The $9 Billion Secret Behind TikTok Shop

The infomercial industry, as you recall it, is still active in a $9 billion overnight industry. A lot of things are infomercials that you don't really realize are infomercials in short form. That's what you're seeing on TikTok is I'm going to do a quick demo on this brownie. How did that woman make that brownie? And there's some URL that leads someplace. That's an infomercial. They have the benefit of not having to buy commercial time. So if they can keep you watching for an hour, the psychology is you have psychologically invested so much time in it already, you might as well buy it. It's not that the industry went away. It's that the industry actually took over everything. I wrote this probably in 2011. I said, "We're about to move from a push model of advertising to a pull model." Cuz people will tell you they hate commercials and those same people will tune into the Super Bowl not for football. People love commercials when they're about them. >> What's the key when it comes to writing an infomercial? The process is >> you're watching marketing misfits with Norm Ferrar and Kevin K. >> Mr. Ferrar, what's happening, man? How's life in uh the great white north? >> Don't even ask. Anyway, we got through the snow. Now we're into the rain. Still can't get out there for a cigar. Well, well, you know, this would be perfect if this was the old days because if this was the old days, you could just turn on the TV and and uh and watch watch your what what's that show do you watch? Uh um >> 90Day Fiance. >> 90day Fiance. I was about to say something Housewives. I knew it. Okay. 90Day Fiance that you you watch like they have like 27 versions of but you know you could when those go off the air at like 10:00 you could be watching uh some some infomercials. how to uh slice your ham, how to grill your hamburgers, how to exercise your abs. Just do you remember those days when when you you'd turn off and like the next thing it' be either bars on the screen and say, "We're off the air. See you at 6:00 a.m." Or some ads would start showing up. Uh do you remember those days? >> Absolutely. >> Uh yeah, they they did. Uh we have electricity, too. >> Oh, okay. Good. >> And and indoor plumbing, but uh >> Wow. Whoa. Holy cow, y'all are moving up, man. >> We're pretty advanced. But yeah, I remember those day like it was yesterday. >> Well, it's it's funny to me because, you know, in the infomercial space, which that's what those are called. You don't that's that still exists, but not to the extent that it used to. Now, I remember watching those back when I was in my early 20s, like this like in the mid 80s, late ' 80s, early 90s, and that was when as boom, I was like, I want to do that. And I actually tried to do argon oil. uh we we went into that and start and and looked at importing argon oil and doing a whole thing before arganone oil became a big thing in the beauty space but we just couldn't figure out how to finance it properly >> because we couldn't get the supply uh that we thought we could sell on uh on infomercials but now today the new infomercial is Tik Tok shop or streaming TV you know doing ads and stuff and the targeting that you can do today is just crazy cuz back in the day if you run an infomercial in in De Mo Iowa at at 1000 p.m. you'd hope that you know a certain section of your audience would be watching it, but most of those people weren't. Well, with today's technology, everybody that you target, everybody that's in your audience, you can send it to them to actually target them much better. So, it's interesting. So, our guest today, that's what he the world he comes from. He's still doing it to this day, but it's it's evolved. And so I think it's going to be uh interesting and fascinating to see the psychology behind selling stuff uh on TV. >> Yeah. And let's bring him up now. >> Ron Lynch, come on up. >> Well, good afternoon, gentlemen. >> How you doing, Ron? >> Thanks for coming on. So, 200 million I mean, sorry. So, hundred million units and like $200 million in sales, something like that. That's what the George Foreman grill did. Yeah, that's probably right. You know, I'm scratching my head because that's 25 26 years ago. But yeah, that's some in that neighborhood. >> And you were behind that, right? >> I I worked for the agency that did that. They hired me. That's kind of was how the moment I got into infomercials. They were looking for space in retail grocery stores to do man on the street interviews. And so they I was a grocery store director, a retailer, and they rented space and I wanted to be in doing what they were doing. And so they ended up filming in my store, and I ended up writing a movie and selling it to George Foreman's agent. And they were like, "Hey, you write movies. Could you write an infomercial?" And I'm like, "Absolutely." And so that's kind of where it started for me was around that time. We I rolled right into OxyClean and Orange Glow and Miracle Blade knives and all kinds of all kinds of gadgets and products people have which eventually got us to GoPro cameras and Samsung robotics and so I've been around the I've been around the block >> just some small brands >> just just some So wait you said grocery store so let's let's back let's take a step back here. >> Sure. >> So you said that um how did you end up running or in the grocery business? How did how did walk us through that? It was my high school job. I was I was a, you know, grocery checker and I went to college and in college I was studying pre-law and I thought, "Oh, well, I'd like to maybe be a lawyer." So, I took an acting class. So, I was very nervous and presenting. And so, my day job was working in a grocery store and going to college and uh I happened to get uh an invite from a friend to audition for a movie that Robert Alman was directing and I got a role in a movie. So, I got a SAG card. And so, my from about the years of 19 years old to about 25 or 26, I'd work in the grocery store and then I'd go be in a movie now and again. And I learned how films were made. And I'd learned how grocery operations worked. And I had a choice at one point, right about the time I met my wife, to either go to Hollywood and become an actor or stay and become a ger. And I stayed in Seattle and I became a ger. I worked my way up inside that system through departments and managerial systems till eventually I was a CEO of a company and running grocery stores and departments and knowing how retail mechanics and supply chain and unions and all of those things worked there. >> Did I hear properly uh Jeff Bridges actually gave you advice on how to write? >> He he was the guy who made me write. I I was I was standing on set with him in a movie called American Heart. It also had Edward Furlong in it. And I was standing next to Jeff Bridges in the um train station in Seattle where we were filming. And I said, "How do I get to be in your shoes? I'm this, you know, no-name extra, you know, with a few lines in every movie. I'd like to be in your shoes." And he said, "Super easy. Do what me and my brother did. Make sure your dad is Lloyd Bridges." And so we laughed and he said, "No, right. If you start writing movies, if you start to to write content, um you'll always have a job. The writers are always working and the rest of us are always trying to get jobs. And so I started writing and I wrote two screenplays and in at the grocery store. I was a grocery checker and one of my customers was an on-air talent in Seattle on an afternoon talk show. And I stopped her and I said, "Hey, do you know anybody in Hollywood? I've written a couple movies." And she said, "Yes, I do." So I went to Kinko and printed my movies off and brought them in and kept them under my check stand. and she came in and she took them and it turns out she was Kathleen Kennedy's sister and I did not know that. And so about 3 weeks later I was on the phone with Kathleen Kennedy and Steven Spielberg and they said, "Hey, we read your stuff. You're you you got a gift for this. How do you do it?" I explained how I did it and they uh said, "Well, that's that's how it's done." And so they invited me to join something called the Chesterfield Film Academy that they sponsored where they sponsored young screenwriters to to write screenplays. And so that's kind of how I got onto the writing side. So I had this dual track of at night time I was writing movies and in the daytime I was operating