The Reason Your Marketing Funnel Sucks (And How to Fix it)

One of the biggest things I realized is that yeah, there's no such thing as internet marketing. There's marketing and then there's the internet. >> I went really deep in PT Barnum's life. These dudes from the 1800s probably understood marketing more than we do because they had much less distribution. There's so much distribution and it's so easy to reach people at volume that the marketing skill I think kind of went down. >> Yes. >> If you can nail the hook, the funnel's easy. What most entrepreneurs do when they get in the marketing seat is they make the hook be about their offer. It's too early to talk about your offer. It's too early to talk about your origin story. What the story is about is the customer. When you can describe the customer's problem better than they can themselves, it is immediately assumed that you have the best solution. >> You're watching Marketing Misfits with Norm Ferrar and Kevin K. Senora Ferrar. How are you doing, man? Good to see you again. It's been a been a minute. Yeah, you know, and I love it when you talk Italian to me when I >> I'm trying. It's better than my French. I mean, if I All right. All right. >> My my French accent, I leave that to Mark Dawn, you know? I leave him when he gets drunk. That's his that's his thing. So, I don't want to step on anybody's trademark or, you know, uh or anything. >> But with Mark, it's just like a single language. >> Exact Exactly. Exactly. >> Man, I I tell you what, you know, I'm excited about today's uh guest. You know, we've had his wife uh on on the on the show before she was his wife, actually. Right. R right before she was his wife because they did a a a badass wedding thing where they they turned it into like a little mastermind and stuff. And uh and I've seen this guy speak a couple times. I saw him speak at the internet marketing party in Austin and I saw him speak at Gohigh Level uh event called Level Up. Um and uh he's got some interesting takes and a and a cool background. I think uh this is going to be for you misfits out there. That includes you too, Norm. This is going to be a good episode, I think. >> Yeah. Well, it's always a good episode, but you know, one of the things that I think you didn't put enough emphasis on is the wedding. So, The Wedding made national news. I saw it up here in Canada. >> So, this was >> It was on Fox News. >> Yeah. Was on Fox, whatever. >> But it was it was fantastic. Like I just when I first heard about it, I didn't know that that you knew the couple and I'm sitting there talking to you saying this is crazy. What a like why didn't somebody think about the wedding? And I won't get into it right now, but we'll get into it one of the rabbit holes we'll go down. >> Yeah, that was a that's definitely a misfit if if there's ever a misfit that's thinking outside the box, and that's exactly what uh what we want here on the show. So, you want to get into it? >> Absolutely. So, I'll bring on my or our our guest right now, Steve Larson, Mr. Larson. Where are you? Oh, I got to hit the button. >> What's up? >> What's up, man? How you doing? >> How you doing? >> Good. Good. >> Good. I'm so glad to be here. >> Now, I got to ask you right off the bat, your shirt. Every time I see you, this is your branding. you know, everybody's Steve Jobs had his uh his little t-shirts and and you've always you're always in the capitalist pig shirt every time I've seen you. Uh what is explain that for people that might not understand what's the what's the importance of that to you? Yeah, you know, uh it was back in uh 2018 I started noticing that um companies where the founder is the brand um those businesses can take off quickly but very very quickly also can be hindered by the fact that the attractive character is the business. And so I was like, I need to develop a brand that is not me. Um that is strong and um can be something where people say I'm that also rather than I'm also Steve Larson because that's impossible. We're all individuals. And so um I was like I need to come up with a brand that really rocks the boat. And um it was actually from the book uh you guys know the book Animal Farm. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Right. He talks about the different economic systems using a farm as an analogy and the sheep were the socialists because they all moved together and didn't think for themselves. And the pigs were the capitalists because they are individuals, very individualistic and problem solvers. And so it's so funny, man. The first time someone called me a capitalist pig, I thought that they were giving me a compliment and I didn't realize until later. I was like, I think that guy was trying to be a jerk, you know? And and so I was like, I'm going to put that on my shirt. Like, yeah, I'm a capitalist pig. Capitalism is not the problem, it's the user, you know. So, um yeah, it's our brand and we sold tons of these things and the I actually got to give one of these to RFK um a few months ago. >> Oh, wow. >> And I I wrote out this pledge and it's five points of capitalism and um I said, "Sir, I'm only allowed to give you this shirt if you agree to these five points." And there it's basically don't be an idiot is kind of what you know, use these powers for good is kind of what it is. Um uh and he's like I'll treasure this forever, you know. And so I've been going around and challenging different leaders to practice the good kind of capitalism. Um so we keep it cool in America cuz you know it's kind of under attack. So that's why I wear it. >> What are the five points? >> Yeah. It's funny. You're going to put me on the spot right now. Let me pull them up. Um >> you can make it up. Got >> No, no, no, no. Let me let me pull it up right now. Um I did have it memorized, but Let me pull it up here. >> That's cool that you did that though. >> Yeah, it was a lot of research, you know, um and uh went deep into, you know, Adam Smith and um uh really the the genesis of capitalism cuz I get people a lot of times that say like we should just throw capitalism out and do the trade system. And I was like, just think about that for like 3 seconds and you realize it's dumb. Cuz if I need tires and you're hungry, you know, but I have food and you don't know how to fix a tire, we already can't trade. It's like money is necessary as a medium value. And so it's like, >> well, there there's the barter system. I I don't I don't know if you have that in the States, but in Canada, you can set up this barter network, right? And you could tra just trade things for points. And it's a little bit weird, >> but you know, this is still the medium, right? Like points. Yeah. >> But it's kind of weird the way things are going right now where and this has happened for years. But why is capitalism such a taboo word? >> I think it's literally because people just don't know what it is and they associate it with I believe what Hollywood has indoctrinated us with personally. You know, I'm not trying to throw rocks, but it's just the reality. The school system doesn't teach entrepreneurship. It teaches employee mindhood, you know, mindset. And so I I I believe the system is designed to make us be workers in someone else's kingdom. Um and so yeah, why not demonize? I mean, literally every bad guy in all the H, you know, >> every movie >> Yeah. is is some rich dude and it's like every movie. >> Yeah. >> Um Yeah. So the five points of capitalism for I call it the capitalist pledge and I it's five points. Point number one is to follow the law of self-interest but you use it to fulfill the needs of others in exchange for personal value. So sol solving problems for profit is one of our mottos. Um the second tenant is that we champion innovation, competition and creativity are fuel for valuable solutions. So capitalism is just about problem solving. Number three is we uphold ethical responsibility and that empathy and virtue guide the moral behavior of the individual. Um we can't give morals and ethics and our own compass to the government. It does come