The Art of Branding: Design, Packaging and Strategy for Impactful Brands | Kitty Lai

Why Packaging Isn’t Just a Pretty Box the benefits of having proper branding and and packaging is is you know you want to build a loyalty and trust if you don't have that then you know you don't really have a brand you have to make sure that you know you do create that experience for for your customers you're watching for marketing misfits with Norm Farrar and Kevin K i don't know you know what time it is what time is it it's time for another episode of the Marketing Misfits podcast are you excited oh my yes I'm excited kevin you told me to be more exciting right okay i told you to jump you're supposed to jump that's the That's your That's your cue to jump up and down and go yay i am jumping i'm so excited have you ever I know what gets you Unboxing Branding: The Guitar Vodka Mystery excited is when you go into Well maybe not anymore because you don't drink anymore but back in the old days when you actually did drink when you would go into a liquor store they have liquor stores in Canada right or is it government controlled liquor stores government controlled yeah liquor so when you went into one of these government controlled liquor stores and you're like man I need a good vodka but you're like I want to try something different i don't want to do I don't want to do Absolute i don't want to do Titos i want to try something different and you're looking around and you see all these bottles and one of those bottles is is in the shape of a guitar and you're like "Ooh I wonder what this is." You have no idea how that thing tastes but it's a glass guitar and looks really cool and it's got a little label on the top that says like it look almost like a cigar label around the top and a little band and you're like "You know what i think I'm in the mood for this one today." Okay and you buy it you take it back and maybe it tastes good maybe it doesn't but why did you buy that why did you buy that actual bottle that looks like a guitar is that the packaging is that the What is that that actually made you stand stand out and you actually buy that and try some who knows good awful tequila or vodka but you bought it because of the of the way it looks of the starting letter is B brand of the brand but is it the brand or is it the packaging the Well it's a bit of both the packaging if I have no idea what if you didn't know the vodka what if you didn't know what this vodka you never heard of this vodka it was It's a It's a It was Tom's Farms vodka but the bottle was really really cool i'd buy it for the bottle especially if it was a gift right especially if you're giving it to like say hey where are we going for I'm I'm going down the road of how important packaging is and how important branding is when it comes to so we have both right I said packaging I said brand so I I got the question right you you get so you get a Scooby snack okay Steve Simson would say our buddy Steve you get you get a Scooby snack and you can have an ice cream after the end of this podcast yes we got someone today that's like a Designing for Legends: From High Street to Apple an expert when it comes to branding and packaging i mean she used to deal with all the what they call that in London high street what what's the what's it called the the high street where all the fashion stuff is uh where all the big stores are she used to do all high high street brands uh and one of the biggest brands in the world she did all their stuff and now she does a lot of consulting and she's got some interesting takes i think we've both had her on our individual podcast Lunch with Norm and uh AMM podcast but Yep it's going to be I'm excited uh because I love talking about this stuff as I know you do too all right well our guest today is Kitty Le here she comes hi guys hi just a sec just a sec i got to do something here hello Kitty they're my glasses yes london exactly yeah so I was and backstage I was jumping i was really excited to be on the show with you guys today so thank you so much for having me i What's the story with this glass and so Norm those of you that are listening Norm just put on some shades what's What's the uh what's the story with the shades Norm so they they are from a brand that I created um four years ago and these sunglasses um the brand's called Kit London um I actually don't sell it anymore um but the glass So you you have like limited edition glasses Norm and these glasses are sustainable they're made from um recycled um uh steel they're they're nonpetroleum so it's plant-based um acrylics that's in the glasses and everything is sustainably sourced and it's one of using one of the most sustainable factories in the world um to create these sunglasses and Norm has one pair of them woohoo how did you get a pair Norm i'm jealous now i don't have sustainable well somebody left them on oh I see you you're your kleptoite came out i see i I see what it is so these are these are glasses that you manufacture on your own brand uh kitty or these are something that you're We manufactured it was um sustainable clothing brand so we had um uh jewelry um we had uh shirts trousers apparel we had a lot of things a small range um and we just we got good designers amazing designers to design design it for us we got um Ted Baker factories to make it for us and actually one of our trousers were made from the leftovers of Prada material so we were using a lot of really nice you know sustainable fabrics and one of the worldass factories in the world um so yeah so it it was like a small little experiment but um yeah I it's not my my love for fashion so my my business partner that was his thing so but yeah I had a little experiment and it might continue at some point but I designed a lot a lot of the jewelry and we got silver smith to make all the jewelry as well out in Greece so it was yeah really fun to do all that but I got involved with all the packaging the marketing and then I got involved with logistics and the warehouse and everything else behind it and I thought there's too much i I need to go back to my passion which is design and packaging so and brand so yeah that's that's that happens a lot with with entrepreneurs they they have a passion for one thing and then they go and they try to spread themselves too thin into all these other things that they want to do or want to to achieve you talking about me Norm you talking about me uh okay let's say Kevin King is this is this a little Is this a little back back hands yeah yeah yeah we the person will remain nameless but no it happens when all of a sudden then you have to regroup and refocus and say I got to go back to what I'm passionate about so it sounds like that's what you did yeah absolutely i mean it was literally taking a lot of my time um with the Kit London brand but Kevin I do have a spare pair of glasses the ones with the wings right the cooler ones with the little wings that I get something different than Norm i'll have them branded with your name for for our smoking jackets our fedoras and the glasses now there we go we'll look like the Blues Brothers or next time we go to the Big Smoke you should have a brand of cigars actually well well well we we we did he keeps he keeps making fun of the cigars i made these really great cigars and he just keeps making fun of them so what what's how did you get into what's your were you always like a when you were a young girl were you the one that's sitting there drawing in CL in the back of class and coming up with ideas and designs and and uh were you that artistic creative person always or did this evolve over time it Well I I wanted to be a choreographer i wanted to be a dance choreographer but my dad said I wasn't very good at it that's great that's creative that's art but I was also good at art so I went into graphic design um my sister went into graphics first and she's amazing graphic designer um but I always collected um packaging bits so like perfume bottle um perfume bottles boxes bags so you go shopping with bags and I keep I just collect them like a hoarder and I just loved it and then when I as a little girl as a little girlish I guess in my teens early teens so I I my first job was when I was 15 years old and I was I went to a packaging factory when my mom was doing part-time work so I was on the conveyor belt i was getting motion sickness actually on these but I was packing for Estee Lauder Clinique and Aramus so it was all the makeup brands and I loved it and I was putting all the little little powders in i put the brushes in putting all the boxes together so you you everyone has a job so there's a line of people doing the jobs one just putting the brushes in that's all you do for 3 hours and then the sweets will come along and then you have a sweet but um yeah so sweets would come on the conveyor