Seller Sessions Special Episode: Conversion Optimization Mastery with Andri Sadlak

Seller Sessions Special Episode: Conversion Optimization Mastery with Andri Sadlak Speaker 2: You have to be consistent not only with the basics but also with staying on top of things and trying new things and experimenting, being willing to be that pioneer in the space in your specific niche. If you can master both Amazon algorithm, converting on Amazon better and bringing traffic from outside, you're unstoppable. Speaker 1: All right. Welcome to Seller Sessions and I'm really pumped about this one as I am for most, but this one especially because I've got my boy Andri here. Who I've known for frankly a number of different years. He actually lived in Vancouver for a long time, exited an Amazon business around the same kind of time that I did. We kind of knew each other from afar, kind of chatted and met up when I was in Vancouver a couple years ago. But he's since gone on to do some really cool things. He's been one of the key folks at an Amazon aggregator based out of London. He's also built one of, I think, one of the most cutting-edge softwares and service tools available to Amazon sellers around conversion optimization called ProductPinion. And he's just a genuinely good human being. So I wanted to bring him on, kind of talk shop, see what he's been up to. We just met up in London at Seller Sessions Live. He and his partner Matt had an amazing presentation. We're going to dive into all that, man, and you're a kind-hearted guy. You like to help sellers, and you're really on the cutting edge of a lot of cool things that are happening in this space. We're going to digest all that knowledge, hear more about what you're up to, and dive into it. So, Andri, man, it's so awesome. I know you've been on Seller Sessions before, but it's great to have you on here with me for the first time, man, so welcome. Speaker 2: Absolutely. Pleasure being here, Adam. Appreciate you inviting me for the show. Speaker 1: Yeah. So you've been in London for how long now, living in London? A couple of years or like a year and a half? Speaker 2: A year and a half-ish. Speaker 1: A year and a half? Yeah. Cool. So you like to choose cities with shitty winter weather that it rains and it's cloudy a lot. So from Vancouver to London, let's maybe start with that. What's the experience been like in London in your first year-ish? Speaker 2: It's been good. Yeah, London is a fun city. If you like big cities, I can at least say from my experience, it's my favorite big city. But you're right. The weather is very similar to Vancouver. The major difference is different accent, different nature around. I definitely miss the mountains and the ocean, but London has its own perks for sure. Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed. Honestly, it's one of my favorite cities in the world. It's kind of like New York with less chaos. It's like Europe light, like it's got European elements, but it's not like you're in a totally different world, different language, whatever else. Transportation system is awesome. People are nice. So I certainly have to get there. So we actually just reconvened. We went to a football game there on Sunday. Less than a week ago, we kind of caught up when you're in London. Obviously, you're a core element of the Seller Sessions Live. Let's start off with that, man. So I've been to four Seller Sessions now, and this last one was the first one I wasn't speaking at, which was actually tremendous. It was nice not having to prep. Yeah, it was nice not having to prep and just kind of sit back as an observer, which was really cool. But I know you've been to a couple as well. Let's maybe just kind of digest on Seller Sessions Live. What was your take on the event and your experience there? Speaker 2: 100% and I definitely know what you mean by not having the stress of speaking in Seller Sessions because Danny is quite a demanding organizer. Yeah, that's been good. It's like obviously people who've been there can tell you it's a new format compared to what it used to be before. And the new format specifically this year has been essentially a workshop. So the whole day was essentially a live workshop where people were sitting at the tables with their laptops open, following the steps and actually doing some work that would apply to their brands. So the goal was we want people to leave and have immediate value they can apply to their businesses and a list of SOPs. So the whole thing they've heard Digest into SOPs so either them or their team members can just follow the steps. That was the whole idea. Make it as practical as possible. Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny. Adam, you were on the other end. Tell me, how did it go? Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny. Danny told me about it way early on. Like, hey, I'm thinking about a new format change, whatever. This was six months ago. He's thinking about this stuff way, way in advance. And I was like, oh, cool. I like the concept. And then as it started kind of getting closer, I still wasn't exactly sure what he meant. Like, you know, I mean, like there's the traditional, you know, I've been to whatever 12 plus Amazon events. It's usually a bunch of really good speakers, frankly, sometimes more sponsored based, like people that do sponsors will do presentations. So you're kind of like, hey, there's good, good presentations. And there's the sponsor ones, which you kind of just don't listen to. That's the typical format. And I generally come out of an Amazon event with A handful of nuggets, I would say, like things are like, hey, that was interesting. I'm going to implement it. A bunch of, like, pictures on my phones of slides that I end up never looking at again. But to me, it's much more about, like, the people and the connections. That's been most of the enjoyment and benefit for me. And Seller Sessions always had a really good format with getting speakers that you don't hear of often. So I think Danny's really good at kind of spotting talent as it's coming up. And so you get to hear perspectives that you might not have otherwise heard. So I like that. But this one, I was frankly just like, OK, once you do this workshop, can laptops open? Really kind of sinking all the presentations into like it's basically like different chapters of a book, but it's all part of the same narrative. Whereas other events I've been to including Seller Sessions, it's much more like different books like Presenter A is going to do book one, Presenter B might be doing something different. So it's much more, it was much more structured. But in the lead up to it, I'm like, my frank opinion was, it sounds cool on paper. I know Danny can probably pull this off, but I'm like, either this is going to be a fucking disaster, option one, or it's going to be really, really fucking cool. I honestly didn't know. I was thinking it was going to be really cool because I would never bet against Danny, but there's an equal chance or a similar chance that it could have been a fucking disaster, right? Long story long, so whatever it was, it was really fucking cool. He lulled it off. I think what was the most interesting for me was it's topics that are really happening now. A lot of the stuff that you hear about, whether it's AI, back in Amazon, conversion optimization, so stuff that's happening now really relevant that even I don't have a ton of knowledge on or maybe just a surface level knowledge. I think the level of SOPs and details, like again, most of the time you've got photos of slides on your phone. This was actually like literally what I've been doing this week since I got back is going through it again. And it's all mapped out. Like I don't have to chase it down. It's all synced up. So I think it's formulated in a very thoughtful narrative and then it's got the step-by-step SOPs. What I also really liked about it and your presentation was one of these, but many of them were like this, which is real world examples. Like this isn't theory. This is examples, case studies of what's actually happened. So for all those reasons, man, Danny pulled it off. You know, he continues to one-up himself and do a great job, but I love them in previous years. It was always one of my most favorite events, but I would say in terms of business value, so it always had really good relationship value, good presentations. He kept the flop out so sponsors didn't really kind of flop up the presentations that always existed. I think what was different now is it was a very structured like tons of value packed in like on the business side and then networking all the other things, the party, the fun connections. That was the same as before. So I really enjoyed it, man. That was kind of my take on it. Speaker 2: Now saying on the other end and obviously hearing a lot of feedback from people who participated, it was the same. People like, yeah, there were no star speakers. Like obviously I'm not a star. Nobody knew about me or anybody else really. It wasn't really a star speaker, but more like what you said up and coming. But everybody appreciated the practical value. Everybody appreciated having the SOPs they could follow as they follow the workshop. So it's all in the same screen, all following the agenda, easy to stay up to date of what the conversation's about, and easy to apply both during the workshop and after. A couple of people messaged me like, hey, where's the link for the SOPs? Because I need my team to jump on this. So the people actually use this. It's not just ideas, you know. Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think you bring up a good point about the up-and-comers. If I'm being honest about mine, I probably presented, like I said, 10 to 14 times. I can't remember exactly how many it is now. I'm not keeping track. But I would say my best presentations were my first three. And that's because I was hungrier. I was, frankly, even more nervous. So I was like, well, I really want to bring my... I spent a lot more time on it. I was a lot more thoughtful about it. And as you kind of start to get in the presentation 6, 7, 8 and I on 10, it's kind of like, ah, you know, it's human nature. So I think that's a big part of it, too. So, all right, man. Well, that's a perfect backdrop. So I think what we want to do here for like, I would say, call it 20 to 25 minutes is really kind of get the cliffs notes. Like what are some of the key things that A, you're seeing in the space because you're not only I'm involved with seven, eight figure brands and have been a seller, exited businesses. You're building tools from a seller perspective. You speak with a crap ton of sellers, agencies, big sellers. You kind of see tip of the spear stuff on what's happening in the space. So I want to kind of start by what you're seeing with now is a future of Amazon. And then there's a very specific SOP that you guys have been working to really optimize listings, optimize conversion rates, optimize images, which again, I think that That's where the value is. The sellers that can bring that nuance to the table, I think those are the ones that are winning. Most people know how to make good products. Most people understand Amazon. Most people understand keywords, like all the stuff that you maybe had an advantage on three, four or five years ago. It's diminishing now. I think the people that are on the cutting edge are the ones that are really figuring out conversion optimization and I think that you guys are some of the best in the business. So let's start off with the future of Amazon, man. What are you kind of seeing both with your direct experience in Amazon accounts and as a seller as well as in the broader kind of work that you're doing with product opinion? Speaker 2: Absolutely, and a great gateway into the future of Amazon could be what we both experienced in the past. When I started researching 2016, finally launched 2017, it was so much more straightforward and I'd say Almost anyone could pull it off. Unless you really mess it up and product just doesn't work, obviously it wouldn't work. But as long as you don't do anything crazy, negative, it's gonna work out eventually. Now, the game has changed a lot. A lot more institutional investors are in the game. A lot more big brands are in the game. So you can't just do the exact same playbook as before. And before, almost anything you flip on Amazon, you could easily sell. Nothing too complicated. Now, what really drives the game, in my opinion, is can you do the basics consistently? Can you do all the normal stuff that we know about very, very consistently? Check all the boxes. Can you also out-convert consistently? It's not just a one-time thing, right? Because if you crack the code for, say, your title, main image, your offer, and now you're winning, I bet in a few months, if you're in a competitive space, it's not going to be the case anymore. It's going to change because Amazon changes, people adjust, people learn from each other. I can see what my competitors are doing and I can do the same, right? So that's why You have to be consistent not only with the basics but also with staying on top of things and trying new things and experimenting and being willing to be that pioneer in the space in your specific niche. And the way you do that is by actually tapping into your target audience and asking them, hey, what matters? Why did you click this? When you bought this last time, what was the reason that you chose this specific product? All of these questions that help you understand And by serving them better, by out-carrying your competition, you can win long-term. And it's not a one-time thing. Again, it's something you have to always do every single month. There's a new thing you need to change. And then others will just repeat. Others will just copy. And you become that golden standard. That's kind of the path in the future. That's one thing. Maximize an Amazon marketplace. So conversion being the main algorithm booster. Now, another part of it, and I see this more and more, especially lately, I think is the external traffic. You just can't ignore it. Brands who bring their own traffic to Amazon win because Amazon allows external traffic. Also, boost your algorithm. So if you can master both Amazon algorithm, converting on Amazon better, and bringing traffic from outside, you're unstoppable. No matter what changes, if you master these two things, next, I would say three to five years, you're going to be fine. So if I'm building a new brand, I'm looking for something that is going to work really well with creators. I'd love to be able to diversify and not only depend on Amazon, so something that works well with TikTok shop, Instagram reels, YouTube, and people would bring traffic to me no matter where I sell because that part is of the nature of what creators love, right? And I'd always have to stay on top of things to maximize the platform I'm on. In our specific conversation, it's Amazon, and it's all about making sure your offer is customer-centric. Speaker 1: Yeah. Dude, I love all that. I think the thing that stood out for me, and I actually jotted it down because I