The Dark Side of 7-Figure Success...

One of the crazy things about AI is that there's something called the Dunning Krueger effect. When you don't know anything, you think you know a lot. And the more you learn, the less you think you know until the very end when you actually know a ton, you're like, "Yeah, I kind of know a little bit." The problem with AI is that it makes everybody way overconfident. If you're successful in ecom, it can be and often times is very isolating. When [ __ ] hits the fan, does anybody around you understand what happened? And that isolation can lead to a lot of feelings of depression, anxiety, and that it leads to a lot of addiction, too. There's a lot going on in the space that we got to make sure that we're caring for each other, that we're sharing things that are appropriate to share in terms of, you know, how to stay sane, how to stay happy, how to have a good time, how to make some friends along the way. >> You're watching Marketing Misfits with Nor and Kevin K. Norm, I've got a question for you. Do you still have that Super Eight projector that was up in the closet? It has all those little those little films and the little canisters. Do you still have that? >> I think I I went through school for film and cinematography and we shot everything in 16 uh eight and like super eight. So, I had to have the camera and 16 mm. >> I'm talking about those ones that were for it was like what was it? Her name was Debbie or something. And >> yeah, and she did you do you still have Do you still have those up in the closet? >> No, I've got a Kevin in Austin. >> Oh jeez. Don't keep that in the closet. Don't ever let that one come out. >> That's for sure. And you know, our our guest today is a pretty cool dude. Uh not only because he moved to Austin where all the cool people are. your wife won't let you move here, Norm. So, you're not you're not part of the cool people yet. But, um, he actually flew to Nashville. I had an event in Nashville in April, uh, a big event, and he came out for the event, but he came a day early just to have a cigar with us. That's what he Well, let's say what he says. He's probably there on some other business. >> Probably got a hottie on the side. >> He's all about mindset and stuff. So, he's just like, you know, let me let me get into their heads and I'll just tell them that. But but he came out and uh had we went to a little lounge uh and and sat there for a couple hours and uh it was it was great and we learned a lot about this guy. I'm like, "Dude, you got to get on the podcast as well." >> Yeah. And that's again, it's the best thing about cigar smokers, right? That's this cigar culture we always talk about. You could just sit down and talk to anybody and uh Yeah, it's fantastic. I love it. >> Well, you know, there I almost did that. No, I thought of you the other day. I live on on Rainy Street in Austin, which is a busy I'm on the very end of the street. And I was driving down the street coming back and outside one of the bars, there was a table. And at this table, as I looked and I looked twice and looked third time, there's a bunch of cigars. And then around the table was like four guys sitting out at in the front of this bar in like the little uh uh yard area of the bar uh smoking cigars. And then this week, I saw it again, just like you said. Instantly, I'm like, I don't know who these people are. I have no clue who they is, but I saw twice now that they got a little table there and three guys were sitting around smoking cigars and like instantly I could I feel comfortable to go up to them and hey and talk to them. That's what cigars smoking does for the people that are anti and like you said our guest today. So, what is it about cigars, Norm? I think it's the ability to sit down, relax, and just either just get into your own mind or just talk about just not be afraid to approach somebody you've already got something in common. We never start off by talking business. It could go down that path, but usually it's talking about something completely. We don't, you know, people are not saying, "Oh, this is how much I make." It's if anything it's it's give to get. I mean, there's been so many incredible conversations that we've been in cigar bars and we've we've had we've had we've met so many incredible people that have even been on this podcast. Multiple people that have been on this podcast. So, I don't know what it is, but it's like a fraternity of brothers and sisters. There are a few female uh cigar smokers out there. >> That's true. So, why don't we bring him on? I mean, our our fellow cigar buddy that's he he said he's going to come on the next CMS trip. I don't know if he's going to do it. He might have just been blowing smoke up our dress. Uh but but >> that's a dress. I don't wear dresses. >> Okay. >> Your dress. I was talking about you. >> So, >> let's bring them on. >> Let's do it. >> Well, hey guys. >> How are you? >> What's up, Drew Little John's? Welcome to the show, man. >> Oh, thank you very much. I actually have an answer for you about the cigar thing by the way. It is a sociological answer but it is real >> and it is called ritual humiliation from a sociologist mythologist named Merche Elliott. And what he actually said was the idea of ritual emulation is that when we all get together and we kind of embibe in this kind of smell this kind of stench together kind of like a bunch of people in AA when we all get together and say hi my name's Drew. I'm an alcoholic. Everybody gets your status gets removed. hierarchy gets removed and what's left is community. And so when you get into a cigar bar, all that status, all that hierarchy, how many businesses you've exited, how many people are just getting started, none of that status matters and all of a sudden you're just a couple of dudes talking. And that's the magic of things like cigars. And so, yeah, when I met you guys at Prosper, I met I ran into Norm and Norm's like, "Come smoke a cigar with us." I think it was at the Venetian, right? Yep. >> Came out, had a cigar. And I thought, you know what? I'll bet these guys are going to be having cigars the night before this event in Nashville. And I did fly out a day early just in case that actually happened. And it did happen and we had a great time. >> Yeah, that So why does that happen though with cigars but not at a bar? >> Okay. >> A bar with my buddies. >> Completely different atmosphere. Yeah, >> it does happen at a bar. It happens outside the bar with the people standing in the crown of the circle smoking a cigarette. You don't have a friend at a bar, go outside, bum a cigarette, stand in the circle, smoke a cigar or smoke a cigarette with the guys in the circle, and go back in. You got a whole circle of friends instantaneously. There is just something that is magical about that smoking ritual experience that doesn't