pasted. I love when people personalize it like you were saying, and they go, hey, I liked the episode that you did of Guy Kawasaki, and I loved the topic that you talked about here. I actually have a different point of view, or I actually disagree with that. Then I'd be like, huh, how do you disagree with him? Let's put you on. Speaker 1: That's pretty audacious, but let's make it happen. No, I agree. And I think any type of true personalization is great. But at the end of the day, there's just got to be that synergy between what you have created and built in 10 years of doing your podcast. You have a very solid, incredible reputation with your audience and in general, of course, but you have to protect the relationship that you build with your audience. And you owe them that. And so I think if anyone can just really take that into consideration, that it's not just pitching to be a name on your show adjacent to Guy Kawasaki. It's truly about providing value for your audience and respecting the fact that that's why you're showing up for every episode for 10 consecutive years. They trust you. And so they're going to trust who you put behind the mic. Speaker 2: Yeah. What are some tips for people that There's a lot of, you know, obviously our audience is all agency owners and a lot of them, I tell them, I said, well, if you're not going to create a podcast, Which I always tell them is a mistake if they don't do it. Like I literally had Philip from our mastermind, he sent me an email and then I jumped on a Zoom with him and he goes, I wish you flew down to Florida and slap me around a little bit about two years ago when you told me to do a podcast because I started doing a podcast and we're generating so much business from it. And I was like, I told you, but for those people that are going to, you know, not do it right away, but that are actually going to start getting on other people's shows, what are some things they need to do to be prepared and to be the best guest where they provide great value to the show, but also it drives business to them? Speaker 1: Right. So initially, in order to show up and be a great guest for the show, it's not all that different than what we were talking about in terms of pitching the show, but you want to have listened to some episodes before. You want to really be prepared for how a host opens a show. For example, if you have a unique way of opening your show, you don't want to be caught off guard by that. Like, for example, I listened to multiple episodes that you I have released and I knew that the first question you're going to ask me was the first question that you asked me because that's a very consistent way that you open your show. I was prepared for that answer. If you always end your show in a certain way by asking rapid fire questions or two or three very specific questions that you consistently ask in every episode, then that's something that a guest would want to know in advance so that they're not caught off guard and they can come and be their best selves. But as you also indicated, it is a great opportunity as a strategic source. Let me say that three times really fast. Speaker 2: I couldn't do that either. Speaker 1: Strategic source of revenue. But it's such a great thing to say, strategic source of revenue. You want to be sure that you're also Being able to come across to the audience without it being an infomercial, you want to share education, you want to share inspiration, you want to share really relevant information about you and your business, but not in a way that's going to be an entire conversation around the sales pitch for you and your business. That being said, however, don't underestimate the power of a really good call to action. And that perception is reality. Some people think a good call to action is to list off 15 different ways people can connect with you and a downloadable PDF and a rate and review and a, and a, and a. And that is actually not a good call to action. A good call to action is one very specific request that enables you to continue the conversation with your audience. After the podcast, after they've consumed the podcast and make it easy and fairly friction-free to do so. And that's how you can really benefit from guesting on other podcasts. And if ideally you have a podcast while you're doing that, then it would be to connect via that other podcast because there's no better way to expose and grow a show than to an audience that's already consuming podcast content that's similar to what you share. But the call to action, that one really clear, warm invite call to action is the hill that I will die on. Speaker 2: Yeah. It drives me crazy when people are like, oh, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they give you a thousand things. I'm like, make it really easy. And also too, I think you can add, it's kind of what I call like, you know, pumping in the popcorn smell in the movie theater throughout the show. When I learned this many years ago, I originally started this podcast from listening to Pat Flynn, the Smart Passive Income podcast and Smart Agency Masterclass podcast, right? Real original. But I remember when I got on Pat's show and I got on there and it was when I was promoting our book, Accelerating Your Agency, but I always just kept referencing book. Oh, in the book, it talks about this. And I remember my coach at the time was like, dude, you totally missed the boat. Like you should have been saying the name or referencing certain stories. Like a lot of times all of you guys hear me reference stories from mastermind member success. You know, Jennifer just shared out in Slack. She was like, hey, I sold my agency. I'm retiring. I'm doing nothing. And like everyone was celebrating. It's like, you know, share those stories. And then people are like, oh, I actually want that. Maybe you can help me with that and then they'll reach out when you have that easy call to action that you mentioned. Speaker 1: Right. I think that's really