This guy made millions by inventing the McFlurry & the $1 Menu

This guy made millions by inventing the McFlurry & the $1 Menu Speaker 1: All right, Sam, I got a Billy of the Week for you. I'm excited about it. I got goosebumps thinking about this guy. He's an inventor. He's an innovator. You know, Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, Thomas Edison. Look, if those guys were going on a road trip, but there's only one set of keys, They would toss it to this guy. He would get to drive and his name is Tom Ryan I feel like I can rule the world. I know I could be what I want Tom Ryan is basically the Leonardo da Vinci of calories. Okay, this is a guy who has invented some of the most iconic foods ever In history, he invented the McGriddle. Smashburger, The Chain. He invented the beef dip sandwich at Quiznos. His guy has just been inventing things in the food category. The McFlurry, he's just been inventing things for, you know, just decades and he is like the godfather of food science and so I want to tell you a little bit about this guy. Speaker 2: Okay, I'm interested because I didn't think that something like dipping a sandwich in au jus, I didn't think that was like an invention and so I'm very... Speaker 1: Okay, so some of these things, I'm using the word invention a little liberally, right? Some of them he genuinely invented, meaning like nobody had done that before. Some of it is he created that product at that company, which was not previously a product. And so sometimes it might be like, oh, well, you know, somebody else had the idea of, you know, a sweet sandwich. Okay, but cool. He invented the McGriddle. It's a specific thing that he invented that made it work, and here's why. Speaker 2: Can we start by me asking, how did you even discover this? Were you like on the McRiddle Wikipedia page? Speaker 1: Just, you know, when you're eating something and it's so good, you're like, I'd like to pay homage. Who's the man who invented this? I'd like to put some flowers on his tombstone. That's not exactly what happened. I saw TikTok about this guy and I was like, there's no way one guy did all this. Speaker 2: Okay. Speaker 1: All right. So this guy basically he Go to college and when he's at college, he has a girlfriend. The girlfriend's taking a food science class. So she convinces him to take it. He goes there and immediately falls in love. He's like, oh my god, I didn't even realize there's a whole science behind Things like ketchup and ice cream, like there's literally like chemistry science, but then there's also sort of the brain science, psychology, the tongue science of like what flavors work. And so then he not only studies food science, he then gets a master's in something called lipid toxicology, right? So this guy's just studying like the science of fat. And I would say this guy is like, you know, I don't know what the equivalent of the Nobel Peace Prize is, but for like obesity, this guy deserves it. So he goes and he gets a job at Duncan Hines. He then works at Jif and he's like pioneering a lot of their peanut butter work that, you know, does some really great peanut butter work. Speaker 2: The best work. Speaker 1: Yeah. He's like, you know, these open AI researchers that are just getting poached from lab to lab. That was him going from Hines Food Lab to the Jif Food Lab. And then he gets a call from Pizza Hut. And they recruit him as head of new products because he's got this reputation. Because even at Jif, he was launching new products. And so he gets this reputation as being like this sort of mad genius. And his friend tells him when he gets the job at Pizza Hut for head of new products, he goes, dude, I'm so sorry. He goes, what? He's like, that's a tough position, man. Everything's already been done in pizza. Like you're doomed. You're doomed to fail. Pizza is a solved problem. And there's a quote from him, he goes, that pissed me off. He goes, it pissed me off, not because the guy was doubting me, but because a lot of the world thinks like that. They think the world is full of solved problems. I don't think like that. I think there's always an opportunity. So he goes into the research and he's doing research and he's like, all right, what do consumers care about when it comes to pizza? And he's like, all right, two things are very clear to me after studying how people eat pizza. Number one, Cheese is the value driver. The more cheese, the better the cheese, the better. And there's really no limit to the amount of cheese that people are willing to have in their pizza. And second, the dogs eat the crust. He's like, the crust is the necessary part because you need a handle to hold the pizza, but it's the worst part of the pizza. People just give it to the dog. And so he's like, all right, I need to put cheese in the crust. And so, you know, he goes to his team and they're like, yeah, we'll just put some cheese on top of the crust. It'll be great. He's like, nah, it doesn't have that wow factor. He's like, we got to have a wow factor. It's got to feel different. It can't just be that we've added cheese to crust. It's got to, like, be something that's marketable. And so he's like, let's figure out how to put cheese inside the crust. Which was a whole like physics problem because, you know, he's like the first one he made like that. He's like it tasted pretty good, but it looked like a like a bike tire. Like I burnt the whole outer crust. It was like this fat, you know, like burnt thing. And so he had to figure out how do you cook the pizza so that you can have gooey cheese in the crust without burning the crust. And so he does some work and they figure it out. They get a special dough and a special pan and they get it to work and it becomes this huge hit. But then he's also a marketing genius. And so he creates, he's like, you know what? We don't need to do something new. What we need to do is, have you ever seen this Malcolm Gladwell talk that he gives as his big TED talk about the perfect pastas? Have you seen this? Speaker 2: No, that sounds great. What is it? Speaker 1: So it's Malcolm Gladwell's famous TED talk from back in the day when he was, you know, Malcolm Gladwell was the man writing Tipping Point and others. And he basically talks about this guy, another food scientist, who got hired by a pasta sauce company, Ragu or whoever. And they were like, we need you to figure out how much, like, what's the perfect pasta sauce? Like, should it have, like, chunks in it? Should it be just smooth? Should it have, like, herbs in it or just be plain? Should it have cheese? Like, what's the perfect pasta sauce? And the big takeaway, the spoiler of this TED Talk is the guy discovers there's no perfect pasta sauce. There's only perfect pasta sauces, meaning you cluster people into like four or five categories. If you like chunks, then give them way more chunks than you're currently giving them. Like they want way more. If you like spice, make it way spicier. It's too mild for them today. And if you like cheese, put cheese in. So you basically like The middle that they're trying to serve everybody wasn't working and they actually needed to go extreme. So this guy discovers the same thing in pizza. He creates the meat lover's pizza. He creates the pepperoni lover's pizza, the cheese lover's pizza, and he creates the lover's line of pizzas there, and that becomes a huge success. So he's crushing it at Pizza Hut. Speaker 2: All this sounds silly, like I'm laughing. It's not silly. This is great. This is really hard to do in a corporate setting, to convince someone. Speaker 1: This is true inventions, true innovations. I'm laughing, but... And this is moving billions of dollars of product, right? And this is like, you know, hitting millions of customers. And this is also, by the way, we have friends that work at Facebook and Google, and they're like, yeah, I'm optimizing the marketplace banner ads to be like, you know, whatever. It's like, you know, you were talking about this