Turn Wasted Ad Dollars into Predictable Growth & Profit

Turn Wasted Ad Dollars into Predictable Growth & Profit Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode of Chew on This. Today's a special episode brought to you by Lifesight where they turn wasted ad dollars into predictable growth and profit and we actually have the co-founder here Rohit who's gonna be breaking down not only what he's been able to learn while building Lifesight but why you should be considering Lifesight and where it actually fits into your brand. Rohit, give the few people who may not know your background, may not know what you've been building for almost eight years now, give them a little bit of background. What is Lifesight? Who are you? And thank you so much for joining our show. Speaker 2: Thanks guys. Thank you so much for having me. It's awesome to be here. Yeah, so I'm Rohit. I'm one of the co-founders here at Lifesight. Pretty much been a serial entrepreneur all my life building solutions around, you know, various apps and, you know, mobile apps and stuff like that. Lifesight is a unified marketing measurement platform. Essentially, our mission has always been to help brands essentially get a better view of, you know, marketing's impact on business KPIs, right? So they can essentially then use that to make better decisions, right? And it's in our brand name, it's in our DNA. And we started off as an MTA platform, multi-touch attribution platform. And more recently, over the past two and a half years, we've been a part of this new breed of measurement platforms, essentially called unified measurement platforms, which uses a different way of measuring, which is essentially marketing mixed modeling and geo-experimentation instead of MTA, right? So it's known as a incrementality measurement system, also known as a causal based measurement system. So that's what I've been busy with here. Speaker 3: What if I said you're wasting nearly 30% of your ad budget? If you're spending at least $5 million a year, odds are you're setting at least 7 figures on fire. Lifesight has run dozens of waste audits using incrementality tests. Across the board, 20-30% of media spend drives zero incremental revenue, despite what your in-platform ROAS says. Lifesight is a measurement platform that finds the waste and then tells you exactly what to cut, what to scale, and what to reallocate. No more dashboards and vibes. No more stitched together spreadsheets and gut feelings. Just real measurement, built for high growth brands, going to nine figures and beyond. If you're tired of chasing fake ROAS numbers that collapse as you scale, check out Lifesight.io slash Chew on This. Speaker 1: Now, let's get back to the episode. So, Rohit, you touched on a word that's already kind of a buzzword, you know, in this pot and it's going to come up a lot. You know, this incrementality word, right? You hear it way, way, way too much. It's a buzzword. Most operators don't even know where to begin, though, when they hear it, right? What does it actually mean in practice and where's a simple way to start optimizing for it? Speaker 2: Yeah, so at its core, incrementality is pretty simple, right? It's a simple concept to grasp. It's grounded in what marketing is supposed to do very intuitively, right? It's a portion of sales that would not have happened if not for that marketing exposure, right? So at its core, it's all about answering one core question, which is essentially, did my marketing actually cause this result or would it have happened anyway, right? So yeah, so as an example, someone searches for your brand, they click the first link, sponsored link, and they convert in a traditional attribution, would say, hey, nice, the paid search drove, you know, that sale and they get 100% of the credit, right? But was that person exposed to it, let's say a TV ad before that, who actually drove the decision? Or was it, was someone already planning to buy, right? So, incrementality essentially helps separate that baseline sales from incremental sales, right? Basically understanding, you know, what marketing truly drove. So yeah, so with that, they essentially are able to measure the actual contribution of each marketing tactic, which then helps them better optimize their spend allocation across all those different tactics, right? And so yeah, so it's marketing's job to drive new customers to the business and to get existing ones to buy more. And these two levers are the only things that you can pull to essentially drive your growth and profits, right? And so to do that, you must have an unbiased view that is first and foremost grounded in incrementality, right? Yeah, so for anyone who's looking to start, the best way to kind of get into this is, first and foremost, kind of reset your mindset. You know, don't trust in-platform attribution reports to essentially make very serious spend decisions. This is going to send you right into what you call an advertising doom loop. And the most straightforward way to get started is to actually run what you call a control experiment, right, which is a gold standard. You essentially can run something called a geo-lift test or geo-based test where you increase or decrease spend in certain sets of markets while holding a spend in another set, right? And so it's a clean and simple way to truly understand whether something is causing a lift and it gives you some clear evidence and concrete starting point for optimization. Speaker 3: So don't trust your ROAS. Speaker 2: Indeed, indeed. Speaker 1: You know, it's one thing you said which is really important is like you need to know if your marketing is working, right? Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: I think this brings in a good crossroad that probably Ankit can touch on a lot too. There's this constant battle between performance and brand that comes up as well. You take the brands that want to go and say, we're going to do out-of-home advertising, we're going to do billboards, we're going to do activations at different festivals. Then you have the performance team who's like, we're going to run ads. Right. And so I'm curious, when you look at those two worlds, right, do you put like Lifesight kind of sitting in the middle and taking in everything that's going on and almost giving everyone a scorecard of like, here's what you actually did to drive results. And if that is the case, how does that really work? Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest pitfall that marketers go through nowadays is they measure all these different tactics with different methodologies, right? So you're essentially measuring email using clicks, you're measuring, you know, search using clicks and so on, versus and then TV is measured with brand lift and stuff like that, right? And so, first and foremost, you want to get it to an apples-to-apples measurement system, right? You want to measure all marketing tactics equally because that's what's going to truly make you understand what is contributing to your bottom line, right? And so, yeah. The idea is to not separate brand versus performance, but to essentially understand how brand contributes to performance and vice versa, right? And basically see how brand times performance as opposed to versus, right? And so there's a whole bunch of things like interaction effects and all of that can be measured. But in essence you need an incrementality based measurement system or causal based measurement system to kind of gauge this contribution across the entire funnel and not just focus on bottom of the funnel or top of the funnel for example. Speaker 3: Now that makes sense because I feel like a lot of brands shy away from doing a lot of these initiatives that you can't measure that incrementality or they don't think they can measure it. So there's no real attribution there or they don't think there's an attribution there and I feel like if you had something like this, it would give brands a little bit more power to go and make those risks, make those plays because you can actually see where the lift is coming from. Speaker 1: I'm curious about if you can touch a little bit on, you've had the opportunity over the course of building Lifesight, which I'm super envious of, is almost having this bird's eye view, right? You kind of get to sit like the eagle and look at everything that's going on over Central Park. And I think what's really cool here about that is you see probably a lot of different ways to build a brand, first of all. Right, you see a lot of different things work and then you also see things that work for somebody. Works the complete opposite way for someone else, right? Break this down a little bit for us, right? When it comes to being a brand that's trying to do a lot of different things, especially when you look at the cost of meta going up the way it is, you look at the cost of, you know, inventory on just running ads, it's just, it's becoming unaffordable, right? So people are, well then let me go, let me go try TV or they're rushing to Applovin or they're, You know, let me go try Snapchat. Let me try all this thing, right? Is there, from your knowledge and from the fact that you have the viewpoint that you do, is there a right way to think about when to test new channels? How to, you know, really measure them out the gate? You know, nerd out here for a minute with us. What is some of the right, more practical ways to approach growth and testing channels? Speaker 2: Yeah, you typically have to start by kind of doing this audit, right, what we call the measurement audit. You want to have a look at how you're currently measuring all of your different tactics. You want to be able to, first and foremost, set up this measurement system which is going to be grounded in incrementality, right? And so, first and foremost, you want to identify what you call waste, right? So, identify which channels are most likely going to be non-incremental and understand which are the gaps that you might be missing, opportunities you might be missing. To grow your incremental, your net new customer base, right? And so the ability to do that is first and foremost accepting that you have to ditch the old ways of measuring. And then in essence, Start measuring the contribution, right? And you do this through testing your top channels, your top spend channels first and foremost, right? So setting up a testing schedule to ensure that you are testing the channels that you're spending most in at the moment, right? And then figuring out what the incrementality of those channels and then also then having a plan to test the rest, right? And so with that, you essentially understand your incrementality and then you can build out a A new contribution measurement