happen in the context of like a standard bar over drinks necessarily. And I like what you said about just stripping away that status because we've gone in Kev when we met Raphael Nodell, >> he didn't know who we were >> and he just, you know, now we whenever we see him and he's he's um a huge brand owner and the owner of um Monte Cristo uh uh Monte Cristo Lounges, but he just treated us like we were just one of the toys and I've gone to a couple of cigar shows recently and meeting these legends in the business and they just put you under your wing. You know, you can start com talking to them. I've emailed a few. They get right back to me and it's just it's phenomenal and it you you don't it doesn't matter if you're sweeping the floors or if you're a CEO of a Fortune 500 company, it all gets stripped. I love what you said there, Drew. And u I wonder how that applies to marketing. >> Well, how did Okay, I'll tell you exactly how it applies. How do you think I got onto this podcast? How do you think I got on the stage in Nashville? Right. It didn't happen because well, I mean, I did slip. >> There was there was that suitcase of large bills. I mean, >> there was there was uh and that as with, you know, 4.8 star ratings, you know, 9,000 reviews, you can turn it into anything you want. Uh, no. But what but at the end of the day, this is one of the best ways of networking is to get into places with people. You know, I was homeless when I when I first started my my Amazon brand. I mean, I had I had worked my way up and and um I was living in the basement of a church when I was younger and wound up kind of working my way up through it. And I found out along the way that your network, this is a classic thing, but your network is your net worth, you know, but at the end of the day, if you sit together, if you where you vibe, that's your tribe, right? That's one of my things my dad always says. And one of the things I love about cigar smokers is you is you don't have to be you don't have to know everything. You know, I like kind of pansy cigars. I like a good Connecticut. It doesn't have a big buzz. It's not some beef, you know what I mean? Norm likes to get really weird over there with his Freud cigars, you know, and I'm over here with my little, you know, dainty blonde and it's fine and I like it. But man, being able to sit down and just being able to draw in that network because now through you guys, I was able to hang out with Dan Curts for an entire night and I know that if I need some AEO help, I know exactly where I can go because we sat down and we smoked cigars, right? Uh same with Paul Raffles um at, you know, BDSS. I wound up like hanging out or or I'm in uh ecom and AI, right? I wound up hanging out with all these guys smoking cigars. If that wasn't a better investment into marketing myself to have access to marketing, right? Not just like the actual nuts and bolts, but like the the really building a foundation. I can't think of a better way to do it than with cigars. You know, we had at that uh that Kevin's event in Nashville, we had a marketing misfits event the same time and about 70 people came out and people were coming up left, right, and center who didn't even smoke cigars, but just enjoyed the overall culture again of getting to know people. Uh, and it's a little different. Uh, this place had great ventilation, so that's a that's a plus. I can see why some people wouldn't want to come out, but the same thing. Got to meet people, got to know a ton of people I didn't know and now now I'm in contact with them. >> So, so cool. >> This is this is the idea of the liinal space, the space in between spaces. This is where you get to know people in the statusless environments. So, getting a chance to go out and make your own whiskey, right? Kevin, you helped facilitate that experience. or Norm when you were able to go into a studio, right, and you were able to get to have that experience in Nashville. When you guys are facilitating these experiences, the conference experience, especially in the diamond and platinum level experiences that you guys are offering, these are places where all that status gets stripped out of those relationships are unbelievably easy not only to to create, but you're creating something that's like summer camp for grown-ups. you know, you're just making friends that somehow you remember them for years to come. And I think that's one of the best investments you can make into your personal development, not just in marketing, but in like how you're actually growing as a business owner. You know, what you're going to do after you exit, right? >> Hey, Norm, I've got a quick question for you. I'm trying to manage all my affiliate and creator programs from Amazon, from Shopify, from Walmart, but it's just a freaking mess. I mean, I've got reporting coming from here and there. There's all these different Slack messages. Do you know if there's like a unified dashboard where I can do this all in one place? >> Yeah, absolutely. And you're right, it is a mess. A lot of brands are complaining about that. But there is a place that has a solution. and it's called Lavanta. And they let brands recruit partners, track performance, manage payouts, send product samples, and even run creator programs across every major marketplace all in one place. And guess what? Brands can spend less time on tools and more time making profit. >> Is that the one that you sent me a link for like a 10% off coupon their gold or enterprise plan a few few days ago? >> You got it. Oh, cool, man. I think I've got that link here. Was it lavanta.iomisfits? >> Yep, you got it. >> le van n t a.iomisfits. >> Awesome. I'm going to go uh go hit him up right now and get that 10% off. >> Perfect. Me, too. >> Yeah. You know, one other thing is so I met a a new cigar buddy uh that's in Canada and he invited me up to his place on the weekend. So I went up there and from that connection there's another guy close by as well. But just this week in our little cigar group, so the cigar boardroom, there's been four or five people that joined Canadian that it was word of mouth. And now it's so cool because during our last podcast, Kevin, he was just texting me saying, "Hey, I'm in town and uh we're going to have an event next Sunday up at my place. All these guys are invited." So all of a sudden there's a cigar event happening up in, you know, the boondocks where I live. So how does that relate to e-commerce sellers? I mean, you e-commerce sellers are like go through a lot of stuff, Drew, that a lot of other people don't relate to. you we really can't talk if you're selling on Amazon or Shopify or Etsy or whatever. It's difficult to talk to your friends and families about what you do and and the ups and downs of being an entrepreneur and you said you you you emerged out of a homelessness and started your when you started