Unlock the Power of Amazon DSP: Advanced Ad Strategies with Sam Lee

Unlock the Power of Amazon DSP: Advanced Ad Strategies with Sam Lee Speaker 1: Okay, so sub-100 reviews don't touch it, ever. If you have a product, let's say, that has 2,000 reviews and you're launching a new one that has 200, we can target people that have bought that and serve them your new product because they're not going to be review-intensive. That's fine. But if your premier product is sub-100 reviews, Do not touch DSP. There's no reason to. It's absolutely not worth your time. Unknown Speaker: Welcome, fellow entrepreneurs, to the Amazon Seller School podcast, where we talk about Amazon and how you can use it to build an e-commerce empire, a side hustle, and anything in between. And now, your host, Todd Welch. Speaker 2: What's going on everybody? Welcome to another episode. We've got Sam Lee on today. He's the vice president of Amazon DSP over at Trivium Group where he's been for three years, but he's been doing Amazon DSP for over five years and has managed hundreds of millions of dollars worth of ads for A lot of large brands out there, so today we're going to be diving into what Amazon DSP ads are and why you should be doing it, who should be doing it. All of that great stuff. So this is gonna be a really good one. I'm gonna enjoy this one as well because I'm gonna be learning right along with everybody. I am far from an expert on DSP. So Sam, I really appreciate you joining the show. Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I would say that Amazon DSP, it's one of the definitely the less understood components of the whole Amazon ecosystem, right? I've been doing it for years and in reality, I build my business on helping agencies sell Amazon DSP, which agencies are supposed to know like both PPC and DSP and they're supposed to know everything, but they really, even agencies don't know Amazon DSP as well as they should. So it's definitely a mystery still within the Amazon ecosystem. Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. So why don't we start off just by telling everybody exactly what is Amazon DSP? Speaker 1: Demand side platform. So there's actually in classic Amazon fashion, there's two Amazon DSPs. Amazon Delivery Service Provider. So I get messages maybe two, three times a week about people that are looking to get into, it's essentially Uber for Amazon. That's a delivery service provider. Demand-side platform is Amazon DSP. That's what we're going to talk about. And it's programmatic advertising. So it's audience-based display advertising, video advertising, but it's very different from Amazon's delivery service provider offering, but they're both DSPs. Speaker 2: I've ran into the same problem when talking with people about AWD. You know, because obviously when people say AWD, most people think of all-wheel drive vehicle. So they're like, what are you talking about? Speaker 1: Essentially, yeah, it's the same thing, but Amazon should really differentiate if they knew what they were doing, but they don't care. Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. So when you say display advertising and video advertising and such, that's on like TV and other platforms like that. We're not talking about similar ads to like product display ads and things like that. Speaker 1: No, we are. Actually, we're talking very similar to product display ads. So, okay. Sponsored display within the PPC platform is, I would call it like DSP Junior. So you can place display ads via sponsored display, via PPC, and that's more or less the same thing, but once you start spending more, you have a lot more control if you actually utilize Amazon DSP. So the way that I usually like to use it is we start on Amazon and we create audiences based on how people browse, how they purchase, whatever it is on Amazon, and then we can expand to off Amazon. But if you've run Amazon PPC ads in your familiar response or display, it's basically the same thing, except Amazon DSP is just a little bit more comprehensive. So, once you've scaled your PPC spend enough, then from sponsor display to Amazon DSP, that's the pipeline that makes the most sense. Speaker 2: Okay. So, after you maximize what you can do inside- If you're not spending at least 15 to 20K on PPC, then DSP is not for you. Speaker 1: Once you hit that borderline and as long as you have over 100 reviews, then maybe DSP is for you. But you have to hit that point. Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's not available for just everyone, right? Not everyone can log into Seller Central and look at Amazon DSP. Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the other annoying part of it, is you either have to go with a tech partner who charges a percentage of that, typically a percentage of ad spend, or you have to, like usually it's like a hundred K It's a moving target. Anywhere from $50 to $100K a month to get your own seat. So you have to work with an agency or a tech partner if you want to access Amazon DSP. Speaker 2: Okay. You said $1,500? To get access to... Speaker 1: 50 to 100K. Speaker 2: 50 to 100K. Okay. Speaker 1: Yeah. The reason I can't give you an actual number is because it's not consistent. Like if you email Amazon, whoever it is, support at amazon.com and say, I want a DSPC, it's going to be a different answer every time. But I would say 50 to 100,000 a month. Speaker 2: Okay. Got it. And so that is something that Trivium is paying to Amazon just to have access to create Amazon DSP ads. Speaker 1: Well, the difference is that because we work across a number of brands, we hit that minimum. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: Any of our brands are spending $50,000 a month, maybe one. Speaker 2: Gotcha, gotcha. Okay, so it's not like a fee. It's just a minimum that you have to hit to be able to do that. Speaker 1: If you want to get your own seat, you have to spend $50,000 a month. And then across all of our clients, like let's say we have $5,000 a month across 10 clients, we hit $50,000 a month. So we have our own seat. Unless you want to really commit that large amount of money out of the gate, which I don't recommend, then it makes more sense to work with a partner. If you grow that to the point where it's like, okay, we're already spending $50,000 a month and it's profitable, then you could probably get your own seat. But before then, it's in aggregate due to the fact that we're an agency, our clients add up to over $50,000 a month. So that's why we have our own seat. Speaker 2: You're going to probably want to be working with a professional anyways, whether it's working with an agency like you guys or hiring someone to manage that. Speaker 1: I would just say that the main problem with Amazon DSP is that due to the fact that there's this misconception about minimum ad spend, so many brands don't try it. It's like if you have to commit $50,000 a month, That's a big commitment. If I owned a brand, which I actually do, I would never go for that because it's a big bet at the end of the day. If you lose, you lose $50,000. I would never do that. That being said, a $5,000 bet, seeing if DSP works for you, seeing if it increases your top line, that makes sense. Working with an agency at least to start and then if it works and you scale 5 to 10 to 20 to 30 and then you are comfortable spending $50,000 a month and you can get your own seat, then by all means do it. But you should test it out at $5,000 a month before you... I'm just sick of seeing brands lose money. Like a $5,000 bet in reality is not that much. A $50,000 like bet just to test out DSP, that's... That's a lot of money, man. I would never make that bet. I don't care what the platform is. Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. Unless you're a giant like Coca-Cola or something that $50,000, that's nothing. Speaker 1: Unilever and their one KPI was, did we spend all the money? It's like, yeah. You don't want to hear about performance now? Okay. All right. Speaker 2: That's got to be kind of a fun kind of client to deal with. Speaker 1: Not for me, but for most people, yeah, because it's an easy client, but they didn't want to hear about results. I'm a bottom-line guy. I prefer when my clients increase their actual profit. I hate it with them, honestly. Speaker 2: What are the actual differences that people would see that would tempt them to try Amazon DSP versus just spending more money on Amazon Ad Console? Speaker 1: It's usually when you start to see any form of downturn in bottom line profits. What I mean by that is like you spent 10K on PPC ads. And you made bottom line, let's say, 3K. You spend $15 and you still made $3K. Typically, what I recommend to brands is scale PPC as high as you can. The way that I look at it is basically put every dollar you can into PPC until you start to see some sort of diminishing return. If I can put a dollar into PPC and I get $2 out, I'm going to do that forever. It's an infinite money machine. Eventually, you're going to hit a point where you put in a dollar and you get out 50 cents. Once you do that, that's when you launch DSP. Scale PPC as high as you possibly can. Let's say it's $20,000, $30,000, but there's always going to be a point where as soon as you put in another dollar into PPC, you're not going to get $2 out. There's always going to be like, there's this point whether it's based on the query, whatever it is. You're eventually not going to get out as much as you put in. That's when you launch DSP. And then when you launch DSP, your conversion rates just generally rise. Your PPC conversion rates rise. And it's just ride the PPC train until you hit 20, 30K a month. And then you start to see a point where you don't make as much money. And then at that point you launch DSP, both things raise, and that's when you're ready. If you can put in a hundred bucks to PPC and you get out 200 bucks, do that every time. But there's gonna be a point where you put in a hundred bucks and you get out 50. That's when you launch DSP. Speaker 2: And the reason it's able to go The reason we're farther than the ad console is because of the advanced targeting, correct? Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, just because like sponsor display, like you can do retargeting, you can do a lot of these things, but it's far less customizable in the sense of how many days do we look back? Can we negate purchases? If you're going to spend $1,000, $2,000, $3,000 a month, just do it through sponsor display. As soon as you hit the $5,000 a month mark, DSP makes way more sense. There's just more control. Speaker 2: What do those look like, the specifics that you can target? Speaker 1: So I would say that's a big piece of it, right, is retargeting is only really retargeting if you can negate people that already bought. The attribution is a lot better, I would say, because the main question, right, like between sponsor display and between DSP is that If it's a view through attribution, how many of these are real? Like if they didn't click, like how do I know that this person actually was introduced to my product via this ad and then bought via the ad they were served? That's the main issue, right? So one way that we can do that on DSP that Sponsor Display doesn't have access to is A, you negate purchases, right? Like within Sponsor Display, you can't do that. Ultimately, somebody buys your product and you're still serving them ads for 7-14 days after they bought the product, which is a huge waste of money. A lot of the times, people use AMC for targeting reasons, right? Which is, this person added to cart and only gate purchases and I'll serve them ads. I usually use AMC actually for negation. Like if this person already viewed my product and they added it to cart and they didn't buy it, I'm not going to serve them ads because they ultimately, probably a good reason they didn't buy the product. They bought something else. I know that these sound like trivial, like minor things, but at the end of the day, when you're doing this in scale, it's not. I don't know. Most people use AMC for abandoned car audiences. I use them for negation. And I use them for basically just finding audiences that if they've been exposed to my product, they haven't already made a decision to not buy it. Because if they've made that decision, they bought something else. It's a waste of an impression, in my opinion. I'd rather serve an impression to somebody who's never seen my product before versus somebody that has adequately made a decision they didn't want to buy it. Speaker 2: By AMC, are you talking about brand-tailored promotions? Speaker 1: Amazon Marketing Cloud. Speaker 2: Amazon Marketing Cloud, okay. So what is Amazon Marketing Cloud? Speaker 1: So Amazon Marketing Cloud is a data aggregation system that Amazon put out a couple years ago. Typically, you only could access it if you already used Amazon DSP. Recently, they rolled it out to make it more, I guess, accessible to the masses. Amazon Marketing Cloud is essentially, originally you had to know how to run Python scripts in order to use it. Now they've made it more accessible. So Amazon Marketing Cloud, basically, if you're running Amazon PPC and Amazon DSP, they live in two totally different ecosystems. Amazon Marketing Cloud, the immersion token, which is an identifying token that utilizes your seller central account, it can pull the data together. So like, how many people are Looking at a DSP ad and then clicking a PPC ad and then buying. You don't really have access to that data due to the fact that Amazon DSP lives completely outside of Amazon PPC, Seller Central. How you combine the data and tell me what is my DSP ad exposure doing to my PPC conversion rate? You don't really have an answer to that question. Amazon Marketing Cloud is how you answer that question. Speaker 2: Okay. Speaker 1: My conversion rate based on just a PPC ad is let's say 10% versus somebody that saw a DSP ad and then clicked a sponsored product ad, it's 40%. So that tells me that the upper funnel awareness tactics that I'm using on DSP are actually impacting my PPC conversion rate. And how else do you know that? Like you're just guessing. So Amazon Marketing Cloud AMC is how you actually understand this information. It puts everything together for you so you can honestly just put your ad dollars in the right place. That's the whole point. And you could only access AMC through Amazon DSP, demand-side platform. Amazon has so many goddamn acronyms. I know. But you only used to be able to access it through Amazon DSP. Like if you had a DSPC, you could get Amazon AMC access and then you could see it. Amazon has very recently allowed AMC access through Seller Central. So now, even if you're not running Amazon DSP, you can get access to Amazon Marketing Cloud and you don't have to And we're here to help you understand SQL queries, because I sure don't, to use it. And that was originally the, I would say the big barrier was I didn't know how to write SQL queries. And that was the only way to use it on AMC. And now you can use it without it. Speaker 2: Okay. Very interesting. And now it has a visual user interface that you can access and see the data. Even if you're not using DSP, Amazon ads that you're running sponsor product and all that. Speaker 1: Yes that they just came out with that like I would say two months ago. Speaker 2: Okay, very nice. I will have to Let's dig into that and check it out, see what kind of data. Speaker 1: I think so many people, they are really excited about AMC and they pull the data and they don't make any changes based on that data. So it's only use it if you're actually going to use it is my best piece of advice. Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes you can get information overload and if you don't have the ability to parse that data and actually use it. Speaker 1: It's like, okay, here's my lifetime customer value. Here's my customers live. Here's how much they buy. It's like, this is so fun, but if you don't make any changes based on that, then it's worthless data. So use it, but only if you're going to use it. Otherwise, you're just wasting your fucking time. That's my take. Speaker 2: Hey, Amazon sellers. Tired of losing money on storage and shipping fees? Well, Amazon Storage Pros is here to take the headache out of logistics. We manage everything from inventory and creating efficient shipping plans to working with 3PLs and Amazon's AWD so that you can focus on growing your business. Start with a free storage cost audit and discover exactly where you're overspending and how to fix it. Don't let logistics eat into your profits. Visit AmazonStoragePros.com. That's AmazonStoragePros.com to get your free storage cost audit and start saving today. And now, back to the show. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. Kind of good advice for anything. Only learn what you have to learn. Speaker 1: DSP, AMC, there's so much fun data in there, right? But you have to act on it. Or it's just fun data and you're wasting your time and you're like, okay, here's where the majority of my customers live in California. Great. And then you do nothing based on that. Why did you learn that? No reason. If you adjust bids based on the fact that your conversion rate's higher in California, so you're bidding more in California, you used AMC data correctly. Congrats, fantastic. But it's just, don't waste your time. Speaker 2: You can do that type of targeting in DSP, right? Target people by state, and can you do city and township? Get that in there. Speaker 1: The same as Google Ads. You can go by zip code. You can do whatever you want. I used to run DSP ads for LA Metro and we had to just target LA County and it was. You know, it was display ads within this area. It's just it's there's so many options available and there's so much data available. It's just don't waste your time pulling all this data that you're not going to make changes based on that data. Like I can pull a state by state analysis for you based on conversion rate. I'm happy to. But if you don't want to adjust budget based on whatever states are converting, then what are we doing here? Like, You got to make changes based on the data that you pull or you're wasting your time. Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, I'm thinking about, you know, I like to fish, right? I could see a fishing company readily using that state-by-state data because certain baits are going to be used more or less in certain states so you can really target those areas. Speaker 1: 100%. The thing is you can use this data. It's very usable. It's just you have to use it. There's no sense in pulling it. I can tell you which fish are predominantly caught in which state and what type of bait those fish like. You can use that to use that bait within those states to catch those fish or you can just say that's a neat bag and you can just continue with whatever you're doing. It's like I'm going to not love the fact that I pulled that data for you if you're not going to use that bait within those states to catch those fish. It's like the data is so valuable. It's just so many people like the data, but they don't use the data. Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Speaker 1: They're pulling data for people that is usable that they don't use. Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think a lot of times people have good intentions, but it takes work to use that data, and you actually have to initiate it, so. Speaker 1: It's just, I'm happy to pull that data, but let's use this data, right? We might as well. Here's the example of how we can use this data. Let's do it. Otherwise, it's just data. And that's what AMP is. That's what Amazon Marketing Cloud is. I would say 60 to 70% of people pull the data, they love it, they're so interested in it, and they make no changes. Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. I can imagine. Speaker 1: It's a tool. It's not an end-all, be-all. It's a tool. So you pull the data. There's a lot you can do with this data, but you have to do it. And if you don't, then we might as well not pull the data. That's my whole take. Speaker 2: Now the data in Amazon Marketing Cloud, is that solely data related to your ad spend or is that overall all of Seller Central and Amazon.com platforms and everything? Speaker 1: Pretty much everything, dude. Like they can really aggregate everything. Like DSP impressions, PPC clicks, organic, like based on brand searches, like they can really, it all depends on how you use it again. Through TechPartners, it's a very usable tool, right? So like I use XMARS currently, I used to use PackView, and even a dummy like me can use AMC. But without a TechPartner, you have to be able to run SQL queries to understand like how to pull the data. Amazon Marketing Cloud in and of itself is a developer-driven We're a query-driven platform, but through tech partners, you can make it easy. You can make it done for people like me. So it works out overall, but it's not super easy. And even when you work through a tech partner, you have to kind of know what you're looking for, I would say. So like, AMC is a very powerful tool, but You really, you need to want it and you need to know how to use it before you even tap into it. Because you can get access to it, you can just do nothing. And that's, I would say, what most people do. Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. Information overload and then just lack of action. Speaker 1: Too much going on and then you just don't do anything. I've been there a million times. I can do 500 things in this and I choose to do nothing. So it's like don't bother unless you really want to dive in and figure out how to utilize AMC for your company's best interest. Don't touch it until you're ready. Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. Okay, very good. So we kind of touched on who should use DSP. Typically, once you reach that point where your increased ad spend is just not showing results anymore, Is there any other things that you look at for who should not use it or who should use it? Speaker 1: 100 reviews. 100%. If you don't have at least one product with 100 reviews, do not touch it. I would say scale PPC spend to at least 10, 20k. I usually like to operate DSP at around 25 to 30% of PPC spend. And I don't like to launch DSP until they can afford at least $5,000 a month. So by some simple math, that tells me 25 to 30K a month in PPC spend. Before that point, just scale PPC. Easy, once you're at 30K, if you feel like you could spend another 5K on PPC and get out, Bottom line, another $3K. Scale it till you're losing money. Why not? If you could spend another $3K and your bottom line adds another $2K, do it. As soon as you don't think you could add another $5K to your budget and you're going to get more on the bottom not the top, Launch DSP. It's usually around the 20 to 30k a month and PPC mark. We start at five, see how it does, see how your overall top line, bottom line does, scale to 10 and we go from there. At the end of the day, like if you're putting money into something and your bottom line is continuously growing, do that until it stops. If I'm pulling a slot machine and I'm making money every time I put a dollar in, I'm going to do it until I stop making money. That's just how it works. But at a certain point, when you're investing additional money into PPC, there's going to be a point when your bottom line hurts. Top line might not, but there's going to be a point, right? Whether it's 50K, whether it's 100K, whether it's $6 million a month, there's going to be a point where that incremental money that you're putting into the PPC is not going to make you more money. It's just the truth. Otherwise, it's an infinite money machine and everyone put in $6 million and they make $12 million. There's a point where the accrued revenue tailors off. That's when you launch DSP. And for most brands, I would say it's somewhere around the 20 to 30K mark a month on PPC. Some brands lower, some brands higher, whatever. But as soon as you start to see that you're putting in a dollar and you're only getting out on your bottom line 75 cents and you've invested everything you can into PPC, that's when you launch DSP. That's where I come in. We retarget. Depending on your overall customer lifetime value, let's say it's a CPG brand, we can do product purchase, remarketing, cross-selling. There's a lot of shit we can do. If you're putting a dollar in and getting $2 out, do that until you stop getting $2 out. There's no reason to not. As soon as you stop making additional incremental revenue, That's where I come in and we help you on both sides. Speaker 2: Is there anyone that should not use DSP regardless? Speaker 1: Above 100 reviews. Don't do it. Speaker 2: Okay, so that's pretty much the main metric, the reviews and the ad spend. Speaker 1: I will say that, okay, so sub-100 reviews don't touch it ever. If you have a product, let's say, that has 2,000 reviews and you're launching a new one that has 200, we can target people that have bought that and serve them your new product because they're not going to be review-sensitive. That's fine. But if your premier product is sub-100 reviews, do not touch DSP. There's no reason to. It's absolutely not worth your time. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: Okay. They don't have a product over 100 reviews. And even a hundred is low. Like we want a thousand is ideal, but 500 is... That's when we know that we're going to do well. So that it's low, man. I've turned a lot of brands away that are excited about it, but they should scale PPC more and they should scale their reviews more first, every time. Speaker 2: Okay, so what other kind of cool targeting Is there that we haven't talked about? Speaker 1: Well, what I will say is that like I've audited a bunch of DSP accounts over the years, right? And the most like the classic way to use DSP is retargeting. Easy enough. Like you viewed it in the last 14, 30 days. You didn't buy. Easy. Purchase within the category, whatever, and they use a lot of in-market and lifestyle audiences, which I don't touch, ever. Like very, very few occasions, like if a brand's spending 100, 200K a month, I'll use Amazon's pre-created audiences, sure, because you need to scale spend and those are big audiences. But outside of that, I don't touch those because you can make them yourself. Like, you give me a list of brands that you compete