a grocery store. >> So go ahead on on the the writing side. Did that did you just sell it or did it actually get made into an actual uh film? So the the neither of those two films uh got turned into anything, but subsequently I I saw an episode of HBO's Real Sex, and they highlighted these latex life-size heavy dolls that people were buying as intimate partners. >> Norm's got a few of them, so he he's >> Well, why not? Um and I thought, man, this has got to be an awkward purchase. Like, how what do you do when your mom comes over? What do you do with like so I I got this idea of a of a British sex comedy and um at the time Hugh Grant and Liz Hurley were a couple. So I wrote this film casting them in my mind and that's the film that George Foreman's agent Sam Pearl motor optioned and at the time he optioned it I was transferring from the grocery business into the infomercial business and as things go in Hollywood about it took about two years for him to pay attention to the script that he had optioned and he asked me to come back and finish the script because he was ready to make a movie and I was at that point I was making over a million dollars in the infomercial business and I was completely like I had no time whatsoever. And I said, "Good luck. I can't do it." And he he optioned it and it eventually got changed and made into a film called Lars and the Real Girl, which was Ryan Gosling's first big movie. >> I didn't get the writing credit for it. And that's how it works in Hollywood is you option something and they bring a in a WGA writer who rewrites it, which they did. They moved the plot from England to Iceland, I believe. And that's the way it went. But it did get made. >> So what happens with something like that? Do you get any royalties or anything? Because it was your script. I have no clue on this. >> No, the the WGA writer will get royalties on it. I got the option fee. So they paid they paid me and a friend of mine the option fee and then because we turned down the right to rewrite it and join the guild, then we relinquished our rights. So, but >> that's Hollywood for you. >> But it's also, you know, it's one of those things in life that it's it's okay to let go of the last thing because the next thing >> Yeah. >> Without that, I wouldn't have got to the next step. So, it served its purpose for me fully. Now, it sounded like within th those first I don't know how many years from going from the grocery store to uh writing off these movies, how long, first of all, how long ago uh how long did that take? And then secondly, what happened afterwards? Like I I know once I sell something, I kind of go into a valley like I it takes a bit of time to get going again. So how long did it take you to continue and continue to grow? >> Uh so the you know I I kind of define that period as from about 20 years old and in the middle of that was my marriage at I was 26 25 when I got married and then to the time I was 32 or 33. I was in the grocery business and had excelled. I I actually became the ger of the year in the Pacific Northwest about the year before I exited. So I was very active in my grocery career and I was writing films at night and I never felt a lull. Um um I've always got like right now I have 20 more movies that I have notes on that I haven't written and I've got 20 scripts that I have written sitting here in a pile. So I'm I'm productive. Um, but the pivot was really going from that grocery job to um being an executive director at a a company that did soft goods that did appliances and stuff. So, I went I went from ger to work at this agency writing infomercials and then within 18 months I was hired by a consumer goods company and they paid royalties. So it was this massive financial transformation of my life from you know making about a hundred grand a year to making much more than that in a period of only about 18 months. And that was a very dramatic um I'll say emotional shift. And of course an infomercial is a little bit like a film. You don't know how it does until six months after you've made it because there's all of this processing and editing and media time and testing and sometimes you're making an infomercial with a product that isn't even built. We call them protocraps. Six months later, the thing comes out of the factory and you have to reshoot certain elements of the show to actually sell the final version. So, that was a very common thing in my career. But that um I've never really had a a lull or um a a deep emotional valley. It hurts when the shows don't work. >> So my first four shows were over $100 million each in revenue. Obviously I got a royalty, so I got a very fra small fraction of that. But then my next four shows were zero. They all failed. And you spend four or five months on a show and it fails. and you do four or five in a row, you go, "Man, maybe this is over." And what that forced me to do is quit thinking I was the magic and realize it was the product that was a magic, the magic. And I'd been picking really poor products based upon my ego. Once I got away from that and I said, "Okay, does this product actually make the customer's life better in a profound way and got to be highly selective of what I chose to do creatives on, then it all kind of everything flowed from there. >> Hey, Norm, do you know any sellers out there that are just burned out doing this uh ecom game?" You know, I I know a lot of people that have talked to us, you know, when we go to events, and it's not only that, they don't know where to start. And >> who would you recommend they talk to? The >> first one that comes to mind is is Quiet Light Brokerage. And here's why. They're going to build you up. They're going to understand your company. And at the end of the day, you're going to know how to maximize your valuation. So, the very first thing you need to do is go and get your free confidential uh valuation at quietite.com. They're going to ask a couple questions. Uh you're going to meet up. It's one- on-one with uh somebody over there and then, you know, let the games begin. Awesome. What What was that website again? >> It's quiet.com. Awesome. I'm going to head over there. How many infomercials have you done? >> I honestly don't know. Um, I'm going to guess that the long form halfhour shows I'm probably around somewhere between 85 and 100. And for short form commercials, it's probably around 350 or 400. >> So, what's the key when it comes to writing an infomercial? I mean, what is the process like of sitting down with the client and actually creating that pitch? Because you have to entertain, you have to grab attention, you have to do a number of things. So what what what what's the process like uh when when sitting down to write a script versus compared to a movie or something like you were doing before to actually making that switch to actually now we got to entertain and sell at the same time. >> So um so there's you know there's layers to an infomercial which now in in today's media could be broken apart and called a media campaign or an online campaign. And if you took a 30 minute 28 30 minute commercial infomercial and cut it into all of its elements, you could feed that out online in all of the tiny little snippets and you'd have a constructive creative. But the the process is um what does the what is the magic of the product? So the first thing I do is create a creative and strategic brief. What's the what's the promise this product holds? What's the problem? What's the solution? What's the USP? What are all of the features? What are the benefits that is associated with each one of those features? So, there's an engineering conversation for the creative first. Then you back up and you go, okay, now if I look at the benefits, because I know people buy benefits, not features. What are three benefits that I can circle that I know one type of audience member would appreciate? And then what are three more than another audience member? So you back build from benefits that are clustered and then you go okay there's a customer that would want this that and the other thing and you start to build those I'll say demonstrations and with those testimonial stories. So then comes entertainment. So, I'll give you I'll just use the very first infomercial, full-length infomercial I ever wrote as that example. It's for a product called the Ultimate Chopper, which eventually turned into a um a product that you would know as a magic