your brand and have grown and now you've you're running this eight nine figure brands and advising people and doing all kinds of uh cool stuff. >> What what is it about that that draws people? It's almost like the cigars analogy where you're instantly have a connection with these people. >> Yeah. Um well, one of the big things that I've noticed coming into the ecom space is first of all, it is a it is still the wild west, right? I mean, everything changes so quickly underneath your feet. And one of the big things that we don't really pay attention to or talk a lot about um is the relational component that we do need to have. I remember the first time I met somebody. I'd never even met another Amazon seller. And I think at the time we were doing maybe seven or eight million a year or something. This is in 2021. And I never even met another Amazon seller. And it was like I always felt so weird because when I would tell people, hey, we're we're an Amazon seller. I it wasn't until like 2019 2020 that people stopped saying, are you selling books? Right? like nobody like everybody just assumed that we were and it was like Amazon is a thing. It was it was an established brand. Um but then as we started moving forward and things started changing, you know, when when when your listing goes down from an algorithm change, right? Or Amazon just removes $80,000 of cost of goods inventory or things get stuck in tariffs. You know, these are things that your average friend down the street has no idea about. the average guy that you're maybe you're on the same little league team and you know your kids play baseball together and you know he's talking about the stock market and you're talking about you know trying to get a hold of your Amazon SAS rep because you have an escalation problem and he doesn't understand anything. I mean you you go to try to talk to your therapist you're like well what's going on? You're like well you know they have no idea what's happening right? I've got everything's being held up at my 3PL and you know, Ship Fusion's, you know, not releasing it and I've got a hazmat issue because my lithium ion has the wrong amount of grams in the battery component. Like, oh my, like just in the weeds. And I think a lot of times as a seller, you can get so in the weeds with your products and in the weeds with, you know, your fulfillment. And if you're not careful, if you're not careful, this can be a very isolating thing, right? learning sit sitting there with the algorithms are trying to figure out how to both market your product and be an authentic seller, right? You want to be able to sell the most units, but you also want to be as authentic as possible. So, I think that there's a lot of psychological uh experiences that ecom sellers go through specifically that a lot of normal kind of more traditional business owners just don't really don't really deal with a whole lot. And I think there's a lot of anxiety and a lot of stress around being an ecom seller, especially being in such a dynamic environment all the time. Um, and so that's something that I've been talking with a lot of people about over the last few months is just, you know, how do you emotionally stay grounded while at the same time you're trying to push and trying to capture as much ground as you possibly can because you don't know how long you're going to have the uh, you know, you're going to have it. How long is how long are you going to have this this current algorithmic edge or this marketing edge before people start, you know, ripping your product and running with it or what have you. So, you know, there's a certain balance between staying on the bleeding edge and at the same time finding a a healthy space and finding people to talk to and people to relate to within the community. So, I think every ecom seller should know exactly when their next Kevin King event that they're going to go to is. When is the next conference that you're going to go to? And you want to know, you want to know exactly when that is because you want to know when you're going to see your friends. You want to know when you're going to see your tribe. Like this is really important. Any Tony Robbins event, any of these guys will always say one of the things you should do as an entrepreneur is you should know when you're going to go and hang out with your people again. And so anybody who's listening to this, they really need to sit down, put it in the calendar. The next event is Market Masters, right, Kevin? That's the next one in August. >> Yeah. >> And I know that one's got limited slots. Is that right? >> It it is. And the only way I got Norm to come is I tell him I have a Behiki for him. >> Exactly. >> And Norm's like, "Oh, You guys squeezing in these shameless plugs. >> And Norm said, "Okay." Norm said, "Okay, I'm there." >> But I'm there. Yeah, >> I'm there. But no, but why is it ecom, Drew? You're saying ecom has this, but doesn't the local business guy have this? He doesn't know if something's a hamburger stand's going to open down the street that's going to take all his business or if it's going to rain and nobody's going to come out to his restaurant tonight and he's got all this food going to waste. Don't they have similar type of things? >> They have similar kind of things and it's a little bit more localized. But in ecom, you can't just It's not like you switch a a flip one day and all of a sudden hot dogs are illegal. What? You know, like all of a sudden, they just want to let you know like, yeah, there was a thing. This thing happened. Hot dogs are now illegal. You're like, "Oh, wow. That entire container of tape I have is illegal now." Oh, >> that's great. That that does happen on ecom. So, those of you listening that are ecom, it happens. You're like, I mean, you just get caught with your, you know, it's like you're going after that next big thing and all of a sudden your hands in the cookie jar and you got $2 million sitting on a boat from China to here and sorry, you know, and and all the and those things just happen in ecom. I mean, it just happened to me. I got I had a I have a client and we're doing um $60,000 a day, right? Number one in the category. And uh Amazon decided to change it said that that this product is treating a medical condition. We had made up a name for whatever this product was doing. It wasn't an actual technical medical thing. It was just a madeup idea that it helps this idea. And then Amazon says, "Oh, your product is claiming to treat medical things." That's no, we're not. like we just made up something that it potentially is like helpful for for >> but I I think this is completely different when you're dealing with Amazon like back in 2013 this was painless you can get up there you could run your business a lot of people are not have not gone through business uh programs or courses so they might be in