belt they would because you need a bit of sugar and for me for my first job ever I was getting motion sickness a lot of the time and my sister was working with me so she would take a lot of the the things that she was I was taking a lot of things off the conveyor belt cuz I couldn't keep up putting putting the boxes together and putting stickers on the little pencils and stuff but yeah it was it was something I loved and the best thing was the staff shop so with these Clinique lip pencils lipsticks makeup the the lotions they're like 50 p1 pound and you know that's that's not a lot of money but you know um so it was amazing so I used to I grew up with a lot of um brands makeup brands and stuff um when I was young so um yeah it was amazing so I stuck with it and I just loved designing so um I just thought well that's something I'm quite good at i have a really good eye i do love drawing i I loved creating things in 3D so I was quite tactile with my hands i'd make um cardboard things um cutouts and make origami kind of things as well with with paper um and I was doing that in university and I used to get quite high grades cuz I was like that's really good that packaging design you know um so it was just something I fell into i thought I was good at it so I just went into London after I graduated and it's I've been doing it for the last 25 years or more so yeah what are you most proud of what's what did you design that's like like your most proudest thing that you've designed like the a box or package or bottle or whatever what what is it that's you're like "Oh my god this is my this is my my Mona Lisa." Yeah i mean I'm a bit of a perfectionist and I've never liked anything I've done think it's great not that I don't like it it's that I'm always trying to do the next best thing i'm like "Oh that's that's good but I think I can do better i want to do another project i want to make make that better." So I'm always thinking I do do great projects but I don't see any single one that really stands out i guess if I think about it um when I was on work experience I went into a design agency so I was like 19 years old i went to design agency and they actually gave me a job i thought oh I'm just making teas here i'm just you know giving you know doing a little you running doing a runaround in in this design 8 London agency and they said actually there's this um project we'd like you to work on and I met with the the clients and they had these handprints they had these little handprints of this little girl um it was their daughter who had died from menitis and the brief was they're doing a a ball a ball to raise money for menitis and it's called Jessica Robin the Jessica Robin Ball and I had to create the the design for it the logo and I thought what am I going to do and it's like I was put on a lot of pressure as a 19-year-old never been to you know never been into an agency so I looked at it I thought what can I do okay all I have is these handprints from this girl that died and she was like 2 years old so I thought okay I'm going to use the handprints so I used I got an illustrator i worked with an illustrator and I said can you put her face the silhouette of her face in the handrint in a handprint so we created that in a gold foil foil block and then the I used a really lovely script font for for the logo and that was part of you know just the handprint and the logo underneath and that was put on the stationery the brochures the the compliment slips the packaging and t-shirts so for me that's a really lovely project to have been part of as well so you know it's just using my creativity and what can I do so and I didn't have a lot of time to do it either so I had like two days to come up with something and that was great and I love working under that pressure as well so I think that's where I think I love working on things that not sure what to do and that's that's where I work best when I don't know what I want to do you've ended up working for some huge brands do you want to uh explain who they are or tell us who they are yeah so a year into working for a London agency Lessons from Ted Baker, TK Maxx, and Cath Kidston and this job came up for Ted Baker so the Ted Baker brand is a retail brand back then it was just 198 1999 it was still quite a ladish brand actually so this is quite interesting because Ted Baker evolved their brand evolved quite a lot over the years i was there i was there for 10 years so it was a very ladish brand so it was very male orientated and then they launched a female the female taker woman they called it Tbecka woman and then they were trying to make it a lad kind of you know this is we're talking about late 90s go going into you know the the two you know 2000s and it wasn't the right message that women wanted to hear i mean as spice girls are around and everything but you know there was a lot of things weren't wrong with the brand because they they had then they had the kids so it's taker kids and then they had glasses taker sunglasses and they were calling taker a lot of things and and it was so many brands and I was creating invites for the wholesalers so I put all these about 10 different logos for sunglasses for kids for women and you know I said well we need to bring it back down to just Ted Baker London and that's you know after after a few years of that you know having a bit of a night crisis a branding crisis they decided actually let's just hone it back it's just Ted Baker London that's all we're going to do so and that's where it's it evolved and then the women's wear evolved nicely you know it really really sort of pitched to the target audience cuz they were actually not appealing to the target audience they wanted originally so it's really important to understand the target audience because at the time it was like we're just doing women's we're just going to do perfume we're going to do this and it's a brand that just exploded it went from when I was there from 50 employees in head office to about 250 by the time I left and it was still growing by the time I left it you know um it would have been like 500 plus,000 employees in head office so it's a brand that evolved and uh something I've been involved with opening stores globally as well so it was understanding the markets in America opening in Asia Australia in Europe and it was working with those teams as well so I'd worked with the marketing teams in all those different territories um and making sure that our tone and language fit the culture as well because some things didn't fit and so yeah so Ted Baker was quite uh extraordinary because I was dealing with the packaging the marketing the window campaigns um you know there's a lot of things involved with anything with the Ted Baker name on it during that period um would have to come through me every zip pull every button would come through me i had to sign it off thinking cuz I know things don't aren't consistent so I would make sure the team I was managing that if anything comes through from a supplier you have to check the logo is correct the font is correct because they do come out different and you know that we were very strict so as brand guard brand guardians we made sure that you know everything would come through our department i would sign it off and that was quite a sort of um important role so you know for me I I loved it and I loved employing the the young designers i would always employ someone that was better than me so I would make sure you know I'm a good designer but I want someone better than me you know um so yeah that was really good um by the time I left I had 10 designers under me and then I worked uh freelanced i was made redundant actually and then I freelanced for a while so I was working with um TK Maxx so in America you know it's TJ TJ Maxx yeah um so I I was brought in to work on their um exper the store experience so when you walk through the store what was the experience you'll get with the signage the the point of sale and I was creating an environment for them so I came up with a load of different concepts and then worked on other projects their their um Christmas campaigns in store as well so it's like swing tickets all their sort of um banners they will had in in store and then after a while um I was headunted to work for Cathkidston which was another major brand in the UK it's not renowned globally but it's very British um she did have a store in New York um and Japan love this the the the brand it's lot of polka dots a lot of florals a very English florals everywhere and you might have seen it um on the you know in on the high streets um but you know I rebranded everything for Cathkitston day one was going into the warehouse i wanted to see what was wrong in the warehouse so I went through every swing ticket every label everything i took photos of everything with my junior designer