The Harsh Reality of Sourcing in 2026

I think customer validation is something that not enough people do. People get so excited about the product idea. They're so convinced that this is a great thing, but it's always a good idea, I think, to stop and, you know, see this is really a great thing. >> How is AI changing the game when it comes to sourcing? >> The sad truth about the US is it's almost never an option. The cost almost for every product is 3x what it's going to be overseas. We've gone down that path countless times with potential customers only to get to a point when they get the price, they get the quote, they're like, "We can't sell it for that." Everybody wanted nearshore and go to Mexico. And that's also been incredibly difficult. >> What about Vietnam and Indonesia? >> I got out of uh helping Amazon sellers source when I lost all my hair because of Amazon sellers. I mean, that's tough. Sourcing is a tough business. You're watching Marketing Misfits with Norm Ferrar and Kevin K. Welcome everybody to another episode of the Misfits podcast with your good old buddies uh Kevin and Norm. You know, I think this next guest, you know, this guy has done a lot. You know, Sweden is known for uh its music. You know, a lot of uh big music is coming out of the music production. I don't know if you ever saw the documentary on Netflix about Swedish music producers. It's like one of the hot spots in the country, but it's also a hot spot for some really smart people like our guest today who immigrated over to the United States from Sweden and has launched I don't think I think he's exited several companies launched a $und00 million promotional company. So you'll Norm you'll have a you'll have some good stuff to talk to him about because you were in the promotions business for a while. Built that to 100 million exited that started a company called Gima. co-founded a company called Gima which helped uh ecom sellers source products and I think he's probably one of the top foremost experts when it comes to sourcing and I think we're going to get some clarity today on what's happening and ways to actually do your sourcing and especially in world AI it's changed the game completely when it comes to sourcing some of the new Alibaba tools and stuff like that so I think this is going to be a very very interesting and very cool uh podcast with a very experienced uh entrepreneur and someone really knows his his game. You got anything to say, Norm? >> You said it all for him. I just You know what? >> You could go smoke a cigar now. If you want to just hit the balcony, you might >> as well. Come back. Just come back in an hour and hit the Well, you need to hit the button first. So, hit the button to bring Henrik on. >> And then after you do that, just go out to the balcony, smoke a cigar, come back in about an hour and just uh you know, do the wrap-up and we'll be good. >> That's all I have to do. How you doing? >> You do it so well. I'm doing great. >> You do it so well. >> He does do it well. >> Yeah. >> Oh man, >> you guys have something in common. You have Norm was in the promotions business and you were in the pro I think you might have been a little bit bigger than Norm, but Norm had a very successful promotions. Uh, so you guys you guys talk. I'm going to sit back. Norm, go ahead. >> Yeah. >> I don't know what to say. This is a first. I can talk. >> It is an interesting business. You know, it's a lot of people don't think about it much, but it's like I think now it's $25 billion industry in the US alone. It's all the, you know, trinkets and swag and branded merch that goes out there. But it's, you know, it's used in a lot of lot of interesting ways. And you know when I was so I was in this in the late 80s to the early early 2000s and we we we dealt we had a a niche. It was the Fortune Fives and we would go in and we would start off on the ground floor, get into the purchasing department, expand out and one of the and then we try to get their catalog programs. That word is their, you know, the cream of the crop. But we used to pack up our stuff in a hockey bag and it was branded. We'd have our logo on it and we'd go out trekking this. And I'm thinking, you know, nowadays, does that even exist? Like if I went into a Fortune five or even a medium-sized company, wouldn't they just go online and just buy it from Vista Print or something? Is that is the industry? >> I mean, it's it's interesting. I I I predicted that 15 years ago that that would happen, right? But it seems like that that there's still because the the buying is so distributed in across the organization, right? That's very every executive assistant or junior marketing person or events coordinator buys this stuff and often, you know, sure they could go online and buy it on Vista Print, but then, you know, if they get the wrong sizes or, you know, the logo doesn't look right or, you know, but the CEO hates the swag, right? Yeah. >> There's there's a lot of things that can go wrong, too. We saw that in in big organization because we like you, we worked with a lot of the Fortune 500 and they they want to drive compliance, right, from a brand perspective, from a procurement perspective, >> but buyers often went rogue anyway. They knew someone in the business, you know, they had an uncle, they knew a norm. >> Yeah. >> That would show up with a bag and gave them good stuff and football tickets or, you know, cigars, whatever it was. >> But, you know, this is so weird. I mean this is a great we could talk about this how things have changed. So in that business you would manually go out to the shows trade shows get your samples get the bring put them in the bag and you'd have a huge sample room. So you'd have tons tied up in samples take it over. And this could be this could be in Toronto. It could be in New York. It could be wherever. And you're taking this bag with all this stuff in it. getting your orders, then you have to come back and write it all up, then you had to do a mockup. And if the mockup or the logo or and we were using Electrostat, I think it was called back in the days where you'd scratch it on with a certain font, it would take forever. Then you'd have to curry it over to the company. They'd have to agree to it. Oh, fax machines came around. Uh, you know, that was that was handy. But the way of the world right now compared to where it was, it's it's night and day. It's so different. >> But it's amazing too to see how people even those individual sellers uh you know that was part of what uh sorry Boundless did. We we created a technology platform that allowed those independent sellers to join our network and then bring technology tools to their customers >> so they could all buy together and reduce cost and such. >> Um so I think that and and you see that all the time with with you guys and teaching the the Amazon sellers how to use AI. It's the adoption happens so fast even for the little mom and pops or individual sellers. Uh, and I think that's true for both the promo space and the and the e-commerce world. >> And that's going to be exactly what we're going to be talking about today because we're both in that business, too. We were both in sourcing >> um for for ages and just seeing how it's changed and how you guys have actually just done some amazing things with your sourcing. >> So now Kevin, you can join in that. That's my spiel. >> That's your spiel. I get to talk now. I I get to talk. >> Yeah. Now you know how I feel. So Henrik, you sold you sold Borderless for like 100 million plus, right? To Zazzle or something like that. >> Yeah, our revenues were over 100 million. We grew it from we started 2005 and and grew it uh we actually sold it 2014 and we hit 100 million revenues right after that. Uh I stayed on for a couple years um uh well more than a couple years, four years and then started Gamba u and left left Boundless and Boundless is still around today. I think is >> they they're $150 million revenue company or something. So, >> okay, I got to ask you a question. >> Did those four years suck having to hang around a little bit? >> He can't speak to that. He still got a little piece of equity, so he can't speak to that. >> Well, here's the thing. So, when I we started a business when the kids were small, and I mean, you guys know how hard it is to run a business. Um and I think you know after after how much you know nine years of that it was kind of nice to step into a role and be an employee for a little bit. You know I was still responsible for I was still running boundless that that was sort of the B2B arm of Sazzle but