a totally different business now they're into uh ecom which is you're an entrepreneur now you got to jump in there and learn everything. But over the years, we saw something that caused the anxiety. It's an unfair advantage. And that's because Amazon, just like happened to you, but this happens on a regular basis, all of a sudden changes the rules or does something stupid and your listing suspended or something's gone wrong. And that is an extra layer of anxiety for any Amazon seller. You know how you fix that, Nor? >> I'm listening. >> You know how you fix that? >> You control your destiny and your own distribution by having an email list that Dragonfish built. So then then when >> another shameless then >> I saw that coming a mile away. >> Norm thought I was going to do something smartass. >> Talk about hot dogs again and I was going to have a real heart attack. No, but just to pivot over, I want to go back to this idea of knowing when you're going to attend your next event. I want to go back to that just when we were talking about that earlier, you know, with knowing when you're going to attend Market Masters, knowing when you're going to go to uh even a Prosper or an Inspire, you know, those >> local a local meetup in your city or something. >> Local meetup, um a mastermind, you know, I know that MDS does like one-day events. the Titan Network. Look, the Titan Network is a fantastic place for folks to be able to find a home within this community. But if there's one thing that I would really highly encourage every ecom entrepreneur, it is to build a network of friendships within that community. Whether you get together and you smoke cigars or you go mountain biking or you go fly fishing, whatever it is that your happens to floats your boat, you got to have some people that you know, that you trust and some folks that you can say like, look, this catastrophic event happened and people who can sit with you and say, "Man, I either have some solutions for you or I know a guy who knows a guy who breaks things or who fixes things, right? That's how a lot of people find me. It's just I know a guy who knows a guy who fixed things in Amazon and then my phone rings, right? Um or somebody that you can call and they can say, "Yeah, I totally get it. I completely hear you." And I don't think that we talk about things like life coaching enough in or business coaching. I don't think we talk about these things enough in econom. So, one of the things I think that kind of drives a lot of unhealthy mental health spaces in ecom is the hyperaggressive um optimization addicted culture that we have that everything always goes up and to the right. I can always be better. Everything can always be better. And I think this hyper optimization actually leads to um some pretty terrible health uh side effects psychologically speaking. So learning to have a place where you can go where you're not trying to make progress. You're just having fun. You're just being a person. And so I know like Norm it's been so much fun hanging out with you over the last I don't know two or three months and Kevin you too. And I know we're not doing businessy stuff. We're not, you know, there's just a joy of good conversation. And I know I know that under the surface of this conversation right here that there's nothing I can talk about from a business sense that you guys can't empathize with. I know that you guys would be able to sit with me on any of that issues. >> But what about people that go to one of these events and everybody's ahead of them? I mean, they always say, "You don't want to be the smartest guy in the room. You want to be where the people who have been there before can guide you or can rub off on you or some of their habits. But at the same time, some people they have an inferiority complex. They'll go and like, man, I'm not at that level. I I suck. My life sucks cuz I'm not traveling the world and somebody else running my business. I'm down here in the weeds just cranking it out and trying to rob Peter to pay Paul. Uh, so >> I mean, look, I don't look like I belong in Titan. I mean, those guys are like the Greek gods and goddesses of the world. You know what I'm saying? And that's fant. I love them to death. But no, um, people want to talk about themselves. If you're brand new and you're a brand new seller, go and find somebody who's two or three levels got two or three zeros ahead of you and be like, "Hey, can I pick your brain for a minute?" People love to talk about themselves. They love to share what they did. And Norm, like you were saying earlier, they want to take you under their wing. I've never had anybody who's ever text me like, "Hey, can I talk to you about how you built your supplement brand?" And I've been like, "No, no, I always tell them." And in fact, in fact, I always wind up telling him way more than I than I should. Always. Norm, I don't know if you've ever told people way more than you should or Kevin, but I do because at the end of the day, like I want them to succeed. I don't know. There's a joy in sharing like I got this hard-fought battle scars, these ecom battle scars. Trust me, nobody cares about my battle scars except for when I go and travel and talk to guys like you. >> Well, one of the gohead >> I was going to say one of the things that a lot of people can do. So, let's say you do have and I I do recommend going out and becoming part of an Amazon or ecom or whatever your niche is is a a mastermind. It's always great. Uh entrepreneurism is or entrepreneurship is definitely a lonely battle. So if you can get that input and have people that you know are your peers and you can work with them, that's great. But there is another level and I found when uh I went into an organization called Yo, it's called EO now entrepreneurs organization. And not only are you surrounded by a group of peers, but you can spin off into these forums and it's like your own uh board of adviserss where you go in 100% confidential uh anything you want to talk about. Um not only do you become friends, but usually you grow your business with this group of people over years. And if you're not, if you didn't go and get an MBA, well, this is a a way that you can grow your business, um, make mistakes, get your business to a certain point where you won't believe the advancements that you make, and usually it's all because of the guys or the women that are in this group helping you advance. And there's a bunch of them out there, the but the one that comes to mind is uh, EO. >> Yep. It's a great organization. It's been around forever. >> I think Tim Tim Ferrris may have gotten started in EO way back in the day. >> It was um Vern Harish that started it up here in Toronto. >> I mean, it is it Denver has an amazing chapter for it. Um, I know that it is a fantastic organization, you know, because part of the problem is that