Redefine Your Brand with the Creator Economy! | Founder of Joinbrands - Ian Sells | MMP #037

Redefine Your Brand with the Creator Economy! [Influencer Marketing 2025] | Ian Sells | MMP #037 Ian Sells: Every video gets exposed no matter what to like 300 or so people. Right. And if those people interact, engage, or watch for a certain amount of time, it gets exposed to the next layer of people. And then again, the next layer of people, it's like a, it's a, it's a step-by-step process because they're trying to see if this is a good video and it's engaging and it's going all the way through. Unknown Speaker: You're watching The Marketing Misfits with Norm Farrar and Kevin King. Kevin King: You know, Mr. Farrar, I think there's something that you and I have in common. You know what that is? Yeah, we're old. Besides that, we both love something. We both love the same thing. If it was a woman, it would be like the perfect woman. It's ice cream. We both love ice cream. Unknown Speaker: We do. Kevin King: That's my woman. I've never been somewhere with you where you're like, didn't have to have an ice cream. You remember we were at the podcast show in Washington, D.C. back in August of last year, and at night, you know, there's this little place that closed at midnight, but we're out there smoking cigars till two in the morning. So you can't go buy an ice cream to take back to the room to eat. Norm likes to have his late night snack because the thing's going to melt. So he went and got some chips or some candies or something. We're walking back and we see this machine. And out of the corner of my eye, we're going to the elevator and I see this machine over way in this corner. I was like, is that one of those ice cream machines? And Norm's ears like a dog. Unknown Speaker: Ice cream machine. Yeah, there's an ice cream machine, I think, over there. It's one of those automated ice cream machines. Kevin King: Well, let's go. So we go over to this ice cream machine and in this ice cream machine is It's like one of those like, you know, those things like when you try to put a quarter in, you got a little thing to get a bear and you pull the bear out. It's like one of those things. You put your credit card and it's like this little arm comes and goes and picks your favorite flavor out. There's like a Baskin Robbins kind of thing. And Norm was like in heaven. He's like, give me two. I'll take two of these things. But speaking of ice cream, I mean, I remember you, you just told me a story just a little bit ago and we'll tie into that. But you were about a year ago, you're at my house and I know where you're going. I know, you know, having some talks and some stuff. And I keep a little, little things of ice cream. Bluebell ice cream is what's popular in Texas. The little, the single serving things, you know, you'd see them at a birthday party or something. There's a bunch of them in my fridge. I got different flavors in there. So one night, you want a 3 a.m. snack or something, so you go stumbling in there half asleep, pull out an ice cream, start eating it. And something happened, but we didn't know about this until the next day. We were at dinner and you told the story and I think I've never laughed so hard in my life because you're like, Kevin, you know, last night, I, you know, I went to get some, I didn't know you were here listening to, I was talking to Vanessa. I lost it for like 10 minutes. I could not stop laughing. So I had ice cream for humans and I had another kind of ice cream in there. And so Norm had gone in and he said he was eating this ice cream and he's like, this is kind of weird tasting ice cream down here in Texas. And it's like, He's like, he looks at it, it's like, yeah, it looks kind of like birthday cake flavor or something. Yeah, confetti. Dots all over it. Yeah. Confetti dots and stuff on it. Takes another bite, he's like, oh, no, this, something's not right. So he takes another look at it and he starts seeing little bones on, little design bones on it. He's like, oh, this is frosty, Paul. This is for dogs. There's ice cream dogs. He was eating the ice cream for the freaking dogs. And so he didn't want to tell anybody. He's like, this is embarrassing. So he does like what you do when you're a kid and you eat something out of the fridge and you don't want your mom to know. You go and you bury it in the bottom of the trash. You know, you take out half of the trash can and you stick it in the bottom, like stick it down in there in the bottom so no one would ever know. And he's telling the story about how he ate the dog ice cream. And then you tell me just today, last night, you go into your, you have another 3 a.m. ice cream run at your house. Yep. And what happened? Well, my wife had these single serve things, just like you, right? And it was in the fridge. So I go up, I just broke it off. I said, OK, start eating it. Didn't think nothing of it. Then my wife comes out. Connie comes out to me today and she says, oh, you ate Dallas's ice cream. I was like, what? Did I do this again? But no, luckily she bought it for him and it was a regular human ice cream. So. Yeah, I don't know, man. You're going to have to start checking your ice cream. Unknown Speaker: Oh, man. Kevin King: Careful. But I tell you that ice cream for dogs, you know, if you were in a puree kind of, you know, if you think of bologna pureed, And Frozen, that's what it tasted like. Just slightly off. Speaking of that, I wonder if some creator on TikTok or something could actually do some sort of cool video to actually sell Dog ice cream like to like make some dog ice cream go viral like if they could like I wonder if they're maybe someone's already done it. You know, I just like a Black Friday Cyber Monday last year. I saw all these doing like a million dollars freaking on a live stream like an hour and like Just crazy freaking numbers, and I saw that for Black Friday Cyber