The Secret to Longevity: Building Trust and Overcoming Skepticism with James Loomstein | Ep #758

The Secret to Longevity: Building Trust and Overcoming Skepticism with James Loomstein | Ep #758 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Smart Agency Masterclass, a decade of interviewing the smartest agency owners all over the world to show you how to start, scale, and possibly sell your agency one day. I have a question for you. Are you tired of being stuck in the daily grind but you're scared to let go and really drive real growth because you don't know how? Now, it's time to break out of that rut and I want you to level up. I want you to join me and a select group of like-minded incredible agency owners for Elevate. Now, this just isn't another networking event. It's your chance to really transform into the leader and the agency CEO you've always wanted to be. Elevate is a place where you're going to make meaningful connections with other top-tier agency leaders who are openly sharing their game-changing strategies to really help gain clarity and boost your confidence while fostering relationships that will last beyond the event. Head over to elevatemyagency.com and grab your spot so you can level up. Go to elevatemyagency.com now. Unknown Speaker: Hey James, welcome to the show. Speaker 1: It is great to be here, Jason. Thanks for having me. Speaker 2: Excited to have you on. So tell us who you are and what does your agency do? Speaker 1: Sure. So I am the managing partner of Rogue Marketing. We are here in Dallas, Texas. Serve mostly the mid market, largely B2B across the country. Everything from healthcare to manufacturing to AI actually has been a couple of places and a couple of data warehouse companies. I would characterize Rogue as we're an agency, but I wouldn't say quote unquote an agency. We are actually more like business builders helping our clients achieve a specific outcome, whether that's they want to move into a new market, whether they are seeking to be acquired, whether they want to launch a new product, but there is some sort of outcome that they are focused on that is going to move their business forward. Yes, we do the quote unquote tactical things. Websites, creative content, analytics, et cetera. But if somebody came to us and said, Hey, build me a website. That's not really what we do. We can do it. But if they said, Hey, I want to do one of those things, then that's a conversation. They are trying to achieve something. They're trying to move their business forward. And those are the problems that we seek to solve. Speaker 2: Cool. And how'd you guys get started creating an agency? Speaker 1: So I grew up in the, let's call it Omnicom world. After grad school and way back in the day, almost 20 years ago, actually over 20 years ago, I really wanted to work in marketing and coming out of college, like that was the thing I wanted to do. And in the early 2000s, I quickly found that I didn't start in agency world. I started in consulting world. And you couldn't move from consulting world to agency world. And the only way to do that was to move back, right? To start at the $20,000, $25,000 a year job. And another way you could go is through a graduate program, or if you had an MBA, you could kind of enter a little different. And I knew I wanted to go back to school. I got my MBA in marketing and strategy. I quickly learned that the people I was competing with, At the end of the program, we were going to have the same piece of paper. And I went to SMU here in Dallas. So a lot of the people in my program were Frito-Lay, American Airlines, Southwest, Kimberly Clark, and they were going to be like brand managers. And we have the same piece of paper, but they already had the experience. So that was sort of my first purvey into agency world. So I started my own. And I started a little company called Freestyle Marketing, literally named after like NBA 2K video game or something like that. And I was just looking for stories. I was looking for projects. I was looking to like keep building. And I took those. I ended up working at an internship at a bigger company here in Dallas called IMC Square. And then when I graduated, I was able to move into Omnicom and I started a company called agency.com. I was a business analyst. And then... Speaker 2: You had the domain name agency.com? Speaker 1: There was an agency called agency.com. Yep. Speaker 2: Oh, nice. Speaker 1: And I was a business analyst. I worked on the strategy team. And then ended up moving into like another agency. I worked at TargetBase. I worked on the P&G account. I worked for a company called Directive that was, you know, later bought by Meredith, MXM and worked on Kia. And then, you know, after the 08 economy, 09, 010, I had been through the agency world and I was realizing, I'm like, the only way to move up was to move out. And it seemed like everything was on this like three year turn, right? Like you'd work at an agency for two or three years, and then they'd move you to the next thing or you had to move up to move out. And I didn't want to do anymore. And I really had that entrepreneurial spirit. I felt like I was doing a good job on my own and I started a company called Digital Space and over the next four years was able to move up in types of clients, move up in types of responsibility and ended up at this company called Crown. We're partners and they had a guy who was in charge of, let's call it like the digital side and they needed somebody with my skillset. So at the time I was, you know, good at SEO. I was good at Facebook ads. I was good at analytics. I was really good at research. If someone said they could do all those things now, I'd be like, you're lying. But back then, like you could be good at all this stuff. And so a couple of, maybe a year or two later, he ended up leaving. I ended up leaving. And kind of felt like we were better together. So that guy was Chip. He was my business partner now. He had an agency called Rogue. I had an agency called Digital Space. We were We were doing projects. We were using each other's freelancers, right? And the only person winning there was kind of the IRS, just flipping checks back and forth to each other. And so we were better together. So officially brought our agencies together in 2016. We have been together for probably a year or two at the time. And we've been off to the races ever since. This is our eighth year. And I'm running an agency, trying to grow, do all the things, put the right processes in place, have great operations, and just kind of grow and scale this agency, growth marketing. Speaker 2: What's been the biggest challenge so far in growing the agency? Speaker 1: The