if you're successful in ecom, it can be and oftentimes is very isolating, you know, and you can find yourself isolating and next thing you know, like you're doing well, but like nobody knows when everything, you know, when [ __ ] hits the fan, does anybody around you understand what happened? And that isolation, especially if it's tied to a material success, can lead to a lot of feelings of depression, anxiety, you know, now you got to solve this problem. And then it leads to a lot of addiction, too. So, I mean, I talked to a lot of people in ecom who are successful and they they got a they got that, but they wound up getting a drug or alcohol problem alongside of it. I know I did, and I've been sober now for seven and a half years. One of the first things I did as my, you know, talent level started rising in ecom is I picked up a rock solid alcohol addiction, you know, and so, hey, I mean, you don't get sober, you know, no, nobody goes into aa on a winning streak, you know what I'm saying? But like, honestly, what facilitated it was the fact that I was successful online. I didn't have to do anything, you know? So, there's a lot going on in the space that we got to make sure that we're caring for each other, that we're sharing things that are appropriate to share in terms of, you know, how to grow our businesses, how to stay sane, how to stay happy, how to have a good time, how to make some friends along the way. It's all really important stuff. And I just think we don't really pay too much attention to this. I think we can get really caught up in just everything trying to get bigger, better, more scaled. And uh and I the AI stuff of course for me is pretty um it causes a fair amount of anxiety. I'm glad to know that guys like John Aspenol are out there, you know, like or or Amy Whis are out there making make an AI understandable for guys like me, you know. >> Well, that's what happens when you own a distillery, you know, and you just get uh you just kind of get uh you get left behind, right? >> It's true. It is true, you know. And uh yeah, I did own a distillery. We never actually sold any whiskey though. We just uh we just had it. Um >> that's the drinking problem, right? >> I mean, you know, Yeah. It's it's a thing. We It was such an adventure, you know, and ecom has allowed me to do so many interesting things, you know. I've climbed all 58 14,000 foot peaks here in Colorado and I've gotten to do all kinds of other things. And yeah, there's a lot of wonderful experiences I've had in econ. getting to meet guys like you and getting to meet other rebels in the space because we're all on the edge. If you're in ecom and you're successful, you're probably on the edge. You're good at finding loopholes. You're good at finding that sliver, just getting right through that. But because you're good at spotting the world that way, problems also get in in that way. you know, learning to navigate the finances and the taxes and sales tax and getting through all that kind of stuff, right? So, there's a whole layer of mental health that I think we should be talking about in ecom. Hey, Kev, have you ever felt trapped running a business or just burnt out? Yeah, that's happened a time or two. Um, how how would I find out if what I have is actually worth something if I'm looking to to exit it? >> Well, I think one of the best things they could probably do is go to an expert that understands the market sentiment right now. First one that comes to mind is is Quiet Brokerage. And here's why. They're going to build you up. They're going to understand your company. And at the end of the day, you're going to know how to maximize your valuation. So, the very first thing you need to do is go and get your free confidential evaluation at quietite.com and then, you know, let the games begin. >> Awesome. What What was that website again? >> It's quiet.com. Awesome. I'm going to head over there. So with with your success why you were successful in this and then in 2022 or 2023 whatever it was you went back and got your masters and your PhD. >> Yeah. >> What was the reason for that if you're successful and people usually go and get those so they can >> better their career, get a better job or something. But what led you to go back and get both of those after a lot of your success in e-commerce? Well, I realized I mean my my favorite thing is to do uh public speaking and uh I like talking about um I like talking about midlife crisis for men and what it means to get through midlife crisis. Kind of my my big passion and why I went back and got a degree was because I was really passionate about it. And I'd always wanted to do uh I'd always wanted to write a dissertation um you know which is the document you write before you get your PhD. And I'd always wanted to see what that experience felt like. And so uh I finished mine. I'm sitting for my defense here in the next two weeks. And so then I'll be a a full awarded PhD uh in philosophy. And the reason I did it was because I realized that if I was to sell a business, no matter how much I sold my business for, let's pretend I go and sell my business for $250 million, that doesn't really matter. Like does that mean I have some big idea to share? Like not really. And so I wanted to know where really great ideas came from. And how do you actually generate great ideas? And if you want to participate intellectually, you have to learn how to participate intellectually. You can't just start talking. It may not actually hold any weight. And so, yeah, for me it was actually really important to go and get some skin in the game to be able to talk intelligently about some of this stuff, especially when it comes to things like me mental health or when it comes to theology or when it comes to, you know, that kind of I think it's important that you go and get a piece of paper. >> So, it wasn't for Norm to start calling you Dr. Drew. >> Oh, I mean, Norm, you can call me Dr. Drew any day of the week. >> Oh, just call you the double D's. Double D's. Luke, man, if you need to get it, you need to get it. I understand. I understand. No, I I just it was really a a big passion of mine. I wanted to live in a world where where those I think academics does matter. And I think a lot of us in ecom, I think we blow off a lot of the academics. And I do think that it matters. There's a challenge to yourself that you have to undergo to go through to be able to do that. And I think there's a real joy and a real benefit to sitting down, getting the work done, and saying,"I am committed to being in this field. I'm not going to be a renegade and a rebel forever, and I'm actually going to sit here and uh and participate." So, so if you want to get a hold of me, you know, if you're if you've got some life coaching type stuff, if you're in that ecom space and you're like, man, I would love to have somebody to