The Art of Pissing People Off - Hypnosis, Masterminds & Finding Passion | Michael Lovitch | MMP #07

The Art of Pissing People Off - Hypnosis, Masterminds & Finding Passion | Michael Lovitch | Marketing Misfits Podcast #07 Speaker 1: So I had a friend get his cat certified. So I went out there with his cat, Dr. Zoe, with a certificate, and found a lot of media around it. Good attention, right? Just them, ah. But that got me a lot of traffic, you know, like a lot of traffic. Unknown Speaker: You're watching The Marketing Misfits with Norm Farrar, Kevin King. Norm Farrar: What's up, Mr. King? Speaker 3: Oh, just another day in paradise, you know. Sorry I got a little bit of a raspy voice today. Still fighting a cold. Norm Farrar: Too many cigars. Speaker 3: Oh, but I wish. I wish you were prepared. You know, we're organizing, as we speak right now, this will come out after the fact, but I got my big billion-dollar seller summit coming up. And, you know, the property, we're doing this in Hawaii in May, so I'm not sure when this episode will come out, but the property is a non-smoking property. Can you believe that? We're not allowed to smoke anywhere on this property. Norm Farrar: So a whole bunch of cigar smokers going to Hawaii and you picked the right hotel. Thank you, Kevin. Speaker 3: The exact right hotel, but they sell cigars in the gift shop there, you know, so I'm like, come on now. So what we're having to do is actually The Marketing Misfits, you didn't know this, this is new to you. The Marketing Misfits is sponsoring a cigar lounge. So we're actually, we got special permission to go to the front of the hotel on the last night of the event. And we're putting up a tent, two big tents just in case it rains or something. And we're bringing a bar out there. We're bringing a lounge out there. We're spending. Well, I'm spending your marketing. This is not spending, but I'm spending a pretty penny to actually set up this entire cigar smoking lounge. It's going to be sponsored by Marketing Misfits because, you know, the logo has us smoking cigars. That's that's what we're known for. And so to make this happen, I think it's going to cost about eight grand. Norm Farrar: Wow, and I don't have to pay anything. Thank you. Speaker 3: You don't have to pay anything. Norm Farrar: That's awesome. Speaker 3: Help me close it down. When they first told me, I was talking to Mark, our producer, I was like, so how long, this is going to start after dinner at nine o'clock and when do we have to? I said, well, I told him until 11. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're going to be out there until two or three in the morning." He's like, oh. I said, yeah, people won't be drinking, won't be hooting and hollering, but people will be smoking cigars, having a good time until at least two. This is the last day of the event. Norm Farrar: That's early. Speaker 3: I know that's what I was telling him, but so no, it has to go a little bit longer than that. So, it's going to be really cool. I'm sure we'll have some pictures of it. Maybe when this episode comes out, we can share on the socials or something, but it's going to be really cool because that's a tradition. You know, at the Billion Dollar Cellar Summit, we have to have cigars. So, I'm like, we got to do this. Norm Farrar: I know we started having a cigar here and there during events, but when everybody got together, they started following us around. Going over to the balcony and all of a sudden we had 20 people out there. And now that kind of happens every event we go to. Speaker 3: It is. It's part of the tradition. I mean, so how can we not do it, you know? Norm Farrar: Exactly. And I'm glad it's coming out of your pocket, too. Speaker 3: We got a whiskey tasting. You know, good thing this event is not going to make me any money, you know. We're like, what the heck? I'm already losing money. I think our guests today may even know something about that. I'm already losing money. What the heck? Let's just go all in. Let's just do it, whatever. So, it's good. Norm Farrar: I hope I see a couple of our CMS cigars, by the way. Speaker 3: I think I gave those away already. Norm Farrar: You probably threw them out. Speaker 3: CMS cigars. Speaking of that, we should actually mention the CMS trip that we're doing. You want to talk about that for a second just to let people know they're listening? Norm Farrar: Yeah, sure. Okay. August 4th to the 9th, Kevin and I have put together a new CMS, so that's Collective Mind Society event. Last year, we went to the Formula One and it was a hit. We had, well, 10 to 15 people out there and everybody loved the race. They loved going out to these really great restaurants, to these events. This year we're going to be doing it through the Canadian Rockies and I think it's called the Mountaineer, Kevin? Speaker 3: Yeah, Rocky Mountaineer. Norm Farrar: Yeah, the Rocky Mountaineer. It's a glass-topped train and we're going from Vancouver, I think it's Kamloops, and then over to Lake Louise. And then we're staying at that historic hotel that overlooks Lake Louise. It's beautiful. And ending up over in Calgary the next day. Oh yeah, and we've got the ice fields too. Speaker 3: Yeah, the Ice Hills Parkway. Yeah, we're staying at the Lake Louise at the Fairmont Hotel. So, we got two days on the train with a day in between in a hotel with food on the train, beautiful scenery. This is not an event where we're making presentations. This is 16 entrepreneurs, people from different walks of life just hanging together. And in spending time together and bonding and networking, talking business, talking personal stuff and having a good time. Because we found, you know, this started when we were at an event in Paris at this castle outside of Paris. And one night, you know, we're listening to presentations all day long and there's some good stuff in these presentations. But at the end of the night, we're all sitting around this campfire from like after dinners from like eight o'clock until like three in the morning. And just the talk and the discussions and everything that came out of that. It was just amazing. It was better than the event. And the same thing happens a lot of times when we were just on a cruise together, a seller's cruise back in January for Amazon sellers. And every night you and I would basically hold court out on this balcony and 15, 20 people, sometimes 30 people would join for a cigar or just to sit around. And that's some of the best stuff comes out then from stories that people were telling about old marketing things or stories You know, how they accomplished, overcame some sort of hurdle or just general, just getting to know each other. It's just, it's really cool and chill. And that's what we're trying to do with the CMS events is put together a group of like-minded people just to go and have an awesome experience together and make some good connections. Norm Farrar: Yeah. So yeah, if you are interested, you can just go head over to collective minds, minds with an S society.com. All right, sir. Anything else that we have to catch up on? Speaker 3: No, I think we're good. We've got an awesome guest today. Norm Farrar: We do. Speaker 3: I know you were chatting up here before we started, so I'm looking forward to this. This is someone that was recommended by the guy that was on our second episode, David Gonzalez, was the second Marketing Misfits episode. You know, I've gotten a lot of really good feedback from We're recording this in advance, but the first episode that came out with Katie, I've had a lot of people say that was a really kick-ass episode. So, if you haven't, if you've just discovered us and you haven't listened to it, go back and listen to those early episodes. It's really, really good. Norm Farrar: Yeah. And by the way, if you're going over to the YouTube channel, that AI e-com summit we did the other day is kicking ass. Speaker 3: Yeah, I saw that. I just checked it. It was already within the first few days, it already had 1500 views. Norm Farrar: Yeah. Speaker 3: And it's, it's like a three hour or two and a half hour, three hour thing. Um, but yeah, it's, that was a, that was really good. That was a really good, uh, 24, was it 24 different people we had on there sharing, uh, tips, AI for e-commerce. Norm Farrar: That was six minute tips. Speaker 3: Yep. It was really good. Norm