Monday, I think Adobe came out with all these stats like this day did this much and this day did this much, and they had some interesting stats, and they said 6.8% of all sales in the United States on Black Friday Cyber Monday, that five-day stretch, was attributed to the creator economy. Was that influencers and people doing UGC actually Contributing, that's a pretty significant number, 7% basically of all sales were directly correlated, directly. That's not indirectly, like where you can't, you know, someone might go to Amazon and buy something because they saw it on TikTok and you don't know, they just typed in the search terms because they saw it three days earlier. So it's probably double or triple that. And that industry has blown up. And our guest today has been on the cutting edge. This guy is what, I mean, he's been in the marketing space for a long time. He runs a group of He created a group of like 700, seven, eight, nine figure sellers. You gotta be doing like a million dollars a year on e-commerce and up. It's like awesome freaking group that he created that's all these guys that get together and share tactics. He created another tool that helped people launch their products on Amazon and e-commerce and Walmart and other places. And then he sold the writing on the wall early days, like 2019, 2020, like, hey, I see this TikTok little thing coming along and these people were like back then they were called influencers and now they're called, you know, it's more creators. We'll talk about the difference of that. Yeah, but and he's like, I'm gonna get on a gang floor. So he developed the software and to hook up creators with an influencers with e-com sellers and he's crushing it now and he knows more about this space and what's going on. So I'm super excited to have him coming on today and be talking about this because it's something that everybody needs to be paying attention to and everybody needs to put it as part of their marketing strategy and part of their mix no matter whether you're selling e-commerce and physical products or digital products or you got a store, you know, on Main Street selling donuts. This is something that you need to be doing. Yeah, and I think maybe we could team up with him and start partnering with Dog Ice Cream. We just have to... That's right. We need to tell him, Ian, we need a Dog Ice Cream influencer. We need to do this. And we could actually recreate your scene of middle of the night going in and making this mistake. And who knows, maybe it'll go viral, but we should bring him on. All right. Ian, Ian Sales, how are you doing, man? There we go. Here's the man. Ian Sells: There he is. Hey, how you guys doing today? Kevin King: Good. How are you, man? Ian Sells: Good. So we're looking for a dog ice cream influencer. Is that correct? Kevin King: That's right. A dog ice cream influencer. You got one in your arsenal? Ian Sells: We do have dog ice cream influencers, actually. We have many. Kevin King: Really? I mean, I was just joking there. Do you have that? Ian Sells: I mean, what dog doesn't love ice cream? Kevin King: Exactly. True. Ian Sells: We got lots of dogs. So yeah, there you go. We can bring you hundreds of creatives of dogs licking ice cream out of bowls. Off the walls, off the ground. Kevin King: Can you mention to the creator? Ian Sells: Whatever you need, we have a creator for that. That's the beauty of the creator economy. Kevin King: Could you do me a favor, Ian? Could you go back to the creator or to the person producing the ice cream and tell them, make it vanilla. Make it banana. Don't make it meat. Ian Sells: Yeah, right? Hey, how do you know what the dog likes? Maybe the dog likes a meat ice cream and not a banana. Kevin King: I don't care. It's what I like and if I stumble into the fridge again. Ian Sells: You want the ice cream to be properly marked so that you don't accidentally eat it, right? That's right. It looks too much like delicious ice cream and you just go ahead and go grab it because it's late night and you can smoke a cigar and you're not really paying much attention. You're like, Delicious ice cream. Kevin King: Well, that... He didn't have his glasses on. He's like, oh, this looks like confetti or birthday. Ian Sells: Honestly, I think that would be a better ad. Influencer is like the humans going to consume the thing and the dogs barking at them like, dude, that's mine. There you go. Instead, the dog is just lifting it up and doing it that way, right? So that's... Kevin King: That's a perfect creative for that. That's exactly. So what's happening out there in the influencer world? You've been on the ground floor from day zero almost and you're just like, you're just exploding. Ian Sells: Yeah, I mean, it's exciting to be a part of but there is so much changing so fast, you know, that it's really hard to keep up with, right? Is the creator economy now the affiliate economy or is it the UGC economy or like what is actually happening? There's so many pieces to the puzzle and there's not one right answer and there's lots of brands trying. There are some that are having immense success quickly and then some that are just falling flat and going, is this another? Is this another platform, another thing, a shiny object that I shouldn't focus on, right? So yeah, it's the same. Kevin King: What's the difference, explain, let's just do some fundamental stuff. What's the difference between a creator and an influencer? Ian Sells: So a creator is like the essence of an influencer, right? They create content and it's whether it's for themselves or they like to tell a story or they want to do a vlog or whatever. A creator is a person that likes to tell stories visually, right? For the most part, there's also creators that are writers and things like that. An influencer, the way that came around was, okay, there's people who have these audiences of people that will follow them, right? Just like celebrities, they're the ultimate influencer, right? If Brad Pitt does something, it's going to influence a lot of people or Angelina Jolie or Taylor Swift, right? So the influence part is, okay, how do I take my audience that's authentic, hopefully, that influences other people to take a certain action? And that's an influencer. Kevin King: Hey, what's up, everybody? Kevin and Norm here with a quick word from one of our sponsors, 8Fig. Let me tell you about a platform that's changing the game for Amazon sellers. That's right. It's called 8Fig. On average, sellers working with 8Fig grow up to 400% in less than a year. 8Fig offers both funding and free tools for e-commerce growth and cash flow management. And here's how it works. 