bullet. >> And it's food processor. >> And so I as a a ger and a cook, I went, what are things that this thing does? And that I would start with the food. What is the result? because I want the food and I have to have the device to get the result. So I'm like, "Oh, guacamole and salsa. Everybody eats guacamole and salsa. It's a very easy thing to do. We normally buy it. We don't make it. Now it's, hey, you could do this yourself and I could do a demo of guacamole and salsa side by side with two machines. It's very, very simple. Go. What's something else that somebody makes that's chopped up? An omelette. So now we're going to go from there to omelette. Oh, so we start to go into into the food categories of common things. Oh, I just need to grate cheese. I just want to chop an onion. And I'm doing this from memory right now, but that's actually probably the flow of the show that was in the Ultimate Chopper and in the Magic Bullet for years is what are these common foods that people would want? Then we go, "Oh, how tough is it?" Now, let's get to a a toughness demonstration. And we're going to grind concrete and glass and bricks with this thing to show how tough the engine is and how sharp the blade and the blade doesn't dull. So it's there's a there's a process to it and the process is benefit with wonder something something that is pinged by desire then promise of proof. I can't destroy it. It will be tough. It's a good quality thing. Then I want to hear some consumers that agree with my story. And if I build the testimonials correctly, it'll feel like five people are telling Little Red Riding Hood and they all only have to tell a snippet of the story. And as a viewer, I perceive they all had the exact same experience. So Little Red Riding Hood had her cape and she went she was going to go see her grandmother. Then the next person comes in. So she grabbed her basket and she headed off into the woods. and then the woods were dark and the house and the wolf and you see five people can tell that story if you do that sequentially they don't have to all tell the whole story but you know they all experienced the same experience and so these were very simple techniques and then in my second infomercial Billy Mays was had become a friend of mine and he helped me do some demonstration some crazy demonstration work in a show that really taught me if you're going to do a demonstration, make it over the top and outlandish cuz that's good TV. So long form is third just to explain to the audience long form is typically 30 minutes and then short form is typically like 2 minutes or 60 seconds, 90 seconds, something like that. So in long form usually the pattern was like one of these pain points solution things. Then the pitch, a minute or two of the pitch, get your credit card out, call this 800 number, buy now. And then you continue on and show another problem solution type of situation. Then it's the pitch and then another problem solution. That's kind of like the the pattern so that you're hoping someone's flipping on, they come on at the right time or they they stay and you're just trying to catch them and not bore them and get them to stay there longer because the longer they stay, the more likely they are to buy. >> Yeah. So, your first 90 seconds to two minutes of this show is called the open or the tease. And I'm going to show you what I'm going to show you. It's like the lawyer coming out and saying, "Hey, in this trial, you're about to find this out. You got this problem. We got a solution. Just stay tuned and you're going to see all this crazy stuff. You're going to hear from people, experts, and people." Okay, so that's your open. Then you have about six minutes of host, co-host introducing the problem, the solution, doing a couple demonstrations. Then you have about 90 seconds of testimonials and then you go to your first commercial and about 7 8 minutes and that's a threeinut commercial that retells that story and presents an offer and the bonuses. Now these TV shows aren't scheduled. So people are coming across them as they're changing cha channels. They get bored from something they're watching and the commercial break they find you. So now you get to to act two and you kind of start over, but you drill deeper into questions that you know that you created in the original sevenminute pitch that people are going to have and now you dig into the second layer of objections with more demos, more explanation, more proof. It's just it's a legal case. Now you get to 21 minutes, you run that same commercial again with the CTA. You come out of there at about 25 minutes usually. Now you only have three and a half minutes left because the shows are 28 minutes and 30 seconds long. So you do some kind of really radical demonstration typically at the end like the thing that they waited the whole thing for that we're going to we're going to have six acrobats climb up on our step ladder and paint the ceiling and have a bear climb up the ladder and you know whatever. and we did stuff like that. And then the host wraps it up and says, you know, by now we've we've told you everything we can tell you. And then you run a little 30 second commercial with your what is now your URL. Back in those days, it was just a 1-800 number and you wrap that up. But it's the it is the cadence of every this this originated with the fair pitch and the people that were successful on TV were we'd go find them at the fair. They're all fair pitchmen. That's where Billy Mays came from. Boardwalk and Atlantic City Boardwalk and the whole you out out at the county fairs on the weekends. >> Yep. I we used to fly the world for him. Go to the ideal home show in London. Go to go to Kansas and um that we would find we would find these talent there and we're like that person would be great on TV. And so how does that evolve now to the digital age where there's still infomercials that run in some of that form, but you don't people don't watch that or see that as much. It's now more it's the Tik Tok people, it's the Instagram people, it's the creators, influencers doing a version of that. Um, how have you seen that evolve and change or and what are some of the differences that you see that you got to do now that you didn't do back then or vice versa or is it just all the same psychology? It's just a different different medium. >> Well, two things to address there. One is the the infomercial industry as you recall it is still active in a 9 billion overnight industry. that's still going on. >> The products are typically more expensive. They're selling cruises. They're selling >> um but they're selling health and diet and cooking that they're if you turn on your TV at 3 in the morning, you're still going to see infomercials and there's a lot of them. Then the short form, the one minute to two minute, a lot of things are infomercials that you don't really realize are infomercials in short form. And I'll give you an example. For years, e-harmony introduced themselves with an ad campaign and well, you had to go on e-harmony.com to sign up to get to do your date and they there were these short testimonial segments of people that were meeting and at the end there's a 1-800 number or a website and you go there. Um, anything that ends with go to our URL right now is and there's a lot of stuff on TV. If you watch Fox News, their commercial breaks are loaded with short form infomercials for health products, for supplements, for doctor's cure and this and that that are targeted at that senior audience that watches Fox News. So that's a tremendous business still in multi-billion dollar business. Then online, essentially, if you took a 30 minute infomercial and cut it down to its components, that's what you're seeing on TikTok is I'm going to do a quick demo on this brownie. You're like, how did that woman make that brownie and there's some URL that leads someplace um there'll be a doctor giving a snippet about psychology or health. You click on that and you end up in a VSSL, a video sales letter. We've all I think clicked on that thing on the web and like this person is talking and I'm feel like I'm watching a movie and the thing will never end. That's an infomercial and they know that they have the benefit of not having to buy commercial time. So if they can keep you watching for an hour and often these things do and don't tell you at the end what till what it costs. The psychology is you have psychologically