biggest challenge so far in growing agency is finding a way to stay consistent. And I think we do this where you kind of pass that mark of, we're going to say no to these types of projects, or we're going to say no to these types of clients. They are a distraction. And so when you start, like everyone who's out there just starting an agency, it's so easy to say, yes, we do that. And when you do that, the only person kind of winning there is either the client or the freelancer that you hired because you're just funding their lifestyle, right? And so saying no to specific types of deliverables or specific types of projects, I think staying on that road is probably the hardest thing. And then I think the other thing is the persona of marketing in the mid-market. I think a lot of mid-market companies have been burned by agencies, have been disappointed with the results they didn't get. The expectations of what quote unquote marketing is supposed to provide them, I think is an illusion and they get stuck and frustrated. And so literally I probably spend half of my time I'm either apologizing for my industry or trying to figure out like what's the problem you're trying to solve. Because when someone says they have a marketing problem, sometimes it's not actually a marketing problem. It's something else like in the system that's broken. And that's probably the biggest hurdle, I would say. Speaker 2: There's so many people out there that I have created an agency, kind of failed at it, and then created a course to how to start an agency and go live on the beach and have this nomad lifestyle. And it's created so much shit in the market, it's kind of very hard to see who's worth a damn. Like, I mean, I was even interviewing an agency not too long ago to do social media for us, to do ads. And their marketing was horrible. The whole goal was like, hey, you help people out with social media. And I go, what about your account? And they're like, oh, well, we don't get business off of it. What do you mean? Well, we, our president really believes in personal branding. So I'm like, oh, so if I go to his account, so I went to his account. They're like, well, we don't have time to do that. I'm like, all right, come on guys. What's my process going to look like after? And, and it's really pretty frustrating, but I think it does go back to what you were saying, kind of staying disciplined and doing the work, you know, like I always tell people, like if someone was going to be paying you on performance only, who would you do it for? And what service would you do for them? Speaker 1: 1,000%. Here's two issues. One. There's no bar to get into our industry. At least in law or accounting or medicine, there's a bar, right? Half of all doctors graduate in the bottom half of their class, but they're still doctors and they still took a test to elevate and get past there. In our world, you read a couple of headlines on Mashable or your Feedly account, all of a sudden you're a social media expert. And then when you have to do that for a business, most people didn't go to business school. They don't understand the operational side of like growth and where growth comes from and how to actually move things forward. And so what happened is a lot of these companies get frustrated, not by the results, but they see activity. Activity is easy. We can all be super busy, but like how did it actually impact and move forward? And I think the other thing is like when someone's starting an agency, I actually think you should go work for an agency or corporate America. Like I might crap on corporate America a lot, but at the end of the day, they teach so much. They are such a good training ground, like operations, process, SOPs, This is who does what, this is how we delegate. And if you're not around that world, or you don't work with midsize companies or enterprise companies, and yet you're trying to solve their problems, you can't sit in their seat and see what they see. Like you see activity, you're like, Oh, we're gonna do some Facebook, we're gonna create a video, we got your new website landing page out, or we sent out some emails. And yet, you can't see it because you've never been in it. It's not your fault. But you can't sit and see the world the way they see the world. And so that's where these companies get stuck and frustrated. They try and hire the right people. But there's a talent problem there too. It's hard to find the right talent. Speaker 2: Hi there, agency owners. Let me ask you, are you ready to scale your agency without increasing your overhead costs? If yes, then you need to know about E2M Solutions. Now, E2M is the number one most reliable white label partner for agencies. They specialize in web design, WordPress development, e-commerce, SEO, and content writing. They basically do all the heavy lifting, which frees you up to focus on growing your agency. Now, here's the best part. E2M is just not another vendor. With over 10 years of experience, their team of over 300 experts has a track record of delivering for more than 300 agencies. They're your strategic partner. They deliver on time every time, so you can focus on what you do best. Now, E2M's mission is simple, to help 500 agencies increase their revenue and profit margins with white label services that actually work. And to help you get started, they're offering a special deal, 10% off for the first three months. But act fast because it's only a limited time offer. So head over to e2msolutions.com slash Smart Agency to check out their transparent and their flexible pricing. Trust me, if you're ready to grow without burning out, e2m is the partner you've been looking for. That's e2msolutions.com slash Smart Agency. Go check them out and tell them Jason Swenk sent you. When I was interviewing a lot of these agencies to become a client of theirs, I literally had to stop them and be like, look, your sales process is horrible. You're trying to pitch marriage right off the bat, this huge retainer. You haven't built any trust. You haven't asked any questions. You've been talking about your awards and your process. Barely, or your awards most and how cool your people are. And I go to your website, you show me your dogs and how many coffees you drink. And I'm like, look, why don't you do this? Like I even read an article from AdAge and the big agencies are actually starting to do this. Finally, they're actually starting to use a foot in the door. They're coming up with some kind of small paid strategy engagement. We're these clients can test them out. They can work together. They can build something together in order to build trust in order to get to figure out what's the biggest problem. Because