8Fig provides flexible data-driven funding tailored to your exact needs. You know, they could fund anywhere from up to $50,000 all the way up to $10 million. 8Fig gives you free tools to forecast demand, manage inventory, and analyze cash flow. Visit 8Fig.co, that's 8Fig.co to learn more or check the link in the show notes below. Just mention marketing misfits and get 25% off your cost. That's 8Fig.co, 8Fig.co. Unknown Speaker: See you on the other side. Kevin King: So influencers, I see it more in the old days. I remember like 2017, 2018, I was using a site before I joined brands. Like FameBit, I don't even know if it's still around. There are several like that and you would have to go on and you pay them. You say I'll give you 200 bucks to show my makeup kit or whatever and give me a plug back to Amazon. Now though, that still happens, but there's less of that and now it's a lot of times it's becoming almost like an affiliate. You go to creators and a lot of this is because of TikTok, I think. And you have them create stuff and how well they do in that video determines how much money they make, basically. Ian Sells: So they're making money. So then there's the affiliate, which is not only are you a creator, but you can create content in a way that captures attention, engages the audience and gets them to take an action. And an affiliate doesn't necessarily, especially with TikTok, does not necessarily have to have an audience. So because TikTok allows anybody to go viral, essentially. Kevin King: I remember I've had a couple of people that reached out in our group that had used a creator and did not get their permission to go on to social and start promoting it for themselves. Now, either they did it Knowingly or unknowingly, you know, you try to bring out that you just can't do that. You can't steal a creator's content and use it as your own. It has to be predefined, you know, how you can use the creator's information. You're just taking the video, Norm? Yeah. I'll tell you one that just happened was one of my clients, He took a creator's video, a very well-known creator, and used his knife, and the guy used the knife, and he paid for it. Everything was cool. Then he took it, and he used it on Amazon, and he used it in other social media, and the creator came back and sued him for a lot of money. And it's got to be upfront. A lot of people don't realize that's not your, well, it depends, you know, but if you agree. It's your product, but it's not your IP. Right. The person spent the money to shoot this, to film this, to write their script or wing it, whatever they did. That's their IP. You own the product. That's your product. Yeah. The key to this is if you got consent upfront, it might've cost you $500 more. You know, or whatever it would be more. But now, you know, we're talking in the five figures that he's got to pay to get this lawsuit off of his back. Ian Sells: Yeah, you know, there are laws around people's IP. You can't just take content, take people's photos and use them to market your products without express permission, authorization, you know, or exchange of, you know, value, right? And so this is a change of the industry and there's even more, you know, guidelines that keep coming up because of authenticity issues, right? I can pay anybody to represent my product. But if it's not authentic and they're pushing your product and they're not disclosing that they've been paid for it, it's a problem because it's deceiving consumers. Kevin King: I just have it with the crypto stuff with like Tom Brady and all the guys that were pushing crypto, right? Ian Sells: Yeah, and I mean with so many things, right? And so, you're getting testimonials from people who aren't your real customers claiming to be your customers. That's deceiving customers, right? So, it's an ever-evolving space of what is the media and the forum and the content and how do you get it out there, right? And so, that is the ultimate challenge that brands, hotels, restaurants, they all face is how do I get more customers to trust my products to tell others about my products and to grow, right? Creators is really like going back to the grassroots word-of-mouth marketing, right? It is coming. I can have a hundred people posting about my product and coming out of a hundred people's mouths and that tells a story to other people that get exposed to that going, oh, if Norm likes my product and talks about it, then it must be good and therefore I'm friends with Norm, so I'm going to go try it out. That's why there's a lot of issues with this. Kevin King: So with joint brands, how does that work? How does the IP work? Ian Sells: Well, with Join Brands, I mean, we have it all in our terms of service that any piece of content that you pay for through the platform, and not every piece of content that you get from the creators you have to pay for, but if they upload, let's say, multiple pieces of assets, you can buy one. You own exclusive rights to that content. But you can't just go taking the content you didn't pay for and taking off the watermarks or something like that, right? The IP doesn't transfer without purchasing it from the creator. And the way