think it's amazing, is I'll convert consistently. And I think People understand, again, on paper, everybody gets it, right? Like, yeah, but I have a bit higher conversion rate. Higher conversion rate means I get more sales, means I get more reviews, means I get better organic ranking, means my pay-per-click's cheaper. Conceptually, they get it, but I think that people think of conversion as a finite one-time activity a lot of times, even though I think we all get that it's an ongoing thing, but I think we think about it like, okay, I'm doing a product launch. I'm doing my listing images and my listing. I put a crap ton of time in because the launch is coming up. You do it. Maybe that first month, you're optimizing things a little bit as your certainty data come in. And then inevitably, it's like you've got these other SKUs that have been around for four years. You need to do supply chain planning and negotiate with suppliers. And you have new launches coming. You're going into new markets. And I think a lot of people just sit on their hands and it's like, okay, It's a one-off activity or a very, very sporadic activity to optimize the conversion of a listing, which is ironic because the money that we spend on pay-per-click and the amount of money and time that we would spend on optimizing pay-per-click campaigns, you're doing that every single week, maybe every couple of days. But conversion is not a consistent activity. So I think the fact that you call it consistency is huge. And I think the other thing is people are aware of Amazon ABA experiments. I think most people now at least know what that is. Many people have done it. Yeah, hopefully. I think way back in the day, you know, pick food kind of came on the scene and was like before even Amazon experiments. So I think people kind of understand the concept a little bit. But I would say it's shocking how little sophistication there is around a process around how do you actually optimize conversion rate. So, good lead in. You've got basically a five-step process that you guys have built out, and I think it's got layers that most people haven't heard of, and it's certainly a degree of sophistication that I think not many people execute on. And I think with that sophistication, with that system, you do get to out-convert consistently, as you mentioned. So, let's maybe dive into that SOP. For those on the podcast, we'll verbalize it as best we can. This is also going to go up on YouTube as well, where we're going to visualize this. There'll also be a link down below both on YouTube and in the show notes on podcast where you guys can access this SOP yourself in PDF form. But we'll kind of throw it up on the screen for those that are seeing in that medium and then we'll talk through it as well verbally. But let's kind of get into your five-step SOP on how do you actually do this stuff. Speaker 2: No, absolutely. And just for clarity, so the SOP I'm going to share will be for the main image, which is not everything you need to optimize, but obviously the 80-20 because 20% of your efforts that you put into the main image will most likely translate into 80% of your conversion results. It helps you with click-through, but also with conversion. So if it's okay, I'll just share my screen now and we'll dive into a real life example. Okay. Speaker 1: And 90% of people don't even do the main image. So we're, again, prior principle, I think this is where we start. Speaker 2: Okay, so I'll start with the big picture. So essentially, market research can be split into two major parts. So it's the qualitative research and the quantitative research. And qualitative is essentially the reasoning, the why behind the purchase behavior. And quantitative is pure stats. No background whatsoever why things happen, but you just see, hey, A1 or B1, and you don't know why, but you see the data, right? Now let's dive into the SOP. So the five-step main image testing SOP My product opinion is essentially these five steps starting with a video shop along. So we watch how people shop and they answer out loud in a loom video format all the questions you ask. So that gives us the most unfiltered feedback on what they actually think. And we can set up the search results page or their listings. And that's how we collect that initial qualitative data. Second stage is the search simulation baseline. So we find out what What's winning and how we're actually doing in the current setup, our before essentially, our baseline. And third stage, with all of that insights, all the customer objections we learned, all of the shopper ideas we've heard, we can develop new concepts. And these new concepts, we A, B test, we develop the best one. And as a result of all of this process, And the best one goes into step number four, which is the new concept, Search Simulation. So we're going to see how the new image performs in the Amazon Marketplace setup in the real, more like a real-life situation, right? And if we're winning at number four, only then we dive into number five, which is Direct Upload to Amazon or