and it was inconsistent so I was like "No we can't have this is it was CFK Kidston Limited London CF Kidston London CF Kids CF Kids you know it was was not consistent again so that's what drives me crazy with a brand that's not consistent so then you know I worked with CF and we recreated her branding so the store the store branding I redrew actually her logo because um the original logo that she had she actually hand drew on her on her kitchen table and um it wasn't it was bit jaggedy cuz she had handd drawn it and it was quite funny because that year I went to a show in London and someone had brought up as a keynote on a presentation um calling it out saying this logo is like really badly drawn and you know we I'd redrawn it and stuff And I worked on all the packaging because they they wanted they needed someone for the packaging design side of things so I got to work with Apple actually i got meetings with Apple working with the Cathkon range we had um iPhone covers we had iPad covers and laptop cases and and stuff so I would design packaging that would have to fit in an Apple store so they they were quite strict in terms of their requirements so I would have to design it and follow their guidelines they are very specific and we had to use all their their um their logos and everything their tonality in there and then that would be approved by the team before it goes onto the shop floor they have to know the materials they need to know what it will look like so I had to visualize things um computer generate everything you know I'd visualize things this is how it's going to look with the the covers and the the the phone covers so yeah there was a lot of things so I I was there for six years and then I lost the love I lost the love for design um yes um because I was working spring From Amazon Seller to Branding Mentor summer autumn winter spring summer autumn winter i working on so many campaigns and it was by then it was about 16 years in and I had a little boy as well i thought actually I want to do something else um and I didn't know what I want to do i was made redundant actually again which I always see as a good thing um it's a new challenge um and so then someone mentioned that I should go on a to on an FBA Amazon course thought "Oh okay that's interesting." So I did this master class a whole weekend um to sell to to learn how to negotiate suppliers i know that from my job already i know how to sh you the shipping side i know the marketing i know how to So I knew everything so I loved it and the whole weekend I had my hand up asking questions i came to that that master class with loads of questions day three I lost my voice i couldn't ask anything more was was that when I met you in in London it was around that time yes yeah it was I remember uh meeting you i was doing a a workshop with Wilfford Lightheart and you introduced yourself i did yeah that was Yeah that was literally 6 months or just during that time and I met Kevin King at around that time as well i went to to one of his master classes yeah i I I my eyes just lit up because I thought "Oh great i can get I can learn how to build a business and a brand and start from scratch because that's something I've never wanted to do i've never wanted to be a director never wanted to own a business because the thought of it was just too scary and it is it is quite overwhelming as you know you just you're working in the corporate world and now you're coming out on your own but you know the course taught you how to do that and it wasn't so scary at the end of it and six months in when I joined their um mastermind six months in they made me a mentor so I was on the round tables mentoring people about branding and packaging and stuff because all I would do every every month I would go in and I'd just help everyone with their with their branding so they said we'll make you a mentor so I did that for 3 years and then I quit after uh during COVID actually so yeah um so that's my journey the starting so that I do understand the Amazon journey because I did start as a seller as well um not very good at it now are you sell are you selling now or are you just focusing on the uh the packaging the branding side of things yeah I I'm focused on the branding side of things the the brand I set up um for the Amazon was literally you know they sell it to you make money while you sleep you know I wanted something on the side it wasn't like a you know a full-time job for me but it it ended up like a full-time job but I'm not good at optimization i'm not good at PPC i don't like the back end so I thought well I just like the front end stuff that side of things yeah so yeah so that you know I sold my products and you know I didn't just I didn't like um uh uh put any more inventory into the business it's a great product it's great really lovely designed um yeah with uh e-commerce Branding Mistakes You Didn’t Know You’re Making sellers so Amazon Walmart uh Shopify sellers there's a lot of people who just throw something up or they don't put a lot of time into the uh brand or the packaging can you explain why that's got to change that mindset has got to change and what are some of the benefits that will come out of it if it does change yeah I mean I think that's the thing yeah the mindset has to change because it's not you know you you're running a business you're running a real brand and you need to feel see the growth of it you need to have a business plan in place and you know the benefits of having proper branding and and packaging is is you know you want to build a loyalty and trust if you don't have that then you know you don't really have a brand and it's you know it's it's the experience that you get from it because I you know I remember when I was young and when we were all young or or even now um when you see something and you know especially I'm just talking about when I was young but people would have these trainers for example and it's like well I want those because they've got them and you don't know why you want them you just think it's cool because they look cool and then you you have you want them as well so it's creating that brand why do you want it actually you don't know why you want it um you know it's cool because the name's cool um but until you get that and then you know the trainers I have and it's like well actually it's the feeling now is actually I do feel really good in these i've paid a little bit more money for this particular brand they look good and people are looking at me now and that you know that they want them but and it's it's all about that experience that you get from a brand and I think you know with Amazon sellers if you don't have that excitement or that buzz or that people that want your product you know you know you're not building a proper brand and it you know you have to make sure that you know you do create that experience for for your customers now a quick word from our sponsor Lavanta hey Kevin tell us a little bit about it that's right Amazon sellers do you want to skyrocket your sales and boost your organic rankings meet Levant Norman and I's secret weapon for driving highquality external traffic straight to our Amazon storefronts using affiliate marketing that's right it's achieved through direct partnerships with leading media outlets like CNN Wire Cutter and Buzzfeed just to name a few as well as top affiliates influencers bloggers and media buyers all in Lvant's marketplace which is home to over 5,000 different creators that you get to choose from so are you ready to elevate your business visit get.lovant.io/misfits that's get.lavanta lavanta l van n t a.io/misfits and book a call and you'll get up to 20% off Lavanta's gold plan today that's get.lovant.io/misfits isn't that Isn't it about a feeling isn't branding about a a feeling whether that's I'm buying a The Emotional Science of Packaging Louis Vuitton purse because that's a feeling it gives me or a status symbol or uh that I've made it or some sort of satisfaction there or if I'm buying a hammer and it comes in a you know it's a basic commodity and it just comes in a in a really cool looking like iPad looking box and you know I got to open it all up and and all that does is just confirms to me like oh yeah this is a must be a cool hammer even though I may throw the box away and it had no impact on me buying cuz I bought it on Amazon and I didn't even see the package but it comes then it's like it's a justification it's like a feeling so isn't branding and packaging um uh transcending that feeling yeah so I was thinking well we'll come back to that question but I was thinking when you were talking about the guitar and the vodka and that the feeling it's well it's the the drinking the feeling I get from the vodka it's like it makes you feel good it would t and it might necessarily not t you know taste