that essentially helps you better allocate some of your budgets to the rest of the tactics, right? And of course, then from there, you want to test new channels. You want to be able to, you know, test top of the funnel tactics, right? So I'm a huge believer in ensuring that brands expose their product and solution to new net, new eyeballs all the time, right? Spend a lot of money there. As opposed to harvesting demand from existing customers and so the ability to test new top of the funnel tactics would be my top recommendation and it's a trend that I'm seeing today as you can probably tell as well. A lot of people are investing a lot of dollars into CTV and stuff like that. I'm a huge believer in YouTube as a great channel for scale and you know control over testing as well and so yeah so that's some of the things that I'll do. Speaker 3: So are you saying move away from retargeting and push that budget into the top of the funnel? Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely. That's the culprit number one that I'll go after first. Speaker 1: Makes a lot of sense. From your experience, what are the simple red flags that typical operators should look for in their ad reports? Would you say are there any go-to rule of thumbs that signal maybe a metric might be misleading or just flat-out useless? Because I do think we all Have our opinions on different things whether it's you know NCPA, CPA, ROAS, CTR, CPC, CPMs. What's your overall thoughts on approach here with reporting? Speaker 2: Yeah, so for those who are still relying on, you know, ad platform reports, I think the biggest red flags are, you know, if you use ROAS and CAC that's within the ad platform to actually, you know, use that as your source of truth, that's a huge red flag and you've got to change. You can use them while you're still running one channel or while you're still small, right? Because all of your customers are going to be incremental. So, but once you grow and you start having a bigger media mix, you have to first and foremost stop doing that, otherwise you're going to get in trouble. But in essence, the one of the main red flags that everyone immediately sees is this, that platform reported conversions exceed your actual site orders or sales, right? It's all duplicated claims, duplicated sales that are claimed across all the different platforms. So that's like a red flag that everyone should flag. And then also looking at extremely high ROAS numbers, right? Unrealistic high ROAS numbers, but you see that your new customer growth is flat essentially, right? So that's another thing that you want to be able to identify very quickly using those reports. And then finally, you see your blended CAC is rising, but Even though the ad dashboards keep saying that your ROAS is going up and up, right? And so that's another big red flag that I always keep a watch on. And so if your all-in clack is pretty much going up and your channel level ROAS still is, you know, performing, this usually means that your model is absolutely broken and it's time to test, right? Yeah. And yeah, from a rule of thumb perspective, you know, if it looks too good to be true, it's probably not in reality. If it's like if you pause a campaign, for example, you know, you've done some pausing of campaigns in the past, and your sales doesn't really hurt too much. So then you know that it's probably not incremental. And also, if you are not seeing net new customer growth, that is a huge red flag. And that is a rule of thumb, I would say, hey, you know, it's time to take a look at everything. Speaker 1: One thing you said that was really really important was in terms of when it comes to how you're even just parsing out your metrics to see what you're going to use as your carrot to say I'm going to spend more or less, right? I'm curious some of the things that people do on the marketing side just takes longer to come true, right? Like I talked to a lot of people who run podcast ads and you know they're often like it works great but it works great after four months. Right? And so I'm curious, you know, we've been so trained through the likes of tools like the North Beams and Triple Wheels of the world to go and say, we're going to go into this tool and it's going to tell us exactly what we need to know right now and then tomorrow I'm going to go and I'm going to get a completely different story about what I need to know right that moment, right? There isn't too much trailing or forward-looking stuff because that's not how Single touch attribution tools and those attribution tools have been training us. Tell me a little bit about how brands should consider looking at some of these additional efforts that do take longer. How are you supposed to really study and read your attribution reporting? Speaker 2: Yeah, so the first thing is to move away from this short, you know, attribution windows, right? The fixed time frame of your so-called conversion cycle, but understand your real conversion cycle, right? What's the maximum possible time that someone takes to convert? And then run a model and test based on that, right? And so you have to do modeling and experimentation to get to that result. MMM and GeoExperiment can Can account for that, right? But the biggest thing I heard this analogy recently was like essentially implementing a good measurement program is like