down to the individual and I think the problem with capitalism is when we start to outsource what is legal versus what is right. Right? And uh so it comes down to the individual's own personal code of ethics. Uh number four is to support sustainable growth. We balance expansion with the prudent use of resources. Um, and then number five is to maintain the wealth. So once you get rich, don't be an idiot, right? Actively get rich and then you actively look for ways to give back using wealth as a force for good. And so I tell them if you agree to this, put the shirt on, take a picture with it, post it, and claim it. And um, that's the pledge. >> Hey, Norm, you'll love this, man. I talked to a seller the other day doing 50k a month, but when I asked them what their actual profit was, they just kind of stared at me. >> Are you serious? That's kind of like driving blindfolded. >> Exactly, man. I told them you got to check out Sellerboard, this cool profit tool that's built just for Amazon sellers. It tracks everything like fees, PPC, refunds, promos, even changing cogs during using FIFO. >> Aha. But does it do FBM shipping costs too? Sure does. That way you can keep your quarter 4 chaos totally under control and know your numbers because not only does it do that, but it makes your PPC bids. It forecasts inventory. It sends review requests and even helps you get reimbursements from Amazon. Now, that's like having a CFO in your back pocket. You know what? It's just $15 a month. But you got to go to sellerboard.com/misfits. sellerboard.com/misfits. And if you do that, they'll even throw in a free two-month trial. >> So, you want me to say go to sellerboard.com misfits and get your number straight before your accountant loses it? >> Exactly. >> All right. >> Why do you think the US is is the the number one capitalist society in the world? What do you think that's made that where this is the land of, you know, opportunity and people from a lot of people from like Latin America think you can just come here and just pick up dollar bills off the sidewalk as you're walking down the sidewalk and but if you're willing to work and put it in here, you can make it here. But you compare that to Europe, a whole different culture and a whole different mindset on entrepreneurs or other places in the world. What do you think as part of this capitalism that actually creates that and and fosters that here? I think that there's laws that protect the ability to innovate. Like you're here, you're you're a little more free to fail, which also means you're more free to succeed. Um, and that that's part of why I mean, if you want to take over anyone's beliefs, just change the stories they consume. You know, story is what upholds belief. You take anyone who stops like a religious person, they stop reading scripture, their belief starts to fall, the stories got removed. It's the same thing that's happening in America is what we're seeing and I think everyone's seeing is that the narratives and the stories being pushed are very anti- innovation, very anti- go think for yourself, anti, you know, and very pro just pay me universal income, you know, very pro let's just make the government larger. I'm not anti- the government at all, but um you know, it's still a for the people thing. And when that gets flipped, that's the issue. you know, in Canada. I I live up in uh in Ontario. Uh it's it's kind of scary like to become a business person or to become a entrepreneur. All odds are against you. At least here in Canada. I mean, you've got all the risk more so than what you have in the States. You fail, you fail a lot harder. Like you'll fall hard and uh there's no empathy, you know? It's just uh you're just another business guy who failed, went bankrupt. Like I forget what the bankruptcy rate was a few years ago, but it was crazy uh hearing that over five years 90% of businesses fail. It's nuts. Well, it's it's similar in the States, too. I mean, yeah, it's it's very sim similar here. I mean, but but speaking speaking of fail failing, I mean, you've you were in uh with Clickfunnels or something, right, for a while, weren't you like uh uh failing and with with some funnels and then fixing other people's failed funnels and other people's failed businesses and something like 400 funnels or something that you've uh helped create o over the time? Yeah, I think it's closer to 800 now. But I um I yeah, I was I think employee 12 over there at ClickFunnels and um loved it. Sat right next to Russell. I was this personal funnel builder. Um and it was funny to be in the room when we were like, I think this Click Funnels thing has taken off. We should stop doing all these other projects and just go grow the whole thing. And so we grew it to 60,000 users in like a year. and um which is nuts. Uh and then at I always knew I would never stay there and so did he and so I left in 2017 and went and kept doing similar skills for just different businesses. Yeah. And then I later went back as the CMO of ClickFunnels for a brief period of time to just install processes. Um but uh yeah the the capitalism banner is like the overall mission and then the business underneath is kind of how we push it. >> And we talk to a lot of uh entrepreneurs uh especially when we go to events and they a lot of the newer ones don't have any clue about a workable funnel. So, can you tell us I'm I'm just curious the simplest form of a funnel? Like what would you recommend for new sellers just to get started just to understand without over complicating it? >> I know I kind of said this, you know, Kevin, when you were in uh in the audience there last week, but I think the biggest issue people have with funnels is they don't really know what they are and so it makes this impossible target. Um, we call them sales funnels, not marketing funnels, for a very strong reason. Um, sales funnels, I mean, we know I I think people just need to realize like, how do you measure when someone gets a sale? Like, it's pretty easy. You collect cash. But I when I used to have all these sales guys, you know, I'm in my studio right now on the other side of this wall, 12 full-time salespeople. I mean, the number one thing that I was asking for more of is phone calls. Like, I need more leads. And there's a big reason the sales department isn't the one going out and doing that. It's completely different mentality. And so square one, the biggest reason people mess up funnels is they think it's a marketing function and it's not at all. Marketing is what happens before page one of the funnel. The salesunnel is really just there as like a catcher mitt. And so marketing's job is to present and get leads and get people to raise their hand and go, "What? Tell me more. I'm interested. What the tell your product is that?" And it's at that moment personally where I visualize that it's like the marketing department out on the internet is like I got someone we got we got someone who's interested and the lead gets handed to the sales department on page one of the funnel and that's where the handoff is. And so where people mess up just a common pattern is that they're like I built a funnel therefore I should be done and it's like you just got started and the salesunnel should have the same expectation as a salesperson. Um, but something still has to do with the lead generation and it's not really what funnels are meant for. And they obviously work together, but if you kind of separate it in your mind, it's a lot easier. Um, the easiest way to think about a funnel is when I was a door to door sales guy, I I actually was the funnel. You know, I had a message and I had an offer and I would get the leads by walking door to door. The marketing action was doortodoor. The funnel was me literally saying the message and dropping a pitch. And so like Click Click Funnels did not vent funnels, you know. Um, all a funnel is is an automated message and offer. And so you see these people who don't have a strong offer and wonder why their funnel doesn't work. It's like, well, that's square one. And then the second issue