all the stress of fundraising and you know board management you know most of the cash flow stuff and all that stuff was kind of taken care of. So it felt like half the job disappeared and it was, >> you know, I was probably, >> you know, I could work 50 hours a week instead of 70. So I enjoyed that for a while, but then, you know, the entrepreneurial itch came back and I was like, nah, I can't do this. I got to go. I got to go start something again. >> Hey, Norm, I've got a quick question for you. I'm trying to manage all my affiliate and creator programs from Amazon, from Shopify, from Walmart, but it's just a freaking mess. I mean, I've got reporting coming from here and there. There's all these different Slack messages. Do you know if there's like a unified dashboard where I can do this all in one place? >> Yeah, absolutely. And you're right, it is a mess. A lot of brands are complaining about that. But there is a place that has a solution. It's called Lavanta. And they let brands recruit partners, track performance, manage payouts, send product samples, and even run creator programs across every major marketplace all in one place. And guess what? Brands can spend less time on tools and more time making profit. >> Is that the one that you sent me a link for like a 10% off coupon their gold or enterprise plan a few few days ago? >> You got it. Oh, cool, man. I think I've got that link here. Was it lavanta.io/misfits? >> Yep, you got it. >> L Va.iomisfits. >> Awesome. I'm going to go uh go hit him up right now and get that 10% off. >> Perfect. Me, too. >> So, Juan Gima, why did you get into sourcing? Do you have a background? Did you go to school for that or do you have a background in there or you just were good at that when you were running Boundless or was it >> why start I know you did it with it was like three of you I think originally it's changed since then a little bit I think but >> you guys started Gima to help primarily e-commerce I mean you do other stuff too but >> uh what was that how did that come about? Yeah, it really happened with towards the end of Boundless. In the beginning, we sold more traditional swag, branded merch, promotional products, but then we got some bigger customers that actually want to develop their own custom products. Um, we have particularly one very large nonprofit that used to want to develop custom products as part of one of their fundraising efforts. And that's how I ended up started traveling to Asia and China and going to factories and learning more about the sourcing business and you know saw how how it's relatively simple just to put a logo on a product but once you're creating something from scratch it's a lot more complex and a lot of more things that can go wrong and also saw a lot of you know individual sellers both in the promo space and e-commerce space that try to do it on their own and failed because you know if only only one step goes wrong in in the in the product development or or manufacturing process, you you may get a whole container full of product that doesn't work or doesn't meet their, you know, the compliance requirements or whatever it is. So, Boundless actually benefited from that in a couple of cases where where some smaller distributor had had, you know, screwed up an order, excuse my language, but you know, they recycled a container full of product they couldn't use and and that was the end of the company, right? they couldn't they couldn't recover from, you know, failing on a $100,000 purchase order. And that was part of where where it started jelling with me. And it's like, wow, there's a need for this. I mean, it's pretty easy to go on Alibaba and buy stuff that already exists. But if you're trying to create things that doesn't exist, there really isn't a great solution for you. you know, it's getting easier with AI, but there still isn't a good end to end solution to take an idea to a finished product um with ease and you know, low low risk and and affordable cost. So, that's what Gamba set out to do. >> When I I used Gima during COVID, uh we we we were developing uh some doggy poop bags. They're biodegradable doggy poop bags and uh we actually reached out and we had a system, but we reached out to you because you guys have different things you do. you'll do it from A to Z like you say I have an idea for this and uh and then y'all like you you use a network of like at that time I don't know if it's the same now but you used a network of freelancers some of these guys like >> designer for Nike or something you know exactly he's moonlighting for you guys at night designing >> packaging designer product designer whatever and you put together the whole uh bill of materials and the whole sketches and the whole everything and then >> client would approve it then you'd go find the factory and then if they wanted you would coordinate the entire shipment and coordinate it all the way from A to Z all the way into Amazon from concept to someone's head all the way or you just take pieces of it and I could just come to you and say, "Hey, I just need some product packaging design." That's what you guys did for us. >> Uh and then and you I think you work with a lot of like Kickstarter type of people and those type of people as well. >> Uh and how is that business today? I mean, because the whole e-commerce world, that whole get-richqu scheme and everybody's coming in needing products. Has it evolved now and had to change and you had to pivot a little bit with Gima? >> Yeah. Yeah. A lot has happened. You know, we started GMA in 2019, I think. Uh, I was full-time in 2020 and, you know, the world's changed a lot since. >> I'd say in the beginning, we we were very focused on Amazon. We went to Prosper, we went, you know, and that was the era of the the Amazon aggregators. So there's a lot of money going in the space. There's a lot of people that were willing and able to develop new products. So there was a there was a great business for in the beginning. And then I'd say over time as I think Amazon got more and more uh saturated and mature and competitive uh and very price driven. I guess it's always been price driven. But then we saw a bit of a shift that um it was almost more folks there were more Shopify sellers uh DTOC folks that really cared about the brand and the quality and building you know a lifestyle brand. They were willing to invest more in unique product development because they wanted unique products. They were not just trying to get another skew to market and sell it. So, I'd say over time it it shifted, but and now I think you know you know this better than me, but I'd say most Amazon sellers probably sell on Shopify, too, and other channels. It seems like it it's not as compartmentalized as it was back then. >> You know, I I remember I got out of uh helping Amazon sellers source when I lost all my hair because of Amazon sellers. you know, there's there's definitely a learning curve and a lot of these courses just made it too easy for them to think that it was easy. >> And they come to you unprepared, not knowing what they want. uh they should have been on Alibaba, but they come to you and you give them a sheet, you know, just okay, let's get this all down, answer all these questions, totally unprepared for the cost, totally unprepared for anything, want it for nothing. And during the whole process, they're calling you 30 times for changes. >> And I don't know if it's still like that. I've been out probably since I don't know just after co I just uh like there was just so many I love working with Amazon sellers in other areas but for sourcing it just didn't seem like we were trying to educate we were we tried to put out a course um just to get them to understand how did how did you handle all that I mean that's tough sourcing is a tough business >> yeah and I'd say we we learned a lot and we we went through all the you just just mentioned, you know, in the beginning, we were eager to grow. So, we took on almost any customer that would come in, you know, almost regardless of the product, regardless of the budget, >> and we learned pretty quickly that that was the big mistake, >> right? So over the over the years we've figured out that you know unless a customer really have the wherewithal to go all the way from idea to finished product unless they have you know money allocated for branding and for marketing and certainly have to place the first purchase order in addition to the gamba fees we shouldn't be working with them at all because you know often this is a mom and pop it's an individual it's a professional