invested so much time in it already you might as well buy it. And that really is the mechanism that causes a lot of purchases on that. So it's it's not that the industry went away, it's that the industry actually took over everything and we don't recognize it because it's just endemic to our culture. I see this on Tik Tok now. Exactly what you're talking about. The whole transformation going over there. Tik Tok lives. If you want to do your own live uh uh long form or just continuing, they could do it 24/7 if they wanted. but some very successful creators and brands that are just doing that right now. And uh yeah, they're they're in control of their own destiny. And the other thing that I noticed with the really good uh infomercials is that yes, there's the entertainment value, but also there's that perception, very high perception of what you're getting and there's a specific price point. Now, is there a lot of research that goes into those price points? because those are the ones that you know oh like I'm looking at it going oh yeah I I want to buy that and my wife is saying no you don't but uh like $29.99 or $29.99 times two payments or how do those prices come around? Is it a focus group? No, it's actually online testing and and media testing online. Like when when I do a television program, I might run 14 versions to finally settle on the most um utilitarian price that that is most efficient for the show. But I'll give you the basic psychology of it. People think in incremental pieces of revenue and the pieces are are $20 because that's what comes out of the cash machine. Then they think in $100 bills. So, for instance, you just said, "Hey, it's $29.95." I'm going to say, "Norm, we got to test that at 39 cuz you just left 10 bucks on the table." Because they're think they think in $20 bills. And 29 is actually a really weird increment that does work sometimes, but you even you turned it into a multiple of three of 29, which immediately goes to $100 in their mind, right? >> You naturally did that without even thinking about it. You kind of exposed that psychology. So for years the number was 1995, $39.95, $59.95, and $99.95. >> That's interesting. I never even thought of it in that that that way of the $20 coming out of the ATM. Um that that's that. Um, one of the things too you said I think when one time when uh we met you you told me something about what you're doing with YouTube with the now the targeting that you can do versus the the the Fox News is more of a spray and prey. I mean, yeah, there's a demographic and stuff there that they're they're looking for. But you you said that now with the like YouTube TV, not YouTube the YouTube channel, but actual the cable version of YouTube, YouTube TV, you're doing some amazing targeting and amazing stuff for helping brands like sell there. And I think a lot of people just aren't aware of that. And it's not just YouTube TV. It's Hulu has it now and Amazon Prime is doing it and it's >> all I can >> I think a lot of people don't realize the power of what that can do and how you can test and how you can iterate and can you talk walk us down that a little bit and explain uh some of the opportunities there. >> Sure. I mean and the fundamental thing that's this the just the e walk into that is YouTube is a now a product of Google. So it's tied to Google Analytics. So YouTube television is the fastest growing cable access network in North America. More people are turning to YouTube television where they would have gone to uh Time Warner Cable or Roadrunner or these other cable services of the past. Now more people are every day and YouTube is very YouTube television is very accessible via things like Starlink. So you get people in remote areas. So it's you you start to think about the distribution network nature of the network. It's a distribution network. So I go into that distribution network and now they have access to the search criteria and the IP addresses of their customer base because when I turn on YouTube TV, it goes to my account. When my wife turns it on, she turns it on for her account. So they know who's turned on, who they're talking to. Now, as an advertiser, I can say, I want 60if 55 to 65 year old women that are in menopause that are feeling like they're 15 pounds overweight. And my wife sees that commercial. I don't see that commercial. I see a commercial that's targeted at 55 to 65 year old men that um would work. And that same exact same moment, she could be watching TV in the bedroom and I could be watching it in the living room and we're going to get different creatives for different products because our IP addresses have been targeted. And so that's highly efficient media purchasing paired with creatives and what we're moving to because of the way that we embibe material particularly with our phones. Um, and by the way, that that Google sensitivity will know if the person has a second device in their hand, whether it's their iPod or their phone or iPad or phone. So, they're the the intelligence of the system is allowing me as an advertiser to pinpoint the person and sometimes the offer. So, let's just say we had a kid and the and they know that I have a kid in the house and the kid is between 14 and 18 years old. I might see a proactive skin care commercial or my wife might see one, but it won't target her. It'll be a commercial about boys with acne and an offer that's $14.95. Instead of the $59 offer, they would show her as a 55-year-old woman in menopause. same product, just different pricing, different >> the offers change, the creatives changed based upon what the intelligence they have about the consumer in the house. >> So they know back up on that just to double down. You said they know that if it's based on your login. So if your wife logs in as her, they everything's targeted as her. Um and they know that there's a phone, she has a phone in her hand or there's a phone nearby, maybe it's her son's phone. So then the targeting even gets more granular based on that. >> Absolutely. Google has that much data on you. So that and that's also you could look at it the other way. I mean it sounds kind of nefarious but from their side their argument would be we're custom making advertising for stuff that you actually need and want. you're not seeing all the stuff you don't want. >> Which is true >> that and I think I wrote this probably in 2011 where I said we're we're about to move from a push model of advertising to a pull model because people will tell you they hate commercials and those same people will tune into the Super Bowl not for football. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> People love commercials when they're about them. So that's what the system is slowly turning into is a poll system where by our contribution to the system, we're giving them enough information and data that we're custoing is actually being customized for us as are the offers. >> I think it's Gary B that says you're you are the algorithm. There is no algorithm. There is no Tik Tok algorithm. There is no Facebook algorithm. The algorithm is you. It's your it I mean you know from what you've clicked on what comes up next. I mean you hear people say every day my wife and I were talking about beats and we've have never had a conversation in my life about beats and suddenly there's four recipes for beats in my Facebook feed. Yeah. You have you have granted them access to listen to you to look to you to follow you to track you in everything you do. I have a friend in the intelligence community and he's like, "We love it when people buy Teslas because the minute a person buys a Tesla, the NSA has a cameras in that vehicle. They have access to them. They know everybody's phone connects to the Tesla. So, they know who the passengers are. They can take photog and you don't realize they can read your emails because you don't realize through the terms of service of Tesla you've agreed to allow your phone to connect thus your emails to be read and they don't need a search warrant. That's how weird our world has gotten that we are actually giving permission to these corporations. We're we're relinquishing our freedom in the guise of consumerism and wanting things customized for us. Comfort for knowledge. >> Yeah, I think it was you told me once that I think it was planet I can never say the word right. Planeter plan they have palunteer. That's the right. Thank you. They have act uh when when