is they don't have a strong sales message. And then the third issue is they use the sales message in the marketing department and they're totally different scripts. If I use a sales methodology in a marketing seat, it comes off as pushy. And that's when you hear people, I don't want to be annoying. I'm like, then don't be. But you're identifying this the square issue, which is that that marketing is a different kind of messaging than sales message writing. And people will take sales intended scripts and use them on Facebook. And it's like, well, that's why the conversions are low. That's why you have no traffic. It's a totally different type of copy. >> I've heard you say there's no such thing as internet marketing. There's marketing and then there's the internet. Can you can you explain that? >> Yeah. Um, I don't know how much backstory you want to this like five years ago, I got really obsessed with these rich dead marketers like from the 1800s, you know, like Bartum and Claude Hopkins and Albert Lasker and a lot of these guys. I mean, I after I'm a nerd, so I went really deep in PT Barnum's life, studied all of his campaigns. I mean, went really deep into his life, wrote a book on it, which will come out soon. I was excited about it. But it's one of the biggest things I realized is that yeah, there's no such thing as internet marketing. There's marketing. And funny enough, these dudes from the 1800s probably understood marketing more than we do because they had much less distribution. Well, now we got all this distribution. You know, PT Barnum was crap as pants if he sees Instagram. like we can or what we're doing right now, you know, it's like there's so much distribution and it's so easy to reach people at volume that the marketing skill I think kind of went down. And so there's marketing and the internet is just a distribution method of that marketing. And if you study the two separately, the game gets a lot easier. Otherwise, we start like, oh, what time I post on Facebook? That's the secret key. It's like, not really. It's like, what is your marketing message? And then it doesn't really matter what channel you use, you know, like when Clubhouse was a thing for like a hot second, you know, pe people were like, should I be on Clubhouse? And I'm like, wrong question. It should be, are my customers using Clubhouse? And if so, it's a channel I can meet them on, you know, and all these just channels. There's distribution methods. Email's a channel. Facebook's a channel. Doortodoor is a channel. And when you look at it in that way, the game gets a lot easier to master. and you don't get so jarred by the next new platform that comes out because you're like it's just another distribution method for the same. So what we'll do in our company is we come up with the marketing story that not the sales story. It's not the origin story. No one cares about the origin story until they've already raised their hand. We come up with the marketing story and once we know it works, we'll just use all the channels we know our customers are on. Um so if someone's like, "Oh, I don't want to make Facebook video or YouTube videos." I'm like, "All right, are your people on it? Get two gets two billion searches a month, you know, and they're like, "Yeah, my people are on it." And I'm like, "Then maybe you're just not the marketer, and that's okay. Be the entrepreneur. Totally different role, you know." Um, yeah. So, I I think that that the true study of marketing actually doesn't involve the internet almost at all. Um, and uh, 80% should be on what marketing really is and 20% needs to be on these methods and then they're a lot easier to win on because just pushing the message. Are you looking to quickly boost new Amazon product launches or scale up existing listings to reach first page positioning? The influencer platform Stack Influence can help. >> That's right. Stack Influence pushes high volume external traffic sales straight to Amazon listings using micro influencers that you only have to pay with your products. They've helped upandcoming brands like Magic Spoon compete with Cheerios for top category positioning while also helping Fortune 500 brands like Unilver launch their new products. Right now is one of the best times to get started with Stack Influence. You can sign up at stackinfluence.com or click the link in this video down in the description notes below and mention Misfits, that's misfi, to get 10% off your first campaign. stackinfluence.com. It's like I always like to say, human psychology really hasn't changed in in several hundred years. And if you understand the principles of psychology, that's what marketing is. Uh and and it it doesn't matter, you know, I my my background is in direct mail and I was doing stuff before the internet sending mailers out like you're you know back then the the funnel I they always said start with the order form first before you actually make the catalog or the brochure. The first thing you should design is the order form and work backwards from there and you know you put stuff on the order form and you know upselles and automatically you know buy the insurance it's automatically pre-filled in so you got to scratch it out and you know all that kind of stuff. So, um, it's it's that psychology. That book you mentioned, that's what dramatic illustrations is. >> That's what it that's what it was going to be called. U Russell and I were going to co-author it together and then it was called this weird or dumb, but it was it's been such my baby. I was like, I'm going to go just do it on my own. So, it's called it's from what my what it's actually from, which is called Offer Launch. Um, and uh Russell was like, let's co-author a book on that. So, we used his name, but then after a while was like, oh, I'm going to take that back. So, >> yeah. >> So, is I I'm just curious. I'm not sure if this is the right book, but Kevin and I were talking and he said he heard something. He's mentioned this a few times on the podcast, by the way, but about your Red Ocean, Blue Offer. Is that from that book? >> Um, that'll be a different one, but we'll definitely I'll definitely reference it in there. Um, >> yeah. >> Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, you know, um, so I went to school and and got a a business and marketing and design degree and, um, it's so funny, you know, the the the capstone, the final project of all of college, we had to write this 20page business plan and present it in front of this actual board of investors, and I had colleagues that actually got invested that day. And um, so glad mine didn't, otherwise I'd be stuck doing it. Um um but you know they always had this mo this this mentality that how big's the market size what's the competition like oh my gosh there's competition you better go go go away from there's too much competition you know and you hear this a lot and book came out blue ocean the whatever that and everybody references like it's on everybody's like you must read list top 10 books business books you must read >> and it's a wonderful strategy you know red ocean blue ocean is a wonderful strategy um when you want to create a market. But what really happened for me and the reason this came out is when I was leaving my job as the lead funnel builder, Clickfunnels, I was like, I still want to do funnels, but I don't want to compete with Clickfunnels. I want to complement them. And so, how can I position myself in the market, but be unique? I don't want to leave the market. I want to stay in it. And so, that's where this whole concept came from, which is I was like, you know what? What if it wasn't red ocean, blue ocean? What if it was red ocean, blue offer? And the reason is, you know, when you go to the blue ocean, the reason it's blue is nobody's there. Um, and your skill has to be really high when you're a market of one. That's not even a market yet. There has to be some other business for it to even be a market. And so, uh, quick quick side story on this. It really illustrate. Is that all right? >> Yeah, sure. Yeah. I my