they're not like proctor and gamble right they're using their their savings to invest in this product and we're not doing anybody any service if we take their their hard earned money and they only get halfway down the journey, right? Then it's just a total waste. So I think we've gotten a lot better at and we use AI for some of this too to really >> accurately estimate okay if this is the journey you're going to go through if you're going to create a pair of glasses with a flashlight on them and whatever it is right >> that our engine spits out the very detailed project plan that these are all the steps that you have to go through and then like you mentioned Kevin we have a whole network of designers and engineers all over the world. So we for for a glass glass project we would bring in somebody worked at Wby Parker or something like that. So you get that very detailed expert and that's something that I don't think that AI knows how to do yet. you know the the have it I don't have the battle scars uh the knowledge that a true a good engineer or product designer has because they also know all the things that went wrong and the things that didn't work the materials you can't use and the the type of design mistakes you can make that's going to double your tooling cost and all that stuff >> and the creativity >> yeah for sure and knowing that yeah this this we could actually do this we could have these bend upwards instead or you know whatever it might be right that somebody understands domain is going to be a much better partner than um you know somebody find on Fiverr or Upwork, right? >> A big thing like you're saying the Amazon sellers like you you mentioned it a minute ago that a lot of them are just looking for that opportunity to sell a product and >> stick their name on something on Alibaba, maybe change the color slightly, change the foam shape or something like that. Not develop from scratch. When I started selling third 3P on Amazon, I've been on Amazon a long time, but 2015 I launched five brands and three of those were custom developed products. A dog bowl, uh, my big one was a a Apple Watch charging stand that had just Apple Watch just coming out as a $90 product with >> $30,000 of tooling. And it's a process and most of these sellers don't understand that and don't understand that it's a risk, too. >> And you see it with Kickstarter and stuff. People launch stuff on Kickstarter and then I get a litany of excuses of why it's delayed and they're sending pictures from the factory. I'm like, "You guys just making bull. You don't know what you're you don't know what you're doing." >> Um, and then when uh around the same time you started Gimba, Steve Simson and I did product sabance and our whole thing was >> I remember that. >> Our whole idea was like, "Okay, we'll do the sort cuz Steve was well connected in China >> and I was good at finding the opportunities on Amazon and Helium 10 and stuff." So we would I would find them, give them to him, they would source them, we'd get the product people. We had lots of people pay us money and we're supposed to get a royalty on each one. That's how we you know we charge an upfront fee of a few thousand bucks or whatever it was depending on its potential, some of them more. Uh and then they we get a royalty and we never got paid but from one person on the royalties. Half the people never launched the product. >> Yeah. Yeah, like one guy remember he's like he ordered product came in and it was all bad and said why he was bitching at us cuz everything was screwed up. He said, "Well, did you do an inspection?" He's like, "No, I just trusted you guys that you said the factory is okay." >> Yeah. >> No, you got to do an inspection, dude. And >> yeah. >> So, it's it's that >> a lot of people don't understand what it takes, but it's so critical, especially in today's world, to be differentiated. >> Mhm. uh I mean you said uh somewhere that you know reselling is dead or basically and that you need to I think >> to have a moat in today's world you have to have differentiation which could lead to branding and you have to have distribution those are two big moes what do you what do you think about that when it comes to sourcing and product development >> yeah for sure I mean I don't know what if reselling is dead or not but it certainly is a lot harder to make any money on it right where where 10 years ago you could find un unexploited niche inside Amazon, then like you said, go on Alibaba, find it, put your logo on it, and you know, be a million dollar seller pretty quickly. I think that's harder and harder. >> Oh, that's what you call reselling. Okay. Yeah. Okay. >> Uh or I mean, I guess there's different >> Some people call that private label. White label. >> White label. Yeah, private label if you make some kind of modification to it. Uh but yeah, I think it like you said, I think it's really hard and it's so particular with with all the tools, you know, Helium 10 and Jungle Scout and uh um there's a bunch of them out there. It's it's pretty easy to find, you know, to research and come up with it. And it seems everybody comes up with the same idea. Everybody's trying to sell the same thing at the same time. And then it's just the race to the bottom, right, from pricing. And it's really hard to to build any margins that way. And if you're really trying to create a a brand, a company that you're going to be able to sell to someone one day and have an exit, I mean, you almost have to create your own differentiated products, multiple product under one brand that stands out, that's different from what everybody else is selling because otherwise, you know, who's going to want to buy a company if it's just a random collection of of, you know, items that they sell on on Amazon that doesn't really have any value to it, right? U it's more of just an advertising play at that stage, right? >> Um so so I do I do believe in in custom development. I I do believe like you said it's hard though so people got to be careful. I mean you you have decades of experience you're able to pull it off but like you said it's not easy and like I said earlier if only one step goes wrong it's the whole thing can go south. So that's what that's why we developed the system and and a a very strict methodology of how to do things in which order to do them. Uh and that goes all the way from from ideiation to you know product design to do design for manufacturing and then finding the right factory etc all the way to QC and finished product. So to try to minimize or maximize the odds of success by having a proven methodology and experts that know every step of the way. I think we we see higher success rate than than anybody else there that I'm aware of. Um, of course there's no you can't guarantee 100% success because you know creating new things is by inherently difficult. Um, uh, so you know u but but but you can definitely optimize your success by by doing things the right way. And one thing that we we we call it D2ME people call it different things but you know that that private label area is interesting. White label the way I define it's just slapping your logo on something or changing the packaging right private label is when you make some minor modification to something to make it yours. Maybe you put a handle on a cup or you know you change the materials or something u so it actually becomes you. It's your own product but it's based on somebody else's product. We've taken that a step further and that's what we call D2M design for manufacturing that if you have an idea for a new product, we identify a factory that makes a similar product and then we work with that factory to quickly iterate on how to how what's possible right within within the confines of that factory and and their machinery and what they can do. And we find that if you iterate quickly between a designer and a factory like that, you can come up with new versions of the product that are uniquely yours, but they're not created from scratch. And I know I mean you've probably done this yourself, but the sort of experienced sellers and brands, they they know how to do it, but I'd say the average seller doesn't necessarily how to do it. And that that's why we developed the methodology around it, so we can do it consistently and quickly. And that really reduces the time and the risk and the cost with developing a new product because if you do it from scratch, you have to develop all the drawings and the prototypes and all that stuff, right? It it can become expensive and it takes a long time. But if you start with what's