very good but I think it is the feeling because you feel good now you've drunk the quadka but um answering your question Kevin I think definitely it is for some people it's about this perceived well the perception people get from you if you've got a a nice handbag if you've got a luxury handbag people think oh wow you know that looks really cool and I think it's I think it's a lot of times it is the feeling because you feel good because you've got this handbag and if some people will buy a fake handbag you don't get that same feeling you don't feel so special because you know you got it cheap and stuff it's a completely different feeling but I think when it comes to the the actual packaging and the the textures and things you can create emotions from pack just packaging itself sometimes for me it's about the smell oh this print t this this this print smells nice this box smells lovely or the texture of this this um this paper or this material is different it's like a really soft touch or the texture well the ripples on it and and I think I think people under underestimate how important it is with the packaging or the sense sensory side of things that you get from just opening a box just seeing it um I think it's really you know people do need to think about much more about what they're doing rather than just oh I'm just going to put a box i'm going to make it look pretty i'll design it well but you know is it going to give off that feeling you know in terms of you know like the unboxing experience will the customer feel special are they going to feel like "Oh actually I need to tell my neighbor i really need to tell someone that this this box I've just opened is is is amazing." So yeah it's absolutely about evoking those emotions when when it comes to packaging and the BR and you were just talking about the feel of a package and it's it's so critical because even if you take a matte packaging or a gloss packaging or a mixture of the two it gives you a completely different experience and I want you to get into that a little bit more for us mhm okay yeah so when it comes to um creating some feeling and emotions in packaging I think um I mean for me I'm a very tactile person and I think people don't understand like how sensory um emotions and things will work with packaging as well because it does evoke the emotions firstly but it also um your eyes will feast on packaging as well but tactile stuff is really important when you look at things that have a foil block that creates a really premium feeling for people on packaging um on for brands as well um but there's also other ways like if you use matte matte laminates um that can create a diff alternative type of um finish as well rather than gloss finish or the satin finishes as well and there's lots of things that people don't realize how how subtle it is i know Apple Apple packaging they use the matte laminates and that you know it just feels special it feels premium and I think um people really do um love to receive something special and if it's just a standard box it doesn't feel anything unique um so whether it's you've got hidden messages inside the box as well and that creates alternative feeling as well that feeling of surprise and I think you know it it really sets the mood in terms of you know what you're going to do with the product and and receiving that as well i think it's really important to understand the tone of of how you can create um sorry how you can create a tone with packaging as well so yeah I think it's definitely the first touch point that you need to think about when a customer receives the the product i think that goes right back to what Kevin was just talking about with uh in Japan that special feeling when everything is just wrapped in front of you and you feel special and that's if you get a high quality high perceived value product and it's got that extra little bit that touch that welcome message on the inside the unveiling of the product well it's it's a whole different experience which uh I look for i love that type of experience yeah and if people have the budget they should they can create clever mechanisms like different openings and the way you peel it open or you know it's just or even how the products actually sits in the box you know maybe it makes a sound when it comes out or a tab that you have to pull to get it out and it's all those little things that really create that specialness you know in in in packaging and I know it doesn't relate to all products but if you if you're trying to create that emotion and create that sort of um surprise um element for your for your customers I think you need to think about it much more because it will do more than you actually think and I know it it will only be a small budget but you know I think it it will create a lot of attention for your customers they might tell their neighbors and they they'll think "Oh gosh I really like this packaging." And often um people don't throw the packaging away cuz it's special and it's like "Oh I really like this." And you know I think it's really important to think about you know what what the customer are going customers are going through so yeah can you go overboard on that though cuz um when I got married uh we actually went over our our invitation was not just a here's a printed card in the mail like most people do um we actually spent about $40 per invitation to actually send them out and we actually had a custom box made with a custom branded logo on top like a our own emblem like our own logo with our letters intertwined with each other in a circle and we consistently carried that through the entire wedding to it was the logo on the dance floor it was the logo on the pillows it was a logo on everything at the wedding but in this package it was a big box uh you know like a rectangular box and when you It was black and it had gold lettering and stuff on it when you would open it inside was a was a shot glass with our logo on it uh also a the invitation was a scroll with a little tie around it like s you know all round up and you had to scroll it out and read it and there was a candle in there and then we put scent so that had the scent uh it's like one of those like love scents I forget what scent was but when you open it it just feels like like love and we had a lot of people loved that uh and then other people were like it almost made them feel not worthy they're like "This is such an expensive like package i'm can't afford to go to this wedding." So can you take pack can can packaging go too far as well it can go too far but I don't think it's the experience that you're trying to give to your guests as well and it also makes you good as well because that's what you really wanted and that's what you've created for your wedding and I think it's you're so excited about creating this thing that you want your guests to have it and I think they should be you know grateful to her obviously they are grateful to receive such a gorgeous gift i mean it sounds amazing um but yeah you you can you know I don't think it's anything over the top but as long as you think it's true to your brand if that's true to you and your wife at the time you know with that that that was what's worth you know you I think it's amazing that you created that brand for yourself um it's got the logos it's got that scent and stuff and that was that's you that's that's your character that's your personality that you've created for this brand so I think the people will take it away and think and they will always remember it and that's that's branding is when you remember something it's like I remember those candles and that that those you know these things that came the scroll and I think that's amazing because you're sort of giving an experience to your your guests as well and I think I love that sort of things i I handmade all my my wedding invites i put little gems and stuff and bows and yeah I loved it all so yeah so that kind of thing is is creating an experience and a memorable experience for people so I think it's important that's the key you just said it that's what I was trying is is experience so it's branding part of branding and experience and memorable memorable and experience so if and a lot of people like back to Norm's question earlier where he said a lot of these ecom and Amazon sellers don't pay attention to packaging they're part of their reality their rationalize it wasn't matter they're not buying it off a shelf i don't have to comp I don't have to compete against all these other things on a shelf in a in a retail store um they're just getting it off online all they care about is does the thing work and solve my problem they don't care if it's in a brown uh cheap box that stinks that came from China that's looks like it's recycled and about to fall apart um they they don't they're like "What do