The Psychology of YouTube Titles (Stop the Clickbait)

The title is everything. If you don't write a great title, nobody's going to click our videos. And if nobody clicks our videos, we wasted all this time and money making these videos. And we're not going to get any sales, any leads, any views, any subscribers. What makes someone click immediately? >> Three emotions that make people click. I call them the three click worthy emotions. Curiosity, fear, and desire. How is AI affected all this? If I were to make a YouTube channel today and I would probably only want to target how do I just make interesting titles and all of my traffic is coming from browse like on the homepage and suggested on the sidebar. I want somebody to come to my channel and I want them to binge watch every single video on my channel. >> So what about thumbnails? What do you recommend people do? Write the title first then create the thumbnail or create the thumbnail then the title. >> I always loved the psychology of YouTube titles and the leverage. If you change like one or two words, that could be the difference between a,000 views or 100,000 views or a million views. >> You're watching the marketing misfits with Norm Farrar and Kevin K. >> What's up, you old fossil? >> That's what they call me. That's what they call me. The cigar fossil. >> Cigar. The cigar fossil. You know, that's that smoke from the cigars is going to I think it it foss what's it? petrifies. It's smoke petrifiification, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Petrifies your skin. >> Kind of like a cockroach, I guess. >> It's kind of scaly, right? >> Hey, we got to talk about Murder Mayhem. We had our first uh kick at the can. >> Uh yeah, Murder Mayhem. We did uh we we started that in early uh August and uh it's going well. So, if you if if you're not uh haven't seen it yet and you're listening to this podcast, check out the Misfits uh podcast uh Misfits social media channel and see when we're doing the next game. We do them before webinars now. So, if you're on the list to get M um Marketing Misfits webinars, we uh do them before that. Then we we're doing them uh periodically and giving away some pretty cool prizes and bringing on guests. Uh so, it's like a miniature podcast, right, Nor? >> Yeah. I think you were saying you were going to give away $1,000 per winner last time. >> Uh, yeah, that's I was waiting for you to transfer the money from your personal account and then I was going to make that offer, but I >> be waiting a long time, Kev. >> That's right. And and it's supposed to be in US dollars, not Canadian, too. So >> Oh. Oh, okay. >> No, I think about that. >> That's a pretty cool game. We do this game at a market market masters. Look at all these market marketing market masters which is my big event that I do once a year in Austin. Uh just happened recently. Uh and it's a fun game. We do it with alcohol and real $20 bills, but we've taken that game and put it online and it's it's a lot of fun and uh you can win stuff and so uh check check that out. >> Yeah, we had to change the name. Yeah, we couldn't call it a murderbot because uh as our guest today will know, putting the word murder in the title might not actually uh be a good thing. Maybe it actually will get a lot of clicks. >> We'll ask them. >> Probably be shortlived. Yeah, >> because you YouTube will probably take that thing down or at least investigate it. >> Uh but yeah, uh that's one of the things we got to figure out, Nor, is how we're streaming those live to YouTube. So, we need to figure out how to title that live stream so we get more people coming in. Oh, >> I see a segue coming up. >> I guess our guest today is someone that would pro could probably actually help us with that. He's got his knowledge. He's got some tools. He's got a badass newsletter. Uh, and he's all about YouTube. So, it's going to be it's going to be interesting. I think everybody, no matter what you're doing out there, if you're not doing YouTube right now, you're making a mistake for your brand. Doesn't matter what you're selling. And that's what our guest today is. Uh he studied it and he knows it backwards and forwards and I think he's going to share a few tips that might help everybody out. >> All right, let's introduce him. >> What's up? Uh yeah, you got to hit that button. There you go, Norm. That's >> Thanks, Jake. >> Jake Thomas is our guest today. Welcome, Jake. >> Yeah, thanks for having me, Kevin. Thanks, Norm. >> Awesome. So, you're you're Mr. YouTube title, right? >> That's what they say. I I believe I'm the only YouTube title guy, which is a it's a nice spot to be in. >> I went to uh the YouTube uh there's a couple different YouTube conferences. What's the one that's in Dallas? Uh VidSummit. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. And I remember I went there a couple years ago uh to that that conference. And I don't know if you've ever been or not, but they had several different rooms of people showing how to make thumbnails, but a lot of them really didn't know how to actually do the research or the proper way to actually title those thumbnails. they knew they could tell you like, "Yeah, do this and make sure it's this and a face and whatever and a shocking thing, but when it come to actually putting the words on there and the words on the description, uh, most of them were kind of lost." But that's what you specialize in, right? >> Yes. Yes, I do have a little bit of a gripe with VidSummit. I have not been invited to talk about YouTube titles and I don't doesn't really feel like anybody covers it sufficiently, but most people agree it's like one of the most important things. I think it's the most important thing. Uh we can get into that if we want, but uh yeah, I mean there's an there's an art and you know it's only like 10 words, but those 10 words have some of the biggest leverage in like your online business. >> Well, before we get into that, let's just talk about some of the things that you're involved with. I know uh Kevin told me uh we always go back and forth about newsletters and he told me about your newsletter uh Creator Hooks and he said, "You got to sign up for that." He was really impressed with it. >> Cool. Yeah. Yeah. I um Creator Hooks was like it's like my old job before I started it, but like a newsletter version. So I used to work at a fishing company and I ran kind of like all the marketing for us and every every Monday morning we would have a a content meeting and >> so fishing supplies company or >> Yeah. Yeah. So we were we were kind of like fishing like education. Uh kind of kind of everything. So we had like a master we had a community, we had an ecom store um and we had courses as well. So, we had a channel just like teaching you how to how to catch saltwater fish. So, um pretty much anywhere from like Texas to Virginia. Um you know, just saltwater fish, snook, red fish, trout. And so we would just we would publish two videos a day. Um and every Monday morning we would meet and we had like four or five fishing coaches and we're like, "All right, the we're like, you know, these videos are doing really well for like these finance channels and these like entrepreneurship channels. Let's kind of let's let's translate these for our fishing channels and we'll do uh you know the same version of that. So like you know 10 stocks you should invest in uh July of 2026. You should do like let's do like 10 lures you should use to catch snook in 20 in uh in July. You know stuff like that where we're pulling different inspiration from different niches. And at the time I was looking to start a business and I had a uh like a just like a niche website and how much money I made was heavily dependent on how Google how much Google liked me that month. You know, sometimes I was making $10,000 a month, sometimes I was I was making $2,000 a month. And I hated just being um just kind of like relying so like 100% on the algorithm. So I'm like, "All right, what is the most algorithm-free business out there?" And a newsletter is, you know, probably like the the most straight up one. Like, you know, I email you and you open it hope hopefully. Um, you know, so that's that's why I got started in the newsletter and I'm like, "All right, well, if this is working for fishing, you know, we're taking, you know, all these different random thing these different videos from random niches and applying them or translating them to our fishing channel. I bet that this would work for other people." Um, so I kind of I made a newsletter. I sent out like a hundred cold DMs and emails like, "Hey, like would you read this? Would you read this?" and I think like five people signed up. Uh, but a couple of them liked it and here we are uh five six