first job was in an injection molding plastic factory. Um I've worked a lot of labor jobs growing up. I was a tire buster at Discount Tire, you know. I um uh I I I dug sprinkler trenches by hand because my boss was too cheap to buy a trenching machine. So I really affiliate with the movie Holes as a documentary. I can dig a mean hole, you know. And I remember this one day I was working a construction job. We were building residential swimming pools and I was like, I'm done with this. I was home between college semesters and I was like, I'm going to go get rich and figure out how to do it. So, I picked up this piece of broken tile on the ground and I just walked out and um at that time I was really into Kiaki and I had just read Rich Dad Poor Dad and which is probably the gateway drug for a lot of us. Um uh there's this radio ad that comes across the radio. Robert Kiosaki is coming to a hotel near you to teach you stocks and options. And I was like what? Let's go. you know, he's like, "It's 200 bucks." And I was like, "Oh my gosh, that's a lot of holes." You know, so I go over to this this thing and uh it's a three-day three-day little seminar in a hotel. I didn't know I was in a funnel. Um and my dad was like, "You're going to get scammed." And I was like, "No, I'm not, Dad. I'll show you." You know, toilet chip on my shoulder. And I come back the first day just on fire. And I'm telling my dad all about it. And he's like, "I'm going to come with you tomorrow and I'm going to show you it's a scam." So he comes with me. He comes with me to the uh to the second day. And at first he was like super standoffish, but after a while I saw him like pull out a notebook on the side and he's like taking notes and stuff. And so we go back home that day and my mom was like, "So was it a scam?" And my dad was like, "We spent $30,000 on a coaching program." >> Oh. >> On stocks and options. And so we got really really into stocks and options trading. Couple years goes by. I go back to school, join the army, I do all this stuff. And I talked to my dad and I'm like, "You still doing stocks and options trading?" And he goes, "Yeah, but not on the New York Stock Exchange." I was like, "Why? We spent 30 grand. That's what we were trained on." And he goes, "Um," he goes, "Dude, I'm trading the Forex. It's the global market, not the national market. It's so much bigger." I was like, "Yeah, but why?" And he said this line that literally influenced Red Ocean Blue Offer. He goes, he goes, "I'm doing Forex because the pie is so much bigger. I've learned that I can afford to be less skilled, but I still take home more money. >> I was like, huh, market size matters, right? And I was like, what am I doing going after all these little tiny blue? There's no l there's no money in it. When you go to a blue ocean, like those guys deserve to be billionaires. It is really intense. Statistically takes 10 years for you to really bur the market. Most companies don't have that vision for that amount of time either. So, they shouldn't be trying to build a blue ocean. And instead, when you when you go straight into the center of a red ocean, you got Joemo's business that's in there. It's trying to not die, so it's doing marketing and bringing people in. You got Suzie Q's business, and she doesn't want to die, so she's doing marketing and bringing people in. You have this self-relenishing pond of new leads 247. And when I learn to be unique in the sea of red, it is the source of daily leads, easiest sales, shortest sales cycles because they've already bought from Joemo and they've already overcome objections, really short success cycles um post purchase. It's it's the grand secret positioning that I do for all my clients. It's the first thing I do with them is they're they usually have no market positioning and so their average cost to acquire is through the roof and they also have no clarity on the customer. And it's like just fixing those two things is usually what makes the rest of their company work. And so I'm like let's go straight into the heart of the red the biggest fattest exactly the opposite of what college taught. Straight into the biggest fattest red ocean that we possibly can. Screw the word niche. No one can define it anyway. um and go for really big, really old, and where all the money actually is, and you can afford to be less skilled. >> Well, well, that's because your competitors are almost like training your >> your your customers. Uh they're >> what do you call it? Like what is that in a wedding? A a dress rehearsal or whatever. Um for for them and you can just come in and snap them up. >> I I that's funny. That's exactly what I told him. I said, "Every person, there's really no such thing as a competitor when you may take that kind of market positioning because every purchase from your competitor, quote unquote, is literally a dress rehearsal from buying from you." And they get educated off of the marketing dollar of your competitor. A classic example of that was when um it's so funny. I love my parents. My mom thought for years I was selling kitchen funnels. Like I was like, she's like, "What do you do? I don't know what you do." I was like, She's like, "You're selling fun." But I was like, "No, that no." I was like, "Mom, I hate cooking." Like, I'm not that kind of guy. Like, no. And I don't want to learn to be good at cooking. But isn't that funny that the word funnel meant something different to her? And so, it's not that I couldn't sell my mom funnels, but the education bridge I got to cross with her is huge. And that costs money and time. But when I use the word funnel inside of a specific market, they've already been educated. The easiest sales, funny enough, come from those who've already bought from your competitor and you're just selling to the frustrated market and they're the easiest. They're the easiest to close. >> Is blue offer your moat or is that completely different? >> No. Yeah. The blue offer is what makes you unique in there, but you don't leave the market. Um, it's funny when I'm so I'm I'm at my studio right now, you know, and I'm I'll be on this stage and I'll be teaching the people here and I'll be like I'll be like, "We're these entrepreneurs at heart." I got to tell you, we got to be honest, the entrepreneur is the broke roll. You know, think about what happens. I go into the creative cave and I invent something that's never been seen before. You know, something that this is amazing and we should, right? the the the creative genius in the cave making this cool thing that's amazing that no one's seen but then literally just because it's new will go do the equivalent of build a mall to have a place to sell it and I'm like if you can't convert the foot traffic at the mall that someone else already built why on earth would you go through the hell of building your own mall like I'm not saying red ocean pollution is not a great strategy but it's the one for billionaires when most business owners just want more money for retirement and for vacation time with the families and investments. And it's like stay stay in the big fat red oceans and learn to be unique in it. And you actually end up solving all the problems that you have to solve anyway if you're going to build a blue. But you actually just you're closer to the the fountain head of cash. >> Hey Norm, do you know any sellers out there that are just burned out doing this uh ecom game? You know, I I know a lot of people that have talked to us, you know, when we go to events, and it's not only that, they don't know where to start. And >> who would you recommend they talk to? The >> first one that comes to mind is is Quiet Light Brokerage. And here's why. They're going to build you up. They're going to understand your company. And at the end of the day, you're going to know how to maximize your valuation. So, the very first thing you need to do is go and get your free confidential uh valuation at quietite.com. They're going to ask a couple questions. Uh you're going to meet up. It's one- on-one with uh somebody over there and