actually possible, what's feasible, then you know you can get a unique product faster, better, cheaper. You know, I I remember um working with my partner at the time, you know, him Aphalabi, >> and we would go out and we would solve all these problems very similar to what you were doing. And one of the one of the issues was uh our our buddy Steve Simson would call this a Scooby snack. You get a small portion of the sales, you know, that was it and very low upfront costs. and people just couldn't figure out or didn't want to pay this small portion. And then I listened to your model and it's the same sort of thing. And this is just a comment. If you're a seller out there and you're listening and you're trying to justify paying for it through a company like yours or doing it yourselves, >> well, I I have one single answer. Don't do it yourself. You're going to pay for all. We call it the Amazon tax. All these little things that sneak sneak up and bite you in the butt. And you know, like for example, who owns the molds, the type of paperwork, the inspections, what type of shipping when it comes into port. I mean, there's so many things that you have to think. There's hundreds probably >> protectors and and case boxes to protect. I mean it's it's >> it's just >> and what would I pay for that to have the convenience and the understanding of getting it in there and it's safe. Now selling is and marketing would be on the seller >> but you get it there and you get a fair price for what it is and uh I think just so many people don't think of it that way. You know they just like a plumber you know they come in two seconds worth of work and you got to pay them 300 bucks. But uh and people complain, but try to do it yourself. >> And I think sometimes people miss the time, too. They're they're >> pennywise, but time foolish, if you will. It's like, yeah, I'm going to do it myself. And next thing you find yourself 18 months later, and you still haven't find the right factory or you, you know, can't get anybody to get the prototype right or, you know, whatever it might be. That 18 months is an eternity in today's world because everybody has access to the same information. And if you have a good product idea, odds are there's another 20 people that have the same idea, you know. So if you have an idea and you can validate that idea, I urge people to go as fast as you can, pay a little extra to get the product to market faster because time is money. And I think that's sometimes the, you know, the solar entrepreneur or the first time entrepreneur, they don't quite see that until they find themselves two years later without a product at market. And you know that's and then maybe the opportunity is gone. Somebody else has done it. >> What's the big aha when someone comes to you and they hire you to do an a toz service and you're like all right we're going and then you you tell them hey this process is 8 months and they're like what what are you joking? Or they you tell them oh this molding is going to cost this much. Like why? It's just a piece of plastic. What? Yeah. >> What what's a big one the big like always like you got to be joking. You got to be kidding when you tell them that. Yeah. Well, that's your favorite customer is almost the the the company or the person has gone through it once before. They realize how hard it is and then they come back and say, "Okay, I decide I'm going to take help this time." The first time entrepreneur is often challenging, right? And unless they come from procurement or have worked in something like this. But yeah, we we just educate them by showing them these are all the things that have to happen and if you don't do this right then, you know, this next step is going to be screwed up or if you don't do this then this can happen and and not everybody comes around you know we a lot of people say it's too expensive, it's going to take too long and some of them come back nine months later and say I'm ready now. But but it is an education effort and and if you have I mean some people don't have the budget for it, they don't have the patience for it and then they probably should should not do it. Um >> are there any products that you guys have designed you can freely talk about that we might know like some well-known >> uh something that you guys were kind of behind and helped develop? >> Yeah, I mean there there are hundreds of them on our website uh gamba.com. If you go to our our case studies, we we we work with over I think it's close to 1500 customers now. So several hundred products that we helped bring to markets. You know, most of them are not household brands. Most of them are, you know, Amazon sellers, mom and pops, smaller c customer, >> but you know, we have we have some that are multi-million dollars. Uh >> is there anything that you could name any any or a type of product like we did help develop the first brick oven brick oven pizza oven or something or or Yeah, we're I mean we're big in our top category is the home and kitchen. Uh we worked with um uh Hexclad um in in the home and kitchen area. Baby uh is huge. Ali World I think the bestselling swaddle for babies that's out there. Um Grander Bags is you know recent it won out I think a home and kitchen award for the best brag. So, uh, again, not household names. We worked with Iglow, we worked with, you know, uh, Papaot, we worked with, but most of them are are SMB brands that, you know, we we Nike wouldn't hire us to do it. They have the people internally to do it, right? Um, uh, but I can send a link or maybe we can post a link in the in the comments under the the podcast with a link to all the all the projects we completed. They're currently being sold today. How's AI affecting everything now? You got what's AIO or whatever Alibaba's new thing that they're pushing and what how is AI changing the game when it comes to sourcing? >> Yeah. Well, I think it's a drastic change quite honestly. I think that the uh yeah the or the Alibaba's Axio is is pretty powerful tool. There's, you know, probably a dozen of them out there that >> For those that haven't heard of that, can you tell the audience what what that does or what? >> Yes, it's basically Baba's um B2B engine that you know companies can can sign up for. I think it's you can get a free free trial. Um, and you you basically have access to all of Alibaba. You have a prompt interface that you can ask questions. You can upload images. It'll find similar products. You can search for factories. Um, so it's it's pretty powerful. It's like Alibaba on steroids. Um, I think the downside of it is still all Alibaba data, right? So, I mean, you and I know that a lot of the factory ratings on factories in Alibaba are not accurate. You know, their sales figures by region are not accurate and Axio just repeats whatever is on Alibaba. Um but there's other tools that are out there that are you know pulling the import data and uh that are more accurate uh and provide sort of an unbiased view of the factory. Um so there's no no lack of tools to find factories. So it it's it's not hard to find a factory anymore. So I think you know traditional sourcing agents are probably challenged today. you know, I don't know why you would would use one necessarily unless they provide something in addition to just finding the factory, right? So, but what Gamba we always say is that yeah, it's easy to find a factory, but can you find the right factory for your product? And do you really know that this is a real factory or is it just an assembly place? Or, you know, do you know that they're making the product in that factory or not? and being able to put have feet on the street to go into the factory, make sure there's no child labor, sleigh labor, or you know that that they act uh compliant with with regulations, etc. And then then that particularly if you're making a product that's differentiated and different, you you need to work with a factory ideally that can actually help you with design and engineering. And you know a lot of factories are just you know making the same product over and over again and they don't necessarily have internal folks that are good at evolving and changing and uh developing new products. So I think sourcing or AI is absolutely changing the front end of the sourcing process when it actually comes to partnering with a factory, finding the right partner, working with that partner to make sure your products made the right way >> and comes out on, you know, at the end of the production line and it's QCed and all that stuff. I don't I haven't seen any AI tools that does that yet, right? >> No AI robots doing inspections. >> How many eventually? I'm sure they will, but I haven't found one yet. >> You know, in China, you never know. They're they're more advanced than we are in the States on robots. >> Yeah. I just read about a uh there's an auto factory in China that there's no people in no people ever touch the car. It's made all by robots. >> Wow. >> There's some people that oversee the robots, but nobody touches it. >> So, if I get an idea now for a product, I can go to AIO or a similar tool and say, "Here's my idea. Render it out for It'll render it out. I can tweak it a little bit, hit a few buttons, and then Alibaba or whatever the tool is will then go out and say, "Oh, these factories are the ones that are most likely that can actually make make this for you." >> Yeah. >> Would you like me to uh submit a proposal for you? >> Start chatting with them right there. Um, and talk to them and >> it'll show you a mockup. It was per This is perfect for the promotions business, you know. Oh, here's the whole brand lineup, you know. Here's the t-shirt. Here's the cup. Here's the hat. All done for you right in front within seconds. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think that the I think it's like you said, I don't think I think Alawa is a pretty powerful tool. If you if you're trying to get something, you buy something that already exists. You know, you can find it, you can find a supplier, they can send you a sample. I I think it's a great place to start uh for a lot of type of products. Even if you're making custom products, it's not a bad idea to order samples from a different factories just to see the quality and what they can do. But then at some point in time, you actually have to establish a direct relationship with that factory and work with them, making sure it's a factory can do what you needed to do. >> Hey Kev, have you ever felt trapped running a business or just burnt out? >> Yeah, that's happened a time or two. Um, how how would I find out if what I have is actually worth something if I'm looking to to exit it? >> Well, I think one of the best things they could probably do is go to an expert that understands the market sentiment right now. First one that comes to mind is is Quiet Light Brokerage. And here's why. They're going to build you up. They're going to understand your company. And at the end of the day, you're going to know how to maximize your valuation. So, the very first thing you need to do is go and get your free confidential valuation at quietllight.com and then, you know, let the games begin. >> Awesome. What was that website again? >> It's quiet.com. >> Awesome. I'm going to head over there. >> Is 3D printing the samples still big? I mean, I made when I made the Apple Watch that Apple Watch charging dock, I actually had 3D samples made uh 3D printed samples made of that and the dog bowl and did testing, you know, make sure the wires fit and all that kind of stuff. Is that still a big deal as well? >> Yeah, I mean, particularly if you have, you know, some level of engineering, whether it's mechanical, moving parts or electrical that, you know, uh connected to components, then I think prototype is absolutely essential. I mean, it's different if you're making pair of glasses maybe. Well, even that is mechanical components, but um you always have to prototype as much as you possibly can. You know, more often than not, we recommend you prototype at the factory because, you know, otherwise, >> so the machine sample or something like that, right? Or there's a word for it. Yeah. Because if you work, you know, you can find a prototype shop in the US and they create the prototype, but then you have to ship it to the factory in China and they have to create it from scratch and they may not have the same components, tolerances or all that stuff. So, it's kind of you're you're recreating it, have to create it twice, uh, if that's the approach. Uh, of course, it it it all depends on the type of product. you know, we go from very simple products like a spatula to highly complex products like a kitchen, you know, kitchen machine that can cut and slice and, you know, have have hundreds of components and both electrical and mechanical. So, so there's a big range. Um, but for sure whenever there's some kind of moving parts of electronics, you you got to prototype it, test it first. when you uh when you develop the product and you've got a couple orders in, is there a time where you recommend the seller to go and meet with the buyer in China or the manufacturer in China? >> Yeah, 100%. I mean, if you're particularly if you're making custom product, something that's unique. I I don't know if you're just buying white label or or small modification, private label, I don't know if you you necessarily need to travel over to China, but if you can, of course, it's always better. I think it's a >> eyeopening experience. Uh there's no way to understand manufacturing better than actually going to the factory. And um and if you're making anything of any level of complexity, then yeah, 100% I would go to the factory and be there while they're making the first when the first products come off the you know and conveyor belt. Um and meet the factory owners, shake their hands. I mean relationships are still even in this AI internet enabled world in the end it's people working with people and you have to develop a partnership even if they're in China and they speak a different language right these are you're trying to build a business and these are the people that making the product that is at the core of your business it's kind of crazy if you don't treat them as partners and if you don't go over there and and build a real relationship that's your supply chain and if you can't travel, you know, you can use somebody like Gambo or or someone, but but you have to have feet in the street, feet on the street in in the factory, you know, people going into the factory and shaking hands and making sure the products actually made there because, >> you know, so as I do often, they have a a showcase factory that, you know, looks nice and it's clean and everyone's of aged and then, you know, where things actually happen, it's somewhere else. Mhm. >> that you don't want to you don't want to go there. And you know, there's only one way to to confirm that is by having somebody that you trust go in there. >> So you you you'll love this, by the way. Uh so I am I'm a certified pearl grader. So really not a lot of people know that, but uh one of the uh the places that uh visited in China was a pearl farm. Very weird. But the reason you'd love this is in their farm they had the they just had embroidery machines. So product would come in, they'd embroider and then they'd have all these pearls that they were farming. So it's just you know it's it's you never know where that factory is going to be. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I mean some of the conditions there is not they're not great, right? We I've been to some factories in India where it was hard to watch you know the conditions that people work under and and the dirt and the air and >> uh it's uh you know we go there for lower prices but you know the the the you have to be prepared that the working conditions are not going to be like you you'd see in the US. >> Yeah. >> But you got to make sure at least it's legal and not unethical. Um, >> so when should you source in the US? When should you source in China? And when should you look at something besides the US and China? >> Yeah, great question. The US is I can't tell you how many requests we get for the US. Um, particularly, you know, when the was it liberation day after that, you know, with 180% Chinese tariff or whatever it was, like our our lead volume went through the roof. Everybody had to get out of China. The the sad truth about the US is it's almost never an option, right? It's the cost almost for every product is 3x what it's going to be overseas. And we we've gone down that path countless times with with potential customers only to get to a point where they when they get the price, they get the quote, they're like, "Yeah, but that's not we can't sell it for that." Um so we tried and we continue to try but it's it's really difficult and then I mean as you know most American manufacturers are not really set up to create finished consumer goods. Most of them are sub vendors to some bigger company uh that that make things. So it you don't have what you have in China and and I don't think you have that in Mexico either. It's like we