years later and I've been doing this full-time ever since. >> So, in that newsletter you do it. It's there's some tips in there, but you also have scoring and and you critique stuff and show sometimes like a before and after. Can you describe what's actually in the newsletter and how you're how you're doing that? >> Yeah. So, so the newsletter is is five videos that did really well on YouTube in the last two months or so. And then, um I break down why they worked, you know, how you could use it for your channel. And then also I give some other examples. So, like let's say a video was um you know, 10 tips to uh to to grow your Amazon business. Might be like, "All right, well, 10 tips to um to start a YouTube channel, 10 tips to uh you know, to catch snook this month, you know, stuff stuff like that." And that's a very simplistic example. Um, but but that's basically how it is. And and I developed a score to kind of compare apples to apples. Um, so like let's say like if Mr. Beast gets a million views, that's horrible. Like he averages like a 100 million views, a million views is is absolutely horrible for him. But if you know like if my small new channel or something gets a million views, it's like my best video ever. So So you need some sort of score to u to compare those. So, I ended up calculating like the average for a channel and then comparing, you know, how many views a video got compared to their average and that's your hook score, your outlier score. Um, and so that lets us compare apples to apples, like lets us see, oh, if you know, this video actually did really well compared to this channel's average. Um, you know, maybe it got 500,000 views, which is horrible for Mr. Beast, but great for, you know, for this channel and great for many other people in this niche. Hey, Norm. I've got a quick question for you. I'm trying to manage all my affiliate and creator programs from Amazon, from Shopify, from Walmart, but it's just a freaking mess. I mean, I've got reporting coming from here and there, all these different Slack messages. Do you know if there's like a unified dashboard where I can do this all in one place? >> Yeah, absolutely. And you're right, it is a mess. A lot of brands are complaining about that. But there is a place that has a solution. It's called Lavanta. And they let brands recruit partners, track performance, manage payouts, send product samples, and even run creator programs across every major marketplace all in one place. And guess what? Brands can spend less time on tools and more time making profit. >> Is that the one that you sent me a link for like a 10% off coupon? in a gold or enterprise plan a few few days ago. >> You got it. >> Oh, cool, man. I think I've got that link here. Was it lavanta.io/misfits? >> Yep, you got it. >> le van na.iomisfits. >> Awesome. I'm going to go uh go hit them up right now and get that 10% off. >> Perfect. Me, too. When was your aha moment when you just noticed that it's the titles that are working? >> So my it was actually my boss at the fishing channel. Um he beat it into me. He he was a copywriter and he had you know um you know some previous online business experience. He's like Jake like the title is everything. He's like, "If you don't write a great title, nobody's going to click our videos. And if nobody clicks our videos, we wasted all this time and money making these uh videos, and we're not going to get any sales, any leads, any views, any subscribers." Um, so he's like, he kind of put the pressure on me. And at that job, you have like a 90-day uh a 90day um little like trial period. And I almost got fired because I was so bad at writing YouTube titles. And I I finally figured it out thankfully like towards the end and I talked to him about it like after I'd been there for a year and he's like, "Yeah, we weren't sure you were going to make it, but like you know, you turn it around towards the end." And uh and I I I I always loved like the psychology of YouTube titles and the leverage, you know, like if you change like one or two words, that could be the difference between a thousand views or 100,000 views or a million views. um you know so there there's just so much power and leverage in in simple words which is just it's it's a just a really really fun topic to dive into. >> So what what's the difference between the title that's written across the top of uh you know in text across the top of uh right below the video and then what's actually the title or the words that are on the video. Are those one and the same or those two different things and two different approaches? So, YouTube shows you like, you know, when you're scrolling on the YouTube homepage or you you open up the app, you see the thumbnail and then the thumbnail often has text on it and then below that you see the title. Um, and then you might, you know, see the subscriber or the views, the channel. Um, but mostly it's the the thumbnail and the title and really kind of like the general and overall idea and and those are the most important things when people determine if they're going to click or not. So, we're talking about written title that appears below it, not a title that might or words that might not might be in the thumbnail because those could be two different things. >> Yes. And they pretty much use the same psychology. And honestly, like kind of everything uses the same psychology that gets people to click. Um, you know, I've used this like these tactics to rank number one on Google. Um, I use them in like my email subject lines. Some of my best tweets have been inspired by YouTube titles. um just because it it uses it uses like the same psychology of how do you actually grab somebody's attention and how do you get them to click. Um so it's all psychology but specifically I mostly deal with the title of a YouTube video. So Mr. Beast concentrates on the thumbnail. I believe that's correct. And the words that are on that thumbnail. So, your most important uh your your most important item is getting that title correct. His is the thumbnail correct. Is it like chicken and the egg? >> I think if I had to guess, his is more of the idea and the idea drives the title and the thumbnail. Um, and obvious like ideas are are huge, but obviously you can't always pick your idea. Like if you have a podcast, you know, this podcast is what it is. like you can't do anything that like you can't go, you know, feed 10,000 homeless people on this podcast. You need to figure out the most interesting way to describe this podcast that's going to make people click. Um, and in general, I think many educas more educational channels typically the the the title is more important. How do you keep keep that from being clickbait? I mean, there there's a lot there's a lot of titles that you click it and then there's no when you start watching the video, it's there's no payoff. Uh it's just just getting you to click. Uh, isn't there a rule something like first 3 seconds or 6 seconds or 20 seconds or something? Whatever that is. Uh, you need to actually pay off whatever you're promising in the title or tease it or you know I see a lot of people will take like like you said the podcast. They'll take we do this sometimes with this podcast. We'll take the something in the middle some really cool little thing that we think might be the hook uh or get someone and put that up front. Um, but then does the title have to relay to that? because the title might be, you know, um, how to, I don't know, how to how to score, how to how to get more views on TikTok, but then we take a piece from this interview where you're talking about, I don't know, here's the three psychological triggers or something. Uh, and those don't they're not coherent. So, what's the process there? What's the tech h how do you put those in order and and what should you be doing? >> That is a very good question. And it's a very big deep question. As far as as clickbait, there's a couple problems with it. So like everybody has their own definition of clickbait. Like there's, you know, some like my wife, she reads these uh articles on Facebook and she just classifies them all as clickbait articles. She's like, "Yeah, it's a clickbait article." And I'm like, "Well," and I like I'll read some of the titles. I'm like, well, these are just kind of crazy, but like they actually desri like the titles describe what's in the video or what's in the article. So, it's not clickbait. It's just it's it's a sensational title for a sensational story. And, you know, some people just think everything on YouTube is clickbait. So, it's it's hard. And like when then when you start writing like kind of defensive titles, you're like, "Oh, I don't I want to make sure that nobody, you know, accuses me of