running a weight loss program, right? It's going to take time, right? And implementing a good marketing program and measurement program is going to take time. You can't keep changing your diet every single day and expect to see the result the next day. And same like how you can't be measuring your campaigns every day and making little tweaks and hoping that something magical is going to happen, right? Marketing is such and brand marketing is such right someone might remember your brand today and and and they might convert like six months down the line right or two word of mouth. So that ability to measure on a consistent, always-on basis is the new measurement. There's no quick fix to it, right? It is way more difficult than the very deterministic touch-based attribution systems and where you can literally see the click and someone converting, but that's not the case in causal-based measurement systems, right? It's a more difficult thing to do, but Once you have it, you have a more accurate estimate of the ground truth as opposed to relying on something that is, you know, inaccurate. Yeah. Speaker 1: Well said. That was super, super helpful. Speaker 3: Before we move on, shout out to Last Click, the Tinder date of attribution models. Shows up at the end, takes all the credit. Speaker 1: Oh my god. That's actually a really good one. I haven't heard that one. Speaker 3: Marketing across multiple channels can be pure chaos. One platform says scale, the other says pause. The CFO says cut the budget. That's where Lifesight comes in. It combines geo-experiments, MMM, and incrementality-adjusted attribution in one unified platform. You get causality, not just correlation, and click paths. But the best part is, it doesn't stop at measurement. Lifesight gives you accurate plan forecasts with actionable recommendations like cut this campaign or scale this channel. If you're spending real money and don't know what's actually moving the needle, you need to try Lifesight. Get started with a 30-day free audit and platform evaluation by going to Lifesight.io slash Chew on This. They'll show you exactly where your spend is being wasted, no strings attached. Speaker 1: Now, let's get back to the episode. You know, you recently shared a story where a brand cut 40% of their retargeting budget and reallocated to Top of Funnel leading to a 25% lift in incremental revenue. Can you break that down and explain what that teaches us about how to evaluate the Top of Funnel performance? Speaker 2: Yeah, sure. This is one of my favorite cases and it's something that is like our go-to when we see someone spending heavily on retargeting. You know, it's a case grounded in basically the fundamentals of business and marketing, right? The need to get your product and solution in front of net new customers' eyeballs, right? And so when you're pouring money into advertising to people who already know you, you're definitely wasting your budget and that same budget could be put into actual growth, right? And driving your profit up, right? So in other words, your performance marketing is only going to be as good as the brand that you've built it on, right? And so top of the funnel brand marketing is the go-to engine for essentially efficient growth, right? And so the breakdown is here, right? This specific brand was spending heavily on retargeting because based on the ad reports, the ROAS looks fantastic, right? And they are getting incentivized to get that high ROAS, right? So the bonus gets released when the ROAS number is hit, right, in short. But that's this classic, what they call the doom loop trap, right? You're serving ads to people who already know you and then they're primed to buy. Of course, they're going to click and convert and then you're back into that essentially that shrinking pond, fishing in the same, you know, shrinking pond essentially, right? And your custom acquisition cost is just going to grow up and up based on that. So our immediate recommendation is immediately to cut a certain portion of that, a majority of it. Not to say retargeting is not going to work at all. It works to some extent, not as much as you typically spend on. But yeah, by reallocating that budget to the top of the funnel, so this typically Our playbook is in, you know, YouTube, CTV and stuff like that. You now start building your brand equity, right? You start telling people who you are and what you do with great creatives, right? Don't forget that creatives actually drive majority of a sale, not the measurement optimization, right? And so that is essentially a strong brand that makes the performance marketing activities more efficient, right, in short. So, immediately you see their branded search volume goes up organically, right? And then you see the click-through rates improve, their overall customer acquisition costs immediately drop, right? And that finally was measured to have caused an incremental lift of 25%, a 25% lift in incremental revenue, right? So, yeah. Speaker 1: Makes a lot of sense. That's an incredible story. I think so many brands, right, like today, they often just look at things in piecemeal. They're like, I got to spend 70% in this bucket, 20% here and 10% here. And they want to, first of all, those arbitrary numbers were made up in like 2019. And they, you know, somehow those buckets stayed alive. And then you have the people who start to like test away from it, but they don't want to believe it's true. Right and so I think you see a lot of brands stuck in operating the same way and I honestly think even Obviate at times we fall privy to this where it's like we think we should go and test more things, we try to get there and then I don't know what the blocker is but we don't do it. Speaker 3: It's either that or we do it, but we don't give it the time that it needs. Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely the latter two. Like we've definitely done trucks, for example, right? But after two months, you turn it off. Speaker 3: Just because of the attribution. Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was like we were looking, I remember I think we put shopobv or something.com on the truck and we were like, oh we're not getting any direct clicks here, let's just turn this off, you know? And like we unwrapped a bunch of trucks and I think in hindsight, you know, talking to a brand like David, Protein, let's say, you know, they've been ramping up their trucks and it's more so like, hey, it's creating this element of brand that where we are now staying present in people's mind, right? And I think you forget how to value that because we're so trained on the click. Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely. I think one of the marketing gurus has said that Your brain is the best SEO. You first recall the brand instantly in your head when you want a problem solved. And having that top of mind presence is actually the most important thing. Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. You know, the other thing I think marketing and finance, they often speak different languages, right? Especially when like our attribution is like get super fuzzy. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: What frameworks or like reporting methods have you seen actually build trust between these two teams? Because I mean, we see it within our teams as well. You know, if performance goes down a little bit, the first thing is the finance team is walking over and you can already tell what they're going to say, which is something along the lines, hey, let's pull back, efficiency is down. What's going on with revenue? How can we do more retention? How can we still keep revenue but spend less to make up for the few patchy days? And it's like, all right, well, let's go and figure this out and rip up a campaign. But I think the fact, the problem is sometimes marketing doesn't even get to breathe. Not because you don't believe in it, but because finance has a totally different requirement. So curious to know your thoughts from that. Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a huge challenge. You know, people have been trained and it's ingrained in their minds on how things are supposed to operate. And making this big move and shift to improving that essentially is a business of change management, right? So our CEO always jokes and says that, hey, we are not in the business of Marketing measurement, we're in the business of change management, right? And so the ability to, it's something that I'm very passionate about solving. So the problem is marketing is speaking this different language, right? You've got ROAS and creative performance and reach on one side, and the other side they're talking EBITDA, cash flow and profitability, right? And so this trust is, The start of the trust actually starts in building the shared language, right? Which is definitely always going to have to be on the business KPI itself, right? Because that's what pays the bills, that's what drives things forward, right? And so changing the incentive structure from marketers getting incentivized for driving ROAS to actually driving profit or revenue is something that has to happen first and foremost. And enough with the vanity metrics, right? So no more walking into a boardroom with fuzzy attribution reports that say, hey, our social engagement went up or ROAS numbers were this much for this campaign, right? You got to ditch all of that. And in a sense, you have to go to the boardroom saying, hey, our model validated by the experiments we just ran, Essentially shows that for every dollar we invest in meta or in specific channel, we can expect four dollars back, right, within the next six months. So very clear communication of what marketing is truly driving. And so the most effective framework that I've seen is first and foremost to change the measurement method. So moving from attribution to contribution. I'm changing that mindset first and foremost, and then changing the reporting outcomes to, hey, here's what happened, to here's what we're going to do next, right? And so this is where the unified measurement framework becomes indispensable, right? It allows the CMO to have a seat at the table and speak to the CFO, not just to justify their spend, but also how they're going to collectively drive future outcomes, right? And so you're not just defending your budget or like, hey, can I get more and beg for budget? You're collectively trying to work towards a goal together. And the biggest tip I can give any CMO or any marketing leader is Get finance teams involved in the process of measurement from day one, right? So you're not like telling them a report at the end of the entire quarter. You're actually working with them through the