they care?" But they actually do that actually is important uh and and a lot of them times they're just looking at well that's that cost me 35 cents to put it in that box versus if I put it in a nice you know iPad type of box I it's going to cost me four bucks why should I why should I do that expense so why should Sometimes it's not even that Kevin sometimes it's just a couple of extra dollar or a couple extra cents not three or four dollars more and When to Rebrand: How to Know It’s Time one of the things I just want to point out here u Kevin also touched on another thing he he knew when it was time to rebrand so now when you go to his house instead of having the logo of him and his wife he's got a big freaking X going through and he and he sent that out to everybody he invited yeah yeah i have I have re I have rebranded that that that is true so why do why do speaking of that I mean that's a good point that normal why should someone rebrand why does Coca-Cola try to rebrand and then fails with New Coke why does Apple slight uh or you know someone slightly Burger King slightly changes their logo from a a burger inside Burger King to more of a straight thing why do why sometimes I know rebranding is because there's a problem and they need to change an image u but why do a lot of brands rebrand why rebrand i mean you you kind of touched on it earlier with with uh the the company but why re why rebrand i think a lot of companies that get it wrong in the first place they have to rebrand it's usually because it's outdated slightly outdated or something's not right it's not appealing to the target audience and also you might people rebrand because they they want to change the target audience it's not right for the brand and they're going to start looking at a completely different customer avatar they want to sort of pitch to but if you look at all the classic brands for example Coca-Cola and um I guess Sony and all the other brands that you know the big brands they don't actually do too much to rebrand they tweaked what about Jaguar what about Jaguar where they just came out and they came out they completely rebranded their logo the car colors everything it's like a radical actually pissed off a lot of people or you look at here in the States you look at Budweiser uh I think it was Bud yeah it's Bud Light budweight when when everything was wokeness was the hot thing they rebranded to wokeness and completely isolated their core group of uh country country boys uh you know they're sitting in the bar with a cowboy hat drinking the stuff they went from the number one seller to number four now and they can't they can't get it back so cuz I I think what what they you know a lot of brands that do that they think oh we someone at the top thinks oh we got to make a change we they think they think that their brand is like old-fashioned or they just need to change something and they go way too to one extreme for example Jaguar they literally isolated all the other the the the usual customers and they're pitching to someone completely new and I think they're going to have to move back to the old brand because it it was working there was nothing wrong with it it's just the product it's it's it's it's it's coming up with new product not new branding and I think sometimes that's where um brands and companies get confused it's like oh we need to rebrand because no one's buying but maybe it's the product maybe that's what's wrong with it what what is the experience that the customer are getting maybe that's the problem maybe it's the packaging you know maybe it's the message and it's like it's the marketing sometimes marketing can get it really wrong sometimes and that could really affect the whole brand but it doesn't mean you have to rebrand i mean a lot of people that have come to me I just say you just need a refresh you just need to tweak through things and you don't need to rebrand because rebrand means the whole thing you're looking at the whole identity you're looking at your target audience if you don't need to change it don't do anything um there are things to sort of um to do to a brand that you you don't have to go to one extreme and say rebrand so I always say refresh just a little refresh tweak it slightly um because you know I think just look at you you just have to look at what is wrong with um maybe possibly the product and I guess you have to sit down and be honest about yourself is it time to rebrand you know is it looking quite tired and at the time I designed it to look to be trend driven so then that means it's out of fashion and it's not in on trend anymore so there's a lot of ways where you know companies can look at what they need to do and I think they need to start with a brand audit and then see what actually is going wrong with the brand are you looking to quickly boost new Amazon product launches or scale up existing listings to reach first page positioning the influencer platform Stack Influence can help that's right stack Influence pushes high volume external traffic sales straight to Amazon listings using micro influencers that you only have to pay with your products they've helped upandcoming brands like Magic Spoon compete with Cheerios for top category positioning while also helping Fortune 500 brands like Unilver launch their new products right now is one of the best times to get started with Stack Influence you can sign up at stackinfluence.com or click the link in this video down in the description notes below and mention misfits that's misfitts to get 10% off your first campaign stackinfluence.com you you can see this when somebody does a really good job of that a lot of the times you don't even notice it and I'll give you an example olive Garden i didn't We don't have them up here but I was in the States i hadn't seen an Olive Garden for a while actually I think I was with you Kevin and we were driving past one and it was a subtle change and it was wow that they did a great job with that they just changed it to the times yeah amazing i mean I it just um just thought of something i had a um someone refer to me um a while back and they said "I need to rebrand i need to rebrand and I said "Well show me what you've got what is it?" And it was like a bread keeping bread fresh in a bag sort of thing and so he sent me all the graphics and all the visuals and things and I said and I looked at the listing I looked at the branding there's nothing wrong with it i said you know cuz I really need to rebrand i need to and I looked it up i thought "No you don't i think it's really well designed i can see a design a proper designer's designed it the colors work well it's you know you might need to just tweak a few things here and there but there was nothing I could I said "Well this is what you need to do i I can't really help you because there's nothing wrong with it." And so he went away thinking "Well that's refreshing." You know she's just turned away business but you know I I I thought "Well you don't need to do it you don't need to rebrand." And you know I think that's where people do need to sort of maybe consult with people with consult with branding experts and see what is wrong with your brand if I see something wrong I will tell you but there was nothing wrong with that one and I could have easily said "Yeah I can redesign it for you and you know take on their business." But that's not what I'm about you know so I I I I you know I I believe in you know integrity and honesty so you know I think they'll do well anyway with their business so brands don't always have to re rebrand um so yeah so if Norm wants let's pretend Norm doesn't know anything about marketing and he he decides he's a big cigar smoker and he wants to launch his own line of cigars and he comes to you he hears like this this lady Kitty's like really good at branding and logo and uh and packaging and he he he calls you up and says "Hey Kitty I'm launching a line of uh Norm cigars uh help me i don't know what to do." What are you going to ask him what do you need from him what are the fundamental things that you need so that you can start actually designing a brand and and packaging for Norm and you don't know nothing but he just wants to do cigars what would you what would you ask him how what would the interview just walk me down a few of the things that you would you would ask him so our listeners after smoking I don't I I don't know anything about cigars all that's that's why I'm bringing this up that's a perfect example I did go I did go to the cigar factory in Miami so I did have a little I was I was in awe of the packaging actually I love the labels I love the boxes so I would ask how many cigars are you packaging are they sing are they are you selling them as singles are you selling them in a pack is it going to be in a box um who is your target audience you know