important to be able to, what you're essentially saying is what the power of podcasting is all about, which is the storytelling piece. And if you, even if you're not a natural storyteller, if you can just identify two or three that you feel comfortable with that are natural for you to share, and you can integrate those into the conversation in a way that's not staged or phony, People like to hear stories and especially for you, if they're success stories, then that does set up this ability for you to have a like-minded connection with either a pain point that someone's experiencing that they need a solution for or an aspirational goal that they want to meet, but they're just not 100% sure either that they have the blueprint for how to get there or even more importantly, they may be striving for that blueprint, but they're still on the fence of whether or not you're the right person. The ability to host your own show especially can really drive good conversions on service-based businesses because you do have the opportunity to experience what it would look like, feel like, sound like to literally work with that person. Anyone can write a blog post. Now there's a lot of support to write them for you. Anyone can create ads and things like that. But to have a real, genuine, sincere conversation about a business that you're an expert in and that you're passionate about, that's something that can't be done in a way that, I mean, you can't fake your voice, the natural energy of it. I mean, I'm hesitating only because AI is coming so fast. AI does that. But regardless, there's really just your true message and what you're saying. I mean, our voice is the most powerful vehicle. It's where thoughts get stuck. It's where if we're feeling uncomfortable or fearful, we may pause or stumble. So, just the absolute genuine sincerity of what comes through your voice cannot be replicated. And when you're evaluating someone's services, You really want to feel like they're the real deal for you, but for you. Speaker 2: I saw something the other day. And I researched it and I was able to replicate it. And so it's using a couple different tools. It's scary. You can use Feedly to pull in news articles. And if you bookmark them, whatever you bookmark, it's going to create it into a Google Drive document. So let's say I do that three times and I do it once a day. Then it's going to take that, it's going to put your intro and your outro on it. It's going to read it through an AI software that does your voice. And you can either put it at a scale one to 10, like a one would, or like a 10 would be like, this is Jason, like very monotone. One would be like, this is Jason, like very animated. So you can figure out that. Then it could actually come up with a title, the description and post it to Lipsyn for the podcast hosting. It can do it automatically by you just going through whatever news source going, I like that article. And it integrates with ChatGPT to write it. And I was just, I was blown away. I'm like, holy shit. It's already here. And for the really innovative and creative people, like you can create things very easy, but it doesn't have that emotion. That people can, I think they listen to the show and they're like, all right, is he going to drop the F-bomb here? Or if someone says something like it doesn't do that yet, which I hope it doesn't because I think I always tell everybody that listens to the show, you know, people are always going to want authentic and community and not just robotic. And that's the good thing about when you can build an audience, whether it be Even if, you know, some podcasts for agencies, they get like 50 listeners a month. I'm like, that's cool, man. Like you were in an auditorium presenting to 50 of your perfect clients. Speaker 1: Consistently. That's the thing. Over and over again to a very qualified audience. And I think that so many people do get hung up on downloads and the amount of downloads, and especially when it comes to monetization, that they don't think that it's possible to monetize with smaller audiences. But just to circle back really quickly to close the loop on what you were saying. All of that is possible and it's getting better and better the more that the technology is being used and trained, but it's never going to be able to replace a conversation like what we're having right now. And if you are using your podcast as that strategic growth resource for revenue, then you need to be able to walk the walk and talk the talk. If you are pulling something someone else wrote in and ChatGPTing it to feel more like yourself and maybe adding a little bit of yourself into it and then having it voiced in a variation of your voice, That might get you into the top of the funnel with people, but people are getting extremely, as they should, very discerning about who they do business with and where they allocate the monies that they have to do business with. And when you get into the trenches with people, you better be able to back it up what you were putting out there, and that needs to be congruent. And I still stand by the fact that no matter how the technology, how quickly the technology is moving, it is not replacing the dynamics that we are experiencing here in this moment. And then the secondary thing in terms of how that builds that bridge into downloads, it's very interesting, is that people are now looking for subject matter experts. Information around subjects and they're not necessarily looking vertically in terms of whether you have 1.2 million followers for that subject matter. They're searching the subject and if you are putting content out there through podcast, through YouTube, through other vehicles, the more you're sharing out your honest, legitimate voice and your subject matter expertise, you're going to start to show up in more places. And the amount of downloads isn't going to be the determining factor as much as how often, how good the content is and how frequently people are able to find it