Manager Experiments. To see how we actually do, how it impacts our revenue. So if you split it into qualitative, quantitative, number one, video feedback, purely qualitative, super unfiltered. No real data, because you can ask five, 10 people, maybe 20, but it's not really statistically significant yet. Now, step two, three, four is both qualitative and quantitative, because people choose the option, but also explain themselves, so you have the reasoning behind it. And only number five is purely quantitative, that's essentially on the marketplace. Now, I have an example for you, where we can go through what Amazon won't tell you, these first four steps. And how it actually helps us win with number five. So this knee pillow, real product, UK seller, something we actually shared on the Main Image Monthly a few months ago and just followed up recently to get the actual numbers from Amazon. So we worked on this with Danny, with Dorian Gorski, Sima Han, myself and my partner Matt. And the first step, as I said, is a video shop-along simulation. We watched 10 UK females. They recorded a screen and they answered three questions. So these were the questions. Essentially, look at the search results. Which products would you click into and why? Second question was, click into your top three and for each, what did you like? What could be improved? And last question was, For this category, what are the most important features and benefits? So all of that gave us really good ideas. So the ideas, the objections or concerns that we've heard were essentially, is it machine washable? Is it orthopedic approved? I like the option that says orthopedic approved. And then I'd like to see more color variations. Which actually led us to another idea. We launched a new one. So we want to differentiate. Another variation could be multiple colors on the new pillow. So then you address number one and number three. You can have something new on your pillow while you're washing the first one. And you can have multiple different color variations, all including the same product. Like probably adding 5 to 10 cents to your cost of goods, right? So anyway, second stage, now we have this completely unfiltered feedback. We want to measure our before, right? So this is the contextual baseline test. So what we're doing is this kind of search simulation, okay? It looks like Amazon, but this is product opinion. So we just handpicked the most similar products to us. It's us at the bottom left. So we look pretty much the same. So we only selected the exact same design. Someone that we know people buy if they don't buy us. And what happened is we measured how many clicks we got and we only got 7% of all the clicks. This is our baseline. This is our before. 7.07% of all the clicks belongs to us. And we also learned what matters the most. So there's opinion GPT built into it. So I could ask, hey, apart from reviews and ranking and pricing, explain to me what people paid attention to the most. So if I summarize the three major things, it's aesthetic appeal and design. So it has to be functionally effective, but also visually pleasing. Number two would be product quality. So longevity, robustness. So washable cover would be part of it. And number three would be trust in brand. So reputation, reliability, and anything doctor developed, anything orthopedic approved definitely got a lot of attention. So we've got these reasons. Now with that, we're diving into stage number three. Now we're working with a graphic designer so we can develop better concepts based on what people Sad matters. So this is our original. This is what we're working with. Pretty boring, right? Nothing special. I probably wouldn't click on this. And this is the competition that actually got the most clicks. I think it was like roughly 40% of all the clicks went to this guy. And this is what tends to win. Okay, now we can learn from them as well. We always have to. So what people said, I clicked on this because of the memory foam. I clicked on it because of orthopedic approved. Design, orthopedic, memory foam, orthopedic approved, all of these things were kept repeating. Now we knew what people paid attention to. So this is us in the bottom left, if you can see this in the video. Top right, this is our competitor. So what Dorian who is the creative director on this little case study, he's like, oh, they're breaking the pattern. Everyone's horizontal, but this guy put that knee pillow vertically. You instantly break the pattern. So now we gather attention. What are you going to do with that next is the next step, but you still need to get the attention first. So why don't we do the same? So what ended up happening? He developed these three concepts. Let me ask you, Adam, which one do you think won? Speaker 1: C. Speaker 2: Okay, you think it's C. And it is C, you're right. For the reasons we discussed, people wanted the washable cover. And we also strategically used the colors here, highlighting that it's also doctor developed. And it is a UK product. I was betting on B personally. I thought