Farrar: So tell me a little bit about Michael. Speaker 3: Michael, I'll tell you a little bit. You know him better than me. You literally had to add him up. David recommended him and said, this is one of the coolest out there marketers. He's a marketing misfit. He's known David Gonzalez, who was a guest on the show and does the internet marketing part. He's known him since the 90s, I think, 1997. So, he goes way back. He runs the Well, he's one of the co-founders of Baby Bathwater, which is a kind of a, I'll let him describe it. I've never actually been to it, but I've heard really good things about it. It's kind of an alternative type of a marketing event. And he's just a all around a really cool guy. So it's going to be some pretty cool stuff. Norm Farrar: All right. So I know Michael's been backstage. Let's bring him on. Speaker 1: There he is. How you doing? Good. Norm Farrar: How are you, Michael? Speaker 1: Doing great. I was actually listening to you guys. I was trying to sign up for the Collective Mind Society thing, but then I couldn't get the link to work. I couldn't get the sign up thing to work. Speaker 3: What do you mean you couldn't get it to work? Speaker 1: I'm on there. I was like, sign up. And then it just goes to some Amazon page. So if I go to register now, it goes to not now. You guys kind of sold me on your preview and I was listening to the preview. I was like trained to the Rockies and I love Lake Louise. I was like going to check it out. I was going to surprise you guys and maybe buy it before I got on. Yeah, I just figured I got to know. I mean, yeah, I was going to check. That sounds like a great shit, by the way. Speaker 3: Yeah, it's going to be awesome. It's going to be really cool. We did one for the F1, like we're talking, and we did it all first class. I mean, we had like a private cabana right on the first turn. Norm Farrar: That was hot. That was awesome. Speaker 3: All the pop concerts and we had like VIP seats for the top concerts. Speaker 1: But this sounds amazing to get on the train and like Lake Louise and Banff. I mean, I used to be a school teacher and I spent the summer of, gosh, summer of 96, me and this girl, we just got in my truck and drove around Canada and all those spots. And we Iraqis in Canada are like a whole other thing. It's crazy. Speaker 3: It's amazing. Norm Farrar: Especially when you get to Vancouver, that's the starting point. You know, it's just such a great town and then taking off from there. I think we're going up around the can loops, aren't we, Kevin? Yeah. Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that's where we spend the night on, on one, which I haven't been to. I've been to Lake Louise and I've been to the other places, but I, but I haven't been there. Speaker 1: It's incredible. Yeah. You said, I was like, check this out. Oh, really cool. Norm Farrar: And you know, we were having this last year, but at Lake Louise in the middle of summer, Book's up pretty quick. Speaker 1: I bet. Norm Farrar: And we decided not to do it because we couldn't get the, uh, the view of the lake. So we postponed it a year and now we booked it and now we have incredible. Yeah, it's going to be awesome. Speaker 1: That sounds amazing. Norm Farrar: We'll fix that link for you, Michael. Speaker 1: Yeah. I was going to get out there and sneak in there. Very cool. Speaker 3: So, Michael, what's your story? What's your background? What's your story? Speaker 1: I'll go real fast. I mean, I'm 54. I'm an older gentleman. My first life, I was a Special Ed teacher. That was kind of always what I wanted to do from the time I was a kid. So that kind of prepared my life for that and then did it for a while and then realized. It's just too hard. So I kind of found myself lost in the mid-twenties. I thought that was what I wanted to do. And then like a lot of people, what you thought you want to do isn't. So I kind of went to, you know, I was in California and they would pay for your school, got residency there. So I went to grad school, still no idea what to do. Just that's what you, you know, before the internet, you didn't know what you want to do. You go to grad school just to buy time. Yeah, I did that. And I actually really enjoyed it. And then I got in a lot of debt and realized I got a job like, yeah, I was part of that startup world in the late 90s in Silicon Valley and I joined a failed startup. So I got involved and I was like max out my cards. And now in retrospect, it was the dumbest idea ever, but I'm like, I'm in startup world, you know, who got involved in one of those scams. So I was one of those people in the 90s who didn't make it, did that and then more debt. And then, yeah, moved to Texas, gosh, like 97 with my tail between my legs and a lot of debt and just started selling. I remember those next telephones that were radios and phones. And you sell them to construction. So basically it's like, you know, one of those jobs anybody can get like $500 base a month on commission. And I would just drive around and try to sell the construction site, you know, and I actually realized I was good at selling shit. I did okay. And then I was like, why isn't anybody marketing? And I met a guy, he's still one of my good friends on a web hosting company. And I started like running my own ads and they were, I sold for them. And then I got like another job selling for Telco. Remember back selling those like T1 lines. It's like, you can get internet in your phone line. Speaker 3: ISDN, you remember those lines? ISDN, $350 a month or something like that. Speaker 1: Yeah, I was on that racket. Yeah, I was always like selling tech and then I ended up doing pretty well. I ended up in the database encryption key management space selling to government and banks. Tech sales dude, you know, like. To get out from under, you know, it's like pretty easy just to, you know, as long as you can kind of fake the technology and sell, you know, and like not care about rejection. So I guess I learned I don't care about. And then I guess when I got married, met a girl in Austin and We were never going to have kids. We were pretty wild. We were partiers and we were just going to party together and live like that. She got pregnant. We were having a baby and then I was like, I'm flying to DC all the time to sell my wares. I want to create my own company and stay. I want to be around. If I'm going to be a dad, I don't want to be a traveling sales guy. I had in grad school, I'd studied unconscious communication, best way to put it. And that can include like trance work, things like that. So it turns out this thing that people think is weird called hypnosis. There's actually academic trance, like hypnosis is real, but not the shit you see on TV and not the like, hey, I'm a hypnotist, this is thing. But there's really good trances like Carol Goodhead's hypnosis program to reduce bleeding during surgery at the Harvard study, that works. So I was like, hey man, there's all these double blind study hypnosis trances in the literature and the academics that I studied. What if somebody were to sell those online, but they were already proven, like not some like 12, you know, some hypnotist saying they can improve your memory and bullshit like that, the real shit that had studied on ego state strengthening, pain management. So I found them and I called up the therapist. Who had done the study is just sitting there in the literature and said, Hey, could I license that? Have you re-recorded the studio? And I became like a record label for shrinks who had published transits. And I called it a hypnosis network. And like anybody else is out of my bedroom at first. Um, and then. It worked and because we became like the go-to, the New York Times wanted to write an article about hypnosis, they call us up because everybody had a doctorate. It was like real at this sketchy new age that we actually had science and it was real and got that to high seven figures and pretty good margin and I paid, it's like a record label. I mean, I paid them a royalty. And I did all the marketing and it was CDs back then, you know, and then we kind of moved to MP3s and then what I saw that was going to cap out, like there's no way to make that like a high figure business. But I had a bunch of doctors who were selling for me, like it was mainly affiliate models too. So I had all the best-selling