when they're seeking it. So, you just have to be really mindful that it may be efficiency, it may help save some steps, but it's never going to replace the expertise that you have and your perspective that you can put on that expertise. Speaker 2: One of the most stressful things about running an agency is proposal. It feels like controlled chaos, right? You rush to get them out the door with complete accuracy, just hoping you don't miss something crucial. One wrong move could lead to costly mistakes or possibly not landing the deal at all. That's why I'm excited about Smart Pricing Table. It's an award-winning proposal software built just for marketing agencies. Now, it's designed to handle your unique challenges and cut down the time you spend on proposal as much as 90%. With Smart Pricing Table, you're going to turn your crazy process into a smooth, predictable system that works for you, not against you. Oh, and by the way, the creator is a former agency owner and a past Mastermind member, so you know Smart Pricing Table is built with the right strategies behind it. Say goodbye to the proposal stress and hello to confidence. Go to SmartPricingTable.com slash Smart Agency to see if this is the missing piece your agency is looking for. Plus, just for the listeners, schedule a demo and get half off for the first two months. Check out SmartPricingTable.com slash Smart Agency. Yeah, and for the people that are scared to show their expertise, you shouldn't be running an agency. Speaker 1: Well, I mean, it's not the easiest pathway to choose for a human being. So you really don't want to do it without the knowledge to back it up. You're only going to make a hard job even harder. Speaker 2: I've chatted with a lot of people that are in that category. I'm like, good gosh, like I was looking for an agency the other day. To, you know, help us with stuff. And I literally had to stop. I'm like, look, the way you're selling is horrible. You're offering like, I can't do it. You got to just stop. And then I was like, show me the results. I couldn't show me the results. I'm like, Oh, like. Speaker 1: Yeah, that's like red flag after red flag after red flag. I mean, we at Producer Broadcast, we're extremely customer centric and really high touch customer service focus, but we have a retention of three to four years on average for our client retention, which in the agency world, as you know, is something to be proud of. It's huge, but it's because we do what we say we're going to do and then we do it and then we do it again. And a lot of times we do it without you even knowing that we're doing it for you, but we are because we really We take the relationship that we have with our clients very seriously and I think so many people... With agencies, especially in podcasting, we see a lot of scenarios where someone may have started a podcast on their own and then their friend said, oh, I want to start a podcast. And they were like, okay, well, I can help you with that. And that goes okay. And so then all of a sudden they decide that they're a podcast production agency. And it's just like, no, no, no. There's a very vast difference of knowledge and integrity and in systems that go into running a full service agency, no matter what the niche is. And so we really hyper focus on the customer service side, but we also focus on the business development side, which I think is a huge differentiator for us because broadcast quality production is really, really important. But to your point, there are a lot of tools out there that have really enhanced that option since we started. So the business development piece and the growth tool piece is becoming even more important. So it's really good to be able to deliver on both sides of that fence. Speaker 2: For the ones that have a podcast for a while and they feel like they've plateaued. What are some things that they could do in order to kind of really energize that show? Speaker 1: Yes, I love this question because it's probably not what you're expecting for me to answer. How I will answer it is probably not what you're expecting. If your show has plateaued, The very first thing that you need to do is dig into the discoverability foundational pieces. So when we do podcast audits, for example, yes, we're going to look at your format. We're going to look at your production value and this quality of production quality value. That's one piece of it. But we spend a third of the time that we Building these audits, we spend all of that time looking at how people are discovering your show, but not in the way that you might think. We are looking at it as if we wanted to find a podcast about agency masterminds. If I'm a person who's looking for an expert in building and scaling an agency, if I'm a person who's looking for the kind of content that you provide, I want to know how your podcast is showing up. That's the angle that we will take first. So we will look at how it's being discovered by people who are searching for the content because you're never going to grow your audience. You may sustain your audience, but you've got to grow it and put it in front of new people because they need to be able to find you. Certain strategic things like the way your show is named and how many characters in your show description down to what your podcast platform, how your podcast platform, the benefits. Are you utilizing all of them? Are they even there for you? And if they are, are you utilizing all of them? So, that discoverability piece and that metadata piece, that's very, very important if a show is stagnating. Because a lot of what we're finding right now in 2024 is there shows that launched during the pandemic when it was a bit of a frenzy and a free-for-all, but they overlooked the foundational growth pieces because they either didn't know them or they didn't work with an expert to help them set them up. And from the beginning in the right way. Speaker 2: We only posted to iTunes and you haven't posted it to iHeart or