then, you know, let the games begin. Awesome. What was that website again? >> It's quiet.com. Awesome. I'm going to head over there. >> So, is it fair to say if you take that approach of of what you're saying that it's not really a traffic issue? It's more of a like you said with some of your clients, more of a a messaging or positioning uh um problem. Is that would that be fair to say? 100%. The the formula for daily lead flow is uh positioning hooks um and uh branding. And it's really it's hard to brand if there's nothing to compare you to, you know. Um, >> can you >> can you give us a case where you've tweaked something to match those three things that you just talked about which just made a killer difference? >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh, there's a company that I bought into a couple years ago. Um this lady was uh she was the professor of genetics at the University of Florida and she created this very interesting business where she took um pharmacists you know who have PhDs and she taught them how to work directly with labs testing labs and not through insuranceback doctors and what we would do is we would take a cheek swab and send it directly ly to a lab and they could tell based on your DM DNA what medications you're taking that you should be described from. Like we're we're very prescribe happy, you know, in this country. >> Um, but no one ever tells you when to stop taking it. M >> and so uh the business was let's teach these pharmacists who get stuck in Walgreens and they're just pill pushers you know or CVS you know or a hospital and let's actually use what they studied which is how to de deprescribe describe whatever uh people from their medications um and so she's like can you come in and help blow this up so I was like first thing you're going after the medical industry which is already kind of spicy >> so like we got to be careful here. But to create positioning, what we did is I created I created a positioning where we ended up calling the whole medical industry general medicine. And we created a category called precision medicine. We didn't leave the red. We created and created a new thing inside of it called precision medicine. And so when when people would be like, "Oh yeah, I went to my doctor." We're like, "Oh, awesome. Is he a general medicine practitioner or a precision medicine practitioner? And people were like, "What do you mean precise on my DNA?" Like, "Yeah, have you not got a cheek swap before?" Like, "These things are free." And then it it works so well. Like so so well. So this precision medicine category that we created like it it also attracted the pharmacists who were like, "Yeah, this is what I went to goes to school for, you know, and so we ended up creating this branding. They they always wanted to get their their white lab coat. So we called the we called them the the wealthy white coats and they put on their white coat and that was the equivalent of the capitalist fig branding. They're really their championing thing like I'm a wealthy white coat meaning I'm not going to get stuck in a a pharmacy or you know a CVS kind of a thing. I'm going work direct with labs and we we taught them to do is to get their own book of business from the neighborhoods that they lived in and um and then after that it unfolded to other like you know customized supplements and things like that. But yeah, that's exactly what we're talking about is like >> branding is impossible. Strong branding is is impossible when there's not an us versus them. And so it's like if you go in the cereal aisle in America, right? There's like the generic brand and then there's the brand name. And often those are owned by the same company, right? Uh >> come off the same uh factory line. >> Yes. Literally. You know, they're just packaged differently. I mean, if you literally pull back the box and look at the ingredients, it is exactly the same product. >> And so, I like to ask people, you know, like, which one should I choose? >> And it's funny cuz you can start to hear the little I am statements coming out. Oh, well, I'm going to choose the one on the left. I'm going to choose the the the generic because it's cheaper. I'm like, oh, so you believe that thrift is good. Like, awesome. Who's going to choose the one on the right? You know, it's literally twice the price. like, "Oh, well, I worked hard this week and I made a big sale, so I'm gonna" and it's funny that our little I am statements and what we believe about ourselves is reflective of the products we choose to purchase. But funny enough, the name brand product cannot exist in that kind of positioning without the generic to compare it to. >> And so when you go out and you create red ocean, blue ocean or red ocean, blue offer rather, there has to be a comparative statement with what's inside of that red. You can't do that if it's a blue ocean. There's nothing to compare to. And so it's very hard. You have to can. It's very challenging though. So, uh, the positioning piece is one of the strongest things you can. It's positioning plus hook plus brand. And you get those things lined in. It doesn't matter if you're using Facebook or YouTube or Instagram. Like all these are just methods of distribution. And and um, you know, you don't get traffic. You stand in front of it. And so what are the channels that all of my people are already on? And you start dropping those hooks in the middle of those rivers that already exist. And daily leads is very easy. Now Norm's a big domain guy. And I I heard you talk about where you get this positioning and stuff with some domains. And you had like you you had one that's like are we roommates.com? And you had another one was like not your mama'sbody.com. And so >> you really been going through my stuff. Okay. >> URL. Why? I I have some notes here from your talk at IMP. So, >> okay. Yeah. Yeah. >> But yeah. So, you you had you gave like 10 examples uh of different ones where you actually start with a domain name. You you figure out the position and you figure out the marketing. Who's the who's going to say I am? Like you said on the serial aisle and then you go after that domain name and then you build around that. So, they're they're instantly as they're typing that in or as they're seeing that they're like that's me. That's me. Of course. Can you can you talk about that? Maybe even give one of those examples um Yeah. of that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And the whole premise behind it is that like goes back to market messaging versus sales messaging and how they're totally different. Sales messaging is when you start telling your origin story. This is where my product came from. This is where I come from. This is the offer. That's sales messaging. Um uh market messaging is a form of messaging that is the customer's story. They don't care about you yet, right? Is that they just want to know they're understood. And so in the psychology of helping someone make a decision to buy, first you go and you talk about them, it's like, what's the story that you're experiencing right now? What's the problem that you're experiencing? And once you know that I know that I know you, then they start raising their hand and saying, "Oh my gosh, you get me. Tell me more." Now, now they've asked, "Tell me about your thing." And now it's not weird when you start doing your sales stuff. So I call it the offer hook. And the offer hook is a very specific story that you're finding which later gets expressed in a headline and later gets expressed in a in a ad, Facebook ad, then later gets expressed in your organic YouTube content. We're just trying to identify the story that when someone hears it, it it's almost like a little baby trigger and they're like, "Oh my gosh, this person gets me. Tell me more." So the um I've ruffled a lot of marketers feathers If you can't tell, I'm a misfit. I'm so excited to be honest here with you guys. I won't shut up about this stuff. But, um, you know, it's interesting. You have all these marketers, quote unquote, who are putting videos out