what range are you selling your cigars is it the lower range or is it premium end you know because then we're looking at really nicely designed box with a nice little clasp on possibly but you know I would ask them what's your budget what are there how many SKs are there are there a different range of um cigars i know I guess you get the I've been paying attention short ones thin ones bigger ones aged one aged ones mature ones um so yeah it's you know and and I would I generally send out a brand questionnaire actually to clients to to understand who is your target audience um what is your vision what is the mission of of of this whole brand what is it all about does it have a story behind it um what are you um and I actually have this personality um a brand personality slider so it's this it's set up with different things are you um a classic brand or are you a rebel brand are you a contemporary brand are you are you a funny brand are you quiet are you loud or quiet are you rebel are you um there's loads of things that you know they on the slider from one end to the other it's opposites and they will put an X on where where they think their brand is and that's really helpful when I create the brand um so you know I do ask for inspiration what what who do you think are your top three competitors then I can see actually you want to be in comp in competition or better than these these people um and I know that kind of market then I can see what kind of market you're appealing to as well cuz not often um the client might not know um so you know so I would ask them that but you you know your cigar um and then um yeah then I would go away and and dissect that and if you're after brand identity and and the whole thing like the mission the tone of voice I will dissect that for you i create the color palettes i will look at the fonts um I will make I will create a vision um a vision a mission a tagline if you need one and create the whole logo behind that and put it into a brand guideline document so then you have everything um but I present um all my findings first my research my initial um presentation before I put everything into brand guideline because it needs to work with what you're after um and then you know I'd go away and and design packaging as well so I'd come up with so many different like ideas things that I think would work i would look at um budget as well so I would look at bud budget packaging so what if Norm is going to design something just he just wants card i'm going to look at some card options and create some really create something really beautiful then I'm going to look at mid-range maybe he wants a little bit more you know maybe he wants it bespoke shape it might have a die cut or something in there then I might look at the premium end so I'm going to look at nice wood cast places with you know um maybe some embossing on the actual or branding on the actual um box so there's a loads of different avenues I go down and it's it's really understanding what the client's after and then I just present it and they say they love it and Norm says I'm going to create another range for you so CMS CMS cigars yes yeah how does AI play in or does it play any aspect in what you do sorry was that how does AI does AI play any aspect in what you do when in this whole process it it recently I've been trying out AI actually and I am not worried about it taking over my job actually I use it to create content actually mainly and some ideas for different contents I have asked it to try design certain things or come up with some color palettes and I've been testing it but it doesn't do what I want it to do I have to prompt and prompt and prompt but only because I know what I'm after so AI doesn't know even though I've told them so I've I've tested it with a some brands um that I've had brand questionnaires I will dissect it and say and prompt it exactly how I want it can you create the give me some the color palette for it um can you look at the fonts as well can you design me a logo and see what they come up with and it just it doesn't work um it's something I've seen maybe on Canva or something ai will pick up things that they've seen around on on wherever it's seen it um but I don't think it designs very well so I will look at it and think no and I've I've been trying it with color palettes it just doesn't get the color palettes right and I I Yeah so I don't think AI is quite there when it's creating a whole brand um for me anyway um cuz I'm quite particular as well and I'm I just I think let's use it as a tool see what it comes up with but no it's not it's not doing what I want maybe some things some colors might be right some fonts might be nice actually I've not heard of that font so I will have a look at that but um you know I do know my font so I you know I have a whole sort of I have whole folders of different types of font and they're all categorized in sans serif they're decorative they're script they're handwritten or they're hand script and and you know I have a whole library of things but when it comes to AI I think use it as a pinch of salt i mean for me as a designer anyway it can design but not that well um especially charts things aren't aligned things aren't the formatting is not quite right um so um I would fire AI if it was on my team Packaging for Different Audiences: Brand House vs House of Brands i had a just recently I had one of our friends uh just give me a second opinion on a a listing that I was looking at and why it wasn't selling why the conversion was so low and it had uh almost 1,500 reviews there were 4.8 very good 4.8,500 eight,500 reviews and it was just like I can't see I can't exactly see what's going on here so I called this person up and I said hey can you review the images with me and tell me why this is converting low and they came back and I needed this second opinion it said you're marketing to two audiences and I said your consistent he they said your consistency is off they don't know if it's for this market or for this market and I went "Holy crap that's right." So I hate to say this because it's we're this is of said too often but you got to know your audience who you're marketing to before you even can start thinking about the brand and the colors and the fonts and all of that but uh yeah as soon as that was picked out it was like it's so simple you know where it's is it professional or is it consumer and it was consumer-based ah yeah absolutely i mean I I I go a deep dive into the demographics the behaviors the needs the preferences that what their communication channels are and everything to do with the the target audience you have to go deep dive into um creating that that target audience because it's not just the top line how old are they where do they live and you know it's not that you've got to see what what they what their psychoraphics are you know um with the audience so how do you do this with with to Nor's point we had someone on the podcast about a month ago Mary Harkort and she had she invented this light this like arched light that actually she's she was an an eyelash technician you know eyelashes are very fine and kind of hard to see and all the lighting it was difficult to actually really see all the little fine fine lashes so she invented this this light that would arch over and would create mass really good even lighting across so you could see it she put this product out and it was to to eyelash people and to to people in salons and stuff and then she noticed started noticing a lot of tattoo people start buying this product which is a completely you know tattoo artist because they need the same thing they need to be able to see all the little fine lines and so she she's like okay so what she did is what every good marketer should do is to solve Norm's issue is she creates two separate landing pages one landing page is uh geared towards the tattoo people one landing page is geared towards the the buticians and stuff and which is fine and I think she even gave the product you know it's the exact same product but she changed the box a little bit one's the X27 for tattoo artists and one's the I'm making this up but the X10 for uh nail technicians but it's still the same brand name and still the same branding how do you come to Norm's point where you got two different audiences buying this how do you from a branding and packaging point of view what she did is great but how do you marry those together so you don't sway it too much the other way uh and you actually marry those two together into one cohesive unit so it's still the same brand across uh multiple two audiences yeah yeah two oh my goodness yeah that is quite tricky um and they're on the same website as well right yeah same website but different landing different landing pages oh different landing pages yeah I mean I think at the end