the UK flag would make a big difference. No, they actually cared a lot more about utility. So C won. It won by a lot. 80% is still significant. So we know it has the best chance out of the ones we developed. We did this test in a mobile search simulation, but honestly, you don't have to. It can even be a simple image split test on a white background. This way, we're just reminding people why we're asking them this question. And the fourth step, now that we have the new concept that is the best we have so far, we're going to upload it to the exact same test as we did before. So remember this test, Amazon search simulation, this baseline, right? Now, our baseline was 7%, so all we did was we launched similar as one step function there. You copy the whole setup and all you do is you replace the main image, the exact same test, but you also exclude last shoppers. We're the only ones can offer that because they're biased. They might choose the same thing they chose before just because they're used to it. They've seen it before, right? So we excluded these other participants. Kept the same demographics. Now this is what it looks like. This is us in the top right. Definitely stands out more, right? Speaker 1: Definitely. Speaker 2: Yeah, so more similar to the bestseller, but also with our own unique tweak, our branding. You want to see the result? Speaker 1: I do. Speaker 2: I hope that idea was from everybody watching this. So the result is the new baseline is 14%. So essentially we doubled it. So it's from seven to 14 just by changing one main image. Right. But mind you, this is simulated click through rate improvement. Okay. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: So obviously we've got to do this on Amazon. So step number five, Final stage, you do an Amazon AAB test or manager experiments or direct upload if you don't have enough traffic. And the seller who actually owns this brand just uploaded directly. Couldn't wait, didn't want to do manager experiments. Don't ask me why, I didn't talk to them. Sim just forwarded this to me so I had to screenshot. He said, hey, it improved. We calculated it. The increase in conversion went up by 14.29%. And they did the change in the UK and in Canada. Both got similar improvements, but UK got much more, and that's their main market. So in real numbers, they sent us this screenshot as well. This is what it means. The months, they still use the old image. They had $54,000 in sales, this one product. Next month, once they uploaded the image, still the forecast was last week of that month, but almost 70,000 pounds in a month. Essentially, 15,000 pounds difference. If you convert it to USD, that'd be like $19,000 difference just by changing the image. Quite insane. And all we had to spend to develop this whole A-B testing SOP for them was $447. And I just threw that into ChatGPT because I'm always curious about ROI. And the ROI is like 4,286%. Yeah, not taking into account cost of goods. ChatGPT didn't ask me that. But it's definitely a pretty incredible ROI if you ask me. Yeah, that's my little case study. Speaker 1: What's interesting for me about this, because if I'm being honest, I was pretty early on in doing the A-B testing on Amazon's platform. And again, if you look historically, it was primarily PickFu. There were some other ones that came out. It was basically like doing an A-B experiment on Amazon, but basically to random people that take surveys and shoppers. My thought was like, okay, I always thought that this kind of testing was really important pre-launch because obviously you don't have an Amazon listing that you can do an Amazon experiment with if you're yet to launch the product. So it was good for product research, kind of helping to define what I would do before I actually develop the product or if I had my product in development. What was the imaging that would make sense? So it made sense for that. But then I'm like, you know, once you launch a product like Amazon's giving you the data with actual people shopping, with people with actual credit cards making buying decisions on your product type. So I frankly discounted these kind of tools and these strategies post launch. And I think what's been really interesting is I've started to really dive into conversion rate optimization because again, the last I would say 18 to 24 months, it's become one of the biggest levers that you can press, especially as ad costs have gotten more expensive and a lot of the strategies that used to be able to differentiate on Amazon have kind of become much more table stakes for people, is that there's so much that you can do in front of an Amazon experiment to save time, to save money, and to get insights and ideas. And I think For me, sometimes you just don't know what the ideas are. You don't know what to hit on. You could have a guess. I think if I made a vertical pillow, then I go to the designer, I do an A-B experiment, but that's going to negate a lot of the feedback that you get from some of those simulations and some of those qualitative comments that you