that health uh executive got murdered on the streets of New York. Um, and within I think you said within minutes or something, um, Palunteer had like something like 86% or 90% of all the security cameras in that area, they were able to tie into it and actually pinpoint what happened. And, you know, they can't just come out and publicly say, "We got you." But they go through the process of illusion and whatever they got to do to say, "We know who the guy is." It's that there's no no such thing as privacy anymore and especially in the United States. I mean, Europe's trying to do some stuff, but still there's no such thing as private. >> It's done. It's >> done. We have way We have way passed over that line. And it's just like to your point, it's only being revealed. It was Yeah. within 3 hours of that murderer, 30,000 cameras within a six block radius had captured six images of the asalent. And they were putting them on TV already. Here's here he is at the at the bike stand. Here he is at the coffee shop. Here he is at the it's Manhattan >> and they they use facial recognition tooop boop and broadcast it and that's how he was caught is and the reason that they had to go about it that way and and this relates also to the kid that shot Charlie Kirk and how they eventually caught him. they hadn't been on airplanes in a while that the pre for the previous two years when you went through TSA in the United States everybody's face was scanned or they had a real ID and so there's a 3D rendering of you in in Palunteer system and an IDMIA systemia holds the ID piece of it and Palanteer owns the access and intelligence piece and they work together and you the the real risk I'll say from a sovereignty perspective or a thought crime perspective and Palanteer uses that phrase by the way um that we're getting to thought crime is you there's predictive analysis on your behavior and there's absolute forensics on everything that you do digitally meaning if I suspect you've done something Kevin I can go look and find out whether I can prosecute you and once Once I know that I have the evidence, then I can come and run a traditional investigation that looks very above board and know exactly where to collect the evidence with a warrant that matches the evidence that I actually already have in my hand. And now I can convict you. And that we're getting to that sort of level of I'll say intelligence and security that is problematic. Are you looking to quickly boost new Amazon product launches or scale up existing listings to reach first page positioning? The influencer platform Stack Influence can help. That's right. Stack Influence pushes high volume external traffic sales straight to Amazon listings using micro influencers that you only have to pay with your products. They've helped upandcoming brands like Magic Spoon compete with Cheerios for top category positioning while also helping Fortune 500 brands like Unilver launch their new products. Right now is one of the best times to get started with Stack Influence. You can sign up at stackinfluence.com or click the link in this video down in the description notes below and mention Misfits. It's m i sf ts to get 10% off your first campaign. stackinfluence.com. So how do marketers deal with that? Like Ring just had this issue. I think it's a Ring doorbell on the Super Bowl where they had they did a big Super You're talking about the Super Bowl and people watching for their entertainment. People love this one commercial of like uh oh your dog is lost in the neighborhood. Um, you know, Ring, we have this new thing called whatever find puppy or whatever it was called. Uh, well, we can, uh, we can use the cameras to actually find where your dog is and bring the dog back home. And people are like, that's all cool. That's cool. That's neat. And then all of a sudden, people are like, wait a second. If they can find my dog, what else can they find? Um, and so it's how do you market around this technology as a misfit or whatever? How do you how do you use this to your advantage? management. Norm and I are doing it with intent based emails right now where we know we capture someone within a few few hours uh or 70% of them a few hours of them typing something into Google. Um we know they're looking for shampoo for hair loss and we can target an ad straight to them uh without them ever opting in. But how do you actually marketers take advantage of this and ride that line between freaking people out and getting people upset that they they have given up their privacy? Well, you've just described it is I do it exactly the same way you do it. Google is the one that's invading their privacy. I'm just giving Google the criteria. So, I know what I want in a customer and I just inform analytics. This is what I'm looking for and they go find it on my behalf and it becomes, you know, I'll say relatively efficient. But you have to remember whether it's Facebook or Google or Amazon, their job in a revenue perspective is to take as much revenue from the advertiser as they possibly can. So even when you guys feel like you're doing an efficient job, you're still paying them and you're paying them on a pain threshold. When you stop paying them, then then that's when they they hit a metric like this guy won't pay me anymore. He's only going to pay me $8 a lead and I want a nine. And you won't do it. You have a se years ago, Facebook had a a a piece of their business that was so smart and it came out right about a after Cambridge Analytica and Robert Mercer. I don't know if you're familiar with Robert Mercer and Cambridge Analytica and they really funded >> they really funded Donald Trump's first presidential victory and were the intelligence behind that. Um but we were working with I was kind of had my fingers in Cambridge Analytica at that time um as an advertiser and the the discovery of these guys utilizing they initially used these Facebook tools of which take our survey and find which out find out which Lord of the Rings character you are or find out which Sex in the City girl you are. People would love to jump into these quizzes for their own identity and at the end of the quiz we'd say, "We're about to tell you. Can we just post it right on Facebook or should we be just privately send you the information and you just let us look what your your likes are?" Well, people are like, "Well, I don't want to be a weird Lord of the Rings character, so let's do this privately and you can look at my likes. I don't because they don't know the value of that." Well, the minute they get your likes, they know exactly everything that they need to know to market to you. So, this Facebook watched this and went, "Oh, this is this is actually brilliant." So, internally, they created what's called the Facebook auction, and you just went in and said, "I want I'll pay you $9 for a customer." What their algorithm was figuring out was as they gave you that $9 customer, they would dwindle your customer. And you'd go, "Well, okay, I'll take one for 10. I'll take one for 20, and I'll take one for 22." And they figured out what everybody's cost of goods were, and they're allowable for advertising for every single product on the planet. So that their AI now knows what everything costs to make, ship, and sell. Now they take that data and tell me what you have seen in the last eight years in Facebook advertising. price, >> but the products have too. >> Yeah, >> it's more expensive product. It's cruises. It's boats. It's cars. It's not the $5 widget. It's not the fidget spinner. Those guys are gone. They don't have access to the audience anymore. It's the products got more expensive with more margin and more available advertising dollars. And bigger advertisers jumped in. Now you get Fortune 500 companies are now advertising on Facebook. And what happened to Facebook's ad ad revenue? It doubled in the last two years. >> Mhm. >> You know, take a look at uh these Ring cameras we were just talking about. And the information, the computers, like I think the average car has 40 computers, so they can track wherever you want to go. And then you take a look at uh genealogy uh the uh DNA, get your ancestry, ancestry.com or whatever it's called. You're volunteering all this information. They're collecting all this information and it's just fairly brilliant marketers that are figuring it out. You know, let's gamify something to get your information, get that profile, make it bigger and bigger and bigger and uh dig down. But like that's pretty scary and especially now with the information uh with uh DNA uh DNA profiles, you know, they can just take that information >> and all those guys too with all your health stuff. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. So you know you think it's a product, they think it's research. >> Exactly. >> It is research. >> Yeah. >> That's Pokemon Go is my favorite example of that. >> Oh, that's an awesome story. You want to tell that story or? >> Yeah, go ahead. >> No, go No, go ahead. Uh, Ryan, >> so when Google Earth started, they had to they they had this great idea for a product at Google of we'll map the world. And they went to the government. They said, "Well, you've got the satellites. We don't have any satellites. Could we get pictures of the Earth?" And they're like, "Yeah." And they signed a contract. And money exchanged hands. And here we are with Google Earth. And they put these cars on the street. The cars are taking pictures of stuff. Well, there's places these cars won't go. There's buildings, there's parks, there's alleyways, there's there's places those cars won't go. And so, Ninek is this company that had done some business with them before and they're part owned by the NSA and they they have a guy who's a game designer there and they go, "What can you do?" And he goes, "Oh, this is this would be great. We're going to make a peekaboo game with Pikachu. We're going to take Pokémon Go characters and we're going to hide them in the places we don't have pictures and we'll give people points to go take pictures of those places and they'll think they're playing a game and we will map the buildings, the hallways, the alleyways, the parks. We'll get we'll get every place and that is exactly what they did. So, it's an intelligence program masked as a game and you're and they've got a contract with the NSA. Do you think the NSA is going to say no to that? they so now the government's got a stronger foothold and I would say now this is complete conjecture on my part but I think it's probably fairly accurate you never hear of Larry or Sergey in the news and never have of all these tech billionaires the guys who started Google you never hear about those guys and I'm pretty sure the deal was we'll give you all the money in the world stay at a newspaper don't ever we don't ever want you arrested talking to anybody we don't want you interviewed we don't just stay build the program and then get get the hell out of the way. And I'm pretty sure that's what's gone on because Google is the most invasive intelligence apparatus that the planet's ever seen and it's presented as a product. With all of this going on, Ron, how do they build the trust so that people will just give their information? Uh, you know, Pikachu is a game. They think it's a game, but again, it's just gathering information. But how do you do that? How do you build trust so people will willingly give over information? You don't have to build trust because people naturally have it. You have to not violate trust without them knowing it. If you offer me something, the snake didn't tell Eve what knowledge would reveal to her. He told her what the apple tasted like. So temptation was there. Shiny object was there. flavor was there. That's marketing. You don't you you don't you know, look at what's going on with our food food supply in the United States right now in food products. We're suddenly waking up going, "Do you know half the stuff we're eating is poisonous?" >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Why? Because we made it shiny and sweet and we we took we took chemicals and packaged them as sin and we gobble them up and now we're like, "Oh, wait, wait a minute. We got ADD and cancer and we got stuff that human beings have never had before. Yep. Cuz it's a we what we like promises. We like to believe. We like to trust. We want to be, you know, and marketing is telling us we're going to be smarter, greater, faster, sexier, taller, blah blah blah. All the things that if I can tell, if I can just hint at your lack, you know, Norm, you could have hair like mine. >> Damn. How how much? >> 1999. Three things in 1999. >> You see how fast that happens in our mind that your action was hope. >> Yeah. Please. >> You didn't you didn't you didn't say, "Oh, you're lying. You went maybe." >> I want that to be true. That's that is that right there is humanity. >> I'm going to run an I'm going to run an infomercial for trips to Turkey. uh since uh high ticket is working on on infomercial. So so Ron what I mean part of the part of all this now is you got to get attention. Uh and attention is like the new currency. Uh it used to be like followers and everybody's like I got a million followers and now it doesn't really matter if you have a million followers. Someone with five followers can out uh get a video that has more views than you. what what is it about getting attention and how does that play into actually storytelling that's one of the best ways to actually get attention can you tell us a little bit about your process on that >> yeah so the I think the first thing to understand that has changed over the last 50 years is the average person consumes far more much more media and has for a period of years When the three of us were kids, there were three TV networks and maybe one Wild West network in our town. So, one ran reruns and the other were ABC, NBC, and CBS. And then that turned into 30 stations and that turned into 40 400 stations. And now we have the internet where people think they have web pages that are really actually television stations without FCC licensing. So, you could have a website and you could run video content all day long and night just like CNN does if you chose to. So the viewer has a TV in their living room, a computer on their desk and a phone in their hand constantly. They are constantly taking in media. So now you have to be differential. And there's places attention means I am super familiar with that or I've never seen that before. I like that or what the hell is that? Those are kind of my two avenues to trigger the first reaction of attention. Thus you explains a lot of the hypersexualization of media and music and the shock and horror in the other half of media. Um and then we have things that stand out that are I'll say remarkable. I I'll use a weird person as as a there was a gal on uh I think America's Got Talent or Britain's Got Talent. Susan Bole. Yeah, Susan. >> Remember Susan, right? Susan walked out and she looked like somebody's grandmother's nurse. I mean, she was wearing a sackcloth dress and she looked like she got thrown out of the royal family for being ugly, which is hard to do. And she walked out there and this swan voice comes out of this woman and it was just unbel you got you you can't believe this. That's what that's now there's what is the recipe? Well, there's 150 recipes for that. But that's what you're trying to give is that kind of shock and wonder to people. And which is why a a fair portion of our musical talent now is coming out of these talent shows is the record. Those come out of record producers going we give up. We can't architect and shove. It's too expensive to shove a talent into the media channel because there's too much distribution. We can't manufacture a star. We'll start with a distribution channel and let the audience pick the star out of awe and wonder. Then we'll give them a contract. Mhm. >> And so there's a lot of things that I think are reverse engineered that way. For GoPro, the way that we got GoPro from $600,000 in volume to $600 million in volume was not in running $50 million a year of television. We didn't we our budgets were like uh maybe five or six million a year. Where the real tool came in was we had a CTA that was every day we give away one of these cameras. So that got everybody to the website. Then they realized, well, everybody's gonna sign up for this thing, so I'm not going to win it, so I might as well buy one. But then we gave them available music to use in their videos and the handles for the commercials, the opening to the commercial and the closing to the commercial that they could download and make their own commercials. And we arbitrageed the burgeoning growth of Facebook and YouTube and said, "Go make your own commercials." And so suddenly there were a million people making skiing and motorcycle and waterboarding videos advertising the product on our behalf with their own vanity. >> That's brilliant with such a great idea. >> That's really it was really good. >> Yeah. And so that that's that's where that's where the billion dollar growths come from is how do you enroll the audience to not just lower your CPO, you know, your your cost per acquisition or your cost per order, but to eliminate it? How do I get it to zero? How do I get my product in the hands of people who will advertise it on my behalf because they're so thrilled with the results or the experience they're having or the notoriety of it? And that's where verality comes in. >> And then then the the Chinese come in and take Go Pro from a a crazy valuation to next to nothing now. Uh and they're they're struggling uh because of all the Chinese competitors. But no, but that's that's still a great uh that's that's an awesome strategy uh to use and that's that's thinking outside the box. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's I and I think it's the the the main thing that I try to adopt and I this goes all the way back to the grocery store in the very first demo is I'm the customer. What do I want? Oh, I want some guaca guacamole and some salsa. Is how simple can I get it down to? What is the benefit? What is the thing they really want? They don't want a food processor on their counter. They want guacamole. They they want something that tastes great that they can get credit for. You made this. your family's going to go nuts is always the ultimate cell of the food processor or the the cooking device in an infomercial. It's not even the food. It's the reaction. People are going to love you for this. People are going to love me for what? I don't care what it is. I'm buying it. I need people to love me. I have a great shortage of that in my life. What about a failure? Have you had a big failure on I mean you you you named a whole bunch of big GoPro and George Foreman grill and uh all these but is there a story of something that's just crashed and burned? >> So many. So I'll pick one but I was telling Norm earlier I had four successes in a row that were over hund00 million a year as shows when I first started my career at infomercials and the next four were goose eggs. And it takes you four or five months to make a show. So I'm in a, you know, I'm in a position of I'm I'm I've got 500 $400 million a year of stuff coming in from these products and I'm the golden boy and then the next four duds and it's like is my career over? So um I've had that experience many times. Typically it's from picking something that the audience doesn't want or me ex exuding my will upon them. Now, I found a a cooking product in Europe that I loved and Tfall made it and they wouldn't do a license with us. So, our company built their own version of it and it was a multi- cooker that was like a square crockot, but the temperatures were super variable. So, you could do sousvid in it or you could fry French fries in it and every like it was zero to 550° like you could do anything. And I thought this is going to kill it. Crickets. We could not figure out how to sell that thing. And I think ultimately the problem was that it did too much. It solved so many problems that we couldn't express that properly um in something that was foreign to the consumer's mind is I'm going to make stew in something and then I'm going to make French fries in it. What? And then I can I can bake a pie in it without a pie plate and then like you were doing things that you could you can make chocolate fondue in it. You could do like it could do all these weird things, but it just didn't it I don't think it landed because it didn't do enough. We missold it. We probably should have gone, we're going to replace your crockpot and give it two or three things outside of the co crock-pot range and then when they got the thing, show them it did hundred other things. But we we we're too far over our skis. You know, I it's interesting that you say that because one of our I I don't think you'll mind me talking about this, Kev. One of our biggest flops together, we do we have some very successful webinars and you just know it. You know, people are selling out in five minutes. We did one a few months back and it completely flopped. And why, Kevin? Why did it flop? >> Too many choices. Too many too too many choices. Too many too many moving. Too many parts. And didn't narrow. We didn't focus in on this is the one thing. And maybe you could have a second one. Oh, you don't want that? Okay. This one. Not you don't want this one. Here's eight others for you. >> Yeah. >> Uh right. And it it it shifted the focus and we didn't drive them to the right thing and the right messaging. We're trying to do too much uh and and too too little of a time. is when he and I analyzed it afterwards, we're like, "All right, it's not that the product sucks. It's not that people don't want this. It's like we didn't we didn't do it justice and pushing the right angle and the right one thing. What's the one thing that's going to change your life or that benefit you, not here's some a bunch of them, then just pick one." Uh, it was it was Yeah, that's so true. >> Yeah. And I would say that the the internet allows for you to sell that type of thing, but you have to do it peacemeal. What's the audience that wants that benefit and that thing and do a a presentation for that and then parse out another one? It does this. And then they later find out, oh, the thing that I have that does this also does that. That's neat. But you're right, it gets too diffuse. Choice causes confusion. And confusion creates nos. >> Hey, Kevin King and Norm Ferrar here. If you've been enjoying this episode of Marketing Misfits, thanks for listening this far. Continue listening. We got some more valuable stuff coming up. Be sure to hit that subscribe button if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast player. Or if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify, make sure you subscribe to our channel because you don't want to miss a single episode of The Marketing Misfits. Have you subscribed yet, Norm? >> Well, this is an old guy alert. Should I subscribe to my own podcast? >> Yeah, but what if you forget to show up one time? It's just me on here. You're not going to know what I say. >> I'll I'll buy you a beard and you can sit in my chair, too. We'll just You can go back and forth with one another. Yikes. But that being said, don't forget to subscribe, share it. Oh, and if you really like this content, somewhere up there there's a banner. Click on it and you'll go to another episode of the marketing misfits. >> Make sure you don't miss a single episode because you don't want to be like Norm. >> Yeah, we're doing we just I just had a call this morning with I don't know if you know who Jason Flatlin is. >> Sure. >> Uh he's he's doing a pitch for me at at for us uh at an event next week. And there's four partners in this pitch. So there's four components of this pitch. There's an AI component, a email component, a tools component, and a marketplace component. And he one of the things that Jason like this is going to be a little bit of a challenge because there's these four parts. Usually it's I'm I'm promoting one of these parts. So, we got to change the packaging and the messaging, the approach, and I think he's going to pull it off. He's got some really cool ideas on how to integrate them all together. But you get it makes it much more challenging. And then we had a whole bunch of other bonuses that we were going to add in. We stripped them all out. Oh, not all >> probably wise. We stripped out like a whole bunch of the bonuses and we're cutting it down to its core and I think it's going to be fine, but um it's a challenge. And Jason even admits that that hey, this is this is not >> I know nothing about this. Like I don't know what the thing is you're even talking about. So you can take this I'm going to give you unsolicited advice and you can throw it in the garbage. But here's what I normally when I when a client approaches me and says what you just said to me. I go hold on a second. When I put these four things together, do they get a transformation? >> That's what we're doing. Yeah. It's a non >> self transformation. >> That's exactly what we're doing. It's the whole the whole thing is the the well, not the whole thing, but one of the main pitches is like, I'm not here to 