of the day it's the brand as well but it is tricky when you you are pitching to two different audiences cuz then then it might affect the the the language and the message that you're trying to when you're talking to the customer because talking to a tattoo artist is different to talking to the beauty people but you can accomplish that on a landing page and you can accomplish with different wording but and you can change out the packaging a little bit to to talk to each audience but the overall brand name the overall logo is still the same so how do you marry those two i think at the end of the day it's that is like the brand the brand house so it's the umbrella of the of the other well is the same product but I think that shouldn't change anything too much i mean the brand itself I know it's pitching to two different audience but then there are brands that I have to use Ted Baker for example they have the kids and they have the the the women's range as well and it's still it's still Ted Baker so you're buying into that top brand you're not and then the products you can sort of fill in you know talking to different audiences because there will be different tones of voices anyway but overall the it's the main brand at the um at the top so I think it's I guess it's it's really sort of creating that messaging and I think it's that top line messaging that you need to get across to two and I think it's the personality of the brand and that's what will filter down to those two other um different landing pages it is it is about the top the top umbrella brand so So maybe in her case I'm I'm just I'm just hypothetically here in her case the brand the the top level brand um should not be tailored to either one of those markets it should be more maybe about the technology it's some sort of lighting technology and it's like we're the greatest latest coolest technology for lighting and then you and then you brand down or you branch down and then you split those off just like you said with Ted Baker kids Ted Baker women Ted Baker men so the top level brand has a connotation and an identity to it but the identity is not necessarily to that avatar it's one level up or or or something along those lines i think Yeah I mean I I would Yeah I would agree with you i mean you articulated that better than I did so yes I I've even seen it and I'm not sure if Mary's doing this but where you have a Shopify store and you have your catalog and then in within the catalog you can see tattoo or eyelash or and they have the usage uh usage the services laid out and then they press on whatever one and it'll go over to that page or you could just drive traffic over to another subdomain on the uh on that domain but I did this on Amazon just real quick norm I did this on Amazon when I was selling uh fitness products my brand name was you active sports yu active sports and so everything was going to be like for active sports everything I did under that was active sports then every single product I put out I also gave it a brand name i gave the product a actual brand name so it was the Abwell I had ab roller so it was the Abwell core shredder was the name of the product it wasn't just here's my ab roller under UC sports the active sports ab roller it wasn't that it was Uactive Sports top level and then brands underneath it and then if I came out with another I came out with a second ab roller for women which is easier for women on their backs and it was called the Abow Dragon uh and so each one had its own unique branding and name that's a way to actually accomplish that too yeah so that's like a house of brands so you you know you've got the branded house and then you got the house of brands so you know that's that's another way of doing it but you know you could easily kept the branded house and then get give them hero product names rather than rebranding brand giving a brand name to every single one but unless that product is very different but yeah what's up everybody your good old buddies Norm and Kevin here and I've got an Amazon creative team that I want to introduce you to that's right Kevin it's called the house of AMZ and it's the leading provider in combining marketing and branding with laser focus on Amazon hey Noran they do a lot of really cool stuff if you haven't seen what they do like full listing graphics premium A+ content storefront design branding photography renderings packaging design and a whole lot of other stuff that Amazon sellers need yeah and guess what they have 9 years active in this space so you can skip the guesswork trust the experts there's no fees there's no retainers you pay per project so if you want to take your product to the next level check out House ofamas AMZ that's houseofamz.com house of AMZ we're kind of doing that with Dragonfish Kevin a little bit yeah a little bit of dragonfish just just a touch just a touch it's a little selfish plug uh so I I was kind of curious about the mistakes Major Fails: Packaging and Brand Clarity so what are what are the major mistakes brands are making right now i think the the main mistakes is clarity they're not get they're not very clear with their message so I think it's really important to know what you're saying to the customer and actually being consistent because a lot of brands will have their listing up on Amazon and they'll have one look and and feel for that that um for that that uh the brand but then you you go onto their Shopify site and it's completely different or you go onto their social media and that's completely different and there's no consistency and some brands use different logos for different things and it's like well why have you got five different logos there's no consistency and the tone of voice is completely um it's not clear you know am I speaking to the right audience you know because I you know the customers will get confused and I think um I think that's what where brands get it wrong is is creating confusion for their customers they're not clear they're not actually targeting people properly in the way they talk and how they message what they're selling same question for packaging um for packaging I guess it's I think what people get wrong is that they they cram everything on the pack on the packaging uh they think "Oh more is is great you let's put the logo here and let's just put the product name there and put some more colors." And I think it's quite noisy um and people get lost in noise and if you're not clear about your message or creating some hierarchy on the packaging so for instance having your logo clear and then the product name and then what it does um on the packaging it will confuse the customer they would just think "Oh I don't I don't really understand what it does." Cuz it's it's about clarity again and and creating that hierarchy and making sure that the packaging does sell as well do do some of the selling i know people buy from the products off Amazon and they'll just look at the image as well but it's really understanding um also that how to use it how to use the product and being able to resonate um with the product and how you use it cuz I think a lot of brand owners don't have that in the listings they don't have a human using the product they don't have a human showing the size of the product like actually it fits your hand it doesn't you know it's not that big and you know I think a lot of things um there are mistakes that brand owners make so when it comes to packaging I think it's the noise make it less noisy um and then yeah I think packaging also plays a role in people selecting people when when people buy gifts especially the packaging is a statement of the gift as well so a lot of times people will choose a nicer packaging over something else if it's intended as a gift yeah i mean I do all the time i I love the packaging you know so when I go out shopping and I I buy I mean I buy off Amazon a lot and when the packaging is not great I get really disappointed it's like oh um but yeah it's it's it's trying to create that sort of um feeling of excitement and you know it's it's making sure you know that people can actually open the box as well and making it practical so it's not just the box and I know it's also depending on the type of product you sell but the packaging does really matter because when you get it even though it comes in an Amazon box you open it up you still have to open the box itself or the packaging of some sort um for the product but it has to create that excitement and I think people need to sort of think a little bit more about it and how can they create that memorable experience as well for for the customer because you know I I know not all products are exciting but you can still put a bit more thought to how you message it even if it is a brown a brown box have you been to Japan have you been to Japan i have yes so have you