talk to who understands what's going on. By all means, just look up Drew Little John's on LinkedIn and come reach out and find me. Even if one, there's like 40 of them on LinkedIn. >> No, there's only one Drew Little John's or >> it comes up when you Drew Little John's LinkedIn. Which of the 40 do you want to do? >> Okay. Mythos market. >> If you type in Drew Little John's Distillery drunk, it picks you. It's your picture. >> Oh, it just fix me. Oh, well that's to help things a lot easier, right? Uh yeah. No. Um you can reach me drew.js@gmailthosmarketing LLC. Uh you can go to.com. You can go to my website. Um but no, if you're struggling, if you're like, man, I feel isolated. I feel burned out. By all means, just give me a call. Like reach out. I would love to talk with you. kind of set up a plan to be able to kind of work with you on how to navigate that. If you want a done for you Amazon guy, I do done for you stuff. That that's everything from uh you know establishing new asens, getting everything going, getting all your first initial set of like Vine reviews and feedback and UGC and all that kind of stuff. Um but a big Amazon done for you guy. So that's establishing your 3PLs. you can go from zero Amazon presence to seven figures probably in about a year depending on where you're at um in that Amazon space. And so, but guys, I just love hanging out with you and being on the podcast. It's always fun. >> Yeah. So, so from on the marketing side of things, what are you seeing that's changing out there right now? I mean, you said you're not a big AI guy, but does that scare does AI scare you or does or you just haven't had time to dive into it or from what you're seeing and like when clients and stuff are coming to you, what what what's your just gut feelings on where things are going from a marketing and a marketplace point of view? >> I mean, right now from an AI perspective, my thought is is know the guys who know what they're doing and have a bat line to them and pay attention to what they're saying. And as soon as you find something that's implementable, either get them on board um to implement them as fast as possible. Um a lot of times I find that not all of AI is directly applicable to the organization that I happen to be in, right? And so it's mostly about like saying, okay, like we got this whole big Amazon uh listing changes that are coming up what in 3 weeks, right? July 25th, I think it is that all the listings are going to be 75 characters. And if you aren't totally aligned with, you know, whatever their thing is, that is a perfect use case for AI, right? And also to be able to run it through multiple AI engines to be able to get um what I'd say is probably the best semantics, right? Because you want you want to be able to ping the semantics as as as good as you possibly can, uh to be as relevant as you can. And then to make sure to use AI to, you know, make sure you have all the demographics represented on your product listings pages and you want to be as, you know, complete and coherent as possible. So for me, I know the guys that I follow, which are basically the guys that Kevin that you're like, hey, these are good people to follow for AI. I follow them and I read what they say and I take what they say seriously. And when three or four of them say the same thing in any given period of time, that is a direct clue to get to work and start moving forward. So, I mean, I mess around and claude and, you know, all the things. I just wouldn't consider myself to be like an AI guy because having a PhD, I know what it means to be a guy in a thing, right? So, I would never I would never make that claim. Do I do it? Of course. But am I a guy? No, not really. >> That's probably a problem that a lot of people try to be everything. Okay, I've got to >> be an expert in AI and they do it halfass and it'll come out that way. So sometimes you've got to hire an expert and you've got to, you know, part with your money. So, and and this just happened uh just recently was talking to a guy uh and he was complaining that this AI person wanted a certain amount of cash and they fixed this problem in about five minutes and he did it and and this is a perception issue too for these AI guys, but they did it in five minutes and they wanted x number of dollars and the person was telling me well it took him five minutes and I'm sitting there going, "Man, first of all, you don't understand it. You couldn't have fixed it." But going back to the AI guy saying, "You made a critical error." Perception. If you would have spent another hour or two on this and then sent this answer over to them, they would have been happy to pay the price. >> Yeah. Yeah. You do it in five minutes and they just wait two hours to send it to them and say, "I've been working on this for the last couple hours. Here you go." >> Yeah. You just hit it. You put it into Slack as like a pinged response for 4 and a half hours later. Actually, I would send a bunch of messages that are like, "Hey, this is really tough." I would I would do the whole George Castanza from Seinfeld where you have to look really stressed out and I would be like, "Things are going off the rails. It's not great." Right? Just all these times Slack messages and then finally like, "Hey guys, it was it was exhausting." But we dialed it in. We roped it in. We circled the wagons. We got it done just for you. All right. Kevin does with me with my messages. I'll send it over. >> You must have really high perception. >> Oh, Kevin. Yeah, it has to be because, you know, he'll wait hours if not days and then Oh, he'll say, "Yep." So, when it comes to AI, that's my my whole my whole approach is basically like, man, know your strengths, know where you're good at, and like and pay attention pay attention to Vanessa Hung. Pay attention to Amy Whis. Pay attention to John. Like pay attention. Don't be don't like bury your head in the sand. But like one of the one of the crazy things about AI is that it just there's something called the Dunning Krueger effect. You guys know what the Dunning Kruger effect is? >> I do. But explain it to the audience. >> All right. So Dunning Dunning Krueger effect is that is that when you don't know anything, you think you know a lot. And the more you learn, the less you think you know until at the very end when you actually know a ton. You're like, "Yeah, I kind of know a little bit." But the problem with AI is that it makes everybody way overconfident and they really think that they know exactly what the answer is. And the problem is you get in there with some of the stuff that you need, but you don't actually understand the the issue at hand. So, for example, let's say I'm writing a u I've got a case that I'm escalating into Amazon or something like that, right? And I go and I say, "Hey, write write me a case, you know, thing for response to