where nobody ever watches that video and then says, "Tell me more." And I always like to challenge him and say, "Was that video you put out marketing then?" And you know, people don't like it. Um, when I help them realize the answer is no. Like, we can't claim that everything we're doing on the internet is marketing. There's I'm not saying there's no value in being present. There certainly is. And just showing up. But if you put out a piece of content and no one ever says, "Tell me more about your product." We can't call that marketing. Marketing is only measured in lead genen. It's only measured in hand raises. And uh some people don't like that, but I find it actually brings a lot of clarity and breathing room because now now you get really now oh now I know what I should be doing on the internet to get leads for my funnel. I need to get hand raises. And that really narrows and simplifies all this stuff that we feel like we should be doing as as marketers. Um uh I'm just pulling up my internet marketing party speech here. Yeah, it's one of the one of these hooks. Do the hook. It was a good one. >> Yeah. You did you did one of the the women in their 30s with unsatisfying marriages. You did uh post pregnancy, weight loss, Christian men seeking marriage, u windbacks, osteoporosis. Um you did a whole bunch of them. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I've done almost a hundred of them now for clients. Um the >> the Clad Hopkins in the toothpaste industry is a good one, too. Um >> yeah, you're literally quoting my deck. Can you see my screen right now? I got the notes. >> You took great notes. Yeah. Yeah. Uh so, okay, this is um I already did a medical one, so we'll do a relationship one. Um and I try to choose ones that are in like health and relationships because if people can see it in those industries, like it's easy to do it in the make money space. Um so, all right, this one was um this guy, I don't remember, this is a long time ago. This guy helps men get their life back. um they're Christian men and uh they have they're professionals but their pressures they're under they kind of cope with some bad habits fill in the gaps and whatever that means you know and um uh so I asked him I was like what market are you trying to go towards and thankfully he said the marriage market I was like good it's big it's red probably the oldest market um and um so anyway this is this is the hook that I wrote Um, and when I read this, a lot of people go, I don't understand. You're going to put that entire thing on the headline of a page. And the answer is no. What I'm trying to do first is just identify the story that causes an emotional reaction that gets somebody to say, "Tell me more. I think you're describing me." Then we go through the work of actually writing into a headline and writing into sales copy for a page. Um, but uh, so all all this is is the story that causes emotional hand raising. All right, so here's the hook. Um, and you want to imagine that the dream customer is going to run into this in the channels they're already on and feel so understood that they're like, "Oh my gosh, I got to go see what this is." Um, you've enjoyed life as a Christian man, a father, a leader in your career, yet the marriage has felt off for a few years now. To cope with the discomfort, you've taken on a few bad and secret habits that you're not proud of. She's noticed and removed herself from you this time by physically moving out and you don't know when or if she's coming back. What steps could you take to feel like a man you can be proud of and win her back? And we got win backyouife.com and and you notice that what most entrepreneurs do when they get in the marketing seat is they make the hook be about their offer. Come into this thing and you're going to get the three steps on this one p like it's and that's not what we're doing at all. It's too early to talk about your offer. It's too early to talk about your origin story. What the story is about is the customer. It's the customer's story. Um, one of my favorite books is Play Bigger. Um, I don't remember if this is a quote or just a sentiment that I got from it, but it it teaches in that book that when you can describe the customer's problem better than they can themselves, it is immediately assumed that you have the best solution. >> And so you have all these entrepreneurs championing solutions. And that's just a game of noise. It's like who can be the loudest? And that's you absolutely get annoying like that. Solution, solution. I got the best thing. I got the best thing. And you just that's you're just championing it, right? And that's the focal point of your marketing and it's annoying. But if you can do the exact opposite and make your marketing be championing problems instead of solutions, you immediately outposition everybody else. Immediately the customer feels understood. Immediately they assume that that you know them and therefore you have the solution for them. Um and so these offer hooks are customerbased stories in the middle of their near triggering pain. And we want to write them in a way like when I read them a lot of people are like can we say that oh my gosh like oh like going for the jugular here right that is intense >> but we want to write it in a way that >> alienates some people right it alienates some the obvious the audience that's on it alienates them those are the ones that going can you say that or >> whatever 100% meant to like good marketing is a magnet and a filter and what most people mess up with when they write these hooks is they just have a magnet And so they start, you know, we got to be honest about the fact that there's such thing as a dream customer. There's such thing as a hell customer, right? Um, and someone who should not have bought from you. And so when you want that pushpull language, and these stories do that where it's like, if someone can't relate with the offer hook I just read, they bounce. It's like, it's good that that's good that they bounced. It also will attract more people because of it. Um, and your option rates shoot through the roof. Hey, Kevin King and Norm Ferrar here. If you've been enjoying this episode of Marketing Misfits, thanks for listening this far. Continue listening. We got some more valuable stuff coming up. Be sure to hit that subscribe button if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast player. Or if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify, make sure you subscribe to our channel because you don't want to miss a single episode of The Marketing Misfits. Have you subscribed yet, Norm? >> Well, this is an old guy alert. Should I subscribe to my own podcast? Yeah, but what if you forget to show up one time? It's just me on here. You're not going to know what I say. >> I'll I'll buy you a beard and you can sit in my chair, too. We'll just You can go back and forth with one another. Yikes. But that being said, don't forget to subscribe, share it. Oh, and if you really like this content, somewhere up there there's a banner. Click on it and you'll go to another episode of the marketing misfits. >> Make sure you don't miss a single episode because you don't want to be like Norm. >> Now, on your hooks, don't I remember you said in that same talk you have a fivestep process, a hook a hook formula. It's like a five. Can you walk us through those those five steps? >> Yeah. Yeah. I should just play that speech. Yeah. I'm glad that you loved it so much. Um, it's you it's part of a three-day event that I do, so I really struggled to put it into 30 minutes. I was like I was like like >> that was really good. >> I was like we I was like give me some more time, dude. >> Um uh yeah, so the five parts that make up the offer formula and I started recognizing that I was doing this after I've been writing hooks for clients for like two years. And I was like this I'm I'm not what is this? I'm not writing sales material. Um, and half the reason this came up is because I could not get anyone to give me a good definition of a hook. You know, everyone's