that we set up is you get unlimited, unrestricted rights to that content. So some platforms will just have a monthly fee for it. Some platforms, you can negotiate with the creators. Us, we just set it as a flat... We think that content is important, but there's a lot more that goes into making sales happen once that content is in the brand's hands. You got to spend ads, you got to clip it, you got to add text, you got to do some B-roll, what have you. So getting that content quickly is important, but it's not the full gambit. Kevin King: In the world of infomercials, that was the hot thing before this whole social media blew up where people were pitching stuff online. It was late night television and infomercials. And that's a business that I followed for a while and looked into and almost pulled the trigger on doing some infomercials. I went to several infomercial conferences, and that was an issue with testimonials and authenticity. The US government, the FTC, passed some laws about testimonials. You've got to say, this was a paid actor. You still see that today. A Chick-fil-A commercial during a football game, they'll say, this was a paid actor. It flashes really quick. But there's none of that really on social media. It's wild, wild west right now. Unless someone sues like in Norm's case. Are there any regulations? Is there a body trying to enforce this? Or the platforms themselves trying to enforce it? Or is it just the law? Ian Sells: Yeah, the FTC. I mean, it's up to the brand and the creators ultimately to represent themselves properly. We disclosed in our terms of service that they need to do that. But yeah, depending on how they use the assets, they need to say that this was a paid promotion or that this is authentic review of the product. So I wasn't scripted on what to say. Those are things that need to be disclosed if you want to do it properly. Is it happening in aggregate? I would say probably not. People want to float the line and do the least amount possible so that seemingly is more of a natural presentation or demo or more enticing. So I think there's still work to be done. And I'm seeing also reports of the FTC is all over AI-generated content. You know, promoting products because it's like, it's very deceiving. This is not a real person, you know, speaking of AI influencers, let's say. Kevin King: TikTok has that now where you can create your own AI avatar. Yeah. Who wants anything? Ian Sells: Yeah, but they're also putting disclaimers that this is an AI avatar, that this is an AI-generated video. This is because it can be very deceiving if they create an AI avatar of a woman transitioning from having lots of acne to being beautiful with no perfect skin, right, in an AI video, and you're convincing consumers that's what your product does when it may, in fact, do nothing, right? And so these are the things that they're trying to combat right now. And so yeah, I think at the end of the day, authenticity and like authentic content, you know, is going to prevail because it is true word of mouth. And that's really kind of what this all goes back to is like, how can I get a bunch of People to influence others and the best influencers now kind of because the space is being so crowded is generally the authentic people who have a smaller following, right? If you post something, Kevin, I follow you. I'm going to pay attention because I trust what you say. I may not eat dog ice cream, but it's important, you know, when you, when you have, you know, trust in, in, the space. Even MDS has trust. Kevin King: What builds that trust? Every 12-year-old now, when they grow up, they used to be, I want to be a doctor or lawyer. I want to be an astronaut. Now, I want to be a creator. They don't have to wait until they grow up. They can start doing it when they're 12. What Is it that from the creator side, forget the e-commerce and the other side, if someone listening to this wants to be a creator, like my chef, for example, he's probably listening to this right now. Shout out, Chad. How are you doing? He was just at my house cooking last week. And he has Facebook glasses on, you know, I do the video and he's like doing a live stream as he's making my enchiladas and telling people how to do the recipe and how to do this. And I asked him, I was like, how many people are on here lives like 200 people, something in like 30 of them stayed the whole hour or something like that. I was like, so how are you monetizing this? And he's like, well, I'm still figuring that out. Maybe they'll buy this knife or this, you know, I'll mention some different things on the link to Amazon. But how does someone like that build trust? Or someone listening to this, their wife or their kid, how does the influencer build that trust? What do you got to do? Is it just constantly be posting? Is it a personality thing where someone just relates to them? How do you build that trust so that you can then flip that into making money? Ian Sells: Yeah, I mean, I'm no psychologist or expert on building trust. I mean, I know trust is built through You know, being true to your word and following through and educating and sharing and like being helpful, right? And so through those things, probably more things, but through those, like you can build trust over time. Trust is built in a relationship over time, you know, online over time, right? If you see an infomercial, the reason why they air so frequently is to build that trust. This is, ShamWow is the product that's going to change my, you know, my car cleaning experience for the rest of my life, right? You know and and that that that personality was a I think the guy that was promoting that the personality was important, right? He was captivated. He was funny and witty and was able to keep your attention. Kevin King: So yeah, I think you know, it's something that people do over time, but I think I think you said there I think it's often