Spotify, right? Speaker 1: Well, I mean, we've had crazy examples like we've done an audit for a show and they weren't even showing up on Apple podcasts. And when we dug into it and we were like, why? They were like, Oh, well, when we started the show, we didn't know how to get approval on Apple. So we just never did it. And then we forgot. And that's, I'm not judging this person. I'm just saying it happens. Like it was a friend. I get to look like a genius in some of these scenarios when I do this audit presentation. And some of it's just crossing T's and dotting I's that you didn't even know were in the word in the first place. But that's really a core piece. And then there are other elements that once those foundational pieces are in place and you have a really secure confidence that those pieces, the barriers and friction you never even knew you were experiencing are broken and fixed for you. Then you look at your format. Then you look at, you know, you're always going to want to have good production value. And then you're going to want to look at like you can, there are things that you can do like surveying your audience to make sure that the content you started putting out may not be the content that people still want to consume right now. Now, or how you're putting it out. Maybe you were always doing long form, but because of the TikTok and the really big increase in short form distribution and the decrease in mental capacity for consuming content and the literal attention span has decreased as the consumption of shorts have increased. Have you matched that cadence? And are you using a strategy that brings a customer in through the short-form, converts to the long-form? What are you doing on your long-form to convert back to the short-form? All of these are things that you probably don't sit around thinking about as much as I do, but they're really, really important pieces of the puzzle. Speaker 2: I see things going in swings. It was long-form content, now it's short-form. And me and I was chatting with a number of different people, and we're tired of the short-form content. Literally, think about when we're watching TV, a commercial comes on, what do you do? Start swiping. And you're scrolling through Instagram or YouTube shorts. And literally an hour goes by and you're like, I feel so much dumber watching these stupid cat and dog videos or some idiot doing something. So I've literally put my phone in the other room so I don't even touch it. I don't even want to go through that just because I know it's a black hole of badness for me. And I see a lot of other people feeling this way. I almost think it's going to switch back and people are going to be like, screw this little short form content. Speaker 1: Yeah, I 100% agree. I do think that it's important right now in the dynamics of the way people are consuming content to be relevant and show up in those spaces. But you also do need to pay attention to how you personally consume content because what you're experiencing right now is probably, and because you're a visionary and you've been in this space for a really long time, the way that things are shifting for you are an indicator of the way that the trends are going to ultimately shift. You're just a person, I'm assuming a lot like me, that's always been a little bit ahead of the curve. So we see these trends in advance, but it does take time for the audience to catch up with them. So you do want to stay in that arena. However, I love what you're saying about the fact that like people are starting to really wake up to the mental taxing element of what short form content is doing. I personally, I remove TikTok and YouTube off of my iPad, which is what I typically at night if I'm wanting to, you know, watch Netflix or do anything that's as try as much as possible not to be work related. And what I found was I couldn't get away from my work because every other TikTok video was either one of my clients or somebody that I thought was doing something good or somebody I thought could do something better. And so for me, my brain was never shutting off. And with YouTube, it was prompting me based on a lot of the things that I had, research I had done during the day for clients, about clients or in the industry space. And so that's what it was. The algorithms were feeding me at night. And so I was just like, you know what? I'm going to go abstinence on these and I keep it on my phone, but I put my phone away, like you said, and I consume content on my iPad that's more personally relaxing for me. Documentaries, things that won't trigger my work brain or otherwise I can never rest. Speaker 2: I'm the same way. I just get so frustrated. I'm like, I just wasted so much time and it didn't better me. Speaker 1: And then I beat myself up because I think of all the things that are on my to-do list, and I really wasn't trying to work. I was actually trying to relax, but I ended up kind of, quote unquote, working anyway. And it wasn't productive because, well, I mean, it was productive in that I got some good insights to share with clients maybe the next day, but I don't want to watch my clients' TikToks at night. I just don't. Speaker 2: No, not at all. Well, this has been a lot of fun, Traci. Is there anything I didn't ask you that you think would benefit the listeners listening in? Speaker 1: You know, I think the one thing that we haven't really talked about, and I feel like it's such a myth buster and that we should talk about it, is what are the options of monetizing and really making money from your podcast, no matter what your audience size is? And that's not really a question. I guess that's a statement that I'm saying to you in terms of we get a lot of questions around, can I monetize my show before it launches? Can I monetize my show if I have less than a thousand downloads? Do I have to have 10,000 downloads to get Brands and sponsors to buy into my show. And so the only answer that's no to any of those that I just listed off is that you