with, I think, your wife. Speaker 2: Yeah, I was like, if my wife worked on the team of them trying to put stickers on photos, and she's like, well, if the dog's tongue is out of the mouth, the click-through rate is 5% versus if it's in the mouth, it's only 1%. Speaker 1: Right. And there's definitely like a cynical side of this, which is like our world's greatest minds are basically Just fine-tuning knobs inside of giant slot machines, which is really what's happening inside of most big tech companies and most big food companies. But hey, I'm not a hater. Let me just see some positive things of this. Okay, so he gets the call. He's at Pizza Hut. He's crushing it. He creates all those products. Ring, ring. Hello? Yeah, this is Tom. Speaking. And then on the other side, he said, Ronald? Is that you? And Ronald McDonald calls. He gets called up to the biggest of the big leagues. He gets called by McDonald's. McDonald's says, we need you. Speaker 2: Is he a kid right now? Or is he like... Speaker 1: Grown-ass man. Speaker 2: Okay. Speaker 1: So he has a great thing, by the way, one of his frameworks, because they're like, how do you invent? Because like, honestly, he's one of the more creative inventors of our lifetime. And they're like, how do you invent? And he goes, I try to get inside the mind of an ambitious 32-year-old. He's like, basically when you're 32, you have money, you have taste, so you kind of know what you like and you don't like, but you're still open-minded. You're not closed off to the world. And you're not easily swayed by the latest trend of everything, but you're still with it. And you're still a part of every major trend that has staying power. And so he's like, I study the mind of an ambitious 32-year-old. Speaker 2: And he works backwards from that. Speaker 1: So he gets a call from McDonald's. He goes there and they're like, all right, where's the opportunity? And he's like, all right, let's look at breakfast. They start looking at breakfast. And he's like, all right, you got coffee, check. And then you have all your, like, savory foods. Check. He's like, got nothing sweet. And he starts thinking about it. He's like, all right, you know, casual answer. We need French toast. We need pancakes. And he's like, oh, this average, first-level thinking. Ew. Get out of the room. And he says, no, no, no. What are we really going to do? And he goes, So he he's a master of constraints, so he says How do we take the Denny's Grand Slam breakfast and put it in your hand? And they're like what and he's like I want an entire Grand Slam breakfast But that will fit just fit in your hand because that's what McDonald's does this guy sounds like a South Park character So he creates the McGriddle Which is exactly that? It's a sweet breakfast item that fits in your hand pops off McGriddle becomes a huge hit McDonald's breakfast surges on the back of this creates billions of dollars in market cap and All because and he had to do some invention. He's like well, we can't have this messy drippy syrup, you know, sticky sandwich. Like yeah, I can't put a sticky thing in your hand then your whole day's ruined. You're not coming back the next day. And I've never had a McGriddle. Have you had one? Speaker 2: Well, hell yeah. Yeah, of course. You've never had a McGriddle? Speaker 1: I've never had a McGriddle. Speaker 2: Are you part of Al-Qaeda? Like this is like the greatest, like the greatest American... Speaker 1: I've been in one of those caves for like decades. Unknown Speaker: Where have you been? Speaker 1: I thought the war was still going on. Speaker 2: Yeah, what the hell, man? This is the best. This is the best. Speaker 1: Honestly, I never even considered it, but after this, I'm so in. Apparently, there's, so you tell me, I don't know, is it not like covered in syrup and actually there's something called syrup crystals that are inside the pancake? Speaker 2: Yes, they're like little balls of sugary syrup and it's wonderful and it mixes perfectly with the salty sausage. Speaker 1: Okay, so that's it. That's what he did. Tom does it. So he does that. Speaker 2: And you don't get a mess on your hand. So you get the syrup without a mess on your hand. Alright, so a lot of people will talk about how you need a million dollars and three years of experience to start a business. Nonsense. If you've listened to at least one episode on this podcast, you know that is completely not true. My last company, The Hustle, we grew it to something like $17 or $18 million in revenue. I started it with like $300. My current company, Hampton, does over $10 million in revenue. Started it with actually no money, maybe $29 or something like that, nothing. And so you don't actually need investors to start a company. You don't need a fancy business plan. But what you do need is systems that actually work. And so my old company, The Hustle, they put together five proven business models that you could start right now today with under $1,000. These are models that if you do it correctly, it can make money this week. You can get it right now. You can scan the QR code or click the link in the description. Now, back to the show. Speaker 1: And now you might be thinking, all right, is this guy like, you know, what's he really about? Is he just saying this for himself? Is he an elite? Is he one of these elites that I should hate? Or is he a man of the people? Well, he's a man of the people. He creates the dollar menu. The dollar menu, dude. What an iconic move. Speaker 2: Is he an employee at McDonald's right now? Or is he an entrepreneur? No, I mean in the story, in the story, at this point in the story. Speaker 1: Yeah, of course. He did it. Speaker 2: He's a mercenary. He's a hired gun and he drops in like he's like a one-man Navy SEAL who drops in and like nails the target and bounces after a handful of years. Speaker 1: I don't know why there's no movie about this guy yet. I don't want to see Jason Bourne. I want to see Tom Ryan. Speaker 2: The only question that we have at this point is, does it come in via parachute or just do they storm the beach on a boat? Like, what's he going to do? Yeah, the story's been told. Speaker 1: Like a hot dog truck barges in. So he creates the dollar menu, creates the McFlurry, and then he goes to Quiznos. Quiznos poaches him. He does a little bit of work there, but the owner of Quiznos is like, yeah, this is the guy. So he says, forget Quiznos. Let's just create a whole new concept together. And they create Smashburger together, which I don't know if you've paid attention, but As a former QSR operator myself, I have a lot of respect and esteem for Smashburger. Speaker 2: Smashburger is just, it's just thin. I mean, it's a burger that you, when you grill it, you put the meat, you stick the thing, the metal in the meat, right? You smash it. Speaker 1: So it's kind of like a thin crust pizza, but for burgers. So they kind of smash the burger, which gives it like more of a char on both sides. Speaker 2: Which is better for them too, because it's less meat. Speaker 1: Well, I think it's the same. It just gets wider. Got it. Speaker 2: Okay. Speaker 1: But it tastes better, I think. And so they create Smashburger and become successful. But what a prolific career for this guy. And what a track record. Who has dominated their industry the way this man has dominated fast food science, right? Like fast food, food science. Pretty inspiring. Speaker 2: And so when I Googled his name, it came up with Jobily Foods Corporation. Is he associated with that? Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know what that is. He's got new stuff that he's doing. Like a new like sports bar type of deal. He's got Smashburger. He was the CEO of Smashburger for a while. I don't know what all he's doing now. But they were like, you want to retire? He's like, retire? I wake up every day. I'm trying to dominate the palette. You think I want to go play golf? What do you think this is? Speaker 2: Have you Googled him? He's a beautiful man. He's got the most beautiful head of hair I've seen in a long time. Speaker 1: He looks like a British reporter who covers sports. He looks like that guy. Speaker 2: In the 90s, in every rom-com, the woman was vying for an editor-in-chief job at Vogue or something like that. He looks like the second character. Now the second character is a British or California record label executive. So they work in AR or they're running a label and they miss the kids baseball game because they have to check out this band. He looks like that character. He looks like the record label executive from every 90s rom-com movie. Is he like this alpha, like get after it type of guy or is he like a kooky, forgetful professor who wears two not matching socks? Speaker 1: Okay, that I don't know, but he's an alpha in my mind. He's an alpha to me. I'm gladly a beta to him. This guy's amazing. Did I tell you, by the way, back in the day when I was doing my sushi restaurant chain, we went to a, you know, like these industry conferences that We went to FarmCon. It's like a farmer's conference. Well, I went to a food version of this. I don't know if you've ever been to any of these quirky industry trade show conferences. They're so funny, dude. Speaker 2: I went to Inbound, the Hubspot's Inbound Marketing Conference. I'll be there. There's a whole talk on converting MQLs to SQLs. Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like that. So I went to this thing because there's a QSR magazine, quick service restaurant. So there's a quick service magazine and we apply. We're like, hey, we really want to go to the conference. Can you give us free tickets? So we go, and you know what the icebreaker was? We got there, and the icebreaker, when you come in, in the lobby, they have three tables set up of just, like, dirty dishes, like it's a restaurant table, and it was a speed busing competition, so you would go with three other people. And you'd have to try to bust the table as fast as you can, and whoever had the best bust succeeded, basically won the contest, got a keychain or something like that. It was amazing. The guy who organized it, his name was literally Tom Hamburger. It was unreal. Speaker 2: We've done 758 plus, I think, episodes of MFM, and this happens a lot where a lot of people don't realize this, but for the majority of episodes, you and I don't talk in advance because we like to surprise each other on air on the topic. This is funny. What you're saying is very similar to the topic that I had brought. Speaker 1: Okay, what you got? Speaker 2: And so this can all actually be related and I have what I think could be like a nice little bow at the end to like how this could be good for entrepreneurs or business owners listening. I found a photo of a billboard that I saw recently that stopped me in my tracks. And so I want you to look at this billboard and tell me what it says. Speaker 1: Okay, so it says boiled cod and it's a picture of a cod. Slightly more protein per calorie than our bars. David, the David Bar. Speaker 2: Okay, have you seen this? Speaker 1: No, amazing. Speaker 2: Okay, so I want to tell you a story about this and I want to explain a little bit like nerdy marketing about why it works. So the story behind this, we had Peter Raha on the podcast I think like six months ago. So Peter was the guy who started RX Bar in his mom's basement and he eventually sold it for something like 650 million dollars only six years after starting. Speaker 1: By the way, the episode he did with us was awesome. If you want to go listen to a fun episode, listen to that one. Basically, he tells a story of how he built RxBar, how he's building DavidBar, but also he had four or five other ideas of, if I was going to go into a category, this is the type of category I look at and how I would attack it, which is what you always want from an entrepreneur who's got expertise that comes on the pod. It's like, great. Tell me how you did it. Tell me what you're doing now. But okay, that's great for you. What about for me? And do you have specific ideas and like a specific approach you take that I can learn from for like white space right now? Speaker 2: And he actually had a third part of that, which was he had a beautiful attitude. And not beautiful in the sense of fun to be around. He was sort of like Napoleon. He had this conquer-the-world energy that I thought was actually kind of cool. Very intense energy that I thought was interesting. And so when he came on, he told us the story of RxBar. He told us the story about David Protein Bars. I don't think David had launched at that point. But the background behind David is when he was, and I have to give a shout out to New York Times daily. I'm using them as a source for this. But when he started... David, the idea was with RxBar, it was a natural bar. It was made out of, I think, dates, and it had a very small amount of protein. And he noticed that had I had more protein in this bar, I think I would have been able to approach a larger market and I could create something a lot bigger. And so David finds this thing called EPG. It's a delivery mechanism for protein. And eventually, David actually, the company, has bought the company that owns the patent for EPG. And EPG is a type of chemical that allows protein to be delivered to you faster. Speaker 1: So let me just ask this question because the doc here says, it's a modified fat called EPG which delivers the texture of fat but it passes through your body with 92% fewer calories. Is this Remember when Paul Merlucki came on and he was like, diet Coke is amazing. And he's like, I just wanted to make like diet Coke for like any food into the equivalent of diet Coke. So it's just like food that tastes really good, but it basically just passes straight through your body and it can't be absorbed and therefore like doesn't make you fat. Is that what this is? Basically, it's like some of that tastes good. You can put it in a bar, but because it can't be absorbed by your body, It doesn't have the sort of caloric impact. Is that what it is? Speaker 2: So basically, it's one of the most efficient ways to get tons and tons of protein into your body per calorie. And the way they do that is via EPG, which is an incredibly ultra-processed food. So I don't know if it's what you're describing, but the criticisms for David, of which we had Justin Mares on the podcast. He was a very loud, vocal critic of this. He has basically said, David may get you lots and lots of protein, but it's incredibly ultra-processed, and there's the argument as to why that's not good, because this chemical or whatever you want to call it, EPG, there's a lot of people who want to criticize it and say it's bad, and I'm not going to place judgment on either side. I'm just telling you there's two sides of this argument, which is what I'm going to get to, but people loved it, and so David, which I think, is it even two years old yet? Speaker 1: I think it's one-year-old, roughly, because he was on about a year ago on the podcast, and I think it was just about to launch or had just launched. Speaker 2: So this year, they're going to do close to $200 million in sales in roughly the second year of business. Insane. They're on a tear. They did a million dollars in the first week of sales. And if you go to any store right now, I don't know what it's like in California, but any store in New York, they're everywhere. David Protein Bars are everywhere, and they've crushed it on the marketing, in particular. They've crushed it on the product side, but they've really killed it on the marketing. And so when I saw this sign, Boyle Cod, it stopped me in my tracks. And the reason it stopped me in my tracks is I'm reading this book. I'm rereading. We had Tim Ferriss on the podcast and he had mentioned this book that he loved. It was called The 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing. Have you ever read of that? Speaker 1: I have it, but I haven't read it