2x your business. Uh I'm here to 10x your business. It's easier to 10x your business than 2x your business if you have the right tools and the right systems. And this is what it is, and you're going to get left behind. Uh and you're and it's a whole it's brilliant what he's doing. Uh, so he's still working through it, but the way he's packaging, doing, this is the system and these are the parts that you need. Uh, and I think, yeah, I'm I'm I'm way more excited about it than I I was nervous about how this is going to convert and how this is going to do. But now after having this two-hour talk this morning, I'm like, all right. And it clear clarified some stuff for him >> because he's a master at pitching and a master coming up with this stuff. And I'm like, I'm ready to buy now with some of the stuff he's working on. So, um, but it's a challenge though because of what we're doing. Uh, but >> and I always I always move that positioning to from I'm not I am not here to 2x your business and I'm not here to 10x your business. I want to know why you're here. Because if you're here to 2x or 10x your business, I have the thing that will allow you to do do that if you implement what I'm about to tell you. >> Love it. >> That's what that's what he's doing at the beginning. It's like he's going to people raise their hand or something or whatever he's going to do like who's here to 2x their business. Okay. You could, he's not going to say this, but basically you can leave the room. Um >> Yeah. >> You want people to to embibe that they're doing it's them. You're giving them power for transformation. >> Yep. >> Um >> because you want them to do it and you because you want the testimonials. >> Yeah. >> And it's tough and it's tough. We're selling something that's so new because a lot of this has AI components that there's not a ton of testimonials yet um because it's so new. So that adds a challenge to it as well. But I think I think we got it. And but it's going to be it's going to be exciting just to watch the pitch. Even if you are not in the market for it, just to watch this pitch and the structure of it is it's going to be cool. And we I have three or four people I've told he's pitching like I want to be in that room. I don't want to ne I don't know want to buy what you have. Um but I want to see him pitch. I said well maybe you'll want to buy what we have after you see him pitch. >> It's not the worst. It's not the worst way to invite somebody is hey I want you to come to listen to this thing just so you learn what this guy's doing. Yeah, exactly. >> Well, we are at the top of the hour >> and uh Kevin, do you have any other questions for Ron? >> Uh, no. I think uh I think this is this has been great. There's been a lot of good uh good advice and good information here. So, Ron, I really appreciate you coming on and sharing this. >> I really appreciate you guys taking the time and inviting me. You're smart dudes and I it it's nice to talk to smart people, people that are smarter than me and you we both are. So, I appreciate that. >> I I don't know about that. Yeah, >> maybe older, Kevin. Maybe older, but not I don't know about smart, >> but if if people want to reach out to you like the at the uh Big Baby Agency or follow you or something, what's the best way for them to do that if they want you class or a course that you do or something? Uh >> yeah, I have a number of courses. In fact, if you go to stage22, the word stage number22productions.com, you can see my body of work, you can see books that we do, and you can see the four courses that we teach on film making, on marketing, on uh we have an MBA for for business owners, a number of different courses that are are useful to people. And >> is that movie uh still up? >> The movie still up. Trust it's up at trustmemov.org. And that is kind of a look into some of the earlier things that we were talking about Palunteer and the capturing of the United States debt and how we're planning on as a country to move into fully digitized currency and the impact that that could have on you. >> I think and I was telling Kevin, I wasn't just saying it Ron, but this was an eyeopener. Anybody that I sent this link to, they came back and they just said, "Wow, this is incredible." So yeah, I I would definitely go and check out that movie. But now the most important thing, at the end of every podcast, we ask our misfit if they know a misfit. >> I do. I have a good friend. I don't know if you know him or not. You may. JP Newman. Do you know JP >> from the cigars? >> No. No. JC Newman. >> JC JP Newman. JP Newman is um he he's built his um wealth with a group of other guys in the real estate space in capturing rentals and they do a lot of good work in uh helping people uh that are financially strapped. But he's now that he's kind of in this position, he's brought his career out to to really help folks and use his intelligence network to take what they've learned in business and help other folks. And the thing I like about it is it's an it's a discipline. It's disciplines that I don't really have a lot of familiarity with, although our ven diagrams overlap a little bit. and uh we ski together and vacation together. Part of part-wise is do you ever have those friends that are smart in another field and it's just nice to actually spend your free time tinkering with your own brain into the other places with someone who I would say is a master in their space. >> He's one of those people. Um, and he runs a a podcast called The Fulfillionaire, which the implicit nature there of how do you become fulfilled once you've got money there. You know, there's more to life than money and how to be fulfilled along your path. So, I think JP Newman would be a great person for you guys to talk to. >> Oh, that's fantastic. Well, we'll follow up with you on that. And Ron, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast today. You were awesome. >> Thank you. You guys have a great day. Appreciate it. >> All right. >> Wow. A couple nuggets out of that one. >> No, just uh just I only wrote down one note. Did How many did you write down? Did you No, I'm just kid. I'm just kidding. No, that was uh that was awesome. Uh really good stuff from a really good uh a smart guy. I remember when Ron he came to one of my events called Market Masters that I do and they um and I invited him out and he came and sat on a couple of the panels and he I think he came up to me and said, "Why why am I here? feel like uh you know I don't know anything. I was like no dude uh you're probably the smartest guy in the room. Uh you just don't know anything about this one thing uh necessarily, but the value that you added and some of the advice that he gave uh was life-changing for the people in a couple of the panels that he he he did. So hopefully those of you listening to this show got some uh some really strong and good advice that maybe will be life-changing for you as well. But norm, if they want more life-changing information, how do they do that? >> Wow. For life, let me see. Oh, I got it. They can go over to YouTube, check out our uh channel at market uh marketing misfits podcast. Or if you want the three uh minute or less clips, it's marketing misfits clips. And those are all the nuggets. And I'm sure we'll have a ton of nuggets uh coming out of uh this podcast today. We also have our Tik Tok channel which is marketingmisfits and you can always check out our website marketingmisfits.co. >> What if I don't have time to watch an hour video? What do I do? >> That's a very good question, Kevin. One of the things that I would say you might want to do is uh sign up to our newsletter. >> What's that address? >> It's I think it's misfits.news. >> Yeah, it's misfit. It's misfits.news. you're just going to say yes, sign up. It's misfits.news. >> Yeah, it's it's misfits.news. Uh we just came out with it in March. Uh so on when you're listening to this, you're you get in on the ground floor. Uh but we take uh we take the podcast and we actually put into a written form and we add a little bit of extra uh uh information from Norm and I uh and some cool stuff even on cigars uh in there. So check out it's totally free. Comes out every Wednesday. It's at misfits.news. news. Other than that, I guess uh we'll be back again next week with another episode next Tuesday. Right, Norm? >> That's right. All right, everybody. >> Thanks for coming out. We'll see you later. >> Take care.