get from people. How you broken it out means it makes a ton of sense and I think that a lot of times people just don't know where to start. It's like if I knew the steps to take, I would do the steps, but I've got so much going on, I don't know the steps. So I think this helps solve the step equation. One of the questions that I have, and also the speed too, you can get a lot of this stuff done in 24 hours or less, which makes it really fast. Speaker 2: You're right. People just don't know what they don't know. There's a lot of things that we as sellers just have no idea about from the customer perspective, right? Speaker 1: Yeah, 100%. Yeah, so I think the idea generation is huge. I think the one question that I've got, which maybe still hangs people up is, Okay, even if I've got these ideas, I've got kind of insights on how I think I could optimize, say, the main image. In terms of executing the actual creative, what have you found to be the workflows that work best for that? I think most Amazon sellers are not going to have an internal graphics team. If they're larger sellers, they will. What's the best way to actually execute on Creative Direction? I've used Dorian. Obviously, he's a stud. His agency is the best in the business, in my opinion, but people may not have that budget available, right? What's the best way to execute on that? If you've got a seller that's, say, doing a million a year, they've always used Fiverr designers for their logos and packaging and all their other stuff, and they're like, okay, I realize that my listing needs work. I'm executing on your SOPs. But I don't know how to actually get the creative executed. How do you cross that friction point? Because I think aside from knowing what to do, that's probably the next hurdle for sellers is like, this is all well and dandy, but I don't even know who the best designers are to use. I don't know how to take these briefs and give them to people. What do you suggest for people on actually executing creative changes that unlock this value of creative optimization or conversion optimization? Sorry. Speaker 2: You're so right. It's such a big bottleneck because research alone won't really do anything. You need to execute on it. Obviously, with AI coming into play, it definitely helps. Well, it depends on who you ask. Some creative agencies go out of business, but generally speaking, it helps the sellers. To create new concepts, right? And you can easily test more because now we have access to AI. You can leverage it to create a lot more ideas. Now, if you want to play with it and develop new images, leveraging AI, plenty of tools. I'm not going to name too many because by the time this goes live, there's a new one that's going to be better. So you just have to stay on top of things, be in the right communities and see what works. I personally still think we need a creative director behind this process and not necessarily the seller themselves. Because we sellers, we kind of develop blind spots. We may be in the space for quite some time. We've been selling the same thing for years. We think we know everything, but we don't really know everything. It's like it's your baby, right? So you think it's perfect. Speaker 1: And honestly, I'm just going to say it. Most Amazon sellers have really shitty taste. I'm just going to say it. They're great at running businesses, they're great risk takers, they're great at moving fast, whatever else, but I would say the aesthetic taste of a lot of Amazon sellers is not necessarily their forte. Speaker 2: I think this is also important. I've seen so many examples of shady images winning. It's not really the aesthetics. It's whether you address the questions people have in their minds, whether you put them at ease, build trust visually and with your branding and everything, but it's not as much Like, aesthetically pleasing images that win, but the ones who actually outcare the competition, the ones who tell you what you're looking for, right? Is it washable, right? I am washable. Boom. You get the click, right? Or is it doctor developed? Like, maybe all of them are the exact same model developed by the exact same doctor, but you say that, you get the click, right? All of these small things that we as sellers just don't have energy for it, because we deal with so many different things. We deal with PPC, like logistics, everything, right? So that's why I think you still need a human responsible for interpreting that research and putting it into visual execution. And you mentioned Dorian. I work with him a lot. Love the guy. Super smart. And that's all he does. Just like with Amazon businesses, if you run the business, you know everything about the Amazon marketplace. He knows everything about how to interpret that data, right? But there are many smart people in the space. I can probably suggest you some if you message me. But obviously, it all depends on your specific niche, how competitive it is, what you tried. And not everyone's comfortable with every niche as well. Even Dorian can't really crack the codes