everybody wanted nearshore and go to Mexico and that's also been incredibly difficult. You know, it's it's if you're Nike and you're coming down with a $10 million purchase order, yeah, you can find a factory and they will set up a production line for you. But if you're a small seller, they're trying to place a $25,000 order, there's not a lot of factories in Mexico they're going to going to deal with you. >> Mhm. >> And most of them don't have a website in English. Most of them don't have a catalog that they display. Most of them don't have an Englishspeaking customer service version. Right. So that's, you know, what China has built over the last several decades is it's just really, really good. Uh >> what about Vietnam and Indonesia? >> I mean, definitely we're excited about Vietnam. Uh, you know, they a lot of Chinese factory owners are, you know, have opened the factories in Vietnam now. Uh, so they brought a lot of knowhow and, you know, in in Vietnam, they have these big industrial parks that, you know, make sure things are sustainable and, you know, coordinated. So we we're we're bullish on Vietnam. Um but you know often it's you have to speak Chinese to go to Vietnam because the factory owners don't speak Vietnamese. So it's you know it's it's an interesting dynamic. Uh and often you know the raw materials or the components still come from China. So it's not like you're ridding yourself of of the dependency on China in many ways. Um India, we're we're bullish on India. I think there's a lot of potential there. Uh I mean today it's still mostly in in you know textiles and uh you know non electrical components but we I was just visiting a super impressive uh electric vehicle factory in you know outside of of Delhi. So I think that India's coming there and I'm I'm confident in the next couple decades they're going to they're going to evolve and get closer. I think uh but today I'd say most of our projects still go to China, >> you know, particularly if it's electronics or um you know electromechanical products. >> Are you going to do a a plan B a second country just in case something goes ary? >> I think so. I mean it's great. um if you can if you have the bandwidth if you if you can place purchase orders in in two countries and you know I'd say most customer we see have to push themselves to be able to reach theQ and place the first purchase order often um and then the next purchase order doesn't come in for another 6 months or so um if you're sort of at that level I think it's probably premature to try to diversify you got to get to certain volume I think before you can do it. Once you do um it's it's absolutely particularly in today's tariff landscape an awesome idea and uh definitely helps you you know I know companies gone under where you know during the liberation day times where you know you have a you have a container on the on the ocean and tariffs go from 50% to 100%. And now you get a bill from customs that you have to pay. you know, it's there's not much you can do about that, unfortunately. Hopefully, we're we're in a little more stable environment now, but who knows? It could change tomorrow. >> So, if if you can manufacture in two places, 100% I do it, but but also it doesn't necessarily solve all the problems. >> What are the challenges of actually not being in China? Is it the the wheels just aren't greased as much for the whole from raw materials to factory to to uh distribution? Is it because the labor costs are higher? Is it lack of raw materials? Um what is >> all of the above? >> Yeah. >> Right. I think it's um I mean China has just it's all connected and there has different regions you know where you have you know electronics or you know uh plastics or whatever it is and there you have you know not one two five they have like 50 factories there and all the factories supplying their stuff. So it's just this ecosystem uh you know like Silicon Valley is for startups. uh China has all that built and then the high-speed trains and everything's connected and the ports and all that stuff uh you know to get a sample out of India will take a lot longer than to get it out of China, right? Just in India a lot of things go on trucks or super slow trains and you know the ports aren't as sophisticated and they don't have access to the same raw materials. So it's I think the the rest of the world still have a lot of catching up to do before they can touch China. Of course in pockets there are just like you said in Indonesia or you know Yandam, Bangladesh for fashion, for footwear. There there's certain centers that have developed around the world that where they really good at stuff. I mean there's some pockets in Eastern Europe that are you know interesting even for injection molding products and stuff like that but you know to for for nobody's even close to China yet at least in my opinion. >> What's the most interesting product someone's come to you to develop? You said you're just in a EV factory. Did someone ask you to make a electric vehicle and so you're over there doing a factory inspection or what what's something just like really cool really cool or really crazy that you guys have been asked to develop? >> Well, I don't know if this is an adult only podcast, but >> you can talk about anything. It could be anything. Yeah, we had a a guy, he he's an elderly guy that um that observed that at the old folks home or area he lived that there was a lot more women than there were men and he had this idea of develop a slinky that you can sit on that that was also vibrating at the same time. That was uh >> it's a wonderful wonderful toy. >> It's a wonderful toy. Very very popular. So, we get a few of those that kind of stopped you in your tracks like what what are they trying to do? >> Did Did he actually go through manufacturing with it? >> Yeah. Yeah, he made I don't know if you ever I haven't seen it on the market. Um, >> but it's, you know, you get some of those. You get some really terrible ideas. Um, I hope I'm not pointing somebody out, but he he was going to make a razor, but he and he wanted to have one razor on each side because he thought that, you know, if you if it started getting dull, I can just turn around and keep on shaving. I like, well, you kind of >> let's kind of figure that out. You just exchanged the razor instead. So, you get some of those mind-numbing things, but but then, uh, there's a lot of really really super creative products, too. So, how do how do you protect yourself? I mean, there's always the thing, I'm afraid to give my idea to somebody. I'm afraid >> to share it with China where they're just going to, you know, knock it off out the back door and someone's uncle's going to be, you know, that Chinese uh we help each other out uh kind of thing. How do you protect yourself? You know, Kickstarter is such a great place for customer validation and testing things and raising initial funding, but then to your point, as soon as you put it out there, odds are you got a copycats and and they're probably going to beat you to market because once you're done with your Kickstarter, you're going to try to find a factory and by then factories already made your product. So, you got to be careful with that for sure. Um, protecting yourself is is is difficult. I particularly like that. If it's an idea that's out in the open, I don't I don't think there's any way you can protect yourself. Uh, one of the reason a lot of people like working with Gamba is that we have a Chinese entity, you know, and our Chinese entity have triple N agreements, you know, non-compete, non-disclosure, non-ircumvent >> with all the factories that we work with in China. And because we have a entity there and we have those agreements, we actually have some chance of taking action toward factories that do something that's not part of our agreement. That said, I mean to your point, if their their nephew has a factory around the corner and they start making it, it's a little harder to to prove. Uh, but we've found by having those things in place, we haven't really had any issues. I could think of maybe one or twice where there's been an issue where we had to take legal action. Uh, but I think, you know, dotting your eyes, crossing your tees is is important to make sure you have agreements and you have everything papered up. No 100% guarantee that someone's not going to knock you off, but at least you can you have have a chance of of fighting it. And also, you know, design patents, of course, you know, this uh Amazon doesn't look at utility patents, but they may look at design patents. So if