yet. Speaker 2: It was one of these things where I skimmed before when I was younger, but when we had him on, he made a comment that it was a great book, and I was like, you know, I should actually sit down and read that. It's really short. It's only 100 pages. You can basically read it in one or two sittings. One of the laws is called the law of the opposite. The reason why this is relevant to the story that you just said is because it goes to the science and the methodology behind, in 22 different ways, to stand out and be different and to focus on something that's not better but different. The law of the opposite states that If you're not the leader of a category, your strategy is then dictated by the leader, which means it's best to not to be better than the leader, but to be the opposite. Customers already have the leader's position locked in their mind, and you win by framing yourself as an alternative. And the key is to embrace the differences and often exaggerate them. And the reason this all works is marketing is a battle of perceptions, not products. The challenger doesn't need to disprove the leader. They need to define themselves as the antidote, meaning we are not them. We're the other choice. And so why is this so interesting? Because David took the criticisms of them being an ultra-processed food And they ran towards the fire, so much so that on their website, I thought that this was a joke. And so what they're doing is they are positioning themselves as an alternative to natural foods. They're saying, yeah, natural frozen cod, that's the best. It's definitely the best. But like, it's disgusting. Who the hell wants to eat that? Eat this other thing that tastes good and it's just a little bit less good in terms of protein per calorie, but you're actually going to be able to consume it. Speaker 1: They're actually selling Wild Cod. Speaker 2: So that's what I was going to say. If you go to their website, they sell it. They're selling it. And so this is a masterclass on how to handle this situation. Speaker 1: What's hilarious, by the way, on the site, it's They're COD, so they're Wildcat COD, and it's like 23 grams of protein, 100 calories, no sugar. You can get it. It's four filets, flash frozen, add to cart. And then there's all their bars, like chocolate chip cookie dough, peanut butter chunk, all sold out. Here's all the sold out bars. Here's COD, fully available. We've got a lot of this stuff still in stock. Speaker 2: And there's a bunch of examples of the law of opposites. Do you remember, I don't know if you remember this as a kid, but you would see commercials for Avis. Do you remember Avis? Speaker 1: Yeah, the rental car. Speaker 2: Yeah. So basically, Avis was number two in the market and Hertz was the biggest company by far. And Avis had this amazing brand campaign where they said, we're number two, so we try harder. And that was their campaign, which is like, we know we're number two, we're going to try harder. That's another example of the law of opposite. But David has executed this flawlessly. And it's like an amazing thing to lean into. And this is like not something that like. Speaker 1: Dude, I'm just kicking myself because when he came on, I literally fell in love with the guy. I was like, I love this guy's intensity, love this guy's honesty, love his approach. He's clearly like... I'm an expert in this field, in this industry, in attacking this. It was so obvious that they had nailed the branding and packaging of the bar, so I'm just mad that I didn't push to try to invest in this thing and be like, hey, I'm so bullish on this, and it has played out exactly as I would have guessed. Speaker 2: I think we said, what's your goal? He goes, well, I actually think we're going to expand the TAM, and I think that this is going to be a $10 billion company. Speaker 1: Yeah, that's crazy. I like their copy on their site. We thank our predecessors in the protein industry. We'll take it from here. Speaker 2: It's so good, right? They nail it on branding. They nail a bunch of stuff. And when I saw this COD billboard, I was like, oh, that's so good. That's exactly what the book, 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing, that's exactly what they had mentioned with the law of opposites, and they completely nailed it. And if you are a small business owner, very similar to what this guy Tom Ryan did, I would highly recommend reading this book and then downloading it and uploading to ChatGPT. It's so cool and interesting. We're here to give you ideas on your product or your positioning and what he just was explaining about with the McRiddle and all that stuff. It's all very, very, very similar to this, which is the goal is not to be better. The goal is to be different because a meat lover's pizza, that's not particularly better. It's just that's remarkably different than anything else. Listen up. Speaker 1: The old playbook is slowing you down. AI broke the funnel. Loop marketing fixes it. It's a new era for marketers. AI is capturing search traffic, channels are fragmented, and generating leads feels less predictable than ever before. Hubspot's loop marketing playbook will guide you through this unprecedented disruption. It's the system your marketing teams should use to move faster, connect deeper, and grow smarter. The modern growth playbook for the AI era. Built by Hubspot, designed for today's marketer. Get the Loop Marketing Playbook at hubspot.com slash loop-marketing to find out more and leave your competition behind. All right, back to the pod. All right, let's do another topic. Okay, I have a little stock market thing. Can I do a stock thing? Yeah. Which is pretty stupid and dangerous because like Most likely just gonna get be wrong and get ripped apart here. Speaker 2: Not entirely. So last time we talked about this type of stuff you picked so we're all Disclosure-worthy. It's don't do anything. We're saying the last time though you picked UFC. Speaker 1: We did an episode called Stockapalooza about a year ago. I don't know when that was. The idea was that me and Sam would go research, and we'd just try to pick a stock. We'd try to make a call, similar to the Soan Conference, where you just try to find a company that you would believe in as an outperformer, and then we made our case. And I picked TKO, which is the parent company of UFC and WWE. And you picked Ferrari, right? And I think, I believe we did that episode, so February 12, 2024. Let's see what the stock price has performed since then. Okay, so the stock at that time was trading at $85, and it's currently at $185. Okay, so, you know, up, what is that, over 100%, 117%? Speaker 2: Did you put any of your money into it? Speaker 1: Of course not, bro. You think I'm here to make money? What's going on? Not because, not for any particular reason. I was just, like, lazy. I didn't pay attention. So anyways, that pick has performed well. I don't think Ferrari's done well. I think Ferrari's down, like, 5%, so I'm better than you. You just stay quiet for a minute. Let me just do this segment here. You can give a pick that's bad after this. I was hanging out with somebody recently who's a guest on the podcast, super successful, like billionaire type of dude, and asked him two questions. One was, What would you be doing right now? What would be your AI play if you're just like young and broke, but like wanted to do something with AI? And he gave a pretty interesting answer to that, which is he's like, I would go into, he's like, I would go find a business owner who's built a successful book of business, like let's say it's in insurance or home mortgages or some nice industry, some juicy industry. And the owner kind of knows like, oh, I could probably benefit from AI in my company. Speaker 2: But who cares? Speaker 1: I'm 60. But I'm 60. I'm too old to actually figure this stuff out. And he's like, I would go to them. I would go to as many of those guys as I can and try to build up a relationship and be like, hey, I