doctors, like the Mark Hyman, the Daniel Amen, Sarah Godfrey, all the people who read all the books. Our stuff was good and proven, so I had all those docs. We were making a lot of money with me and we were in their offices, like we were in that Eamon Brain Clinic. But I was like, I'm greedy. And I was like, how do I make more money? And they were like, we don't have good supplements. Meaning, they didn't have like elite stuff and they were tired of zymogen and metagenic and all the position breaks. So me and a doctor and another guy, Buck, he's a good MarTech guy, we created just four SKUs of like four women with hormone issues, sold through doctors as a channel, and then took a direct. And that in about three years got to about 50 million a year. And then, I had to go and then what I realized was like I got so big I hated it. I love starting it. And then it got to be what I call a real company and I'm not a leader or certain personality types. I had to go, so I got bought out by my partner and an investor and left that, gosh, 12 years ago. Norm Farrar: What was the name of it? Speaker 1: Real Dose Nutrition. It was Right Ingredient Real Dose. It doesn't exist anymore. But we took the FDA guideline, so we had the right ingredient. Meaning, let's say you're buying Astragon and there's a clinical study on it, right? Well, you don't know, when somebody says, like I hate to say it, you're on Amazon, oh look, we got 500 milligrams of Astragon. From where? So basically, I go to the research and I get the same exact source of the ingredient as used in the research. So I knew exactly what it was. It's a lot more expensive, a lot harder. And I actually use the dose of the clinical study. And so, if you go to 99% of the people on Amazon selling supplements, they might have the right dose, they don't got the right ingredient. I mean, imagine like you grow a tomato in a parking lot in Iowa on like city soil versus like lush soil. It's going to be a more healthy tomato, right? And then you extract the lycopene from the tomato. Well, you're going to have more lycopene in one or the other. How are you extracting it? How are you testing? We were that, we were high, high end, proven and that got, that's why, and it's a good message and then we had the doctors behind it. Speaker 3: How do you do that message? How do you actually differentiate when people don't know what they're getting? Speaker 1: We were real though, writing, reading, well you have your slogan, writing, reading, girl does, pretty easy to remember or it's alliteration. And then you have all the doctors they follow talking about it. So if you can launch with partners who are credible, Right? It's a lot easier to get your message out because they already have the following. And then once they believe, they'll tell you. And then I don't know, as we went after everybody, like I'm, I'm an attack marketer. So like, really good at making people look bad and suck. So like, we just went after him and told the truth. And like, you know, don't buy something before you read this and have a bunch of articles about it. And we trained the market. Don't buy it until you look at it. You don't even know that that's not that. Speaker 3: It's basically an education campaign. Not dissing them directly, but saying, look, this is what we need. Speaker 1: And we had the first VSL for a cell phone company ever. Not the first VSL, but the first 45-minute VSL for a cell phone company ever made. We made that. We wrote it ourselves. It was pretty powerful. So the people who watched that understood by the end. Speaker 3: Is this all online marketing or were you doing a television or anything else? Speaker 1: No, it's just online. I mean, we were just, we couldn't keep up with that. That's to say we were starting to implode when I left. I'm like, I kind of think we weren't built right, if that makes sense. Like we marketed right, we get product, but we weren't. We weren't built right as a company. Does that make sense? Like I know that now, but we were. Speaker 3: I mean, you didn't have the layers and the structure in and the processes and the systems. You're just running by the seat of your pants or what is that? Speaker 1: I think there's a problem with growing too fast. Especially if you're not, none of us are really seasoned entrepreneurs, I'd say like adults maybe. And we just, we grew fast and none of us was adults enough to understand what that meant. And so we started, you could see it tearing at the seams. Little things go wrong. We spent like $70,000 a day on media to keep track of and just crazy. We knew we were positive, but it got weird and then sometimes we'd set match problems. Norm Farrar: There's a great book. I don't know. I hope I get his name right. Jeffrey Archer, Crossing the Chasm. And it talks about how important it is for that infrastructure and that rapid growth. And you just can't do it unless you have the infrastructure or the planning. It's a great book, by the way. Speaker 1: Yeah. Or The Right Brain. I mean, I personally, I think I could read every book in mankind is still not built. So you got to figure out who you are. I think it's the right brain and the right brain, right experience and right book, right coaching. Norm Farrar: Especially, yeah, with growth, you sometimes you got to replace yourself. Speaker 1: Yeah, I wish anyway, but that was like kind of got me there. And then I became a workaholic. So the whole reason I started a company is to be a better family man. So I had a nice savings and so that's when Baby Bathwater started. So, Hollis who's still right here, you know, my partner in that, we started Baby Bathwater because we had been to all the other masterminds. I met them on the circuit. I joined every, I joined every platform. And a lot of good, but a lot of bathwater. That's where we were Baby Bathwater. There's a lot of cool stuff about the masterminds, but a lot of bullshit. And so we were like, let's do our own and try to take the baby from the stuff we like about Groups and events and minimize the bathwater. You're never a bathwater, as you know, no way to be perfect. And we did that, but I did it mainly so I could It's just different, like it's not the same kind of pressure. So it's a lot of busy work, but I got to be, when I got home and I like to go to Penobscot, when I got home at four or five, I totally attentive to my family and my daughter and just very 20, you know, 23 years my wife now, like it was really good for that, that having all that pressure. And as you know, these, you run one, a mastermind, there's not a lot of money in it. I mean, you do okay, but it's not like everybody thinks these things make a lot of money or crazy. So, you do it for the love of it. If you don't love it, you can't do it. So, it's great and really fun and a great group, but as you know, you don't bring it home. You're not bringing home the bacon. People think you're making money, but by the time you look at all that, you're not. It's not a business. It's a movement. You know what I'm saying? Really fun to do and it's so cool and I love Baby Bathwater. But yeah, it's not a business. Calling. It's just fun. You know, there's more fun than it is. It's not like you're, you're not raking it home or nothing like that kind of thing. But that was that. And then now I, my daughter's off in college and she's well adjusted. And now I, and I just exited Baby Bathwater, really good term. I'm not going to be like member of the year, go to everything, but I'm now leaving. Cause I'm bored and I want to start like, I want to get back into like super marketing like that. So it's kind of funny. I'm kind of back on the hunt for a company to start that kind of world. Uh, so it could kind of get time. I just, my last day was last Tuesday. So I kind of started baby bathwater with Hollis and that's going to go even better. I think, and also, you know, when you have partners, sometimes it's time for one guy to take over and I think it's going to even get better now that I'm gone. It's going to be fun to watch. Be a member. Speaker 3: So what makes it different than for people listening on your website, it says that, you know, is it a mastermind? Is it a conference? What is it? So you have like a, like a kind of heavy outdoor kind of more, I don't know, hippies, the right word? Speaker 1: No, not hippie. Not hippie. The events, because