bought stuff in Japan in a store not not food stuff but actual items have you always noticed how everything is wrapped yeah yeah it's not just let me let me stick this in the bag and carry it out uh they actually take it they take wrapping paper like like they're giving you a gift or some sort of and they actually wrap it up and put a bow on it to give it to you and it's like Tiff's treats uh Norm when you're when you're in Austin you go into Tiff's treats these this is cookies that Norm likes that that I get when he comes to visit and they're like $2 a piece for these but they're really good cookies but you go in there they don't just stick them in one of these like uh plastic sleeves or something or a little baker's box they put them in a nice little box has a little sticker on top says tick streets and then they they they tie a bow on top of it like a a red a blue ribbon bow that's like in branding and a lot of times when I go in there I'm like just don't worry about the bow cuz that's something I just got to untie to get my cookie out so I can eat one in the car on the way home but they do that for packaging they do that in Japan too uh and it's always fascinating to me how much that actually and this this is something I'm buying for myself i'm not giving this as a gift to somebody and they do that and that's that's the like you said the experience it's Yeah sorry it's that extra value people think they're getting as well and yeah it reconfirms that you made a good choice yeah it makes you feel special when when people do do that i love it and you know it just it didn't take that much time you don't pay for it and it's it feels like you're gonna open it all over again even though it's just the cookie inside the boat but it's like you know it just feels a little bit like your birthday or something kev you got to stop wrapping those cigars though you know I'm just tired i just want to get to the cigar i don't want the ribbon just let me smoke the bloody thing and the next time you get your Coke Zero I'm going to give you one of these Coke Zero balls i'm going put in a nice box i put in one of those like Russian doll boxes where it just keeps getting smaller and smaller and you got to pick the thing out you're going to think I gave you a big poke and it's like a little tiny model on the bottom Inspiration and Where Big Brands Begin Their Search those nesting dolls what do you do for inspiration if I'm um if I'm a brand and I don't recommend trying to do this on your own if you have no graphic experience but what do you recommend for inspiration for brands and package owners where do they research yeah I mean I do a lot of research and I've been doing it today a lot um I use Pinterest a lot and I love it um I I well there's there's firstly Pinterest have Pinterest trends if you've not heard of that so you can create go on to there and look for for example um I'm looking for maybe I don't know some packaging for Christmas and then you might look for um um that they'll come up with some trends for you in terms of what Christmas packaging is and then it will throw you all these pins so it's like a um a mood board it will put a mood board together for you already and it's really great cuz then it will suggest other things that you might not have thought of like the materials or colors or something else or even logos that might go with your your packaging so you know that Pinterest you can go through a whole rabbit hole um on Pinterest in terms of looking for things and creating little mood boards so I have I have save I have a lot of saved boards in my Pinterest um and it's great because you see so many things for inspiration for logos for colors for packaging for materials even for design layouts um and you know I think people should go well brand owners should go on to Pinterest for for the to start with i mean I know some go on um uh on to Instagram there are there's another site called Design Inspiration um which I look at as well so that it it goes it's really quite designed for designers as well so I look at other alternatives but Pinterest is my go-to and I love it i I just I can just be there all day just liking this and liking that and you know it's lovely i like Etsy as well yeah Etsy is lovely for really nice they've got some really lovely hand handmade stuff and it's quite a big market now for people to like sell on there as well um and yeah I think Etsy's are quite good for packaging inspiration and some other things as well so but yeah but for me Pinterest is my go-to hey Kevin King and Norm Ferrar here if you've been enjoying this episode of Marketing Misfits thanks for listening this far continue listening we got some more valuable stuff coming up be sure to hit that subscribe button if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast player or if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify make sure you subscribe to our channel because you don't want to miss a single episode of The Marketing Misfits have you subscribed yet Norm well this is an old guy alert should I subscribe to my own podcast yeah but what if you forget to show up one time it's just me on here you're not going to know what I say i'll I'll buy you a beard and you can sit in my chair too we'll just You can go back and forth with one another yikes but that being said don't forget to subscribe share it oh and if you really like this content somewhere up there there's a banner click on it and you'll go to another episode of the Marketing Misfits make sure you don't miss a single episode because you don't want to be like Norm all right Kev any last questions all I know is uh when I was married every year at Christmas we'd have a couple Christmas trees around the house and since it was just me and my wife we need to make fill up these Christmas trees and we filled it up with packaging cuz she saved every Louis Vuitton box every Valentina box every Tiffany's box and with the ribbons and everything so our Christmas trees look like a retail storefront window for these brands so it' be a stacks of all these different boxes like nice luxury boxes under it so uh packaging matters that's all I got to say we we did the same but our Christmas tree had Dollar General discount store no frills i figured you just have FedEx boxes now no yeah that's right all right Kenny we're at the end of the podcast and at the end of every podcast we like to ask our misfits if they know a misfit yeah I would like I'm sticking with the ladies tonight um so I I'm going to recommend Gracie Ryback and she's an Amazon influencer and she does an amazing job on on Tik Tok and on Instagram as well so I really sort of think she could be a misfit on for your show oh very good i'll reach out to her okay and how do we get a hold of you yeah so um you can go to my website it was mebranddesign.com and you will find my details there so it's just kitty@mebranddesign.com but yeah if you go to the website you'll see everything there and you can contact me through that all right so Kev last word anything before I remove Kitty thanks thanks for coming on Kitty i appreciate you sharing your insights and uh knowledge this has been great oh thank you so much for having me it's been great to speak to you guys again so hopefully see you soon i I'll be waiting for my glasses yes I I will oh oops there we go i almost got it right all right Kev uh good always good stuff always like talking about branding packaging uh it's a it's a big thing that a lot of people overlook and you and I are both uh pretty big in on it and have a lot of experience in that so it's great to speak with someone that's uh loves to geek out on it as well yeah yeah and now you're going to have the matching uh sunglasses so you know all I need is a beard now and I'll be good well you can start growing it start growing the beard so that you know people start calling a zezy top exactly there we go all right yeah if you like this podcast be sure to forward it to somebody you know you could always share it if you like this you know someone that needs to hear about their branding or or get some inspiration on branding share this podcast with them check us out on YouTube you can uh see us on YouTube you can see us find us on Apple Podcast on Spotify wherever you listen to your podcast you can also go to marketingmisfits.co marketingmisfits.co and soon uh this summer we should have a newsletter that's coming out the marketing misfits newsletter as well that's going to have a lot of cool stuff so watch for an announcement of that cuz you're not going to want to miss that but we're back here every Tuesday with another episode of the Marketing Misfits sometimes it's just me and Norm but a lot of times we have an interesting guest like we had today with Kitty so hopefully we'll see you again here next Tuesday all right see everybody later ciao [Music]