it's it's touch points like Norm says is 21 touch points and So it's a number of touch points. I think it's authenticity. You being authentic and people believe that you're authentic, whether you're lying or not. And I think it's also being personable. I mean, you look at the newsletter space. Norm and I have both done this with our newsletters. We cover a lot of stuff in the Amazon world in our newsletters and with The Marketing Misfits newsletter, we cover the marketing world. We also put personal stuff in there. Norm leads off every one of his newsletters with a story and he ties it back. And those kinds of things build that trust, like, oh, this is a human. This is not just a machine. This is not just someone, you know, this is someone I can relate to. And I think that's what a lot of creators that fail, or failing to do, is failing to actually just be themselves and be authentic and be real. And I think that's what really, and it takes time. I mean, you look at the same things with the newsletter. I'm referring this to a newsletter because I'm not a creator, but I'm a creator in a different way, I guess. On the newsletter, when I started the newsletter a year, my newsletter a year and a half ago almost, It took a while for it to snowball. I had to be regular every Monday and Thursday. I've never missed one. I've done 140 or whatever straight. Never missed a single one. It's been regular, regular, regular, regular, regular. Not everybody reads every one, but because it's there, now it's snowballing, and this is a very healthy mid-six-figure business now just off the newsletter alone. I think that's what it takes and the creator role is just content. It's like Gary Vee says, you should be leveraging this free, free, what's free now, you know, what people used to have to pay tons of money to reach. Now you can just do it for free and just throw stuff out and be constantly, you should be constantly doing stuff. And I think that's probably the key. Would you agree with that? Ian Sells: Yeah, I think consistency builds trust, right? Keeping true to what your commitment was to that newsletter. You didn't just do it and stop. I mean, 140, I mean, it's impressive what you've done with the newsletter there, you know, and it's packed with good information and, you know, connections and stories. It's fantastic. Yeah, you can't be everything to everybody, right? So like the creators that are trying to pitch dog ice cream and beauty, like they're not authentic, right? They're just trying to make a buck and that becomes evident. The creators, the ones that are doing the best are picking their niches. They know what they're good at. They can become experts at it. And I do think that over time, like this mass rush to making money as an affiliate is going to slow down because it's going to go back to who's actually legitimately an expert at teaching me how to do Makeup, right? I can't like anybody can come up and start making showing women how to do makeup right for a party or whatever. She needs, you know ads. But the people who will eventually build a bigger the bigger business be trusted for it. They will end up winning overall and the other ones, you know, that won't make enough to keep going. Right? And that's the thing. It's like cool. I'm making a hundred bucks this week $200 next week, you know, but if you don't make it past a certain level, you can't go all in on it. And so the ones that Get to that level. They're going to continue to go all in there, become the experts and you know, the rest of people will find something else to make a quick buck on. Kevin King: Now, a quick word from our sponsor, Levanta. Hey, Kevin, tell us a little bit about it. That's right, Amazon sellers. Do you want to skyrocket your sales and boost your organic rankings? Meet Levanta, Norm and I's secret weapon for driving high-quality external traffic straight to our Amazon storefronts using affiliate marketing. That's right. It's achieved through direct partnerships with leading media outlets like CNN, Wirecutter and BuzzFeed, just to name a few, as well as top affiliates, influencers, bloggers, and media buyers, all in Levante's marketplace, which is home to over 5,000 different creators that you get to choose from. So are you ready to elevate your business? Visit get.levanta.io slash misfits. That's get.levanta.io slash misfits and book a call and you'll get up to 20% off Levanta's gold plan today. That's get.levanta.io slash misfits. I'm going to add one more, authority. If you can add becoming an authority. Yeah, exactly what Ian was just saying, authority. Yeah. Then I think that is the final part to this equation. So everything we just talked about plus that... That's where like a makeup artist, if they get on a... Yeah, I was a makeup artist on Avatar or something. That's authority. Or someone in our space in the digital marketing. I'm a New York Times bestseller, Amazon, Kindle bestseller book or whatever. It's establishing that authority. Yeah, I agree with that. Oh my God. Hold it. Can we stop this? Kevin Rocking agreed with something I said. Norm, you get a gold star. I do want to talk about one other thing. That's two, that's right. It's going to go down a slightly different rabbit hole for a sec, but we started talking about this and that's IP and IP compliance and having to understand that. It's on the cellar to understand that. Something happened recently where you take AI and we just talked about these AI commercials and ads. Well, one step further, Again, this is something that's just happened within a few months. Actually, I learned about it when we did our Collective Mind. Thanks, Kev, for the thumbs up. I learned about it on the Collective Minds train trip that we did. And one of the people that we were on the trip with came back and was telling me about they got sued for ADA compliance. And it wasn't a little bit. It was $125,000. So usually it's this