it's actually a community if you don't repeat, but the main thing is people selection. So it's highly curated. And what I mean by curated is we decided to be the only group that curates on personality. So the price will take care of the success thing. We realized these masterminds that Yeah, I joined to make bigger ones. People are successful, but if you don't really like people, they're not your speed, it's really hard to want to help. So I found myself helping a certain type of person and not really wanting to help certain people. Certain attitude, I didn't enjoy personally and Hollis as well. And so we were like, hey, there's a bunch of people like us who I hate to say aren't status monkeys that are in it, but not to be a big deal. They're like, hey, no look at me type people. People who really want to help, like really genuine people that like, you know, you're either born with it or not really. I can enjoy helping people, like really generous people, super kind. And also, like, I love this misfit thing. People don't quite fit in. And it's not like, hey, look, I'm a burner, or look, I'm a this or look, I'm a punk. It's like, they're off a little bit like something's their own thing. And so we collect people who are their own thing, whatever way it is. Like, it's not like, look, doesn't need to be crazy or hippie or whatever. It's just, they're a little, they think different and they act a little different and they're, so they're kind, generous and they're just a little awkward and they like a good time. And they want to talk a lot. They want to have a good time. They want to listen to good music, you know, let go, have fun and be safe. And then we also have like, this is not a networking group. Don't sell your wares here. You're not allowed. If you come in to get new business, you can't do it. Don't come here to sell people. Don't come here asking me to promote your book. Don't come here asking for money for your new project. Come here to be. So it's the people first. And then if you're going to have good people, then you provide a great setting when they get together. So our events are, we only take over venues where we're the only people there. Nobody else can be there. So we're not going to share a hotel with somebody or any of that. Totally private. 24 sevens. I mean, if you want to drink at 4am, you can get it. Eat whatever you want. And so the idea, and then give something for people to do. So instead of making them sit around a circle or be here, it's totally freedom. And so we have great content, but always, you know, three times a day, there's three choices of something to learn. Or don't go, or go snorkeling, or go play a sport. There's always like swimming and just, or go out in the boat. So go on the boat or go catch some content. So you can just be that way, right? And you're not, you don't have to show up for anything. And we just found with our type of people, because they talk their faces off and like talking to each other and helping each other out and laughing. Everybody's just laughing all the time and helping each other with their business, but also personally. And give them a setting where they can just chill. And we also got rid of the status stuff, like no VIP tickets allowed, no VIP dinners, everybody's equal. And why we do all-inclusive is so nobody can go, like, I found that the other masterminds I was at, like, the really rich people would go out to, like, the really expensive steakhouse and see who could spend the most money and then the other people were left out. And I was like, none of that. So no, no, like, no showing, no showing how badass you are, like, none of that. And so we curate, you have to interview with us to get into an event. And then to become a member, the members have to vote you in. And when they vote you in, it's not about how successful you are. It's like, were you nice? Were you not creepy? Did you not sell anything? Really easy to get in. As long as she's a nice person. But hard to get in if you're not nice. So, folks, it's kind of the easiest thing to get into the world because it's not competitive that way. Because we don't care. We never even ask you how much you make or any of that. People do well. We have some people who do like, and also a lot of nobodies. I mean, like we're A lot of people even don't know their name, but they do really well. And it's not just online. People change the bar, huge chains of window stores. So, there's people who do all kinds of cool stuff. It's not just online. Speaker 3: How do you find them? How do you recruit for that? Is it word of mouth? Speaker 1: It's mainly word of mouth. We run some ads here and there and they've done okay, but no, almost 95% referral. Speaker 3: How'd you get that going in the beginning though, just by, how'd you get that fly? Speaker 1: Well, we knew because when we started, Hollis had a hookup at the Mountain Town in Utah, so it was a good venue and we could ski. And then we knew a lot of people then, we were in all the other groups. The first time we did it, it was just like 40 or 50 people and we seeded it with the right people. We knew the right, you know, it's just our Rolodex, like who do we actually like? Like, he's actually fun. I mean, when I say like, like he's nice. Both of us kind of have an aversion to cool people. So, like, we're kind of like a little anti-cool people. Not anti, like, you know, you know what I'm saying? Like, cool, like, just nice folks who are neat. And we had enough of them to get started. That we're in our, that we are in our world. That makes sense. Speaker 3: Yeah. What's a classic? Speaker 1: Now it's 12,500 all inclusive. Speaker 3: 12,500 and to be a member? Speaker 1: And then wrote it in 12,500 to be a member and then you get half off of every event. Speaker 3: And how many events for a year? Speaker 1: Three. Norm Farrar: Three? Speaker 1: And they're cool. Like we got one in New York sold out June. I can't wait for that. And that's going to be upstate New York on a lake. Very like fun. And then that one in October, the Hilton Head on the beach kind of like Divey, but fun, like really cool beach vibe. And that's in October and that's going to be a blast too. That one's just still shit left, like New York's sold it. And it's kind of weird, they sell out. But yeah, the Hilton Head one in October is going to be a blast. And I get to go, New York will be my first one as a guest. Like I don't have to go early and set up anymore. So, I'll have my first experience as a guest in New York. So, I can't wait. Speaker 3: Do you bring the wife with you or is it just you that goes? Speaker 1: No, you only can bring your spouse if they're in business. Okay. It's not fair to the other attendee. No, if we're talking business, it's not fair to the other people. No, we have a lot of, we have a lot of couples going, so a lot of couples come, but they're both in the business. Now, my wife, like, she's not into business. She does come sometimes the last night because she likes to party with us, but she'll come after everybody's done talking business and have fun and come to the last night dinner and have fun with us. But she ain't in, she's just not into, you know, she doesn't want to touch, you know, bore her silly. Speaker 3: How long is an event last? How many days is it? Speaker 1: Um, four days. Speaker 3: Four days. Cool. And y'all do them internationally too. I think you did one. I know. Speaker 1: Yeah, we do create. Yeah, we did create somewhere. Yeah. We take over an Island in Croatia every once in a while and that's five days because we figured the jet lag. That's a, that's a, that's, that's crazy. We can't do that every year. Everybody quit. It's a lot of work, but it's magical. It's just us on the island. It's kind of crazy. Speaker 3: Are these mostly Americans that are in it or is it people from all over the world? Speaker 1: Well, probably 80% American, 20% international. Speaker 3: Cool. Norm Farrar: I remember back in the day, and this is probably in the 80s, late 80s. I went to this event and Kevin, I think I told you about this. This is a guy that would not be part of your organization. So I went in, he went to reach out, shake my hand. I shook his hand. In my hand was a piece of paper. And I'm going like, what the? I open it up. It's a check. He goes, and that's what I made last month. I just went, oh my God, get me out of here and get me out of here quick. Speaker 1: I guess another thing we did well is we were almost half females now. So it makes our events very different. Um, it's not, we're kind of anti-bro too. So. No bro culture, it's just people and then it's a place where females are safe and then we do a little bit older too. So, it's like, you know, like it's fun 30s, 40s, you know, and then I'm in my 50s and they're not just all guys, you know, and because I go to other events, it's like 80% guys go to ours, like, 40, 45% female, I think makes a big difference in the vibe. They all own their own, and they own their own shit, and it's great. But that's kind of, yeah, and hopefully it goes on forever, because I want to be going to it. Speaker 3: Back on this hypnosis thing that you did for a while. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Speaker 3: A lot of people misunderstand hypnosis. They think it's something that's entertainment, you know, when you go to Vegas or something. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Speaker 3: Somebody hypnotizes people and they do crazy stuff. But I think a lot of good things where it can help solve depression, it can help solve a lot of like serious issues. And how does it, I've never understood how does that work? How does actually, how do you actually How do you actually get someone to get into that state where they jump up and down like a monkey if you tell them to? Speaker 1: Well, that's different. Very different things. So the stage people, which I love. That's fun. That's entertainment. And a good stage person is really fun, right? But that's not clinical. That's not going to help your problems. And that's really using It's group psychology there. So if you've ever been to like a large group awareness training, it's the psychology of the group. So unconsciously, you don't want to disappoint. You don't want to make the person look bad. And they're also really good at selecting the right people. So some people are, so you're really playing along. They're jumping like a chicken, but it's hypnosis and a trick thing, but it's a very different kind of hypnosis than clinical. And it's really cool, but it's relying on the group pressure and they're really performing. It's what's happening. So they're along for the ride and they're unconsciously performing with the person. That's what's going on there. And it's really fun, neat, but it's not like the kind of hypnosis that's going to like help resolve something. Speaker 3: Right. Speaker 1: Very different. And when those guys start to dabble in that, they should be in jail. Very different and not what they should do. The hypnosis that might help you with something, again, It's a tool used by psychologists to help a certain thing. So it's not always appropriate. It's a good tool. And all hypnosis is at the end of the day, it's a relaxed state of focused attention. And it's really an attention game, right? And if you're willing to, it's a fit, you know, you have these chances of studies, like there's an induction where you're starting to focus in and then if you'll allow The guide, the person doing the hypnosis, to get in there as a chunk of consciousness, you can let go, you can do some really interesting work with beliefs and behaviors. And so at the end of the day, you have to get permission. And so some people, there's nobody not hypnotizable, that's SheGo bullshit, but you do have to kind of want to. So the clinical, you want it and then you have to implicitly uncostly trust the guide. And sometimes like some of our, you know, like it's not the right fit and you're not going to be hypnotized. You're not going to kind of benefit that way because something about whatever's going on, you're like some part of yourself like, no, not going there. But when it's right and you do, you're now like, so you can basically have, you have five plus or minus two, depending on who you are, things you can pay attention to at any time. Your conscious mind can pay attention to five plus or minus two thing. You can get a good therapist who knows hypnosis, you can give some of that to that person. And now you're not having to like pay attention. And you can let go and then with suggestions and then also within the state, that's where I get therapist matters. So then you can actually like make a dent. And it's really, really helpful for pain management. It's really helpful for ego strengthening. It's really good for like some self esteem thing. It's really good for phobias and fears. If not, there's never been any research I've ever seen that's from memory, but there's a million people selling it. The research doesn't support that. I don't think it'd be good for depression. It might be a mini tool within a whole rubric of depression therapy. I would never say somebody like clinically depressed to go get hypnotized. It's going to solve your problem. I could see it as part of a package. Like a good therapist will have tools, I would hope, and hypnosis might or might not be one of them. So it's not an all-in-one, but it makes a good debt, especially for pain or self-esteem or phobias or things like that of that nature. That makes sense. But it's not a cure-all by any means, but it's a really effective adjunct to whatever you're doing. That make sense? Speaker 3: Yeah, I know some people use it in combination with like, what's that, the EMDR or something? Speaker 1: EMDR and hypnosis go well together. Speaker 3: Light therapy and hypnosis go together. Speaker 1: Yeah, they go well together. Speaker 3: With PTSD and stuff like that. Speaker 1: But it really should only be in the hands of real therapists. I'm really anti people getting certified. Like if you just take a 12 week training and you're seeing people, I think you should not do that. Like I would never do it. I'm not a therapist. I've like edited so many thousands of hours of hypnosis and even helped script. I would never in a million years see a client. I'm just simply not qualified. So I don't, I think a lot of people take it too lightly. I think it should be only in the hands of a real, a trained therapist who's licensed in this state, in my opinion. Not by motivational speakers, not by those people. A lot of people who are guru types have it in their arsenal and I think it's dangerous. Norm Farrar: So you weren't doing self-help. This was more for training for professionals. Is that correct? Speaker 1: No, it's self-help. It is, but it's from doctorate level, if I call it. And it's really cheap. I mean, it's like $97 for a program. Very, you know, in the, we have one, like we, Roberta Tema's heard, we had one for diet adherence. It would just make it more likely to follow the diet you've been given to. We had a lot of people who were dieticians or people who wrote bestselling books on how their diets would sell our program because They're more likely to follow the program, like Mark Hyman, like back then he was on the thyroid diet. Well, people were more likely to follow his program if they had our program with them. So it's a really good adjunct for adherence. Like, you know, just told you, like, find a thing to follow and it'll help you follow it. And personal trainers love it. So we had a big channel of those people selling it because their programs would work better if they got up. Does that make sense? Speaker 3: So they're hypnotizing themselves? It taught them how to do it to themselves? Speaker 1: No, they got a CD. People listen to it at home. Speaker 3: Okay. So you just listen to the CD and the guy on the CD or the woman or man would hypnotize the person as they listening. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. Speaker 1: 25 minutes. And then over time, like they diet adherence form by Roberta, I mean, There's like 90% more, we've studied it, like 90% more likely to follow the diet they're given. And so people who had diet cell or dieticians that was just really positive here, take the CD home or buy that CD and then we give them an affiliate commercial. So it was just, that was the channel. And we had like famous sports psychologists and a lot of coaches and stuff, but then like, hey, go buy that. It's like that was only two sessions, like 45 bucks and go buy that, you know, and then that would make their training better, that kind of thing. Speaker 3: Did you have any kind of continuity on that from a marketing point of view or upsells or anything? Speaker 1: No, ethically. So, for that, no, I couldn't do it ethically. No, we sold it to them. A lot of people go back and buy a different program because it worked from a different therapist. But no, we decided not to do that. I decided, and I know how to do all that. I know, like Bill Harris at CenterPoint, I know how to do that. I just thought it was unethical and I was doing just fine. We were affiliate for good stuff, but no, I didn't. Want to do that to people. I didn't want to take people who weren't doing well in their mental life and take more money from them. I thought I felt good about a hundred bucks. You know, if they went, if they liked it, want to buy some different program for another hundred bucks. Great. We were doing enough volume. Yeah. I could have made a lot more. It just didn't seem right. I didn't get in this game to do that shit. Speaker 3: You're kind of early on that too. I mean, this was what, in the 2000s? Yeah, I lost in 2004. So, I mean, with all the mental health stuff now, has it come back to you? Is there someone else to do it? I know you said you're not doing that anymore. Is that company still around or is someone else crushing it? Speaker 1: That's gone too. I'm going to leave that go away. It'd be a great time for that. But there's actually like, you know, she goes doing some good stuff in the space. There's a lot and then guided, you know, the difference between guided imagery and hypnosis is very distinct. I'm, though, Ruth Napster, I'm health journeys. I think she actually is real out of all. I go to their like, health journeys, though, Ruth, I think she's still around. It's really good guided imagery and some hypnosis and I'd refer people to her all the time. If our stuff didn't work, I'd be like, sorry for wasting your time. Here's a gift certificate. She's over there. I think she's the only game in town that I would like call ethical. It's in high quality, but yeah, it'd be a good time for it. And then, you know, Siegel over at Stanford, he's just doing great direct medical hypnosis, which is good. I think it's limited, but it's good. It'd be a good time for it. I just don't know if I want to do it. Speaker 3: Is it a challenge to market that because of the misconceptions? Speaker 1: It was for us, yeah. But then again, the partner model was so great, having the experts. So I would go every day, I had no money at the beginning. Anybody blogging, anybody with a following, I'd say, hey, I read your blog, blah, blah, blah, I think you might be interested in this program, you know, blah, blah, really nice, really personal letters, emails, and then I'd say, do you want to try it? And they'd say, sure, usually, I'd send them the thing, and then I just followed up, just over and over and over, and then they'd say, I really liked it, I was like, what did you like about it? They say blah, blah, blah. And I say, can you write that? Sure. And then I'll give you a commission. So is this really like coaching them how to like do that? And that's all I did. I was a sales guy before. Every day, my Rolodex, potential partner, every day, calling them up and sending the thing and following up and again, like not giving them some swipe. Like, what do you like about it? How would you do it? And then coaching them through it. You do that every day for a couple of years, you got a lot of affiliates. Norm Farrar: One of the. Speaker 1: Not this. Wham bam. Thank you, man. You have to work. Norm Farrar: That's that's what I was going to touch on is that it sounds like, yeah, you were a sales guy getting out there every day. I know a lot of those guys, too, but a lot of them are very unethical. And the way that your approach, you did it, you were ethical and How many other salespeople would not try to do the old upsell, downsell, cross sell, you know, that's pretty. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 3: Yeah. Speaker 1: It just didn't seem right for that. Not against it in something, but mental health is a little too serious to be doing that. Norm Farrar: Right. Speaker 1: It just seems a little off to do that to somebody because they're, they're vulnerable. Yeah. That's a weird thing to do. Norm Farrar: Yeah. Speaker 1: Yeah. So yeah, I made a lot of enemies. I went out with a lot of stuff I believed in and to stop a lot of people. Pissing off people is a great way to market, I figured out. I've done that my whole life. Speaker 3: That's an interesting point. I always say the same thing. I say, if you're pleasing everybody, you're pleasing nobody. I agree. I've told stories of this to Norm and stuff about my newsletter where someone will complain to high heaven about something that I put in my newsletter and say, this is inappropriate. And I actually love it when I get that. I actually love it when... If it's everybody, that's a problem. But when you get a couple, People that are very vocal and very offended from a from a misfit or marketing point of view. Why is it? What have you learned about? You just said that, you know, you found that pissing off people is really good marketing. Can you elaborate on that a little bit? Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, I took show that does this thing like that. There's the National, I mean, I'll just say it, the National Girl of Hypnosis, they make all the money certifying people, right? 12 weeks, find a friend, get his cat certified. So I went out there with his cat, Dr. Zoe, with the certificate, and found a lot of media around it. Good attention, right? Just wow. But that got me a lot of traffic, you know, like a lot of traffic. And then I had to convince them like, hey, but there is, and then, I don't know, but remember the, you're old enough, remember the secret, the documentary came out in 2008? Right, yeah. The crazy new age. So, they wanted me to be an affiliate. So, like they sent out DVDs to everybody. I had a big list at the time and they, you know, like, oh, he's going to have the deepest love, this shit. They sent me the movie. And then I was like, I watched it. I remember me and my wife were like, oh my God. And so I wrote back, not only am I not your affiliate, I'm your enemy. And so I had about 150,000 people on my list and then I wrote an article the next day called The Power of Negative Thinking, which is actually good. Negative thinking is actually very helpful. Psychologically, and there's a lot of research behind thinking negatively is very powerful and good. I mean, like for self-help, if you actually understand psychology. And I basically said, yeah, and then I just backed, just, I was like, positive thinking, like the dumbest thing ever. Manifestation, what are you talking about? So this went off and I got about 10% of my lists unsubscribed, but then in a month it was double. Everybody started talking about it, sharing it with their friends. I had a bunch of people call me. I made friends for life. I don't know a lot of business alliances have that email. And I just attacked them for like a month. And it gave me a whole new following, a lot of brands that I wanted to associate with us. And yeah, if I lost 10%, gained way more just by, because I was like, I even said in the middle, like, I hate But I proved it with science. So I was like, this is really dangerous. Speaker 3: Did anybody ever come after you legally for doing that? Speaker 1: Not what I got to do. Norm Farrar: It's an opinion. Speaker 1: Tell me they can prove manifestation. Speaker 3: The opinion, yeah. The cat has a certificate. Speaker 1: Prove that you can like put dollar signs on your wall, look at them and become a billionaire. Like give me a break. You know, like give me, it's just crazy. Or they're saying stuff like if you're sick, it's because you brought it upon yourself. Like that's terrible to worry. Really dangerous shit. Speaker 3: I mean, you did the same thing with Baby Bathwater. You just said that it's all about the people and you're very selective. So it's about finding your tribe and finding your group. And too many people, I think, when it comes to marketing, they want to be fearing PC. They don't want to offend anybody. What if this one group over here doesn't like us? And I think that's that. Recently, with all this cancel culture, I don't know if you saw it, but the roast of Tom Brady on Netflix. Speaker 1: That's amazing. Speaker 3: I don't know if you saw that or not, but I was like... This is freaking, you know, some of it was really funny. Some of it was like, okay, next, someone else get somebody else up there. But the un-PC-ness of that. That's amazing. And I heard people talking about it the next day on some of the sports talk shows about this actually may be a good thing for this camp to get rid of some of this camp culture. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 3: I think it was good. What do you think from the marketing point of view of Tom Brady, who's successful, he's got all of his money, putting himself out there like that and doing that when he's trying to get a career in broadcasting and still going to be working with the NFL? What do you think from a marketing misfit? Speaker 1: It's going to be great for him because people think he's too plastic and so he's not. And then Dollar Check came out really good. It's going to do well for him. The cancer culture thing is what it is, but it's just taking a stand. The cancer culture is one thing. I don't know if I want to go into that, but it's just taking a stand and playing it out and not worrying about getting everybody. Baby Bathwater is fantastic for somebody like me and a lot of people, but there's Other great group. I think there's other great business mastermind that is for somebody else. Like it's not like, oh, we're the best. Everybody else sucks. I have like some things suck, but there are other great groups that are just maybe not my cup of tea where people interview and apply. I send them somewhere else sometimes. I'm like, you're not going to get like, we're not for you, but you're great. Go over there. It's also just knowing You don't have to get everybody and also not everybody suck, just like knowing where you're for or you're not, being honest about it. And then it's not even bashing at it with the supplements it was, people were doing criminal shit or hypnosis, but in the business mastermind world, I don't really do a lot of bashings. I think there's a lot of great groups, but we're just for a certain type. And just being really clear about what you're for and what you're not, because you don't want somebody to come to your thing and not be happy, right? I mean, why do you want somebody to come to your event if it's not for them? What's the point of it? No point. Speaker 3: There's no point. Speaker 1: They're not going to come back anyway. So, and then there's other groups for them that are great. There's a lot of, I mean, like you have one, I mean, like, I'm like, I want to go on your train ship, right? And it's just different. And also, it's also time in your life. There's a lot of variable for Who you want to be around when and it's all good. I think there's actually a lot of masterminds out there, more so like we started 10 years ago. There's a lot of new ones popping up that I really like. Speaker 3: What is it about the people that you're around that makes the biggest, what's that saying that the five people you're hanging around with the most is two years down? Do you have any truth to any of that or do you think that's just a marketing? Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything much like truth. I mean, there is who you're around. I mean, it's contagious for sure. But I don't know, man. It also depends on your goals. I mean, sure, yeah, if you want to hang around and be successful, then maybe if you're only around people thinking that way, it'll rub off for sure. And then you're more likely to be successful. But that's never been my goal. But I think, yeah, I think there might be some truth to that. For me personally, it's not what I'm about. I kind of like to hang around with like a lot of nondifferent people. I like to hang around with a variety of folks who are different than me, more for a richness of life kind of thing. So I kind of violate that. Maybe that's why I'm not rich. I prefer to do well enough. I like to be around business people and I do like to learn but I choose to be around a little more misfitty people. I enjoy them more and I enjoy that life better because humor is super important to me and just chill and I like to be around non-business people. So they rub off on me because it's not all about that for me. I mean, I'm ambitious, but then I like to be around unambitious people. It's like, stop that shit sometimes. Just stop all that crap. I can get caught up in it like anybody else. I have a crew that doesn't give a shit about business stuff and that's healthy for me. You know what I'm saying? Speaker 3: So how do you differentiate between it's time to be serious and time to play? Speaker 1: That's a tough question. I think I don't know where to play. It's funny because I'm starting over now and I'm trying to get serious. So, I don't know. And I'm trying to actually figure out that how to be more serious. Like right now, it's like I want to be one more rodeo, kind of like I just I want to do it. And it is hard to get that frame of mind because I've been at it for so long. So, I don't know. I'm actually looking for that answer. I don't have much there. I haven't figured it out yet. Speaker 3: What are some things that you're thinking about right now that you may go into or some of the things you're toying with? Speaker 1: Well, actually, it's a fun thing. So, when I was thinking about leaving Baby Bathwater, After I realized my pipe, my daughter's doing fine, like stop calling me from college. I'm like, okay, she's happy now. She's not calling, you know, they stopped calling her. All right. So I was like, I want to change. And then I was like, I'm 54 and I'm a social science researcher and I have no idea how to make a fucking decision according to science. Right. I'm like, I literally, how do I make a decision? Right. So I did a little research and I still like research and there's a lot of really proven frameworks for making good decisions that are in the academic literature. And so I sat like making frameworks, right, to make a good decision. And then I was like, then I started talking to all my entrepreneurs head. I was like, hey, how many decisions you make a week where if you make the wrong one, you might lose a little money? Right? Almost everyone's like, well, the average, by the way, in my informal survey of 40 entrepreneurs now is Jeff. Seven decisions a week that kind of matter. How many big ones a month? One or two. But seven, like, if I make the wrong one, it's financial consequence. Not huge, maybe, but real enough. And like, how do you make decisions? Almost nobody had a process that they did to be like my gut or I compare the pros and the cons like really something like really kid. So, one idea I had was I might create a decision making course for founders. On how to make a decision with different framework and then create a at the back to give you a decision so i have a partner that you can like. She's a bad ass a i've heard and it also. Add a professor at miami like it's just used to be sealer world of warcraft run fucking coding teams so we might come out with. A product for founders and executives on decision-making. That's one idea. Cause I'm like, but then I'm not sure. Cause it's exciting to me a little bit, but it's not like, how do I say it? Like I think it would do well, but is it low? And then how big could it get? I don't know. So that's an idea. But then the first step of decision-making is the writing your option. So like the first step in any decision making process is like never just have one thing, never have two, never have three, you need three or more before you even start to make a choice. So I'm widening my options. That's like one idea because I think it's valuable, but then that one, do I really do it or do I get it started and leave it? And that one's fun intellectually, but I don't know how big that could get. Does that make sense? And then I really, really love product and health. So I'm dabbling around with some friends about creating a skincare line or something like that. I might do that. I'm not sure. And that could be really fun because I think I have access to. Ingredients somebody else had that I could really make a change there. So, interested in that. And then I have, I didn't create an association. There's some stuff I can't tell you, but I have two other ideas that aren't, that I can't quite reveal yet. But