you do have a unique design of some sort, then we always recommend that people people file and design patent. It's not as complicated and and not as costly as a utility patent. >> What are some other things that uh sellers are overlooking that could be critical? I mean, I think customer validation is is something that not enough people do and um because people get so excited about the product idea and they're so convinced that this is a great thing but it's always a good idea I think to stop and you know see is is it really a great thing to people and like you mentioned Facebook ads it's easy now uh there's a number of different ways you know pick fu or other You can test it, but I think the best is actually testing it with some kind of ad and setting a price because that's one of the most important pieces of feedback you can get, right? What are people willing to pay for this item, right? If you're if you're selling a a a baby stroller and you know you have a landed cost of $100 and people aren't willing to pay more than 150, you you don't have a business, right? So, and and you can learn most of that, you know, not definitively, but you can get really good indications up front by testing your product in the market and see what people are actually willing to pay. I'd say that that's and that's a toughy if you miss it, right? If you go through this whole process of 12 months, you finally get your dream product, you're super excited, it works exactly as you had intended it, >> but nobody's going to buy it for the price you have to sell it for. >> I think that's a big mess. A lot of people don't understand what landing cost is. Mhm. >> Uh and and you tell them, well, they just look at the factory cost. So, it's going to cost me three bucks and I can sell it for 20, so it's $17 profit. And that's what some of the gurus would would hype out there on videos and stuff, but they don't understand all the logistics and all the taxes and all the tariffs and all the duties and all the other things that go involved. What are some misconceptions when it comes to landing costs that people just always overlook that don't realize is part of the manufacturing process? I mean like I mean the most obvious ones are you know the the the shipping costs and the you know tariffs that come on top of it. Um I think a lot of people don't quite realize you know post postmanufacturing you know the the fees involved in warehousing and fulfillment and shipping back and forth between you you and Amazon then what the fees that Amazon or Tik Tok or whatever it is going to charge you. There's a I know Kevin, you preach this that you have to understand every single aspect, every cost that goes into your business and I I subscribe to that 100%. If you don't if you don't know it, you odds are you're not going to, you know, you're going to underpric your product uh and and not leave enough margin in there. Uh tooling is another one, right, that we we run into uh that people don't plan for or budget for for tooling appropriately. um and that you know you really need to be you know however you bake it into the landed cost it is part of the cost that you have to recover you know you can advertise it over time but um I'd say those are the biggest things that people miss >> yeah compliance might be something >> yeah good point >> yeah thanks for bringing that up particularly you know if you're in the medical field or something that's that's if you're creating some kind of device that that touches >> the body or you know goes in the body, you have to be, you know, really should verify exactly what kind of licensings and certifications that you need because that can also, you know, you can also end up with a container full of product that you you're not able to sell in the United States. And understand if you're selling in multiple different countries, understand what are the regulations in each one of those countries before you start shipping product there. >> What are other good sources besides Alibaba out there? Are there some other good websites for people that just want to do this themselves and kind of source? Um, what would you recommend? Like, >> uh, I'd recommend go to gamba.com and start talking. >> There you go. >> There you go. There you go. There you go. >> I mean, there's Yeah, you got India Mart and you got, you know, I mean, >> global sources. >> I think just Google it and you'll find a a slew of different sources. Uh, I don't think that they're any better than Alibaba necessarily. Uh, you know, I I don't think you can really, like I said earlier, I don't think you can really trust Alibaba, >> but they certainly have access to a lot of information. Um, >> you can use like tools like import genius or something to reverse engineer what your competition, who they're who they're using if they haven't blocked it, which most. >> Yeah, there's some few handful of tools like that where you can actually look at import records, which I think is is super helpful. uh you know uh often see on Alibaba that they claim that they're shipping all over the world and then if you look at import genius or or similar tools you can see that oh they actually they only they've never sold anything to the US before which you know is a big red flag. So the Yeah, I think that I think there's a lot of tools. I think like you said, AI has made it easy. You anybody can find a factory now. I think that the due diligence is is even more important than ever, you know, to really look up and make sure that that factory is what what they say they are. And I'm not sure you can treat just trust any one source out there to to have a perfect perfect data set. I think you got have to do the the hard work of figuring it out. Um >> do competitive analysis again too. Do like someone comes to you and like hey I want to do this double-sided razor. Uh, do do you go out and say, "Well, you know, Gillette already has uh one that heats up and so and so already has one that uh, you know, serves as a as a fork." Uh, so you can eat while you shave and >> do it. Do y'all do any of that kind of stuff as well? >> Yeah, we we just started in the last I'd say it's last 12 months uh to do a couple of, you know, market validation uh, type services. So, uh, if if you have a really if you have a good idea, but you still don't quite have it complete, a complete design and you haven't figured out what the pricing is, we can help and and we do some of the stuff. I mean, people can do this themselves, too. But, uh, we have a proven methodology to take them through it and test different price points and, you know, compare it to competitors, etc. And coming out on the other side, you have a good idea of is anybody going to want to buy my product? what may they be willing to pay for this product. We generally don't discourage people to, you know, it's not up to us to say if a product is a good idea or not necessarily. You know, they would have thought the fidget spinner was going to sell, you know, millions and millions. It's it has no no real value, right? So we but we try to point people to the data to you know if they're trying to make something that we don't believe in then you know we we run a research report and show them that there's literally zero people on Amazon searching for this right now but you know if you want to if you're convinced that you have some insight that the world the rest of the world don't have we you know you want to pay us to develop that product we'll develop it for you. Okay. One of the other uh advantages of especially your companies, you've got feet on the ground. A lot of people when they're in or using um Alibaba, they don't understand many of those factories are brokers. >> And you know, all you have to do is just take a look. Are they selling slinkies and Coke bottles and dresses and your product, right? Well, that's probably a broker. And it's it's a huge advantage of you knowing that you can actually go and deal directly with the factory but also in Chinese. So, you've got the cultural advantage over there as well. >> Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. I forget what the right number is, but I think less than half of the listings on Alibaba are actual real factories that have machines that make product. So, what if I came to Gima and I said, "Hey, okay, I got this idea for uh for scratch and sniff panties and I want you to >> I want you to make some scratch scratch and sniff uh whatever." >> Yeah. >> Uh >> how much am I going to be and say here you guys take it. You guys do my branding, my packaging, you coordinate the whole thing. >> What