clickbait." then you start writing soft titles that nobody wants to click um and that are just kind of like very kind of bland and descriptive um and and then you're not going to grow as as much as you could. So it's it's it's a difficult thing. >> Well, isn't it clickbait though? It's >> it's not click if if you say something sensational like your wife's example where you say something that really is like gets you uh you know opens your eyes and it pays off. It's not clickbait. If it if it if it tells you, hey, you're going to make a >> here's how to make $10,000 in the next two seconds >> and inside the inside the video you don't talk about that at all. It's about how to invest in and you know how to how to start a lemonade stand or whatever. Um that would be clickbait, right? Is that be just to make sure we're clear for the listeners on on what the definition might be? >> Yeah. I mean, so like my wife's example, she just calls everything clickbait, even though it's not necessarily like the definition of clickbait. So like my definition and your and it sounds like your definition of clickbait is does the title or does the content deliver on the promise that the title made? Um, and if if I make a video saying how I made $100,000 in 7 days, many people might think that's clickbait, but if I actually made $100,000 in seven days, then it's not clickbait. Like, hey, here's here's exactly how I did it. So, but just because it's sensational and, you know, potentially hyper hyperbolic or or if people can't envision themselves doing it, then they might label that as clickbait. But I I think you and I both agree that clickbait is is content that does not deliver on the promise that you made in the title. >> Kevin was talking about how long it takes. Like, is it immediate? When when you're when you have that title, are people expecting within 3 seconds, 10 seconds that you're talking about it? I've always heard that you should talk about your whatever is in your title almost immediately. >> Yeah. I mean, generally speaking, you want to confirm. So, like someone is scrolling YouTube and they see a thumbnail, they're like, "Oh, that grabs my attention." And then they read the title. And when they're reading the title, they're thinking, "Do I want to watch this video?" And the title is what kind of like confirms like, "Oh, yes, I do want to watch this video." And then you click and then your intro has to kind of be like, "Hey, this is what you clicked on." and like yes, this video is what you hoped it would be. Now, let's get into the content. Um, so yes, ideally, you know, like for a podcast, you take a clip um of, you know, some somewhere in the middle, in the beginning, in the end, and you kind of you frontload that to kind of deliver on that promise that you made in the title. Um, and then you kind of, you know, get in the intro. So, I agree with that. Um, but >> so that in that in that regards then the title needs to be written first, not the clip bound first. Or if you find the clip, then you got to change the title to match the clip, right? Because a lot of people probably don't do that. >> Yes. I mean, in an ideal world, like just for for a podcast for instance, in an ideal world, you have five potential titles or like five or 10 potential titles. And like these are like that would be crazy if like if if this video was titled this like I guarantee you this would blow up for us. And then you ask your your guest questions kind of leading questions um that that coincide with all those potential titles and like one you're actually going to probably come up with an incredible article or a an incredible episode because you came up with all these like crazy ideas and then like the the the guests actually talked about those crazy ideas. So that would be that would make for really interesting content and like you know when you start with like what would make my audience click? What would they get super excited about then you know that's that's going to lead you kind of naturally into great content. Um but yeah I mean in an ideal world you're writing your title first. Um obviously in in podcasts and vlogs hopefully you know you might have five and then you kind of see where it goes and and which title actually matches your content. Um, but for the most part, yeah, you want to write your title and have your thumbnail and your intro, you know, all before you actually create the content because if you think like, all right, what is my audience going to be most interested in and what are they going to click on? Then you have to let that drive your whole content as opposed to, hey, like we made this cool video. Now, let's try to slap some interesting title. And if it's a little bit like too confusing, you know, you're kind of putting lipstick on a pig. And that's an easy way to fall into kind of like accidental clickbait is, you know, you didn't really know what to title this video, so you just kind of threw something together there at the end. >> Is there something wrong with putting lipstick on a pig? >> No. >> But but a fish that would be different. >> Oh, okay. But all I know on clickbait, if if there I clicked on a video that said how Nor made $100,000 in seven days, I know it would be clickbait. I know it's a lie. I >> mean much more much. >> So what makes someone click immediately? You just said that in that answer. Uh what makes someone click immediately? >> High high level three emotions that make people click. I call them the three clickworthy emotions. curiosity, fear, and desire. Um, so it's usually like curiosity plus fear, curiosity plus desire. Sometimes you'll have all three. If you can just really nail one, that's your kind of your best strategy there. Um, but those three emotions are like are just high level what make people click. And it's it depends on like your niche. So obviously, if you're in like the horror niche, you're probably not going to do any desire titles. It's all curiosity and fear or maybe just like straight up fear. Um if you are in like um like you know you're kind of an educational niche like you're teaching people how to start an online business you're probably doing a lot of desire you might do fear so like mistakes regrets you know those are you know FOMO um those are all all fearbased um and then like out of those three curiosity so I have like a database of now it's like a million videos but curiosity is like in apparent in like 60% of videos desire is like 40% and then negative ity is is or fear and negativity is like 30%. >> That's so and sometimes they appear twice because that's >> correct. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. It's not like they're not mutually exclusive. >> I know you're doing the math there. No. Yeah. So, you know, there's some combos there. >> Does do any titles that are in your database like in the in the years you've been doing this stand out to you? Like are there two or three you're like that was a great title? that just come to mind really quick uh that that that you saw that's just always resonated, man. I got to freaking use that in somehow in my stuff. >> Yeah. So, one of So, I I call these click triggers and click trigger is just like a trigger that made somebody click. Um but counterintuitive is my favorite. Um so, one of the one of my favorite titles is from um is from Noah Kagan. It's like how he built a billion dollar business working a normal day job or something or working a normal job. And I'm kind of botching that, but you're like how did he build a billion dollar business working a normal job like that doesn't make or that doesn't make sense. Or it was how how he made a billion dollars working a normal job. Something something along those lines and you're just like that's not true. Like I'm working a normal job. There's no billionaires that work a normal job. So you have to click and you've got to see like what's going on there. Uh, another example >> that would be cur. So that would be curiosity. >> Curiosity. Yeah. >> And desire does because you want to be a billionaire, right? Okay. >> Okay. >> Yep. Specifically curiosity. It's counterintuitive. So there so like I can tell you yes, curiosity works well in YouTube titles, but like that's not like that helpful. U so the click triggers are kind of like the level below. They're like the actional actionable tips. So like you can be counterintuitive, you can open a loop, you can use contrast. Um, so like Mr. Beast made a series that got like a billion views. It was like $1 versus hundred million dollar house. You know, there's that that contrast there. And curiosity or counterintuitive and contrast are very similar. But if you can pair opposites together or if you can challenge your audience's assumptions, then that builds