blind lady in Florida that will sue you for $10,000. She'll start at $50,000, knock it back to $10,000, and you settle. In this case, it was something completely different. So there was three elements for it. And I can tell you two of them right now. But the one, she had it covered off. She had the ADA plug-in on her website. No problem. But what caught her, what caught her... As Americans with disabilities, I wonder what ADA is. Yeah, and you can get those plugins and every website has to have this. If you don't, you could have a lawsuit. And in the first six months of this year, there was over 6,000 of these lawsuits launched. But this is where she got caught up. She did not say that she was using AI in her chatbot, that it was not a human being. And that's where the 125K came in. So when you're getting into this stuff, if you don't understand, if you don't talk to people about it, if you don't reach out, just don't think you can do it. Going back to just using this IP, you're going to get nailed possibly one way or the other. And by the way, my son goes out with a creator and we talked about this, about the IP component. She says it happens more often than not. So it's pretty incredible that people just are going and using and this is how people make money. The creator, that's their job. And if you're using it without their approval, man, you're asking for it. And same with the chatbot. If you're not putting that little disclaimer on there, you could be looking at a lawsuit. So just wanted to go down a different rabbit hole. I don't know if you guys have anything else to say about that. There's Norm's PSA. I was just wondering, your son, where do they go out? What's that? You said your son goes out with a creator. Where do they go out? Do they go out to the drive-thru? Sometimes they do that. Yeah, sometimes. So, Ian, what are you seeing as the trends right now when it comes to this space? I mean, what are you seeing as the hot thing right now? Is it live? Is it ever going to take off in the U.S. like it has in China? Or is it the A.I., people using a lot of A.I. to give themselves more reach? Or what are you seeing the next big thing that's coming in this space? Ian Sells: Well, I do think that the other channels are going to start rolling out their affiliate creator affiliate programs. I've seen some stuff from Instagram and YouTube. So there's going to be more players in the space because now basically what TikTok figured out how to do is mobilize all their users to help promote e-commerce, right? And that's what the other platforms weren't doing. They were just giving the brands access to selling on the platform. They now have the affiliate network. So that network is important to the growth of the platform. That's one of the reasons why TikTok is doing so well as far as commerce goes. Live selling is hot. I mean, I'm a joint brand with TSP, TikTok service provider, official partner. So they're definitely pushing the lives. And I mean, I just saw one of the top agencies, they just opened We're a live streaming retail store in Hollywood, basically 12 stalls with people. You go into this retail store and instead of touching products, you get to watch infomercial people do infomercials from. On Products Live Online. Kevin King: And it literally is, that's what- You don't just go in the store and grab something and come back to the store? Ian Sells: You don't go in there and grab something. You stand there and watch them describe the products because the thing with lives is you really just do a loop of talking for two or three minutes and then you do it again because people are coming in and out. So it's kind of like an infomercial. Depending on when you tune in, every five minutes it goes to the pitch, right? That's kind of the way infomercials work. So yeah, I think like, is it gonna catch on? I don't know. I mean, when I look at it personally, I'm like, what is this? I don't have time to sit there and listen to somebody pitch me a product all the time. It's like, who goes on vacation going, let's go to a couple of timeshare presentations so we can get a couple of free massages, right? But like, more than one, that's, yeah. I mean, we got to the point where it's like, I'd rather just pay for the massage than like sit through a four hour presentation that, It's actually, when you guys asked to talk about selling, I mean, that's some of the best marketing and sales tactics out there, right? Kevin King: Oh, yeah. Ian Sells: You literally sit there and sell yourself on it. I've done it myself. You know, convince yourself this is a good deal. But yeah, I think affiliates is going to continue. More effective like platforms for marketing are going to, you know, increase in value. So, you know, if Meta is starting to be able to do it in-house, this is the interesting thing. So TikTok, the reason why it's so important and I'm discovering this now is like, it's a closed loop system. So there is no loss of pixel. So it doesn't matter what Apple does or anybody does. If you are running ads or create or promote something and they buy it through TikTok, right? Know 100% who bought that product and what time and all this stuff, right? And what people are like that person. They also know that you view the product page and what other product pages you view. There's no loss of retargeting data, essentially, right? So your feed can be even better because Facebook is just saying, we think this is your customer based on some parameters that our pixel is getting. But like Apple's trying to block all of that stuff, right? The government wants to block the tracking. So they call it a closed system, a closed commerce system. It's all happening in one place, so it's very easy. It's more effective. The ads are more effective. So if Facebook can replicate that, they can drive more sales because they know exactly what the customer is doing versus sending them out to Shopify