with, brands that are similar to you. Give me a list of those ASINs. I will create an audience based on views and purchases, and we can manage it ourselves. Versus Amazon has an in-market audience for protein. They don't tell you what goes into that. So I use 99.9% pre, like custom-curated audiences. That's number one. I would say the number two is I think people sleep on contextual targeting, which Amazon's continuously rolling out new ways to contextually target potential customers. And what I mean by that is It's not always necessarily what have you bought and what have you purchased in the past custom look back 14, 30, 90 days. What are you looking at now, right? So like I can say this guy looked at my product or he looked at my competitor's product in the last 30 days. So I can say with some relative certainty that he, like let's use protein powder as an example. I can say with some relative certainty that he probably works out. So I will serve him an ad for 90 days or 30 days or whatever it is after him looking at this product because I think he's in my market or. I can serve him an ad in real time when he's browsing fitness related things. Sorry, I'm going to go full tinfoil ad here but just bear with me. I'm a fitness guy. I work out every day but if I'm looking at presents for my mom or dad for Christmas, I'm not super interested in protein at that time. I'm looking at weird little knickknacks from my dad and if I get an ad for protein, I don't give a fuck about that. I'm not going to be like, oh wow, actually that protein looks great. I'm going to click on that. Like if they know who I am, but it's like browsing behavior, in my opinion, is so relative that I need to know what this person is browsing now. And that's why I'm such a firm believer in contextual targeting within the DSP. And what that means is They take the product that you're serving and they will serve you an ad contextually based on what you're looking at right now. Right. So like let's say my client sells amino acids. Right. And I have another person that's browsing protein. The amino acid will show up on the protein page. And if I'm browsing supplements, that matters to me. Even if I haven't looked at that product, that matters to me because I am looking at shit that's gonna make me healthier, make me look better. So an amino acid product is gonna be really relevant to me at this point versus I could have looked at that exact amino acid two weeks ago and I could be browsing a knick-knack page for my dad. I don't give a fuck about that. Thing at that time, right? So like that's why to me contextual targeting so important is I have to like argue with clients sometimes because they're like I want to show I want to show my product to anyone that's looked at in the past 30 days. I'm like no you should show them when they're browsing your category. Like you might sell protein and I'm gonna show it to them when they're browsing amino acids. I don't want to show it to them when they're browsing fucking, I don't know, rings for their mom or like, I don't know, like knickknacks for their dad. Like whatever it is, it's just, it's not on their mind. So they're not going to click on it. So like, that's where most people fuck up, frankly. Speaker 2: Annoying more than anything. Speaker 1: And I'll get off my soapbox, but like, that's, that's generally my take is that People spend way too much time worrying about who and not when. I buy a lot of weird shit from my dad, but if I'm shopping protein, I'm not worried about that. Like it would take a hell of a product to like get me off of the Thought train that I'm currently on and get me on to this one. So let's hit them when they're thinking about what we're doing. Let's do that. Speaker 2: Yeah, you know that makes me think of a story I read about advanced targeting that Target uses for its customers. And the story was about a dad who had a younger daughter. I think she was maybe 16, 17, 18, something like that. All of a sudden, she got a magazine from Target in the mail trying to sell her baby stuff like diapers and supplements and formula and all that stuff. He went to Target and got all mad about it and come to find out, The daughter didn't even know, supposedly, that she was pregnant, but she was pregnant and Target knew it before anyone else knew it. Speaker 1: That's actually crazy. I've been such a tinfoil hat guy about I say something and then I see that shit in an ad, but in reality, it's coming from somebody that's run ads for such a long time. It's not only the products you're shopping, but who are the people around you looking at and what are the products related to those things and that's why you get ads. I buy all my supplements and whatever as the douchebag I am on Amazon, right? And that's why I get ads on Facebook for fitness stuff. It's just, that's the truth. Or like, let's say one person knows they're pregnant and the other person does not. There's like, there's a lot of HIPAA violations with that. So like, I do have questions about the specifics with this because I've run a I've run ads for a lot of companies that have a lot of issues with that type of shit, so this is all questionable, but high level, you might be looking up gifts that fit within one category for somebody else. Right. So you're going to get ads