so much curiosity. And you're and when you read those titles, you're like, wait, how is that true? Like that that's not true. I don't I don't get it. So you have to you have to click and you've got to figure out like all right you know what what's going on here. >> So does the title have is it more the to get the scroll stop it's the imagery but are the words that are on the image part of it's almost like in an email you have a subject line and a preview text. >> It's kind of like or sub or in writing you have the main title and the subtitle you know underneath it. Is it is that is it kind of like that? The curious, fear, desire is like the main title and then the subtitle is like you said this counterintuitive >> uh contrast. >> No, it's it's more of >> it's more it's more of like here are like the big categories and then here is how you implement those categories. The big categories, curiosity, fear and desire. Well, how do you implement fear? You can like talk about regrets. You can talk about mistakes. You can talk about pain points and problems. you know those that's how you act actually like do it. So like I like when I first got started with that fishing channel, I didn't know what made people click. So every day I would be submitting my my titles to my boss and I'd be like, "Hey, like what do you think about this title?" And every single day they were horrible. And I would spend like an hour or two hours and I would write up, you know, like five or 10 titles and I'm like I'm trying to like rack my brain. What are people going to be interested in for this for this uh this video? And every day he would write back with like a simple like, "No, actually use this one instead." And it was always so much better than mine. And I didn't really at that time I didn't know what made people click. And then now I know what makes people click is curiosity, fear, and desire. And I know how you implement or how you elicit those emotions in people is by using contrast, challenging assumptions, um, talking about regrets and mistakes and fears. That's that's how you act actually and tactically do all that stuff. Does it depend on the topic or are all three of those equal? >> 100%. Um, yeah, it depends on the topic, depends on your goal. So, like I haven't done that much research into it. I know Ed Lawrence, who's um who's big on YouTube, has done more research, but like if you want to get sales, oftentimes talking about desire will work better than fear or like you're just kind of straight up curiosity. So, if I tell you like, you know, how to uh how to, you know, make a million dollars online, that's going to be you're more of like a buyer, kind of like a more of a buyer mindset versus like how I lost a million dollars in my first business and that's more of like an interests. So, you know, so which kind of angle you choose depends on the topic and also depends on your goals. >> How has AI affected all this? when you started, you said you started what 2021, I think you said. >> Uh yeah, I think >> yeah, I was around, but it was compared to now it was pretty rudimentary. >> I remember tweeting I like tried like chat GPT3.5 and I'm like I'm safe. These titles stink and and now I'm like I'm an idiot. Um you know I I think they're they're very good. They're very good and they can certainly help you um help inspire you and think of, you know, other angles that you might not >> Yep. help you brainstorm. But I think still that and it it'll it'll write better than 95 right titles better than 95% of people. But if you want to be that top 5 percent, top 10 percent, top 1%, it's it's going to come from a human who knows your audience's um nuances, your channel's nuances, kind of what's going on in the market now. Um, I believe as of now, hopefully, I don't know, but uh but only a human can can write that that perfect title that captures your audience's, you know, thoughts and emotions. And that could be inspired by AI, but right now I don't think AI has quite the the the touch of like, bang, this is this is, you know, a really really good title. And I have an AI title generator as part of my software. Um, and it its best use case is inspiring people through a bunch of different angles. And my job is to tell it all the different angles to try um and then help inspire our customers of like, hey, you probably didn't think of this angle or this angle or this angle. and they're like, "Whoa, yeah, this is super helpful." >> I think I can actually do that. Do it, but you got to feed it the right stuff. And most people don't have either don't know how to feed it right or they don't have enough to feed it. >> Norm and I, here's my shameless plug that Norway says, I get in for Dragonfish, which is a company that Norm and I have. We do email marketing for for for brands, and we do warm and cold. And we have a system. It's about 24 different AI brains. So, we don't just sit down and say, "Hey, write a title for this video. It's about fishing and the the fish in July and the lures and give me some good ideas." Which is great. There's nothing wrong with that. We feed it 24 brains that are about 15 to 20 pages of research each on competitor gaps, on psychology from the reviews of the customer, from the mindset of different avatars. And so, it really hones in and it actually knows the customer almost as well, if not better than a human does. uh and then it uses that as its inspirational point and then generates the the uh the ideas. And you know that's that's overload for most people. They're not going to go to that extreme to create that kind of stuff because it takes a lot of months to develop that and develop a system that does that years. >> And so that that but you're right. I mean, the human still can have that that moment of that spark >> that that >> and it's it's that touch of just like one or two words that that really makes that email subject line like resonate with somebody. >> Can you give us an example example of that? >> Yeah. >> Um, so I guess just like one one example that I'm thinking of uh well I guess two two examples. So, like one from for my own channel a while ago, I ran this this like you know dog channel and I came up with an idea and the idea was uh the real reasons dog lick dog the real reason dogs lick you. Um and I was going to say the real reasons dogs lick their balls. I thought that >> because they can. Um yeah, the real reason dogs lick you. I'm like oh this is this is a this is an awesome title. And then I went to my buddy and he's like, "Well," and I told him, I was like, "Yeah, like the real reason dogs lick you is because like when they're puppies, like puppies lick their mom's face and uh and like that and that that tells the mom like to like puke like all the food that she just ate like into their mouths. Like that's that's gross." Or like, you know, the other version is like, "Well, they just like like licking sweat." So I'm like, "Yeah, it's disgusting." And he's like, "Well, what if you made the title The Real Reason Dogs Lick You is disgusting." And I think it was those two words that that probably made that title go from like really good to great. And that video got I think it's at like 8 million views right now. Um and you know I I would not have thought about that. I don't think you know AI would have just you know that that human of like well just add like this little extra word. Um and and I I think that that was huge. But then also like you know some of the some of the best videos on on YouTube right now a lot of them are conversational tone where like you know you might be like you know f it here's everything I know about sales and like AI is probably not going to to kind of go out of the out of the kind of lane that it's been trained on and just do like some normal interesting conversational title. Um, and I think and obviously like most channels aren't doing that all the time, but like and but like you know AI is pretty much like a pattern recognizer. So if you want to break your pattern um and like kind of you know like snap your audience like wait like wait what did he say? Like yeah that's kind of weird. Um AI is probably not going to help you do that unless you specifically ask it to and give it very very specific examples. But then at that point it's like you know you were bringing all the data to AI to just kind of confirm what you probably already thought. >> There was a about four or five months ago Norm and I tried a little experiment and we used Perplexity AI and we actually told it uh we wrote a a brief and we said hey go analyze our marketing misfits channel and take a look at our average number of views and a bunch of different things in there. And and one of the things we said is look for outliers. And by outliers, we mean