and then going, I don't know what happened to that customer after they clicked on a couple of pages, right? And so I think that we're going to see more of that closed system, which is what Amazon has as well. I think Amazon is going to get better at this as well. I think affiliates is a huge thing that they're doing it. I think they're probably driving a lot of sales. It just hasn't really felt like a brand can really manipulate it in a way that They can directly correlate and promote that to be their growth driver. But the best creators there are the ones with the consistent stores, the consistent posting, the authenticity, and the expert way of describing products. So yeah, I think we're going to just see more and more of this affiliate style. And I think that TikTok is going to They're going to struggle to become a commerce platform in general because it's not, you know, it's not a full on store. The hard part for brands on TikTok is that they might have success here or there, but they can't repeat it very easily. And so it becomes very difficult for demand planning. So this is where like a customer, you know, of ours has a product go viral. It sells out the order, you know, 10 times as much inventory trying to replicate. It doesn't happen. Now they have 10 times as much inventory and don't have sales. So. Kevin King: I think there's a system though. I mean, we saw a guy, Joe Snow. Josh Snow with Snow Teeth Whitening did $100 million on social media stuff. He's got a system. He sat and explained it. He has a system of actually getting like 50 or 54 or something like that creators, and that's all his system. He doesn't want anybody else out of the system. He wants like up-and-comers, like go-getters that are up-and-coming, and he's got a whole way of incentivizing them. And I think it was one of his dummy brands that's doing, what's it called? Apple cider vinegar and gummies. I forget the name of the brand now. Ian Sells: Goalie. Kevin King: Goalie. Well, they're doing crazy numbers, but they're incentivizing all these guys. If you sell a million dollars of GMV, of gross merchandise value, through your TikTok shop, we'll buy you a Lamborghini. If you do $500,000, we'll give you a free apartment in Miami Beach. If you do $100,000, you get You know, you pick any laptop you want and they're doing all this kind of crazy stuff and it's working. Yeah, and they're making commissions. So what are you seeing people brands having to give affiliates? Like you have all these services like Levanta and Archer affiliates and Stack Influence and all these guys that are out there that are kind of doing what you're doing in a way, but slightly different. What are to get people to actually is it becoming competitive or it's like TikTok has their space affiliate commission, but you've got to like add on top of that, like 20% or 30% or whatever. How competitive is that getting in that space? Ian Sells: Yeah, so every brand wants to get people promoting their products for free in exchange for them getting commissions. Like that's the ultimate holy grail, right? But when people are good at promoting something, you kind of have to pay them. It's like having a good salesperson. Like you can't just say, hey, sell my stuff and I'll give you commission. They want a salary plus commission, right? So it's moving more to that performance model. You know, these promotions that Goalie did, it was to drive awareness and attention of their product. They have a huge budget. They've done this once before with influencer marketing. This is how Goalie came about, right? They were literally everywhere all overnight. So The brands with the bigger budgets can definitely do a lot of damage because they can spend a million or two dollars or two million dollars, right, in order to make, to see if this channel works where like the smaller sellers are dipping their toes in and they're scared to send out a hundred samples to these affiliates, right? So on Joint Brands, you can do the commission plus payment. So you can pay them $100 to $500 plus the video, plus they get to earn commissions at whatever you're offering on TikTok. And so that's like the performance model that I think it's going to be moving towards. We've had that for a while. Snow, Josh Snow, he's one of our customers at Joint Brands. They use us for some parts of their system. And yeah, I mean, he's one of those brands that He grew, you know, his whole thing grew from the viral sensations that he was able to create initially with all the creators and influencers that he got, you know, when they made that mouth whitening thing, right? Very demonstratable product that, you know, produced a real result that people were happy with. And so he builds a great product, a great brand and, but he's able to, you know, Imagine a brand that's doing $5 million of revenue trying to have 46 influencers, how many people you need to have to manage that, the content, the moving in and out. And not only just having 46 influencers, those are 46 influencers who showed success at some level. They probably had 10 times that, right? At least working on the campaign and saying, okay, you are doing good. We're going to work with you on a more consistent basis, but you didn't do good. So we're not going to work with you again. You don't get any more money. Kevin King: I know some people too, to get things like you're saying earlier, you had people that did something and it went viral and they sold all their inventory so they went and bought more and then just went crickets. I know some people that are doing like, a strategy for some of the smaller guys is choose an audience of like, get like five influencers to do something on your product or creators to do something on your product. And then the ones that work, or maybe you get 10 and then the five that are the best, then you put some ad revenue behind it and you just target a small group of like 5,000 