entire quarter to drive those numbers and cost correct if needed, right? But essentially have something A source of truth, which is something we use in Lifesight, which is known as Incrementality Adjusted P&L, right? And this essentially brings the marketing world to the financial world and the ability to essentially reframe that conversation of marketing performance in financial terms. Right. So instead of saying Meta gave us, you know, 3.2x ROAS, you're kind of essentially saying Meta drove, you know, 2.8 million in incremental revenue at a 28% contribution margin, for example, right? Now you're speaking the CFO's language and now the alignment starts to happen. And then, you know, everyone is on the track to build a proper partnership. Speaker 3: I love that. It pretty much bridges that language barrier. How do we get that for marketing and brand? Speaker 1: Well, we're actually actively, as we speak, onboarding with Lifesight. Speaker 3: Oh, perfect. Speaker 1: I think it's going to be really, really important there. You know, I think one thing that you mentioned is speaking the language and a CMO having a seat at the table, right? These are things that are actually very almost foreign to like I would say 80% of the brands out there. These are departments that are supposed to work in silos. There's really not supposed to be much overlap. The only reason a CMO should really talk to his CFO, again this is not ideal, but what happens is if his paycheck is wrong and he needs to make sure that he gets his bonus paid out correctly. So you know the problem with that is though is The two things that are the two pillars of the business, if one is crumbling and the other one doesn't know it has to pick up the weight and move things around and make it work, that's where the whole thing's collapsed, right? And I think the fact that you guys are creating a way of saying, hey, let's talk through this and figure out what we need to do, right? I think that's super important. Speaker 2: Absolutely. Speaker 1: Very, very powerful. I know we're going to come up on Closer. I have a couple more questions before we jump into the rapid fire. But this is an interesting one that actually came in from one of our fans. And before we do every episode, we always ask our audience to always drop in some questions, depending on who the guest is. So one question that came in was, if you were dropped into a seven-figure e-com brand tomorrow and tasked with optimizing their entire marketing strategy, Walk us through your checklist. This sounds like a lazy person who wants the answers, but what would be that checklist? Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I kind of touched a little bit on that earlier. Essentially run this measurement and growth audit, right? Really get into the books in terms of what's really running at the moment, right? So step one, understand the business, right? The business model and the P&L. What's the business model? What's the percentage of new versus existing? Is it a single skew, multi-skew? Which is the biggest market? Is it seasonal? Is it promotion heavy? What is your margin? LTV and so on. So get all those numbers down in order to truly understand which marketing driven activity is actually driving some of those numbers and then finally translating to profit, right? Because some channels could be extremely look good, but then it's not necessarily profitable, right? So before we touch anything in the media side or marketing strategy side, we've got to be very clear what success looks like, right? And then you essentially run an audit on your spend allocation. So mapping the funnel And understanding, identifying all the blind spots and then saying, hey, OK, you know, are we over investing in some tactics? Are we under investing in some tactics? Right. So that's when you start the actual incrementality measurement process and start running experiments. Right. Then next I would then reallocate those budgets based on marginal ROAS numbers, right? Don't forget all of these activities is based on marginal incremental returns, right? So you want to be able to know where to invest your next dollar as well. And so we would actually do that as the next step. And then finally putting the actual program in place, right? Everyone treats measurement as a A dashboard in a platform somewhere, right? A dashboard somewhere sitting in isolation, but actually it needs to be incorporated into the system like a measurement, like a CRM system that is within a business. A measurement program has to be there as well, right? And so I would put a lot of effort into getting everyone aligned with this new measurement methodology and also then Getting the decision framework that comes out of it, right? Whether strategic, tactical, operational decisions, how are you going to now make your decisions based on those new metrics, right? And the ability to now look at those numbers and take the appropriate decisions is something that I would put into practice within that organization, right? And that obviously comes along with the alignment of finance and marketing that we just spoke about. Over a period of time, it's going to take time obviously, it's not that easy to change people's minds and behaviors but in essence that would be what I'll do if I step into a role like that. Speaker 3: If you're scaling across Meta, Google, TikTok, and