this this particular video got 10 times the number of views as the normal video. And then go look at our competition. Go here's five or 10 of our not really competition, but similar type of p podcasts, you know, like uh I don't know, my first million and you know, Neil Patel and whoever other people are kind of targeting the same thing. And we said do the same thing. See what their average is and then find their outliers and see and then take a look at their outlier. So if Neil Patel did a a a podcast called how AI for dummies and then my first million did one how to use AI for the first time or whatever it's basically the same thing and both of those were outliers. Well that then means there's something to that because something in those words or that phrasing or that subject is working. Then we said now analyze our past videos and what title recommendations and thumbnail changes would you recommend based on that? and it sped out some pretty cool stuff and I think we experiment with I don't know where that's at right now but we experiment with that and I I believe it made a difference. So how how do you actually advise people like if they are stuck a lot of people go out and they just want to copy Mr. Beast like oh Mr. beast is doing this, let me just do that, too. That could be a big mistake. So, what's your process of recommending like what how do you see what's working and how do you apply that maybe to what you're doing? >> Yeah. So, whenever I start a new channel or whenever I work with somebody, the first thing I do is I create two lists like a a competitor list and an inspiration list. So, my competitors are you're Neil Patel, you're my first million, you know, people who are talking about the same topic as you. And then I create a list of of like an inspiration list. So that might be like, you know, for you guys like titles that have like the same kind of educational like style. So it may maybe other podcasts, it may be, you know, other just like, you know, for instance, if if I make a channel about how to blank, you know, how to catch fish, I'm looking at all these other how-to channels. So like for the fishing channel, I was looking at um you know how to make money in the stock market, how to um bench press, you know, I was looking at finance channels and and and fitness channels and you know entrepreneurship channels and so you have your list of your competitors and you get all the topics there. So like in your example, you get AI, you know, like you know, AI first or like first time using AI and then you go to your inspiration list and you know and this has like you know all all sorts of kind of different channels and you look for formats there. So you you look take your your proven topics and your proven formats and you marry those together and that's how you come up with great ideas. Hey, Norm, do you know any sellers out there that are just burned out during this uh ecom game? >> You know, I I know a lot of people that have talked to us, you know, when we go to events, and it's not only that, they don't know where to start. >> And who would you recommend they talk to? >> The first one that comes to mind is is Quiet Light Brokerage. And here's why. They're going to build you up. They're going to understand your company. And at the end of the day, you're going to know how to maximize your valuation. So, the very first thing you need to do is go and get your free confidential evaluation at quietllight.com. They're going to ask a couple questions. Uh you're going to meet up. It's one- on-one with uh somebody over there and then, you know, let the games begin. >> Awesome. What was that website again? >> It's quiet.com. >> Awesome. I'm going to head over there. If you're doing this manually, you were talking about, you know, it took you some time. What would be your average and how many title combinations would you be coming up with? >> Um, title combinations to write uh to like >> Yeah. to to get that one to get that one title, you know, would you go through 20? Would you take an hour? Would you take two hours? >> Yeah. Like I have found that almost every time when I write more titles, I come up with a better title. Um, so I'll try to write at least 10, 20 or 30. Um, I think my record is like 40 um, for one title. And but every time you kind of write a title and you think about, well, how what about like this angle? What about this angle? Um, you kind of you understand like what what is actually truly interesting about your content. And this is really helpful if you do this before you make your video. And then, you know, like you you start to realize like, oh, like this angle would actually be awesome for this video. Uh, I definitely need to include this like, you know, I need to kind of add this spin to my intro and like add this kind of lens or frame to my content or I need to like make sure that I address it. So, like for example, um maybe you're making a a YouTube video like how to start a YouTube channel without publishing videos. So, like because you you might think like, "All right, well, I'm going to make a a channel a video about how to make a YouTube channel and you kind of realize like what would people be most interested in?" People would be really interested in how to make a YouTube channel without publishing videos because that's a lot of work. Obviously, you can't just like add without publishing videos. You can't add like refuting that objection to your title after you make the content if you didn't actually like address that. Um, and your intro is going to be so much better if you say like, "Hey, like you know, this video is about how to, you know, um, make a YouTube channel without publishing videos." So, you're you're kind of you're un you're making sure it's not clickbait. You're delivering on that promise there in the intro. And also, you're making it way more exciting, like people are more likely to stay because, you know, you've you thought about what is the most interesting thing. So, so yeah, I mean, I'll take 20 30 minutes. Sometimes I'll take an hour or or or two. Um, if it's a really difficult one, if it's a really difficult one, that might be a sign that maybe you shouldn't make that video if you can't figure out an interesting way to like a simple and interesting way to frame it. Um, but yeah. Yeah. I try I try to aim for about 20 video 20 titles per video. >> Is there an ideal length of a title? I mean, because you could have a long title, but like if it like you said earlier, you want to catch them when it's over in the right hand side in that little scroll. So is it do you need to pay attention to one the total length and two where it breaks because so like say you have five words and which is it fits inside your ideal length suggestion but when Google shows it on a mobile phone only the first two words or only first 26 characters show up. So you want to like almost leave like an open loop or a hook in those first. Is there a methodology to actually doing that? >> Yeah. So my uh when I think about title length, I think about two different there's like a it's like a four box matrix. Like what is your audience age? So young people typically shorter titles. Old older people you can get away with longer titles because young people are just like just scrolling super fast where older people they're a little bit more intentional. >> Be careful. >> Um or old parts like you guys are, you know, you guys are taking your time. Old fossils. I I see Norm on his phone. He scrolls up and he's like it's like this and he's like, "Oh, it went too far. It went too far. How do I get it back down?" >> Then I you know the old one finger. >> So, all right. So, you got age, right? Uh not discriminating. >> What's an ideal length for a younger age versus older age? >> Well, it also depends on traffic source. So, if your traffic source, if you're trying to get um on the YouTube homepage or in the little sidebar on the right or below the video, um then you want to have have shorter titles there. And that's because it's more of like kind of interruption marketing. Um whereas if if you're trying to rank in search, uh people are actively deciding if they're going to watch your video because they're they're searching for something. So, you can you you want like a longer title like to maybe you want to say you want to refute an objection like how to get abs without doing sit-ups or how to get abs without dieting like that's naturally going to be a longer title because you're adding in more detail but that's the detail that gets people to click your video and not somebody else's you know so it might be 60 75 characters if you're trying to rank in search whereas if you're trying to um to land on the homepage and have somebody just like