that fit within that category. You text that person a lot. They're going to get like, it's just, it's this weird interconnected web. I personally have no problems with it just due to the fact that if I'm going to get ads, which I am, I might as well get ads that I give a fuck about that are interesting to me. I'm interested in that. I'm going to get ads for clothing. I might as well see clothing I like. That's how I feel. But a lot of people feel very violated by this concept and I understand why they feel that way. And I do think there's some degree of I'm listening, probably. I've seen shit that I cannot explain. And all my friends come to me and ask me, because they're like, you're in digital advertising. Are they listening to us? I'm like, I don't think so, man, but I don't know for sure. I seem sometimes like they are. Speaker 2: Well, they don't necessarily have to listen when they aggregate all the information together. Because, for example, let's say me and you go get a coffee. And then I go home and start looking something up. They can see that my GPS data was next to yours. Speaker 1: That's exactly my other point, dude. You're spot on. Like my other point is like, we don't have to like, I know you said something and then it seems like you popped up like with an ad that's way too similar. But that being said, they're tracking what we look up, what we browse. So like we talked about coffee. We typed in a coffee place on Safari, on Google Maps, and then we went to a coffee place. It doesn't mean they're listening to us necessarily. It doesn't mean they're tracking us in some capacity, but it doesn't mean they're listening to everything we say. So you're spot on with that. That's usually what I tell my friends where I'm like, you don't have to worry about what you say, but anything you put in your phone, you got to understand some capacity is going to be tracked. And I've, I've honestly adapted to the fact that that's okay. And that I'm going to get a bunch of ads. So I might as well get ads for shit. Like that's, that's how I feel. Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. We're getting a little bit off topic, but I seen another story. Do you remember four square? The app. So they have basically turned into like a GPS tracking data company is how they make their money. And he was talking to a news reporter, and he pulled up on his tablet the data that he had access to, and you could see little dots moving around on the tablet. And he's like, see that dot there? It's coming over to the door, and that's that guy that's coming into the shop right now. It just has a number, you know, so they don't know the person per se, but he can real-time see the people walking around with their phones in their pocket. Speaker 1: I understand both sides, honestly. I'm on the advertising side of things, so I like to serve ads to people that might be interested in the products that my clients sell. That's my main point of interest, but I also understand as a private citizen that people are worried about their data and people knowing too much about them, me knowing too much about them, frankly. It's an interesting topic at Thanksgiving dinner. I will tell you that. Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's really about who has access to that real-time data and how they can use it. For example, I'm someone who's stalking someone and I have access to that real-time data and I figure out whose number is who by sitting at your favorite coffee shop and Now I can track you around everywhere. Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a problem. Yeah, and it's like it's just from my perspective as an advertiser I'm like I know more about you so I can serve you ads that are gonna be more interesting to you versus some bullshit that you don't want to see. And if you don't want to buy it, that's okay. But you might as well see ads that are relevant to you in my opinion. But as a consumer, I understand how that sort of information is just private, right? And like people could use it in the wrong ways potentially. So it's weird being an advertiser and like truly seeing both sides of this thing. Like I really do. So it's pretty bizarre. Speaker 2: For sure. Yeah, yeah, we could go down that rabbit hole for a long time so we can reel it back in. Is there any last things about Amazon DSP? One thing that I just thought of, you mentioned that DSP is something that can be used by non-Amazon companies as well to market their product. Speaker 1: So I've run Amazon DSP for brands that not only are non-Amazon, but they're not even e-commerce. And essentially, like, programmatic advertising is audience-based, right? And it's browsing behavior-based. It's what you do on the internet in whatever capacity, right? So there's like Trade Desk, which is the And I'll be all programmatic advertising platforms. And if you go to, I forget the website exactly, but it's pretty funny. There's a website you can go to that'll tell you what categories you're posted in for programmatic advertising platforms. Are you married? What state do you live in? What are you interested in? And when you look those things up, they're all fucking wrong. I looked it up. It told me I was married with three kids and all these things and that's what these programmatic advertising