for every single product, honestly. But I think it's still important to work with someone who loves the data, loves creating images, and loves reiterating. It's not a one-stop shop. In that specific case study, we showed you three images, but we probably created eight or something. And then we narrowed down, oh, these have the best chances now. So it takes a lot of back and forth, a lot of trial and error. So unless you really enjoy it, work with someone else, even if it's someone who's leveraging AI, might be just one person leveraging different tools of AI, you'll be able to do that. And another option for probably for bigger brands, because you did say Dorian's not cheap, and that's who I partner with for the down for you product opinions. We also have that option. Where it's completely down for you. You don't have to touch a thing. You just get guaranteed conversion improvements. It is guaranteed based on the product. We have to look at it first and then we can tell you if it is. It's completely done for you and all uploaded to Amazon Experiments and the results are based on Amazon specifically, not our idea of Product Opinion results only, but we do get all of the research from Product Opinion to develop new concepts essentially. But yeah, it's still a hard part. Oh, another quick one, Adam. So there's a tool also within Product Opinion called Variationizer. Think of Canva for Amazon sellers. So if you're an authoritative brand, right, if you just need to develop images yourself and you're just thinking maybe add this label, it's going to do better. Instead of you going back and forth with a Fiverr designer forever, it takes weeks for a simple tweak to execute it the way you want, you can just use something like Canva, right? Or might as well use something like Variationizer, which is free at this point. It's still in beta, so you don't have to pay anything. And Leverage is AI. It can generate essentially anything that comes to your mind, and it's fully compliant with Amazon image guidelines as well. Speaker 1: Cool. Yeah, and let me clarify this, too. I think what I mean by that is, again, if you look at some of the results, People will agonize over Amazon pay-per-click and they'll spend $50,000 a month on Amazon pay-per-click and not bat an eye. A lot of this stuff is the most ROI creative thing you can do, even if it costs thousands of dollars to optimize the images. The payback on that, using your example, a lot of the times it's less than a month. So I think you've got to think about it, not in terms of a cost, but in terms of an ROI, return on investment. But I think there also are sellers that are doing a million a year. They're trying to run as much as they can on their own. They don't necessarily have that kind of volume to drop that. And so just what are the processes available to them? And I think you bring up another point in terms of the optimizer or the variationizer and using Canva. What's cool about this approach for me, especially those first four steps, You don't necessarily need to have a graphic design optimized thousand-dollar image that was created by a designer and took them hours and hours and hours. You can literally take your existing images, change the contrast, take the existing image, change the position, put a badge on it, and test those things really inexpensively to see, okay, my baseline was 7%. Even with me doing a bastardized version in Canva, and I'm not a designer, I was able to get it to 12%. Okay, well, what would happen now if I take that concept and give it to a designer and pay them 500 bucks to optimize what I did in Canva but really professionalize it and take that to Amazon? So I think that there's also incrementality that you can move quick. It doesn't have to be perfect because it's an artificial but real test environment. So you're getting real feedback in an artificial environment. So it's not going to impact your sales. You're not going to be unprofessional by having kind of a slightly edited version in Canva as an example. Dude, I love this. I love how transparent you are with sharing your learnings with people. It really does help people accelerate their businesses, deal with challenges, have a positive outlet for them to direct their attention to. So you're an amazing human being. You've built an amazing tool and you're building amazing systems that help sellers. So it was great reconnecting with you, man. Thanks for jumping on here and sharing your wisdom. We've talked about this. I'm going to do some kind of more deep dive stuff on my channel. In probably the next six months, there's a bunch of interesting things I'm cooking up behind the scenes. I'm actually going to lock arms with Andri on this and we'll share what we find with the world on that, man. But excited to kind of dive into some of my own case studies with this stuff. But you're doing good work out there, man. I appreciate you coming on and sharing your wisdom with the podcast and YouTube world of Amazon sellers, man. Thanks. Speaker 2: Appreciate you, Adam. Thank you for having me. Cool.