Connected TV but still don't have a clear answer to what's actually working, Lifesight can give you that clarity. It helps you move away from outdated touch-based attribution models. It's a measurement tool that shows what's truly driving growth and profits so you can make your best decisions. They'll audit your ad spend for free, show you where the waste is, and give you a clear plan to reallocate it. If you're ready to stop guessing and start scaling with confidence, get started with your first 30 days on the house. Check out lifesight.io slash chew on this or hit the link in the description. Speaker 1: Now, let's get back to the episode. Speaker 2: It's a bit of a controversial one, but it's true and false. True in the sense that you can trust it to tell you what's happening inside meta, but false in the side that you can't trust it to tell you what to do next, right? Whether it's a true incremental contribution to your bottom line, right? So yeah. Speaker 1: What's one marketing hill you'll die on that most people still argue with you about? Speaker 2: It's that brand and marketing isn't effective or measurable. It's the single most powerful performance driver that you'll ever have that is extremely efficient. The data is clear, you know, strong brand marketing essentially makes all your other channels cheaper and more effective. Yeah. Speaker 3: What's one e-com trend everyone's hyped about but you think is pure fluff? Speaker 2: It's another controversial take, but I can't get this obsession with hyper-targeting or like super-targeted AI personalization. If I just send that one more hyper-personalized email or I send that perfect ad to the perfect time, you know, at the perfect person, don't get me wrong, I'm sure it drives some results, but you know, advertising used to work just fine without all this tech, right? And what truly moves the needle is getting your brand message in front of people's eyeballs, net new eyeballs and then watch that fill the funnel and let it trickle down naturally when people need that solution. Speaker 1: Amazing. You get a 1 million dollar marketing budget but you can only use it on one channel. Which one are you picking and why? Speaker 2: I would say YouTube. You know, it gives you the best of both worlds. You have this massive scale, powerful video and brand storytelling possible. And also then you can control at a very granular level and test various creatives and tactics and geos and all of that. So, based on the test that we've done, it always delivers far more lift per dollar than, you know, search and retargeting. Speaker 3: We got to do more YouTube. Speaker 1: Yeah, we do. Speaker 3: Last one for you. What's one failure you had in life that turned out to be a blessing in disguise? Speaker 2: Yeah, so I would say we've spent millions of dollars trying to build the ultimate CDP for the consumer brand, right? Customer data platform where there was this merger of MTA and retention marketing built into like a single flow and we thought that was like the way forward after the privacy kind of world took over. But, you know, the most advanced tracking failed in this whole privacy world, right? And so, and yet we couldn't answer a simple question from a finance team, where should you invest your next dollar in a confident manner, right? And so that aha moment basically I rendered all of that work we did and millions of dollars we spent building those platforms, which is a complete failure. All of that basically helped us now build this new platform and take this new approach and pivoted the company to a great place that it is today. Speaker 1: I think, again, super envious of how much knowledge you have in this. Obviously, you're building something incredible with that knowledge in Lifesight. I think in today's world where so many brands are struggling with understanding what to do next, it's not because nothing's working. It's because we don't have enough data to tell us and guide us on what to do next. So the fact that you guys are solving for that I think is so powerful. The one thing we like to do at the end of every episode is if you can give everyone one thing to chew on, one thing to take away, one thing you'd want them to apply to their business, what's that one thing you want to give our viewers and listeners to walk away with today? Speaker 2: Yeah, I think everyone, like I mentioned, is pretty, you know, over the past 20 years, they've been told that, hey, this is how you measure marketing through conventional touch-based attribution. And making that change to causal-based measurement or incrementality measurement might feel a bit daunting. Because it's very probabilistic and it's an estimate rather than a clear count of numbers, I would advise you to just make that leap, right? Because it's not as difficult as you think and it's not as complicated as you think, right? And so once you see the result from your first efforts doing that, and you can do it yourself as well, right? You can run your own geotests and stuff like that. So don't hold yourself back. Take that leap, test it for yourself and then you'd see how it's going to actually change how everything happens in the business. Speaker 1: Chew on that. Speaker 3: If you want more from us, follow us on Twitter, follow us on Instagram, follow us on TikTok and check out the website ChewOnThis.io.