Amazon." Well, if I don't know exactly what what to reference because I've done this a bunch of times, it's going to take me close, but it's not going to get me exactly where I need to go. And I think a lot of times Amazon just makes us a little or not Amazon but AI makes us a little bit too confident in a skill set that we don't actually have. You know, it's like a guy thinking that because he can get a lot of dates on Tinder that he's a pickup artist. Like that's not how that works, >> you know? And so I think we have a lot of problems where we think we're a lot better at certain things than we actually are. Um, and in and in uh ecom, you know, you don't escalate some of these things properly, you can have million-dollar listings go down. >> What's changing in the what do you see changing in marketplaces and stuff right now? I mean, you're dealing with a lot of people primarily on Amazon and I'm assuming a little bit of other marketplaces. Where do you think this is all going? Do you think um it's going to be harder to become an entrepreneur in e-commerce or easier because of AI and agents or what what's your what's your big uh projection of where this industry is going? >> I'll tell you the thing that I I got started in search engine optimization. That's really how I got started. And of course that's, you know, exact match keywords, you know, very keyword driven kind of thing. And so I'm really curious to see how the keyword marketplace changes through Amazon's AI distribution or just through Gemini and how it suggests things, the way that suggested products will be given to people as opposed to um keyword distribution. Now of course the guys who are good at marketing, the guys who are good at driving that branded traffic, right? That's driving external branded traffic is always going to be king. I mean 100% I don't think there's any way to argue against that. That is that is where it's always going to be at. But from the keyword side of things, from the product discovery side of things, I'm really curious to see how AI is going to impact because search engine optimization could go away completely. And I remember watching you talk about that, Kevin, at um in Nashville and being like, I don't think he's wrong. But that's the thing I'm most con most that concerns me the most for sure. How will people find products in the future? >> Yeah, it's not always going to be people though. It's going to be agents. So, this is a I think a lot of people are underestimating this. Right now, it's clunky and clanky and it's not so good, but it's it's moving quick. and you're instead of if I'm selling a a vitamin C um supplement right now I go I type in vitamin C supplement I go to Amazon and there's 50 choices but it's going to get to where the AI the agents go they they look at those 50 choices they analyze every single one of them based on what they know about you from all your other searches and all the other data they have and they're going to say well these are the three that are best for Drew and that's all and either that's all you're going to ever see and it's going to pop up and say, "I I found the one that's right for you. Here's this one from this brand. Do you want to buy it?" Just hit say or just say okay into your phone and it'll take care of it. Or it's going to just do it automatically and going to put in your card. It's going to show up and you're like, "What the hell did I order today? What's showing up today?" And I think that's going to be a big push. And one of the you talked earlier about the re 75 character limit on Amazon on titles. The reason they're doing that is for AI product cards. if you go, it matches up perfectly to AI product cards and what they need to do for AI to actually uh for token stuff. And so there there's a reason on on on that and it's it's moving in that direction and a lot of people aren't paying attention to that or or they are they're hearing a little bit here or there. They're like, I don't know what I'm doing right now is working. I'm good. >> Yeah. So, I don't know you. One thing I do know is this. The only constant thing in the entire world is change. That's the one thing I do know. So, let's say you get a handle on it in the next six months. Great. A year from now, maybe you lose it or what I see is, you know, people get successful, then you get married and you have kids. Those kids need you to start driving them to te-ball. And while you're driving them to T-ball, some other guy is 28 or 26 and doesn't have a wife, doesn't have a kids, right? He's got more neuro flexibility than you've got. and they're able to come up and do it, right? And so they've got time, they've got effort, they've got energy, they've got hunger. So one thing I do know is this. Even if you solve it in a year, you may not have it for forever. And that's why you have to have a strong foundation of relationships. That's why you have to have a strong concept of who you are as a person, who what your destiny is, what your legacy is going to be, right? The kind of person that you want to be. Really, those are the things that I think every ecom person needs to be focusing on because even if you get it today, it's going to be hard to keep it for the next decade because you're going to want to start living life eventually. So, that's kind of where I where I sit with it. I don't know exactly, but I do know that I do know that change is coming fast >> and you can either make peace with it now or you can make peace with it later. But was how how many sellers dropped off Amazon last year? >> 500,000 or something. >> Yeah. >> And I believe that Amazon wants to weed as many of them out as humanly possible. >> That that's true. If you even look at Tik Tok, I mean, there's all this hype around Tik Tok right now, but you look at Marketplace Pulse just did a study and it showed that the top 1% of sellers on Tik Tok account for 60% of the sales. >> 1%. the top 1% account for 60% of the sales. Uh and so that that that shows you how concentrated it is. And there's similar the numbers aren't quite that that extreme on Amazon, but the the average the the mo what's it Amazon sellers selling over a million dollars. It's another marketplace poll stat point uh have been on average selling for 11 years on Amazon. If you take all the people doing a million dollars or more, they've been on average. So, it's it's the people who are entrenched who got there early and that's where on AI and where this stuff is changing. You need to be there early because that's you're going to have that kind of built-in moat 10 years from now. >> Yeah, I know we've been selling on Amazon for what 14 years >> and uh you know I find it to be relatively easily easy but we've been entrenched. Um so yeah, so I would just say for your audience man guys like we all know how much is changing. just make sure that you have all your