am I looking at just ballpark? I know it's going there's some variables there on materials and different things, but what am I looking at? A >> it's going to cost me probably 3 to 5,000 bucks. It's going to cost me 10 grand, 20 grand. Um what would I just just for a basic kind of thing? >> Yeah, I mean take take the branding out of it for for a sec because branding it's its own >> product uh that we can certainly help with, but we're not necessarily branding experts. Um you packaging is a whole different you know is one product too right you can hire us to do it you don't have to if we just look at the product and product development to go from you know concept to design you know at the very low end uh a journey I'd say is you know5 to $10,000 if it's a pretty straightforward product it's like a mechanical pen or or spatula or you know something that doesn't have too many moving parts or components. Maybe a pen is a bad bad example, but and then you know mid mid-tier product that that that have some moving parts, some level of complexity, you're looking at probably 20 25 grand. And you know, if it's a real complex thing like the kitchen machine I mentioned, you know, you're looking at probably six figures, $100,000 and, you know, 12 to 18 months to develop something like that. So, it's a wide range based on complexity. Um the benefit with GMA, you know, compared to sourcing agent is that if you you work with a traditional sourcing agent, they typically they they sit between you and the factory, right? They will come back with a quote and here's the price for your thing, but you don't negotiate or work directly with the factory. So you don't have insight into what do they what the factory actually charge for this product. That that sourcing agent could mark it up anywhere between 10% and 100%. Right? Uh so and and so then you may be paying a lot more over over the duration and maybe it feels attractive that they're doing that upfront but you have to understand when something is too good to be true it probably is. Why would they work for free to help you source your product you know they don't they're going to get their money eventually. >> Hey Kevin King and Norm Ferrar here. If you've been enjoying this episode of Marketing Misfits, thanks for listening this far. Continue listening. We got some more valuable stuff coming up. Be sure to hit that subscribe button if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast player. Or if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify, make sure you subscribe to our channel because you don't want to miss a single episode of The Marketing Misfits. Have you subscribed yet, Norm? >> Well, this is an old guy alert. Should I subscribe to my own podcast? >> Yeah, but what if you forget to show up one time? It's just me on here. You're not going to know what I say. >> I'll I'll buy you a beard and you can sit in my chair, too. We'll just You can go back and forth with one another. Yikes. But that being said, don't forget to subscribe, share it. Oh, and if you really like this content, somewhere up there there's a banner. Click on it and you'll go to another episode of The Marketing Misfits. Make sure you don't miss a single episode because you don't want to be like Norm. >> Okay. Well, we are at the top of the hour. Kevin, >> yeah, this is uh this has been great, Tenri. I think some good information for a lot of people. So, is what's the best way for someone to get a gimba.com or reach out to you directly or what's the best way for someone to get a hold of you guys? >> I think gamba.com is a great place to go. That's gb ah.com. We've got some new cool AI tools there. We call him Scout. That's basically a expert product developer. So, uh, customers can talk to him and ask questions and say, "Hey, this is what I'm trying to develop." And Scout will help them think through what, you know, if that's a good idea, if it's, you know, what is it going to take? and uh um helped them figure out sort of what's the what's the range of cost and how long it's going to take to make something like that. So, we're excited about that. You know, that's something that salespeople had to do and still salespeople do today. But this is just a way for people to sort of self-s serve and understand it better. And on ya.com, you can also see all those case studies that I mentioned earlier. So, you can see that we have worked with hundreds and hundreds of companies and successfully brought hundreds of products to market. >> Okay. Very good. Well, we we're we are at the top of the hour and we always have one question for our guest. Not our guest, our misfit. Do they know a misfit? >> I mean, you you already know the Titan network and you know, I just joined those guys and uh I worked with um Georgie. It's one of their Tik Tok experts. >> Yeah. >> And she was she was really really good. Uh, so I've been helping a uh a Swedish candy brand on Tik Tok and uh Georgie was really help helpful in helping auditing, seeing where we are, seeing the potential, helping develop a plan forward. >> Yeah, her her husband is coming out to my marketing masters event next month here in Austin and I might uh I might reach out to you. Uh I'm putting it together who's if you're interested uh I'm always looking for experts to help people on a hot seat. >> Sorry, just a second. Is this a shameless plug or are we >> a shameless plug? >> Okay. Okay. >> I'm always looking for experts uh on on uh to sit on the hot seat and I got a couple people that I think are looking for some sourcing help and stuff. >> So I'll next month I'll August 20th or 24th I'll uh in the probably this weekend I'll I might reach out to you and see if you're interested in available and give you some info. >> Yeah, would would love to help. I'm gonna be in Sweden until August 11th, but I should be back in town by 24th. >> Awesome. Cool. Well, thanks uh for coming on uh Henrik. I appreciate it, man. >> Oh, I really appreciate the opportunity and thanks both of you guys. Always pleasure to see you. >> Appreciate it. >> You too. >> All right, we'll see you later. >> See you. Take care. >> Here's my mouse. There we go. You know, sometimes the the marketing is always the sexy stuff and the sourcing is always the thing that some people just don't want to pay attention to. For some people, that creative process of sourcing is actually the they're driving. They they love that more than the actual creating the marketing. But a lot of people want the sizzle, but without that without that stake, there is no sizzle. And if you don't have the right foundations on your sourcing and your manufacturing, then all you're going to be doing is spinning your wheels or spending a lot of money or like he said, going out of business. Ain't that right, Nor? >> That's right, Kev. >> And if you don't want to go out of business, what do you do? >> You listen to the Marketing Misfits podcast, right? >> What's that? >> I said, if you don't want to go out of business, what do you do? >> Oh, I know that answer. I I was just waiting. I I thought my part right now was to smile and wave. No, it is to go to YouTube and listen to the Marketing Misfits podcast. And if you want to just have these short clips, 3 minutes and under, you go to YouTube and you go to the Marketing Misfits clips. What if you want to read? You don't want to watch something, you just want to read something. Is there a way to do that? you want to read. We have uh something that uh we're a little biased, but we think this is a pretty damn good newsletter, and you can always check that out at misfits.news. That's right. Every Wednesday, a brand new newsletter. Every Tuesday, a brand new podcast. So, I guess we'll see you guys either on Tuesday or Wednesday again, right? >> Yeah. I hope so. >> I hope so. Uh and check out, don't forget coming soon, Misfit Mayhem. If you don't know what that is, just stay tuned. We'll be announcing a murderbot with cigars all online. It's going to be cool. >> I I I think that it would sound better Murderbot, but I think we'd have a problem with marketing, right? >> Yeah. I don't think Facebook and uh Tik Tok will allow us to put up a game say, "Hey, come play Murderbot." They're going to be like, "What the heck?" Um but but uh yeah, watch for announcement on that soon. Uh maybe it's already come out by the time you've uh you've listened to this episode. If so, go to marketingmisfits.co. co marketing misfits.co and you can get all the information how to how to join us on that. I guess I'll see you next week, Norm. >> All right, see you. >> Take care, buddy.