don't have to have 10,000 downloads per episodes for brands and sponsors to be interested in your show. And I really encourage people to think as they're developing their show, especially if it's a business focused show that you want to utilize. I really encourage you to think through what type of content you're putting out there and how and what kind of brands would want to be aligned with you and work with you and kind of a win-win. And I'm here to talk to you about the relationship between the host, the audience, and the brand because we have seen really successful monetization strategies pre-launch. We have seen really successful monetization strategies for people whose geographic target for their podcast is very limited due to like a legal podcast, for example, that is only licensed to a certain geographic area or a design business that's main customer base is in essentially in their backyard. Those limitations are myths and it's just really about how to I think through the strategy and implement the strategy so that you can grow your show, not only through the audience building aspects, but also through the monetization pieces. And that's a really big passion point for me right now. It just came from the large podcast conference that was held in Washington, DC. The big brands are absolutely showing up in the space and that's great. That's really great. But the 10,000 downloads per episode are fantastic for a cost per thousand dynamic ad insertion. But what about the podcasts that are 9,999 or less? There are a lot of possibilities there, and I just encourage people to not give up before the miracle happens. Speaker 2: Yeah, and for everyone that listens to this show, obviously, they're service-based business. Yes, you can monetize a lot earlier on, but the more deposits you make, the more compounding interest before you're actually... Because the person that can show up for Three years and not expect anything is going to kick the shit out of someone that is trying to figure out, well, how do I get a sponsor in three months just to produce it? I'm like, no dummy, literally keep investing. And I promise you one day, like I remember I had Jamie Tardy on the podcast many, many years ago. And I remember her telling me, she was like, I did the podcast for 12 months and I was about to quit on month 13 and it hit 12 months, 0.5 or something like that. And then it just started taking off. And it's just like, you never know when it's going to hit. And you don't really know kind of where the business is coming. You just have to kind of have a little faith and have fun with it. Just make it conversational or make it fit your personality. And you can just crush it. Like I promise you, doing a podcast will be the best thing you've ever done for your business if you stick with it because there's so many quitters out there. I've read some stat like 1% of people only uploaded one show. 1% of that or something is like 10 shows. Speaker 1: Right. But here's another crazy stat to keep you incentivized to do exactly what you're saying to keep going is Seventy-three percent of people who listen to a podcast will take action on something that the host or that they hear about within the show. So, if you are a service-based business and you're not doing a podcast and promoting your own products and services in a very intelligent and very authentic way, then you're really missing out on the possibility of having that high level of conversions. And most importantly, you know, really piggybacking on what you were saying, most importantly, Don't stop down and disrupt your content just to monetize your show. Be very strategic about how you bring brands into your content because your audience is smart and they are going to reject it. And so there are some really good quality ways to bring brands and products and services into your show that are value to your audience without disrupting your content and having a heavy ad load. Like, you know, broadcast radio literally killed itself because of heavy ad load. And now we're listening to these shows that are meeting this criteria, but their ad load is so heavy that it's really distracting from the content of their shows, even if their celebrity icon So it's such a delicate balance, but you just have to focus on always what's in it for your audience. And then if you do that, it comes back to you tenfold. But I love that story about, you know, she waited 12 and a half months. What if she had given up at 12? And that is literally not giving up before the miracle happens. And I'm so excited to hear that. Speaker 2: I always tell everybody, I'm like, look, we make $18,000 from sponsors a month. That's not even close to the revenue that we produce from all the other things that are getting people to our program or our mastermind or our events, that kind of stuff. Don't think small. Yes, it's great and that comes, but don't force it in. Speaker 1: The average cost per thousand for a live host read is between $23 and $25. Is it really worth it to stop down your content for $23 or $25 when you're selling a high ticket item that could be $30,000 or more? Don't cut your nose off to spite your face. But that patience and that fortitude and that tenacity, I don't think people talk about it enough. So I'm really grateful that you're highlighting it because that is an incredibly important takeaway. For people to understand is that it's not a sprint. It is a marathon. You really want to go into it as important as how you would build your website, all of your other marketing strategies. It doesn't need to be siloed off in some one-off, I'm going to get my nephew to do it kind of thing because you really want it to be on brand with everything else that it is that you're doing, including the types of ads that you accept or don't accept into your show. Speaker 2: Yep. Awesome. Well, thanks so much, Traci, for coming on the show. For everyone that enjoyed the show, make sure you like, subscribe, share it out. And until next time.