yeah, I'm in that mode where I'm trying to widen the option as opposed to just doing the first thing I think of. Speaker 3: Are you looking for something that's just going to fulfill you? Speaker 1: Both. Well, actually, there's always a way to look at it. I work with a high cash flow. I wanted to make a lot of money. But yeah, I want to have one more, like I said, Baby Bathwater has been a sabbatical of sorts, meaning it's been 10 years of like, you know, not making a lot of money. So it'd be nice to have one more hit. So psychologically and just for the money, and you might not have a lot of money. So I'm greedy that way. So both. I want it to like be something that lights me up, but I also want to make real money one more time. Speaker 3: What would you say is your superpower then when you're making this decision? What is your inherent superpower that across all these businesses that you've done, the hypnosis, the selling, the baby bathwater, the nutrients, what is it? Speaker 1: I think it's a creativity. I think the things I think of are actually a little different and they work. I mean, all our little ideas I've had have worked. I've had other things in the middle that work. It's the creativity of the idea and I can start something for a year on my own. I mean, like me and I have a year in me to get something started. Like I can be tenacious for a year and I kind of do know the steps. So like I can take, I think create a pretty unique brand idea and I don't mind starting, meaning like I could do those things and get the right people and like get something going. My reverse superpower is operating in leadership. I've never been good at that. So that's my unsuperpower is that cause I get bored. But yeah, I think that's the, I'm pretty good at like looking at an ecosystem and a market and understanding the gap and have a pretty good idea. Of like what's missing and then how to, right. And then coming in with something that's different and that's, that's solving a need. Like Baby Bathwater, there's nothing like that. There's nothing like it. That's network. There's nothing like real dose. Like we solved a problem. You see a market, where's the flaw? You know, in the, in the decision-making one, like nobody's even thinking of, which is, you know, and then that would be inventing a discipline, but. Everybody's teaching self-help and all this founder structure and how do you do your day and the perfect morning and all that, but I'm like, all that's great, but if you can't make a decision right, what's the matter? So, I think there's a gap in all the entrepreneur training. Norm Farrar: I think that's fantastic. Speaker 1: When I think of decision making, I'm like, what's the one So it's a good app and all these entrepreneurs have become self-help beings and all that self-help is great and I'm for it all. There's so many good people teaching so many good things to entrepreneurs about self-growth and I think it's really good people out there, but I think they're missing this one thing. So why not come out with the one thing? I'm pretty good at finding the gap, I guess, or if I go to skincare, the one I'm looking at, There's nothing, it's solving the problem. I mean, there's nobody with it. Norm Farrar: One of the things that you've solved, just to go back a bit, knowing your strengths. So especially in partnerships, if you go out there and you want to start a new business, Kevin and I, for example, you know, we have different, you know, different strengths. And you were talking about, you know, operations, you know, that and so many people will go in with people that have the exact same strengths that they screw themselves right from the beginning. You know, but what you talked about, knowing those strengths and even before knowing your audience that you're going after makes a huge difference. Yeah. Speaker 1: Yeah. You got to know who you're going after and you don't have to get everybody. So all you have to get is a certain percentage of the people, you know, like you have to find the people that want what you have and they have to be enough of them, but you don't have to get everybody. I mean, some people don't care if their stuff looks suck. It's not a deal. Some people like new age and they don't care if there's science behind their stuff. Great. It is what it is. Yeah, partnerships are fun. I've always had a partner. I enjoy it. I'd rather work. And also it's like knowing yourself. I'm not a I am not a maverick. Like, I'm not a guy. I'm not like a man. I don't like to be like, I'm not a loner. I like to like win with other people. So, I know that about myself. Like, it's not fun for me unless I have a partner to like win with. It's just not. So, like, but I know that some people are totally fine on it and they're like, they pull all the strings and they like it. Like, I like to talk to somebody and reality test and, you know, I like to have a partner and I like to talk a lot. I'd like to have a partner to talk to and yeah, but I'm not this lone guy genius dude who can just think of it all. I like to have somebody to be creative with and do stuff with and be accountable toward. So, and I know that. So, I'm not ever going to start like the Michael Lovitch and I also know I like to be behind the scene. So, it's little things like that. Speaker 3: Well, this has been great, Michael. This has been awesome. We've been going at this over an hour already. It feels like we're just getting started. Speaker 1: I know, this is fun. I like it. Speaker 3: Cool. If people want to learn more about you or find out or follow you, what's the best way to do that? Speaker 1: Obviously, if you want to go to Baby Bathwater, it's babybathwater.com. If you're feeling this, definitely the best event and group is DisResonate. And then me, just find me on, I guess, I don't really like social media, but I'm disciplining myself to be on LinkedIn a lot. So I'm going to start doing a lot on LinkedIn. So there's Michael Lovitch, whatever the URL is. Um, LinkedIn is a place that I'm responding to people messaging me. Let you know, there's not many Michael Leviticus. I think I'm pretty easy to fire. Unknown Speaker: Anyway. Speaker 1: Yeah. I like what you could do with the, this podcast and the backend thing you guys are doing. It sounds really, really cool. I'll probably reach out to you guys after this, but what you're doing could be interesting. Unknown Speaker: All right. Norm Farrar: All right. Well, thanks for coming on. Speaker 3: Thanks, Michael. Unknown Speaker: Yeah. Norm Farrar: All right, buddy. That was awesome. Speaker 3: That was good. People always tell you make these podcasts like 30 minutes because people aren't going to listen. Speaker 1: How? Speaker 3: But how? When it's that good, when Michael's talking like that, when it's that good of content, I mean, we could keep going, but there does reach a limit where you break them into, I guess we could always do something, break them into two parts or something like that. But yeah, I mean, that was awesome stuff. Norm Farrar: Yeah, and one thing I found out is that that product you're trying to sell on Amazon, those pavement tomatoes are not going to make it. Speaker 3: Yeah, I know. I thought I was differentiating enough, you know. It's a special kind of concrete that's made from a special sand. And so I just thought it would help, you know, but I guess, yeah, I'm going to have to rethink that. Norm Farrar: You got it straight, right from Michael. Okay. So that was fantastic. I really enjoyed it. Uh, he's a great guy. Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. It makes me want to go to a baby bathwater and hopefully we can get him to join us on the, uh, collective mind society trip. Norm Farrar: Yeah. Could you do me a favor? Speaker 3: What's that? Norm Farrar: Fix the frigging link. Speaker 3: Yeah, I just checked. I don't know what the heck happened there. I'm like baffled as to what happened there that, but I'm glad we caught that. I'm glad, uh, um, because we would have been wondering like, why does nobody want to come with us? Norm Farrar: He's self-conscious, you know? Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. Unknown Speaker: Okay. Norm Farrar: So that's it. I hope you enjoyed the podcast today and we will be bringing up a new podcast every Tuesday. So we will see you then. Speaker 3: Take care, everybody.