platforms use to target me with ads. Amazon is different due to the fact that it's first-party data and you're using your browsing and viewing behavior. Amazon has really no way to be wrong about me because the shit I'm buying tells you a lot about me. Like, if I'm buying a lot of proteins and amino acids, I care about fitness. If I'm buying a lot of, you know, accessories for a particular video game console, I own that video game console, right? Versus your browsing behavior and like what you look up on Safari might be misleading because you're, you know, you're curious so you look up like, what year was the PlayStation 5 invented? You might look that up even if you don't have a PlayStation 5, but if you're looking up PlayStation, I don't actually, I don't know. So I'm making this shit up, but PlayStation 5 covers whatever it is. You can say with some relative certainty that I own one because why else would I looked it up on Amazon versus Googling out of curiosity, right? So that's why Amazon's data in my opinion is so valuable. Now, We're a company, let's say, that doesn't sell on Amazon where, let's use Beachbody, right? They sell video content to people that are interested in fitness, but they don't actually sell products. They can go to TradeDesk and say, hey, what people are Googling sit-up routines, like whatever it is. They go to Amazon and they see what people are buying protein powder, what people are buying amino acids, what people are buying like all these products that actually sell this related. It to me tells me a much broader story of why they're act like it just says more when someone buys something than when they search something, right? Like you can search something for a hundred reasons. If you're viewing and buying things on Amazon, that tells me with some degree of certainty that you are really invested in this thing. So that's why a company like Beachbody can use Amazon DSP to tap into in-market audiences for protein, in-market audiences for amino acids. Whatever it is and they can serve their display and video ads for people that are logged into that mobile device on You know, they're logged on their phone or their computer or their TV. They can show them display and video ads Because they know this person is actually like buying fitness related products on Amazon. So that it's just to me. It's it's more direct, right? Like a lot of people are going to look up, how do I get a six-pack abs? You can serve those people ads all day. But if you look, if you buy protein on Amazon, you're probably a little more committed Those are the better people to serve ads to. I get off my soapbox, but that's generally why I feel it's such a valuable tool regardless of if you're an e-commerce company or not. Speaker 2: I agree with you on that because anyone can search how to get fit, how to get in shape. Speaker 1: And are they going to buy your service? Not necessarily, but if you're buying protein, you're kind of committed. Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. You're at least in the mode of spending money to try to give. Whether you will or not, that's another story, but you might drop a hundred bucks on Beachbody. Speaker 1: You're willing at least, you're at least semi-committed. That's like all we need. It's just the bucket of people that are interested in being hot is 10 million. The amount of people that are willing to invest a little bit of money is one million. So it's like, let's target them versus them. Speaker 2: Yes, yes. And we're going into that buying spree here coming soon. Speaker 1: January is probably the busiest month of the year for me because we have so many health fitness clients. It's great, but it's definitely the busiest month of the year. Speaker 2: Yeah, I can imagine for sure. All right, Sam. Well, this has been a lot of fun. If people want to connect with you and reach out to you, how can they do that? Speaker 1: So they can look up Sam Lee on LinkedIn, but there are a lot of Sam Lees on this planet. I've seen that a million times. A lot of them are in different countries in Asia. I'm not. The best way would be sam.l at TriviumCo.com is my email. If you look up Sam Lee on LinkedIn and you scroll through the pages, you'll eventually find me, but it's a little bit difficult, but you'll find me. Speaker 2: Very good. I'm just searching, let's see, Sam Lee Trivium. Speaker 1: If you look up Sam Lee Trivium, you're fine. That's a good way. Yeah. Speaker 2: Search for Sam Lee Trivium and you're the first person that shows up. So there we go. Speaker 1: Sam Lee Trivium. Speaker 2: Awesome. Speaker 1: That's a good way to do it. Speaker 2: Sam, well, I appreciate the time. This has been fun. Speaker 1: Likewise, brother. Thank you. Speaker 2: You have a great one. Unknown Speaker: This has been another episode of the Amazon Seller School podcast. Thanks for listening fellow Amazon seller and always remember success is yours if you take it. Speaker 2: Hey, if you made it this far in the show, I really hope you enjoyed it and I'd like to ask you a favor. Could you head on over to Apple or Spotify or wherever you're listening to this and leave us a review? It would be greatly appreciated and would help us continue to grow the show and offer more episodes for you. Thank you. God bless and have an awesome day.