your personal ducks in a row. Let's let's not forget that that's a part of uh living a great life. It's part of why we got into ecom to begin with, right? We wanted to be our own boss. We wanted to have financial freedom. We wanted to become a digital nomad or we wanted to live the 4-hour work week or whatever it was that we were striving for when we got into ecom, right? Let's not make sure that we lose out on that good life because we're too buried in trying to maintain a bleeding edge or overoptimized or whatever. So, hey, Kevin King and Norm Ferrar here. If you've been enjoying this episode of Marketing Misfits, thanks for listening this far. Continue listening. We got some more valuable stuff coming up. Be sure to hit that subscribe button if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast player or if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify. Make sure you subscribe to our channel because you don't want to miss a single episode of The Marketing Misfits. Have you subscribed yet, Norm? >> Well, this is an old guy alert. Should I subscribe to my own podcast? >> Yeah, but what if you forget to show up one time? It's just me on here. You're not going to know what I say. >> I'll I'll buy you a beard and you can sit in my chair, too. We'll just You can go back and forth with one another. Yikes. But that being said, don't forget to subscribe, share it. Oh, and if you really like this content, somewhere up there, there's a banner. Click on it and you'll go to another episode of the Marketing Misfits. >> Make sure you don't miss a single episode because you don't want to be like Norm. >> Well, I got into ecom to meet Norm and now my dream is fulfilled. I mean, I got into ecom just because of you and uh Mark, you know, >> true. >> Is it me or Mark or uh the other things that me and Mark No, >> I just all I know is hanging out with you guys has been one of the great joys and unexpected joys that I've had in my Amazon journey. You know, uh yeah, getting to meet you guys over the last few months and really getting to hang out. It's been a ton of fun and uh yeah, I can't wait to see you guys in August. >> Yep, it's going to be great. Well, if people want to reach out to you, uh what's the best way? I know you mentioned earlier, but what's the best way to uh to find you on the interwebs? >> I mean, the interwebs, I mean, shoot me an email. Just drew.jsgmail.com. Find me on LinkedIn. You can find me pretty much anywhere. Um heck, you could shoot me a text 8054598214. You know, I'm going to get a lot of bots for this one, but whatever. Um, especially if you need some help. If you just need somebody to talk to, I I'm right here. I'm with you. If you've got an addiction problem, you want to talk to somebody, I'm here. If you've got a stress, you know, ecom problem, I'm here. And if you need somebody to help take you over into Amazon and take care of you over there, I'm happy to do that, too. But really, I just like being a a part of the uh cog in the wheel that is uh Marketing Misfits and your guys' crew over here. So, thanks so much for having me over here. Ah, you're welcome. All right, Drew, we're at the top of the hour and I got one question for you. We always ask our misfit if they know a misfit. >> My favorite misfit around is her name is Karen Crystal. Um, she is my absolute favorite marketing misfit. So, I heard her speak many years ago at Prosper and she's become a very close friend of mine over the last few years. Um, and I definitely wouldn't be where I am without her. >> And she is an absolute misfit. >> Perfect. >> Awesome. >> All right. Okay, sir. Well, thanks a lot for being part of this today. >> Yeah. Thanks, guys, for having me. I look forward to seeing you guys a little bit later on. >> All right, I'm going to remove >> Get the hell out of here. >> Remove your ass. >> Remove me there. >> I thought I was the only one that you usually remove, Norm. Well, yeah. Yeah, it came pretty close to the last one. The last podcast. You almost got the button. >> Almost almost got the button. >> Yeah. >> So, yeah. Well, I I didn't I I saved by not saved by the bell. Saved by the what? I don't know. Something slept by the cigar because I told you. >> Okay. Okay. >> There's a Behiki waiting for you in Austin. So, you're like, "Well, >> all right. No, >> don't want to remove him just yet. Um, so, so no, I mean that what Drew said, you know, get out there. A lot of people listening to this podcast, you're in your own little world and you think you're, like he said, they were at seven or eight million dollars before he met his first Amazon seller and someone, you know, that understood what he's been going through. So, get out there. Even if you don't have to come to one of my events, you can go to or any event, just a local meetup or or whatever it is, uh it can be super valuable. And uh not only a lot of times can you learn something, but you'll meet people that get you uh and you meet people that you can do business with. You you never know. Um I go to a lot of events. Norm goes to quite a few as well. And it's one of the best ways to uh and sometimes at these events, it's not so much me learning something. It's just brainstorming. you know, someone will say something on a stage or someone will say something in a conversation and I'm like, "Wait a second. I already knew that, but I put this with this with this with this and now I've got something special." And so that that's part of it, too. It's just getting out getting into a different environment. Uh change it change of scenery. Especially in when you're when you're doing these changes seniors, if you got to travel to actually get to this place by plane or by car, you should be listening to the Marketing Misfits podcast or if someone else is driving, you can be watching it. So, how how do they do that, Norm? >> I think the best way to do it is to go over to our YouTube channel and that is at marketing misfits podcast or if you want just the short clips, marketing misfits clips. And for the podcast, uh we're on all of the major podcast platforms. Plus, what what just came out, Kev? >> Newsletter. It's at misfits.news. Misfits, not marketing, but misfits.news news. Every Wednesday, a brand new edition of that comes out and it's getting some pretty uh reviews. It's it's growing right now. So, uh get in and uh it's free. It's no obligation. Uh but some valuable uh nuggets from the podcast and and from me and Nor. >> All right. So, I think that's about it. >> I think that's it for this week. I guess I'll have to see you again next week, right? >> Absolutely. If you want me to. I don't know. >> Looking forward to it. We'll see you then. I know my new background. Woohoo. >> All right. See you. >> You're going to show up time without a beard. I'm going to be like, "Who the hell is this dude?" >> Take care, buddy. >> See you.