scroll and like stop your, you know, you want to stop the mid scroll, you might want to be 45 to 55 characters there. Um, and and that's, you know, it's a it's a huge spectrum. Typically, I think that people um overemphasize how long a title should be. You know, I've heard a lot of people like have hard rules like, you know, a title should never be 57 characters, longer than 57 characters. And you look at at many many titles and they're they're at 65 70 characters. Um and then regarding the truncation like the the break that you mentioned, where are they looking? Are they on mobile? Are they on desktop? Are they on TV? Are they on the sidebar search page? Like there's so many different factors there. So in general, and also, you know, if in this case, this isn't really the the place to open a loop. You kind of want to frontload your title. If it's going to be a long title, you want to frontload it so that the audience knows exactly what your video is about. Um, you know, if you say how to launch and start your first dot dot dot, nobody's going to click that because they don't know, you know, what your what your subject is. Um, so even though you know how to start and launch your first is, you know, a great setup, if if it's just way too long, then and you people don't know that, oh, is this about a YouTube channel? is about Tik Tok, is about an online business, like you email marketing, they don't know, so they're not going to click. Um, >> are there are there words or phrases that we should stay away from like these are title killers? >> Not really. Um, not specific words or phrases. Um, more it's more of tactics. So like um being like too wordy. So in my example, how to start and launch your first like start and launch there that's redundant you know just start or launch um you know if you're if you have you know how to launch your first business pipe in 2026 parenthesis for beginners. Um you know that's like a three-part title. You got a pipe parenthesis um you know a dash or whatever. That's that's way too wordy. So, you you want to be succinct um and just have kind of like one kind of complete thought or complete, you know, sentence there. Um when you just start to ramble on, like people aren't going to read your title. It's unclear of what your video is about. Um also, and probably like the biggest thing is is making is like writing your title that's like not for your audience. So like let's say like you're teaching people how to do email marketing. They pro they might not and I don't know that much about your business. So we're just going to let's say I had a business about how to do email marketing and people are coming to me for email marketing. They're not coming to me for TikTok. They might not be coming to me for conversion rates. They may or may not um you know but they want to to know how to grow their business through email marketing. And so it's very very important for everybody to know why their audience watches and then deliver on that premise. Um, and why your audience watches kind of varies. For many entertainment channels, the audience watches for the creator. For many educational channels, the audience watches for the topic. So, if I'm like a fitness influencer and if I'm telling, you know, if if I'm mostly like an educational uh influencer or people come to me to learn how to, let's say, like, you know, do certain um you know, hip mobility exercises or something. I'm getting old now, too. I got to mobilize these hips. Um uh so, you know, maybe I'm a hip mobility expert, but then like if I say, "Hey, here's how I train my chest." people like, "No, like I come to you for hip mobility exercises. Like stay in your lane. I only want to know about that." Although like maybe I'm more of like a lifestyle like I'm I'm an aspirational hip mobilizer guy. Well, now people want to know more like what's my diet? Like how do I grow my YouTube channel? Like what's my business like? If I'm a personality, then then yeah, I probably have a little bit more wiggle room in in um in what topics I can make videos about. But that really just depends on why people watch your channel. And you just you kind of have to know that and get a feel for your audience. Um you know they might force you into your lane. Um or they might not. They might just want to know kind of everything about you. And that is typically you know are you entertaining and educating them or are you just educating them? >> I've been told that I know a guy that says that uh Google since Google and YouTube are owned by the by Alphabet that Google likes to put one or two videos if possible on every search. Well, and this is the old day of the two 10 links. It's probably a little bit different now with AI, but it's still they cite it. Um, they like to put a video or two on on including the AI overviews or in the uh the search results. And so, they would go out and they would use tools like Vid IQ and some of these other tools to figure out where are the gaps, you know, which where are the search terms or the phrases that don't that don't uh have a video that match whatever I'm trying to accomplish. So, if someone does have a doesn't have a video on how to uh start a start an email campaign, there's no video there with that exact phrasing, they would make a title with that exact phrasing. So, it matches perfectly and therefore they they hope to then show up on the first page of results. Even though it might be a longtail thing, uh but if they get a couple hundred clicks, those are highly niched clicks and people that really want it. Do you do you see anybody doing stuff like that versus just trying to create a a good title that actually um makes them want to watch it, but actually it's more towards tying in that way from the the research side of things versus let me brainstorm some ideas. >> Yeah. I mean, and that's that's where we get into channel strategy. So, like what is your strategy? And I'm I'm a big fan of one audience, one format, one traffic source. So, in general, I if like if if if I were to make a YouTube channel today, if I were to make a a how to how to, you know, how to grow your business channel today, I would probably stay like high level and I would probably only want to target like how do I how do I just make interesting titles and all of my traffic is coming from browse like on the homepage and suggested on the sidebar And in like an ideal world, like YouTube wants this and I want this. I want somebody to come to my channel and I want them to binge watch every single video on my channel. Now, if I'm staying kind of high level and just talking about like, you know, desires and benefits and like, you know, um like experiments and stuff and every single video is is relevant to somebody, they're you they're more likely to binge that channel and YouTube is more likely to keep pushing it on the homepage and recommended. Now, if I start making longtail search videos where I'm hoping that someone is is searching for that, that's a stumbling block to someone binging my channel. Because if if I'm if I like let's say the search term is like um you know best email marketing software in 2027 like that's you're looking like if I if you already have email marketing software that video is not relevant to you. But if I say how I doubled my business's revenue through email marketing in 2027 or 2026 whatever that video is relevant to everybody. So everybody can watch that video. But but the more kind of stumbling blocks or search, you know, based content you throw in there, um people are not going to binge your channel as much, so you're not really going to get that momentum. Now, that being said, that may be a a better long-term strategy if all those videos are are ranking in search. Um but but it's also going to take kind of a it's going to take a long time for that to pay off. And sure, you might get views for the next 5 years. You might get, you know, thou, you know, 100,000 views for the next 5 years because you did some niche thing. Or you could kind of have this like cohesive bingeable channel and get 100,000 views every single month because, you know, because you're making just a very interesting channel that everybody can can binge and YouTube is sending you traffic right now. So that's a that is a a long very deep strategy question and and I I don't think everybody agrees with me on that on the you know one single traffic source. Um but but that's that's what I that's where I stand currently and and I like it. >> So for people who are not familiar with uh YouTube or creating the uh YouTube videos putting them on uh the channel how do you even split test or test your YouTube ch uh titles? So, that's a good question. Um, I mean, there's a couple couple ways. Obviously, YouTube has