like you said, most prospects that come to an agency, they think they have a problem, but they really don't know what the root problem is. So if you can help And we're here to show them what the real problem is. And that's totally opposite than everyone else. Like they're going to look at you and be like, Oh man, like I really like this agency. Yeah. Speaker 1: So we call it a call it marketing malpractice. Kind of like in medical malpractice. I wrote an article a couple of years ago and it's still literally relevant today is to sit there with a client and have a one hour conversation and feel like you understand every part of their business and then turn around and put a statement of work with a $5,000, $10,000, $20,000 retainer in front of them for a year is disingenuous At best and where they need to focus. Like if I was an agency and I was just starting off to your point, I'd be like, what is something we can take off your plate? What is one small area specifically with a focus that has an outcome to achieve? And it might be super small, but at the end of that, you have a story to tell. You solved a problem. You have built some trust and you have found a way to move forward. When people are choosing an agency, most agencies think that they're competing against other agencies. Like they're not. They're competing against inaction. They're competing against, yeah, it's broken, but it's not that bad. So we're just going to kick the can down the curb, like down the wall, down the road. And am I going to get fired for this? Right? Like the old adage, nobody got fired for bringing an IBM. But if we bring in Bob or Ryan or Molly to solve the same problem and it doesn't work out, I'm going to get fired. And so when you're sitting there working with a client, I don't care if it's a small company or a bigger one, there's a high likelihood that they don't want to move forward. It's not you. It's that they don't know what that outcome is. They don't know what they're going to be able to say we did at the end of this. And they might get fired for it. And they don't want to do that. So it's just easier not to deal with the problem. Speaker 2: Well, the other thing, too, I think people need to think about is you're saving your client the time, the time to figure it out, the time to hire, the time to do it. And this is a good exercise for all of you to think about. At the end of the day, if you're producing results for your clients, But are you saving your clients time? Because if your clients are constantly give barking orders at you and telling you what to do, you're replaceable. The client can always find someone better, faster, and cheaper. So are you saving them time? Are you driving results? Are really the two questions. Like when I hire an agency to do work for us, I'm like, First, are you going to give me results like the specific results I want? And are you going to save me time? Because if I have to manage you and constantly look over your shoulder, which I've had to in a lot of your work, a lot of, Oh my God, like, please prove your stuff. Like, and, and I'm a hypocrite too. Like I do my stuff, but. You know, I'm still horrible at grammar. Like you can tell the name that I wrote. Speaker 1: So there's a couple of things in there. I think time is number one. People will always trade time for convenience. They will always make that and whatever you can do that saves somebody time. That takes pressure off them, that moves them forward, the better off you are. And if you are a small agency, if you're just starting out finding a way to identify, yes, we're going to have our right target audience, right? We're going to figure out what's the fundamental marketing problem we're going to solve for you. But after that, and you get through and you start working on a project, clearly define the deliverables. Like what are we being graded on? And if they can't tell you what you're being graded on, then they're not a good project. And this isn't the right fit. Like that's where kind of turning the work down comes in. And my goal is that, hey, we're going to do this. You're going to pay us. And we've actually moved away from the quote unquote classic retainer because what ends up happening is everyone loves their agency in month one, two, and three, month eight, nine, and 10. They're like, yeah, we're getting stuff, but it's not that great. And then month 12 is like, what am I paying you 10 grand for? Oh, remember all that stuff we did in month one, two, and three? Where are we over delivered? Like, yeah, like, well, that's not my problem anymore. And so it just becomes this like constant churn that that happens in this, you know, agency versus client game. And it's worse at the small companies, the midsize companies. It's even worse when it's a small business owner and it's their money. It's a little better when it's a bigger company and quote-unquote isn't their money. Like it might be their budget, but it's not like we're not going on vacation this year if this doesn't work. And finding how you navigate that world from small business owner to mid-market to enterprise, it's just different at each one. You can't come in like, we should get married tomorrow. Speaker 2: Yeah, you gotta do things in stages. There's a framework for it. I want to tell everybody, if you guys have liked this episode so far, I've created a resource many years ago that tens of thousands of agency owners have paid over $1,600 for, and I want to give you access to the first three systems, which are the foundational systems. And it goes back to what James and I have been talking about around getting clarity of who you're going after, where you're going after, and then how to position your agency in a way where you stand out, you look different, who's your niche, all this. And then the third system is the offering. What's the right offering in the right order and what you should be charging and how to increase your pricing. Once you have that, then you can move on to the prospecting, sales and delivery and profit. So if you guys want access to those first three systems, just go to swenk.com and I give you access to this for free. I used to charge for this. People are like, you're crazy. But I'm like, there's so much help that people need. I was like, I want to give that to you. So make sure you go to swenk.com. And check that out. James, this has been a lot of fun coming on the show. Thanks so much for sharing your journey and giving your perspective. And I like the marketing malpractice. I need to kind of borrow that and think about what I can actually do for you. Well, awesome. Well, thanks so much, James, for coming on the show. And until next time, have a Swenk day.