will do all of the work to use AI to cut our costs internally. Like, I can automate a bunch of processes and jobs and whatnot. Like, I can increase our accuracy and decrease our costs. And if I do that, like, can I carve – basically, will you carve me out 10% of this business if I successfully do it? I'll do it totally on contingency, but, like, here's the deal. And we can, like, measure the op-ex change that I'm going to make in this business if you just give me free reign for, you know, 12 months. It's the fastest way to kind of like own a piece. He's like, you know, and then I would try to, in that agreement, maybe create an option to buy the majority of the business at a fair value if I can pull that off. So I thought that was interesting on this first thing. Second thing he was talking about, he goes, He's like, yeah, he's like SpaceX. He's like, I just think it's unbelievable that people, that there's any counter-argument to SpaceX. He's like, SpaceX is the most defensible company in the history of humanity. Like, what's the second best SpaceX? Like, is there anybody? You know, like, there's so few companies that can even compete with SpaceX. Think about how monumentally difficult it would be to compete with SpaceX. Yeah, you've got to literally get into the rocket business. Not just the rocket business, the reusable rocket business. Not only that, but to do it and be competing for these giant government contracts. You have to successfully demonstrate safe launches over a period of time. At this point, SpaceX is so unbelievably defensible. He's like, I think it's the safest place to put money. And so I thought that was kind of interesting, just like generational defensibility and really the question of like, who is set up over the next 20 years Who just has an incredibly competitive position for the next 20 years? So I just took that frame and none of these names are unpopular, so I'm not giving you some obscure pick. But this is my honest take. I'm basically trying to get into all of these companies because I think over a 20-year period, I think all of these companies have a very A combination of they have a tailwind behind them, so the wind is in their sails of they're in the right place at the right time. Clearly, the industries they're in and the tech wave that they're surfing is the big tech wave that we're going to see play out over 20 years. Two, they don't have much competition, which was my case for the TKO stock pick also, because I was like, there's no competition to UFC and there's no competition to WWE. The number two MMA promotions, whether it's PFL, like Bellator, these were companies that were literally on the brink of bankruptcy. And they're not just in second place, they're literally 100 or 1,000 times smaller and behind. And because of the network effect, they have no chance to ever catch up. Speaker 2: They're a tens of billions of dollar company. And the second best one, they get in trouble for not being able to make payroll. Literally every... Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a rich guy's hobby, typically. Speaker 2: It's not even close. It's like LeBron versus the freshman team. It's not even in the same category. Speaker 1: And so when you're in that category of one, that's a pretty big deal. Plus, you have growth behind you. But the fact that there's just no competition, same thing with WWE. There's really no competition. To WWE, and of course, since then, they both signed major, major streaming deals, way bigger than people thought they would sign, like billion-dollar-a-year-plus streaming deals. Speaker 2: But what's this have to do with the first part of AI? Speaker 1: Oh, the AI part? That was separate. All right, so here's five other companies I think are extremely well-positioned. So the first is a company that I was wrong about. I owned the stock very early on, and I got so mad during the GameStop thing that I sold out of principle. I'm never going to let those stupid principles in my way again. Speaker 2: Principles are a bad way. They give you bad directions en route to making money. Speaker 1: Yeah, my big moral stand didn't seem to hurt this company. So Robinhood was the company. I owned the stock when it was like, I don't know, $5, $7, whatever it was, like really early on, like right when it IPO'd basically. And it was actually after the IPO, it kind of dipped or something. When the GameStop thing happened and they basically shut off the ability to buy but continue to let people sell GameStop, I was like, that is the most corrupt thing I've ever seen. Speaker 2: Same. Speaker 1: And it pissed me off so much that I was like, F these guys. I don't trust these guys. I'm out. Since then, they've just basically proceeded to build what's clearly Morgan Stanley for the next generation. So the tailwind behind Robinhood is the following. There's some like absurd amount of wealth. I don't know what it is like 20 trillion 50 trillion There's like some stupid number like with a trillion behind it of wealth That's just gonna get transferred from like the parent. You know boomers to Millennials or Gen Z over the next 20 30 years and And so the question is, as that money gets handed down, what will those people do with it? And it's pretty clear that if you're a Gen Z or you're a millennial, the platforms you trust and gravitate towards, the financial platforms you're already a user of when you have small check deposits, is Robinhood. And then they were like, great, we have crypto, we have 401ks, we have home mortgages, and we got credit cards. It's like, what else do you want? Speaker 2: Wait, they do all those? Speaker 1: They have prediction markets, which is a code word for sports betting and gambling. So you can gamble on there. You can buy crypto on there. You can buy stocks on there. You can buy fractional stocks of private companies. You can buy You can do all the margin trading and options trading if you want to get really degenerate. You can open up a 401K with them. You can get a Robinhood gold card, and you can use that as your credit card, and you get a home mortgage. It's like an unbelievable amount of financial products that they've rolled out all in one app. And it's basically this financial super app that Gen Z slash millennials are most comfortable with. And as the wealth transfer happens, they're going to be the beneficiary of that. So I think next 20 years, they're extremely well positioned. Speaker 2: So Austin Reif, the founder of Morning Brew, one of my closest buddies, he has been texting me for the past six months, maybe longer, to be honest. Speaker 1: Longer. He's been texting me too about this. In fact, he's the only reason I bought it. So I did buy it back again like maybe six months ago. I was about to have a call with him. And he had been talking about it, but he's kicking himself because he doesn't own any. But it was like his call. He was like, it's going to be great. I'm just waiting for a dip. The dip never came. And he doesn't own any of it. And it's basically ripped up like in a 5X, 7X since he's been like wanting to buy. Speaker 2: Yeah, he's been talking about it constantly. Speaker 1: I had a call with him, so before the call, I bought $100,000 of Robinhood stock just so I could get on the call as a Robinhood shareholder and be like, oh, thank you for the tip. And since then, it's up, you know, 30-40% also. He's responsible for my Robinhood conviction, even though he doesn't own any of it now. Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think his reasoning, I forget what it was exactly, or he had more than one point, but one of the points was like, Young people, and he owns a company called, or he did own Morning Brew, which probably had 200 employees, which a lot of them were like 23-year-old, like $100,000, $150,000 earning people, and he was like, my staff, that's the default. They all have 100% of their net worth in Robinhood, and that is only going to continue to grow, because they keep their money in there, and it's just going to keep on growing. This company is unstoppable. And he's been bragging about it or calling that for maybe a year and a half. And so he's absolutely nailed it. And I agree with you. I did not buy into that argument at all. I thought Robin Hood was silly. I thought on principle, I'm not on board with what these guys did. Speaker 1: You're more of like a Schwab type of guy. I feel like you want, when it comes to money, you want boring. You want like a bow tie. You want like, you know, a man with a briefcase is what you want. Speaker 2: You know, I potentially have a lot of money and I didn't want to keep it in an app. Like, to think I'm keeping it in an app was like, kind of, that's a little nerve-wracking. And like, the interface is so cute that I thought it was like, But they cared more about looks. I was like, I want the ugliest website that's got the biggest vault. Speaker 1: You didn't want to keep it in an app as if it's like a shoebox. Like, where do you think the money's kept in any of these? Like, if it was a website, that's better. What did you want? Speaker 2: I wanted the, like, forgot password button to be, like, hidden. Like, I didn't want someone to, like, I don't know. I just, it was too user-friendly. If it's too user-friendly to me, that means it's easily hackable. That was the issue, that it was too good. It's like you find good deals on Craigslist because you're finding something interesting that no one else uses. Robinhood scared me. Speaker 1: Honestly, I actually get what you're talking about. I actually felt similar. I was like, I don't want to keep huge amounts of money in this app. Speaker 2: But I did keep some. I had some money. I think I bought like crypto on it before. And like they for years, they did this thing where instead of giving you like Uber for your new ride, if you referred someone to a new ride, they give you $10. Robinhood had this amazing thing where you could like do a scratch off. You could pick option one, two or three, which obviously it's not actually one, two, three. It's all the same. And they would give you stock. I owned like $10 of Ford and that is now worth more because I did this right when they launched. I like Robinhood though as a company. I just Googled it. Is it true? Did they do $1.1 billion of profit on $3 billion in revenue? Speaker 1: Yeah, basically when interest rates went up, all of the financial service companies started printing money. Because now, all the money that they hold, they're able to, and the money that they lend out at high rates, but the money they hold, they're earning 4 or 5% on their float, which is pretty crazy. So they're very interest rate dependent right now. By the way, the criticism for all of these is that these are already popular. The valuation is crazy. Look at the fundamentals. Oh, Tesla, they need to sell this many crazy amount of cars in order to justify this or even self-driving and have to be bigger than Uber to just be where it's valued at currently, right? So your upside is priced in would be the counterargument. And by the way, I have no argument against that. I just think very simply, this has actually served me pretty well, which is like, I told you this story, in 2010, I was kind of like, These internet companies seem to be pretty dominant. Everybody uses them. Speaker 2: Let me get some of that. Speaker 1: I don't really know how to do discounted cash flows. I can't really tell you much about that, about the P-E ratios and any of that stuff. Speaker 2: I don't know. Speaker 1: That toothpaste is not going back in the bottle. Similarly, it's pretty obvious with some of these. Speaker 2: I like DatPartners. That's the name of your firm. Speaker 1: I like that. Speaker 2: Running my company, Hampton, it gives me the chance to meet with hundreds of different businesses, and I'm always surprised by how many of them still use spreadsheets, emails, and clunky tools that do not talk to each other. It's like watching someone build a house with duct tape. So here's my take. Custom software that actually fits your needs isn't just convenient, it's a competitive advantage to transform the way you do business. And that's why you need to know about a no-code platform called Bubble. With Bubble, you can build powerful web and mobile apps by literally dragging and dropping different elements on a screen, no coding required. By the way, I use Bubble on a ton of different apps, including Hampton. And if you want help building something complex on Bubble, you have to bring in Zerocode. They're the top Bubble agency out there and literally the biggest plugin creator for the platform. They can build anything, custom portals, SaaS products, and they do it about 10 times faster and cheaper than traditional development. Zerocode is also all about AI business automation, transforming manual and slow processes into efficient automated ones. So stop cobbling together different tools and solutions and head to zerocode.com. That's zero code as in the word zero and then code Q-O-D-E. Again, code is with a Q and tell them that Sam sent you. All right, what's the next one? Speaker 1: All right, let me just run through a couple of them. Coinbase is basically the same case, except what they have is, Coinbase has nine product lines that do over a hundred million dollars of revenue each. I thought that's a stunning, stunning statement. I can't believe how many different ways that they make a lot of money. I think crypto, basically it's like, I'm bullish on Bitcoin in general and crypto, and if you're bullish on crypto, The most trusted exchange that takes a fee on everybody's enthusiasm around crypto. They take a fee of every buy and every sell. That's a business that's going to do very well. And also, as now the government's pro-crypto, they're buying crypto, there's ETFs, it's in people's retirement accounts. Same thing. You can't put the toothpaste back in the bottle on that. Speaker 2: And that CEO is an animal. He's an animal. Speaker 1: And so I just think they're extremely, you know, well-positioned similarly for, you know, the future. Speaker 2: When it IPO'd, I never do this. I've only done this two or three times or something like that. I bought... Speaker 1: You jumped up and clapped? Speaker 2: I... Speaker 1: You clicked the heels. Speaker 2: Right after I purchased like a hundred grand worth of stock and I just looked at my, I just looked at it, I just made the money back. Now that it's like on a tear, it looks like I'm even now after I think four years or three years. Speaker 1: Alright the other two, again this is so cliche. I mean I almost didn't even want to do this segment but I do believe in this so like. Speaker 2: It's not cliche to me because I don't follow all this stuff so I think a lot of people won't find it totally cliche. Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, all right. Well, unfortunately, the YouTube comments aren't as forgiving and kind as you are. All right, so Tesla is the next one, which is basically, if you think about what are the next big industries to get unlocked, a combination of self-driving cars, it's gonna change the world, and then the robots. Now, the timescale is obviously the question here, but again, if you take a 20-year outlook, nobody's better positioned to do self-driving cars and robots than Tesla. And then I also think, by the way, he's going to end up merging XAI with Tesla. He's going to put it all together. Speaker 2: I don't understand that. I don't get that. I don't get that combo. Speaker 1: Why it would go together? Well, it's basically, one is an AI lab, and then all the future of Tesla is as an AI company. And if he's able to basically, like, Financially engineer his way into owning more Tesla by having Tesla buy XAI. He's also done this before with SolarCity where he bails out his own companies in a way, right? Speaker 2: I guess I get that. The way how Twitter has basically become AI, which is then a Tesla-owned thing, that's a wild journey. That's the wild part. I don't want to own any stock that Elon controls because he's a crazy person and I don't mind being I don't mind him being crazy. What I mind is when he tweets something, the stock changes. And so I'm like, well, what if he gets shot? Which is definitely not unreasonable. There has to be a 1% chance that he gets assassinated or a 1% chance that he dies doing something reckless. Speaker 1: Yeah, there's crazy E-man risk with him. Speaker 2: Yeah, it's too crazy. When he tweeted that Trump was a pedophile, did it go up or down? Did it move? Speaker 1: Yeah, it went down. Then it went back up. Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't have the stomach for that. Speaker 1: The stock trades in completely crazy ways in the short term. Like, don't be like, oh, we missed delivery estimates by a lot. Speaker 2: My bad. Speaker 1: And the stock's like up 10%. It's like, what? What's going on here? Speaker 2: It's weird, man. Tesla's too weird for me. Yeah, I'm too old school for that. But I do. I understand the argument. Speaker 1: I mean, again, the idea is like, We're going to have robots doing human labor. If you disagree with that, then you're wrong and we disagree. But if you realize that robots are going to do human labor and that human labor is the biggest market in the world, is the market for human labor, then the company that makes the robots that do the human labor is going to sell more. It's going to be like the iPhone. The iPhone was like this product that everybody in the world bought that sells billions and billions and billions of units. As soon as they have robots that can actually do functional work, they're going to sell billions and billions. There's going to be more robots than humans because why would you not? I'd be like, yeah, give me five of those guys to be doing shit around my house, my backyard, my factory, my warehouse, my whatever, right? As soon as that exists, then the question is, do you believe it will exist? Do you believe that Tesla can pull it off? Speaker 2: Yes. It's definitely worth betting that they will pull that off. Speaker 1: So once you go down the logic train of the biggest market in the world, human labor, we now have the technology wave happening where robots will be able to do that human labor. And if you had that, what would be the demand for that? Okay, pretty much the biggest demand we've ever seen for anything, ever. Okay, great. So let's go to the next one. Who is going to be able to do it? Who's well-positioned to do it? Tesla. Okay, great. So you go down that chain and you realize, okay, they're pretty well-positioned. Speaker 2: It's just hard. So I have a friend that joined OpenAI in, I forget exactly what year, but at the time, I think they were worth $30 billion. And he was debating, he's like, should I do this? Should I not do this? We all said the same thing, which is, wow, $30 billion, that's a lot of money. Is there any upside to this? Well, he joined. I believe he's made about $30 million. And as of now, the stock that he was granted back then, it is now worth $10 million a year. So every vest, it's something like $10 million. And he sold a little bit to where he's good. But we were talking the other day and we were like, this could definitely 10x again. Your grants could be $100 million a year. And it's very hard to overcome that To get to that conclusion, just because, not logic, because of emotion, you know what I mean? Speaker 1: Totally. The smartest investors I know, and the reason why I think there's merit to just having a very simple, simpleton model of investing is For most of the, I guess, if I look back at the last 10 years, I look back at a couple of the smartest investors I know, they always had a very two-sentence level of conviction and they sort of pointed out, they're like, hey, all you needed to do was BTC and chill. All you needed to do was Bitcoin and chill, right? When we sold to Amazon and we got our Amazon grant, it was like, okay, you own this much Amazon stock now. Guess what? I did all these side projects. I did all this other shit during the meantime. I, like, got up every day and went to work. All I needed to do was Amazon and chill. If you get a big enough lump sum, you just can let things compound. And so one of my friends, Zach, he has this phrase that basically every year there's one investment that's sort of like the power law. When Ozempic happened, he was like, oh, I think I just need to own the companies that are the Ozempic companies. And he's like, yep, that was the only thing that you needed to do. Ozempic was the investment theme of the year. You just had to recognize it and you had to take action on it. It didn't take like a literal genius to do it, right? You don't have to predict as epic. You didn't have to like be knee-deep in clinical trials six years ago. Like even if it just like after it happened, you just had to like understand what was actually happening. And by and hold, and like that was what you needed to do. And he basically has a list of every year. What's the one thing that mattered? What was the one deal that mattered? Speaker 2: I think he said one year it was like OnlyFans. Speaker 1: Yeah, one year he was like, it's OnlyFans this year. And I was like, OnlyFans? This was like before it was, this was actually I think in 2019. We've talked about it. We've talked about it. And we sold to Twitch and he texted me and he was like, OnlyFans, I believe, is gonna make more money than Twitch. I go, bro, Twitch is making like, and I shared with him, you know, I was like, Twitch is making a lot of money. He's like, I said what I said. Everything else is noise for me this year. I just need to figure out if I can get into OnlyFans. Speaker 2: Did he get it? Speaker 1: Yeah, he did. And so, you know, he's, you know, but I just really respect that level of thinking and that type thing. In fact, one of my friends who's like this, he came to, he came over to my house and he goes, Take two. Take two. What's take two? Speaker 2: Dude, your friends talk really strangely. Speaker 1: There's no connecting words. Speaker 2: It sounds like it was a Kramer. You just knocked on the door and said, take two. Speaker 1: I asked him, I'm like, what's the thing right now? Because he was the one who early on was just like, you need to have 100% of your net worth in Bitcoin. And he was just like, every day, he would just tell me this. And he would just tell me this every day. This is 2014, 2015, 2016. Every day, he's just telling me the same thing. And he would tell me exactly why, and he would write it, he wrote it down for me, and he just kept doing it. And because of it, I own more Bitcoin than I would have otherwise. So I didn't listen to him. I didn't do 100%, but I did listen to him. He was basically making a case why the company that makes Grand Theft Auto, he's like, Grand Theft Auto is coming, GTA 6 is coming out. And when it comes out, as of right now, the stock is a little depressed because the game has been delayed for multiple years. He's like, the game is going to come out. And when the game comes out, it's going to be the biggest selling game ever. There's no competition. He uses all these economics words, some word for there are no substitutes. Like, there's no substitute for GTA. Speaker 2: Yeah, he was using words like elastic or something. Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Speaker 2: So he's like, you know, rubber bands are stocks, bro. Speaker 1: He's like, you know, a great investment has these like six properties and like, you know, here's the six properties and I'm like, and Grand Theft Auto fits all those? He's like, yes. And so, that's like, you know, his big piece. This is what he was saying a year ago. It's already up like 30% or something since he told me this. And he would lay out to, whatever, there's more to that story. I can't share here. It's that type of thinking that's like, I don't know, it's very attractive to me. I fall, I get seduced by that level of that type of thinking very easily and obviously I'm cherry picking like, you know, things that worked. I'm sure there's... If I really thought about it, I'm sure I have a bunch of smart friends who fell in love with random single securities that didn't do anything. I'm not saying this is like a foolproof thing. Speaker 2: Dude, whenever we talk about this, I start thinking, I would be like the Warren Buffett thing where I'm like, well, I just don't understand it, so I'm going to stick to that thing, which is a really novel way of saying like, you know, whatever, I'm not doing it. And then I started thinking about this recently where I was like, well, it's been eight years. Maybe I should learn about it. Speaker 1: Maybe that circle of confidence needs to expand a little bit. Speaker 2: Like six months ago, I went and bought a book on it and like started reading it. And I was like, Oh, yeah, yeah. I wish I would have read this a long time ago. This book was published, like, years ago. What am I doing? Well, I don't know it. I don't understand it. So I'm not going to do it. But that's been eight years. Yeah, I should have read ways sooner. What's the fourth company? Speaker 1: OpenAI is one of them, but I think that's the most controversial one because I think they, you know, there's so much competition. Who knows? And I just was thinking, like, who else is uniquely positioned on a 20-year timescale Where they have the winds of technology behind their back. So they're in the right space where like clearly they're sitting in the lane where the highest velocity of like, you know. Of change and sort of upside is, but then also that they have a unique defensibility. Well, they will actually capture it. I think SpaceX is uniquely defensible. I think Coinbase is uniquely defensible. I think Tesla is uniquely defensible. None of these things are like, you know, completely foolproof. Of course, like, you know, there are competitors. I'm not saying that. But I just think like on the sliding scale of defensibility, it's very, very hard to compete with any of those companies because they've built up These durable, durable moats, right, like whether it's regulatory moats, whether it's brand, whether it's network effect, whether it's like hard, you know, hard technical, you know, technical things that, you know, take years for other people to catch up to, but then by then they're on the next generation. Speaker 2: Dude, I wonder, like, this is total, like, the bro science of financial investing, but I don't look into, like, I don't really read about the fundamentals of certain companies. And the only few times that I've bought an individual stock, it's been mostly because the founder, the entrepreneur behind it. And so when we hung out with Mario, the guy who started Oscar Health, he explained a little bit about Oscar. And I was like, okay, it's a health insurance company, but I don't really know anything else. But you're really inspiring. And so I bought a little bit of that. And then the first one was Atlassian. I read an article about Atlassian and their office. I don't know if you remember this, but my office was at Where was it? It was in Soma. And their office was like on the street of my office, The Hustle. And I used to like look in their office and I was like, wow, I love the interior design of your office. And I read a little bit about the founders and they seemed really smart. And I bought, I think $1,000 worth of it because I didn't have any money. And I think it turned into 50 grand. I think it like 50x'd. And so both of the times that they've made money, it's literally just been because the founder was interesting to me. Total bro science. I don't even know what Atlassian does to this day. They make software, but I don't know what software. Speaker 1: They make Australian software, I think. Speaker 2: They say words like schedule instead of schedule. Like, you know, it's a scheduler. I don't know what a schedule is. But it's been like, that's kind of been like an interesting way. It just seems like someone has willed something into existence and the cool factor. So for example, Palantir. I'm pretty sure they're trading at like 200 times revenue or something like that. And I have to imagine there's got to be some research on what the Alex Karp like cool factor adds to that multiple. Speaker 1: Yeah, these become cults. Like there's enough like There's enough sort of like retail energy now where these things become cults. Like right now, they're trying to make it happen for Opendoor. I don't know if you've paid attention to this. Speaker 2: I have. I have. I've seen Opendoor. I don't understand why there's, what's, who's the cult leader behind, like what, why do people care about Opendoor? Speaker 1: It's kind of pop and it's like this guy Eric Jackson and others. I mean, I don't know. I'm not too far in it. I stay away from the like, you know, everybody's got their vices. Meme stocks is not one that does it for me. So fortunately, I don't get sucked into that. Speaker 2: So your buddy was like, I should just pick one stock and go all in. If there's one skill set that you should go all in, honestly, like I learned it a little bit with Hermosi, and we've seen it time and time again. But like, becoming a very charismatic person that knows how to talk to the masses is obviously the answer. That's the skill set that you have to learn. We're going to talk a little bit about how to manipulate people. I think Rob the Bank, who you had on a while ago, he talked about some book. He's like, I don't even want to say the name of this book. He teed it up perfectly. I think you did the same. He's like, there's just one book on how to manipulate people. I don't even want to say the name. It's just too powerful and I don't want the price to go up. Do you remember when he said that? Speaker 1: Maybe. Did he say it on our podcast or somewhere else? Speaker 2: Yes. Or maybe he said it on... I started following him after you had him on and he said something like that and I went and read it and I'm like, yeah, you're right. This is the skill that everyone should learn. Screw products. Screw being smart with AI. Speaker 1: What is it? I want to know now. Speaker 2: I'm not going to say. I'll tell you after. Speaker 1: Robert Greene, they say this about his book, right? 48 Laws of Power. Like, I think one of the, like, marketing schticks, which I don't know if he completely made up or is true. And then he used it to, like, to market his book. But it was this book is banned from prisons because because they don't want the prisons to like the prisoners to be able to, like, overtake. It's so powerful that it's banned in prisons is just perfect marketing. That's like the COD level marketing. Speaker 2: I have it somewhere in my Goodreads that I'll find it, but I don't even remember the title if I'm being honest. Speaker 1: Okay, so you think I should go all in on Struggles in Manipulation or what? Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we kind of do that already. I'm just saying go all in. Yeah, just be better. Just do what you're doing now, but better. Is that it? Is that the pod? Yeah, that's it. Unknown Speaker: I feel like I can rule the world. I know I can be what I want to. I put my all in it like no days off on the road. Speaker 1: All right, let's take a quick break because, as you know, we are on the HubSpot Podcast Network, but we're not the only ones. There's other podcasts on this network, too, and maybe you like them. Maybe you should check them out. One of them that I want to draw your attention to is called Nudge by Phil Agnew, and whether you're a marketer or a salesperson and you're looking for the small changes you can make, the new habits you could do, the small decisions you could make that will make a big difference, that's what that podcast is all about. Speaker 2: Check it out. Speaker 1: It's called Nudge, and you can get it wherever you get your podcasts.