like, "The hook is the thing that grabs attention." And that's like as far as you get when you ask what a hook is. And I was like, "That's a that's a crappy hook definition. I could slap you in the face. I'll get your attention, you know, but you're not going to say tell me more." Like, >> you know what I mean? Like, >> do it again. Do it again. >> Just say it. >> That's what Norm does to me when he comes. was like, "Do it again. Do it again." I told someone I was like, "I could take you to the balls and I'm going to have your attention, but you're not it's the wrong kind of attention, you know?" Like, so it's not a good de like our industry, funny enough, has a really tough time with what a hook actually is. We know we need them, but it's like uh anyway, so that's that's where this also came from. All right, so the first thing that we do when we're writing one of these hook formulas, it's usually a two-hour exercise, but if you can nail the hook, the funnel's easy because it themes the entire funnel. So um we go in and we say number one we need to describe the dream c dream customer right um >> like call call them call call them outs basically. >> Yeah. While also at the same time saying in a storyline that if your c if that person can't identify with the story they're like this is not for me and they leave. >> So it's you're bouncing in that first sentence >> like a call and fil like a call and filter basically. >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. The the second part of it, I called the dream customer buying experience. So, what I do there is I describe what I want them to already have purchased to be considered a dream customer. So, I was like, "Oh, you've gone off and you've tried these other uh um I can maybe I'll read another one, you know, after I kind of go through this. Um, but I want to call out what they've already been attempting to have to try to have success because I'm trying to >> was like an if they someone was hiring your agency, it'd be like you've already talked to this other agency and gone through this this and this and they gave you their weakest person and they just didn't perform and you're always begging them for reports and never got something along those lines. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. you want to you want to call and the reason that that this part of it matters so much is that you're you're basically um you're basically filtering out freeloaders if they've never opened up their wallet if they've never been educated off the back of someone else's dollar if they've never you know all that does is put more uh intensity on your fulfillment post purchase so I want to upgrade the quality of the customer I'm trying to serve with that um the third part I call it the infinite story trap I the the place people will mess hooks up on is they write hooks around problems that their customer has become numb to. And if they're numb to it, then they don't care. And so I first want to identify the story that they're stuck. >> What would be an example of that of like being numb to? >> Yeah. Like like the weight loss industry. If someone's like, "I'm overweight and I'm overweight and who I am." You know, it's like, well, your weight loss product is probably not going to be exciting then. You know what I mean? Like, okay. >> So, I first identify the story trap called the infinite story trap. >> The story trap in their head. >> Yeah. Like, >> it's what they're telling themselves in their head. Okay. I I got you now. Okay. >> I'm just infinitely in this thing. But the fourth part matters just as much, which I I call it the emotional hammer drop. Something has to drop the hammer. What's the thing that dra, you know, the straw that breaks the camel's back? Hey, you've taken up some bad habits in your life and your wife has noticed. Okay, story trap. However, this time she moved out. Hammer drops. Okay, I've got to do something about this. >> Right. Um, so it's it's usually some emotional or dramatic thing that has happened to them that um makes them uh say, "It's time for change. Let's get serious. You got a product. I'm ready to buy it. Um uh yeah. And then the fifth one, I call it a change-based question. And so questions hijack the brain. And so just like in sales, I want to always want to end with a question, not just a statement. I do the same thing in marketing, I want to end with a question that opens an opportunity for them. So what I what could you do in the next 90 days to get X results while still having ABC in your life? Right? um some kind of timestamped change-based question. What could you do? And then the answer is the dot win back your wife. The answer is, you know, uh so so the hook is not just a headline. We express it in the headline. We express it in the.com. It's expressed in the same sentiment of the story is expressed in the ad. If I'm getting, you know, uh, if I'm making podcasts or YouTube content, I'm still saying that same storyline in different area variations and ways so that I'm always subtly pulling people to say, "Tell me more. Tell me more." And pushing away those who are not a fit for the company. >> Should I give one more example here? >> Yeah, that'd be great. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, maybe I stop at each point just for people listening so they like are there any sense. Like say that was the uh emotional the hammer drop. That was it. Just to illustrate the point. >> Yeah, that sounds good. Uh this is for a client of mine that I had two years ago. Um this is the osteoporosis one. Um uh he's the marketing firm that osteorong uses or like half of their 170 locations in the US uses. Um this hook was so strong that his competitor heard it and just asked to be acquired. They're like we don't want to compete. >> Wow. So his company doubled in like three months because his competitor was like I don't even want to compete with that and he just they anyway so um he was he was at a convention debuting it and his competitor was like oh um no let's just be together. So um so he helps women in America who um get diagnosed with osteoporosis and in America you can only give bone medication to a woman for two years because that's how long it's medically safe. And most of the time a woman's bones are weaker because it actually removes minerals from the bones. Don't know why that is that way in America. Chalk it up to whatever, but um and so what their company does is at the end of that 2 years when a woman finds out her bones are still weak, they swoop in and say, "Here's the actual way to make your bone stronger." Um so anyway, so that was the hook and he's like, "We need more clients. We need more people walking into our facilities. Uh more women who have this scenario." So, like, okay, so here's here's uh here's the hook. Um, and so, first thing I got to do is call out the dream customer. The doctor wants to meet again to share a few options after your loan b after your latest bone density scan showed that your bones actually got weaker. So, already in that first the first sentence is the hardest one to write. I'm calling out the dream customer and I'm pushing away the person who isn't. So, if a woman has just gotten diagnosed with osteoporosis and she hasn't done two years, she's already not a fit for this. >> Mhm. >> The doctor wants to meet again to share a few options that your latest bone density scan showed that your bones actually got weaker. But why? For months, you've So, here's the uh uh this is the call out. Um trying to read. Okay. This is the current offer frustrations. This is calling out the dream customer's current buying experience. This next line, but why? For months, you've gone along with the doctor's orders, taking harder pronounced medications, going on more walks, increasing calcium. So, that's what they're already trying, doing, and buying. So, the story continues. Now, we have to do the infinite story trap. Back again with a doctor. You're told that things would have been worse if you hadn't been following their prescription. But the advice that you're