it natively now, which is cool. Um, but you you ideally you're not like testing the same exact thing. So, maybe you're testing like like straight curiosity versus like, you know, curiosity and desire or you're testing like desire versus fear. Um, so using those using like the different um click or uh click worthy emotions we mentioned like that can help kind of guide your your your titles, but um and then in my in my opinion like the best thing that uh that that AB tests do for you is not optimize and get more views for a single video. It's helping you learn what makes people click and what your audience specifically likes. So if if I AB test a video and I get, you know, I go from, you know, it was kind of flattening out at 10,000 views and then I did a test and then it jumped up to 100,000 views, that's cool. Like, you know, I I got an extra 90,000 views. But if I just like leave it at that and I don't take anything from that, well, then that's that extra 90,000 views is all I'm going to get. But if I say like, all right, well, here's like what I changed and here was this big difference. Now, I'm going to like keep testing that. And then now all of a sudden like your baseline is now 100,000 instead of 10,000 because you did a lot of AB tests. You studied them. You realize what your audience likes and doesn't like and then you applied that. Um so so that's I love AB testing for that specific reason. Um, but yeah, I mean just thinking about like what are these different angles? Like can I challenge their assumptions or can I talk about a desire? Like should I use I or we or you? Like you know those are all different things that you that you can test and um you know and that'll kind of help you keep narrowing and like kind of building your your YouTube title SOPs like all right like we know what our audience likes and and we deliver on that you know every time. you said something about you want them to binge it and I think that's a major part of the the uh YouTube algorithm is like how much more do they watch on your channel after watching one that's a major factor if you actually start showing up in other people's you know sidebar and stuff. So how long should a video be? I mean, you know, this our podcasts are an hour and then we cut those up into short little clips. Uh, and we have those on a on a separate channel. Um, and but a lot of people that watch the short clips, they're never going to watch the come the whole hour and and and vice versa. So, how long should something be? And and someone's not going to sit there and probably binge watch seven hours of Misfits podcast unless they're on a road trip or on a plane or something. Um, so how do you uh which is that's when it will probably happen. What's the optimal what do you what do you see or what do you recommend as optimal length on these to actually get the uh someone told me if you don't get is it 70% watch uh on a I think this might have been Tik Tok. I'm not sure if it was YouTube also but 70% watch time on a Tik Tok video you have your chance of going viral is next to none uh unless you get that 70% watch time. Um, it used to be 50. Yeah. Is there any kind of stuff or inside stuff like that on on YouTube? >> So, earlier I mentioned building your two lists, your competitor list and your inspiration list. And I would go to those lists and ask and for just like, you know, let's say my first million was on that list. I always kind of pretend that like I'm like, "Hey, like Sam and Sean, like what are how long should a video be?" And then I go and I look at their videos and I go see how long their videos are. And then I'll be like, "All right, um, you know, Jeff Nipper, Jeremy, like you know, some big fitness guys, what do you guys think how long a video should be?" And I go look and I see, you know, how long are how long are their best videos. So I'll I'll pretend that those people on my competitor list and inspiration list are my are like um advising me. They're coaching me, and I'll ask that question, and I'll look at their channel to get the answer. Um, so I mean there are, you know, some channels that make uh two hourong videos, some >> Joe Rogan, Joe Rogan and CEO Diary of a CEO, those are all usually a couple hours or more. >> Yeah. You know, so I would I would look at those and you know, if you're trying to be in that same space, um, you know, what are what are they doing? Um, and and it's different for everybody. you know, some and video length kind of comes and goes in style. Like, you know, for a while every, you know, couple years back, everybody was making short videos, then everybody was making long videos because the algorithm liked longer session time and longer watch time. Um, now it's like, oh, like, you know, now the algorithm just wants you to watch the whole video, so like make an 8-minute video. So, I think it really depends. Um, and I think it kind of depends on your audience, like where do they watch it, you know, and you can probably answer that by looking at your competitors. Um, but just like, you know, a real quick example, like a couple years ago, I was getting um allergy shots. I live in Florida. I was having like sneezing all the time, so I was getting allergy shots and I would read this newsletter. Um, it was a weekly newsletter and I would read it every every week when I got my allergy shots. Well, then I stopped getting allergy shots and I stopped reading the newsletter because it like wasn't in my it wasn't in my routine anymore. So, I think when you when you're thinking about um your audience's habits, like where are they watching it? What are they doing? Um and that can also kind of uh you know advise like your your editing style. Like do you need to have like crazy choppy insane edit edits because you're making an 8-minute video and somebody's like sitting on their phone like watching the whole thing or can it is it like a 30-minute video and people are you know like they're cleaning their kitchen or they're driving so they're like it doesn't matter what your editing style is. Um, you know, so I think just thinking about your audience and then looking at your competitors and seeing what they're doing, looking at your other similar channels, like you know, what are they doing? And that's probably going to give you a good answer. And honestly, like for pretty much all the questions you ask me, that could be my answer. It's like, hey, just go look at your competitors and your inspiration channel, which is great because anybody could do that for any niche. >> Yeah. It's also depends if it's a podcast or if it's uh on the vid on YouTube. you'll see um much different results. >> Yep. Agreed. >> So, what about thumbnails? What do you recommend people do? Write the title first, then create the thumbnail, or create the thumbnail, then the title? And when it comes to thumbnails, do you have any suggestions? I know that's not your main thing. You're you're a title guy, but I I'm sure in this you said you had a was it a million titles or something in your database? I'm sure you seeing a pattern of like some things that that work. Um, can you can you share a little bit of that? >> Yeah, I mean it's it's kind of the same psychology. Curiosity, fear, and desires like as far as what works. Um, and then as far as like what you're what you're trying to do or like or like what your process is for creating those. I have made thumbnails all sorts of ways. Um, the other day I saw it was a really I loved the thumbnail. It was like an image of a brain scan and I was like, well, how could I make a video with like a brain scan image um in the thumbnail and so that inspired like so I I started with a brain scan and then I wrote kind of a title that you know talked about psychology and then you know all right well that would be that'd be cool if we could do this psych psychology angle. We'll talk about this and then we'll have the brain scan in the thumbnail. So in that case it was inspired thumbnail first. You know, sometimes I'll think, um, you know, all right, well, you know, I I really like this title. You know, I, you know, I wish I knew this before starting a YouTube channel. It's all right. So, we're going to start title first. All right. Well, what should the thumbnail be? Um, you know, so you can kind of go all sorts of different ways. Um, you know, and it might depend on your niche. You know, for instance, um, in golf, you know, a really popular thing is like, you know, showing like, you know, a golf swing and like saying, you know, maybe it's like a grip that everybody does, and the thumbnail is like, don't do that. So, you're starting with like, you know, challenging an an assumption of like showing something that everybody does, saying don't do that, and then your title