g given is to just keep doing what you are. It's a trap. No options. Okay. Now, now we have to make the floor fall out. We have to do an emotional hammer drop. As you get back in your car, you notice the biggest fear you have is painfully letting getting your bones so weak that you end up in permanent assisted living, unable to move or really live again. >> So now we have to go into I do two sets of change based questions. Will slowly deteriorating represent the rest of your life and what you're remembered for? What simple? So here's the changebased question for real. What simple but hidden unorthodox path could you take in the next 12 months to keep all of those medications from slowly poisoning your bones to death and restoring the longevity once had and were known for? And we got bonepoisoning.com. >> Dude, this slayed this so freaking good. >> These I don't know what they've done to do with the domain since, but 55% optin on a free thing that led to a phone call for them to sell them and come into their their practices. It's crazy. >> That's awesome. Own poisoning. He was really scared to put it out. He's like, "That's like really intense." And I was like, "Yeah, but it's also intense what they're going through. So, meet them where they are and write an intense hook and tell tell the hardcore story." Um, and they've attracted just tons of women who are like, "Yeah, I feel like I'm" And what what the funnel was, um, I haven't looked at it for like two years, so I can't talk to that. But what the funnel was was you went to bone poisoning.com and it said, "Hey, put your name and email in here. What we're going to do is we're actually going to give you a PDF download of all the real side effects from the popular bone medications in America that are medically backed, but probably not explained to you when you were prescribed those medications. For example, did you know your jaw can detach? Go ahead and put your name and email in and we'll send you this PDF." And so so they they grab the PDF and they're read and these are you know we were making this up as like these are the real of the top 10 bone medications in America for osteoporosis. And then on the next page is like do you want to hop on a call? It's just getting phone calls. >> So if your if your if your stuff is good, don't be afraid to to poke the bear. >> Yep. Rock the boat. >> Yeah. Rock rock. And a lot of people are afraid to do that. that that's I mean Norman and I also have a an agency that does email marketing for ecom sellers and people are like it just amazes how many people are sitting on on these lists and just afraid to email them or or bother them you know more than once a month or something like that >> I don't want to be annoying >> they might unsubscribe or be annoying it's just it baffles our mind like dude you're leaving so much money on the table >> or people are going to unsubscribe >> yeah and you are being annoying if you're using sales messaging in your email channel but if you use market messaging, you'll find that people actually thank you while they're buying from you because they feel understood. >> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. >> Hey, we are already at the top of the hour and unfortunately uh we've got to move on, but uh this was so great, Steve. >> This was awesome, man. Thanks, guys. >> We never even got into your marriage, which was another great marketing technique. We'll wait for that one. Yeah, that'll be awesome. Hey, look, uh, we always have one question we ask our misfits. And do you know a misfit? >> Oh, yeah. Um, yep. As soon as you asked, um, Domingo Salves, that guy's a misfit. >> All right. Well, I I can't tell us a little bit about Domingo. >> This guy goes into companies and um grows them so quickly. He they usually give him equity and then he flips them. >> He got $80 million exit. Um he is a massive AI uh agency that builds AI tools for companies custom. Um he's he's amazing. >> Oh, fantastic. >> Awesome. I would love to love to get an introduction. We'll reach out or Mario reach out and get an introduction to him. That that would be awesome. So people want to reach out to you. What's the best way to uh you you said you have an agency and you you um tell us what's the best way for people to get in touch with you if they they want to learn more or work with you. >> Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate that. Um probably the best place right now is launchforprofit.com. Um we just teach people the very principles I was going through right here. Um and then help people apply them. Um with everything that's going on right now, that's probably the best place. Uh if not, then stejarson.com. >> Fantastic. All right, Steve. Well, thanks for Whoa, there goes my Coke Zero. >> Thanks for coming on. >> Appreciate it, man. >> Thanks so much. >> Thanks. Thank you. >> All right, that was fantastic. >> Yeah, that was awesome. That was good stuff. I like it when the guests come on and they give like examples like, you know, walk a walk through so people listening or watching this can actually when they take something away. It's it's always good to have guests that have cool stories and that are interesting. But you know how you listen to some podcasts and it's more like theory or it's more like general things or it's more about just about them and not about things that you can actually do and take away. And that's one of the things that I've always liked when I've heard Steve talk is he he's always about just delivering value and just sharing >> uh his experiences and his knowledge and and and saying it in a way that's that most people can understand, you know, not a lot of jargon or whatever. And um I thought that I thought I think this is going to be a very popular episode and >> just exactly what was on my mind, Kevin. >> And if if you want to hear the other half, uh and some would say probably the better half, you want to go make sure you listen to Marley Jack's episode of Marketing Misfits. I'm not sure what number that one will be, but make sure you you go into uh where do they do that? How do they how would they find that, uh Norm? They would go to YouTube and just type in Marketing Misfits podcast and that's where you can hear about the wedding by the way. >> That's right. And and that one um and then uh you can find us on uh the Talk Tickers or what's the thing? >> Yeah, you can go to Talk Tickers or whatever they're going to call it soon. But uh yeah, Tik Tok, we've got uh a channel there. It's just Marketing Misfits. Uh we launched it about 4 months ago and it's doing really well. So check that out. >> I saw one of the clips had like 200,000 views or something like that. I don't know. There there were some there's some there that have a ton. So yeah, check it out. We always like the extra view. Uh but the other thing is and this is really important. We have another channel, another YouTube channel that only does 3 minutes and under clips. So there's the long form is always great. A lot of times you might not have time, but you can always check that out. And those are the nuggets that we dig out of every episode. And it's it's a great channel. So there it's po it's upgraded and new published videos are up there uh every day and yeah and uh also we're on Spotify. Uh we're on Apple podcast. Uh all those cool places where you want to listen or you can always go to marketingmisfits.co if you get confused like where do I go? Just go to marketingmisfits.co. It's not.com uh it's.co. Um, >> and after this uh podcast, by the way, I'm buying are you a misfit.com? >> We should. I mean, yeah, >> I will. I mean, we should get out of I know you will because you have like 20,000 domains already. I mean, what's one more? What's one more? >> What's one more? Hey, uh, speaking of one more, we'll see you guys again next week for one more episode of the Marketing Misfits. Another brand new episode every Tuesday. Uh, thanks again for joining us today. Uh, and uh, I'll see you uh, soon too, Norm. >> All right. We'll see you later, Kev. >> Take care, everybody.