comes from there. So, so yeah, I mean, it really it really depends. I've I've came up with ideas all sorts of different ways. Um, but in an ideal world, the thumbnail complements your title. Um, you know, I kind of think of it as like I don't know if you've guys have ever seen like the uh the LeBron James Dwayne Wade Alley meme. Um, where you know, the the thumbnail is kind of like throwing an alleyoop to the title which like slams it home. Um, you know, the thumbnail is like it's like, "Hey, like here it is." And then the and then the titles would actually convert, you know, someone to to click and watch. But you got to grab somebody's attention with that thumbnail. Um, this might be a very oversimplistic view, but like if I had like a guitar channel, I would want to show a guitar in the thumbnail because that kind of like, you know, it grabs like the right audience. It's like, hey, just show a guitar. Or like like for fishing, like, you know, I'm just holding up like a big fish. It's like, ah, here like if you like fishing, here's a big fish. And then your title kind of does all the work, but the thumbnail by just holding up a big fish, it grabs the right audience's attention. Um, it kind of sets expectations like, oh, like this is kind of an interesting fish. Um, you know, and then, you know, you might have um, you know, like some text there if you know, if uh if it if it makes sense. Um, but I think the the thumbnail really needs to set the tone and the vibes and grab the right audience's attention. Um, and then the the title is what kind of confirms that click. >> Hey, Kevin King and Norm Ferrar here. If you've been enjoying this episode of Marketing Misfits, thanks for listening this far. Continue listening. We got some more valuable stuff coming up. Be sure to hit that subscribe button if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast player. Or if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify, make sure you subscribe to our channel because you don't want to miss a single episode of The Marketing Misfits. Have you subscribed yet, Norm? Well, this is an old guy alert. Should I subscribe to my own podcast? >> Yeah, but what if you forget to show up one time and it's just me on here? You're not going to know what I say. >> I'll I'll buy you a beard and you can sit in my chair, too. We'll just You can go back and forth with one another. Yikes. But that being said, don't forget to subscribe, share it. Oh, and if you really like this content, somewhere up there there's a banner. Click on it and you'll go to another episode of the Marketing Misfits. >> Make sure you don't miss a single episode because you don't want to be like Norm. >> So, do you have any YouTube advice that you completely disagree with? any YouTube advice that I've heard that I that I completely disagree with. Some there's some uh guru or some somebody stomping the pavement out there saying you got to do this this and this and you're like dude that's just total BS. You don't have to name them. >> Kevin does that a lot. >> Yeah. I mean a lot of people will say like oh like thumbnails like thumbnail is most important. Like I I disagree. I mean I for you know for some people like yes but I think the title is the most important thing. Um, and I think that's a rather unpopular um decision. Um, I but um I don't know. I don't know. I'm trying to trying to think. I mean, I think thumb titles being more important than thumbnails. Uh long titles are okay. You know, a lot of people, you know, like I said earlier, like I was talking to this guy and and I respect him. I think he's smart. and he's like, "Yeah, we actually never ever go over 58 characters or 57 characters for our for our titles." I'm just like, "Dude, you're kind of you're missing out a lot of opportunity and you're you're imposing unwarranted constraints on your title writing process. Um, because it can you can totally win with 70 characters." >> All right. >> Sounds like the title the thumbnail stops the scroll and the title closes the sale. That's yeah, that's how I think about it. >> Yeah. >> And and and the reason why I think that the title is is more important is because in the fishing example, it's very simple to grab fishing people's attention. If you just hold up a big fish, you know, you're going to grab everybody's attention. Um, you know, and it's so I think it's can be a little bit simpler. the the the hard thing is how do you write a great title that's gonna make people commit to, you know, stop mindlessly scrolling and getting dopamine to like actually consuming your content. >> All right, and on that note, we are at the top of the hour. Kevin, anything else to add? >> Uh, no. I I just think that, you know, I could see it now. a guy, he's using the fish example, and someone's holding up a soda bottle and you couldn't see what it was, but it's like, "Do you drink soda?" It's going to stop you, Norm, in the scroll, but then if the title says Coke Zero causes these seven illnesses, which three, which three do you have? You're going to click that. You see? You see, I learned something today. I like that. So, uh, Jake, if people want to reach out to you, uh, and and learn more, uh, about your I know you got a little tool and stuff on the newsletter. What's the best way for them to do that? >> Yeah, creatorhooks.com. Um, it's the free newsletter. Um, you'll figure out your way to the app there. Uh, from there, it's Yeah, you'll if you just Google creator hooks, you can find the newsletter or find the app. Um, I am on Twitter and LinkedIn. Uh, Jake Thomas, you can search me there. If you see a guy with a hat and a very handsome golden retriever, that is me. Um, and uh, yeah, feel free to reach out. >> All right, very good. So, one last question we always ask our misfit, do they know a misfit? >> And I think I might know a couple misfits. Uh, one, the first the first comes to mind is um Justin Moore. Um, he's the the sponsorship guru. Um, he's a sponsorship guy. Uh he's a he's a he's a good friend and he's very very smart in kind of all things business. Um but he's primarily kind of teaches people sponsorships, but um but he he goes into kind of everything off that and everything everything monetization. >> That sounds great. We've never had a guest on talking about sponsorships. >> He's a good guy. >> Awesome. >> Perfect. All right, Jake. >> Really appreciate you coming on and sharing today. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Thanks for having us. >> Awesome. >> All right, sir. I'm going to remove you. We'll see you later. >> All right. >> Somewhere there's a button. >> There's a button. It's It's >> There I got it. >> It's a red one, Norm. It's the red one. That's after. >> Cool your jets. Cool your jets. I got it. >> So, uh that that was good stuff. I mean, lot lot to do on YouTube. It's a different approach. And I think I the more I'm thinking about it, the more I agree with him cuz I was you always hear that people say you a t uh thumbnail first and the thumbnail definitely is important but that title I think uh it I'm relating it in my mind to like subject matters and preview text and stuff on on email and I can see see where he's at and I think he's on to something there and it's we should test that with uh with Marketing Misfits. We definitely will >> because you know the people that are listening to this right now, they're going to go and they're going to check us out. Where do they do that at? Uh >> what were we talking about today? YouTube. And you can see our long for or watch our long form uh videos at marketing misfits podcasts or if you're looking at uh 3 minute and under clips, you can go to marketing misfits clips. >> And there's something else something in written form we have now. What's that? Yeah, it's it's a newsletter, Kev. It's a newsletter. It's marketing misfits. Oh, no. It's misfits.news. >> Misfits.news is the website. You can sign up for that. That's free. Every new podcast every Tuesday, new newsletter every Wednesday. So, if you don't have an hour to uh to c to listen to the whole podcast, you can catch the newsletter and it'll summarize it plus a a past edition. We we do those by topic. So, every newsletter is a specific topic. It might be on email marketing, might be on lead genen, might be on YouTube, it might be on Facebook ads, whatever it is. Uh so check that out at misfits.news >> and it's pretty uh cool. We've got thousands of subscribers now, which is pretty awesome. >> Yeah, just start we just started a few months ago and it's it's picking up some steam. So check that out. Uh and be sure to check us out next week. We'll be back next Tuesday with another edition of the Marketing Misfits podcast. >> All right, everybody. See you later. >> Take care.