people. And so these 5,000 people are starting to see five different creators constantly in their feed talking about the same product in different ways. And they're like, what the heck is everybody's talking about this? And you just slowly raise that 5,000 to 10,000 to 20,000 to 50,000, 100,000. And you can get something to actually start snowballing in a lot of cases. Have you seen anybody do something similar to that? I've heard a couple people do that. Ian Sells: We definitely promote the strategy of like, you need levels of content. So like you need your ground floor, like just spray and pray. You need like lots of people posting content about your brand so that you create an awareness layer. An audience layer to your TikTok account, for instance, because TikTok is actually watching how many videos are getting posted by your brand, hashtags, comments, all that stuff. And so it helps you go viral later if you have people that have a, consider it your warm audience, right? They've been exposed through another creator to your video. And then you're gonna go after like the mid-tier people who are, you know, you're gonna probably pay anywhere from 50 to $100 to make a video and post about you. Those are the creators who can produce a higher quality video. They may have an audience. They may have a niche. And then you're gonna go to people that are like influencers, right? You're gonna pay them up to like 500 or $1,000 per video. But they have an audience and they're hopefully able to get you more awareness. But no top creator is going to jump on your product if they don't see a hundred videos already posted about it and they don't see a thousand sales on your TikTok shop. You need to create that so that the other creators, the good ones, and the other affiliates that are good and they know what they're doing, they're going to jump on the trends because they want to ride the wave. This TikTok moves in a trend format. So it's looking like, they tell us like it's like kind of week over week data so that they can spot trends quickly. So, you know, if your video gets, every video gets exposed, no matter what, to like 300 or so people, right? And if those people interact, engage, or watch for a certain amount of time, it gets exposed to the next layer of people. And then again, the next layer of people, it's like, it's a step-by-step process. Cause they're trying to see if this is a good video and it's engaging and it's going all the way through. Yeah, like you need to be able to do all the different levels of that marketing funnel. It's just like any funnel and you can't just come at the top and be like, I'm going to pay the top creators because then it's not enough content for the system to go. Okay. This is a really hot product. Everybody's talking about it. There's just a few people. It's not going to, you know, have the same weight most likely. Kevin King: Are you looking to quickly boost new Amazon product launches or scale up existing listings to reach first page positioning? The influencer platform Stack Influence can help. That's right. Stack Influence pushes high volume external traffic sales straight to Amazon listings using micro influencers that you only have to pay with your products. They've helped up-and-coming brands like Magic Spoon compete with Cheerios for top category positioning while also helping Fortune 500 brands like Unilever launch their new products. Unknown Speaker: Right now is one of the best times to get started with Stack Influence. You can sign up at stackinfluence.com or click the link in this video down in the description or notes below and mention Misfits, that's M-I-S-F-I-T-S, to get 10% off your first campaign. Stackinfluence.com. Kevin King: I think that's a great model for most of us, most of the micro brands that are selling out there. But there was a guy on my podcast, he's back a couple years ago, Yosef Martin. Do you know him? Have you ever heard of him? Ian Sells: I think so. Kevin King: So this guy has a completely different business model when it comes to creators and influencers. He has high-end premium beauty products. It was called BoxyCharm. So it was a subscription-based box that you would get. And it ended up that a couple of high-end creators actually started buying the product, not even like seeking him out because his product was so good. But then he decided that all he was going to do was go to high-end creators. And he, like Kardashians, used his product. All he did is he went high-end, he went celebrity, and he did no PPC. He did no other types of ads. It was strictly influencer-based. And he, after four years, sold that company, BoxyCharm, for $500 million to Ipsy, all based on influencers slash creators. So if you got the money, you know, that's a whole other way of doing it. Ian Sells: And that is the proliferation of the creator-led brands. You know, look at Prime, right? Look at, you know, the candy bars. You know, these strategies of having somebody with a huge audience promoting products can drive a lot of value quickly, but it has to be authentic for the most part. And like that Kardashian stuff, you don't hear about anymore because it stopped working, right? They were doing too many promotions and everybody knew that everything was a paid promotion. So, you know, there is a good time for everything. But yeah, so Mr. Beast, right? He's creating, you know, $100 million brands out of thin air, right? Every time he touches a brand, because he has the distribution channels and the audience and awareness and he's providing good product. He cares about, if you hear his talk, you know, it's like he cared about the quality of the ingredients of the chocolate bar. It was not just create a chocolate bar, it's create a better chocolate bar. And that's what he did. So yeah, there's that opportunity. But for the most people, joint brands have the ability to help you get TikToks done by hundreds of creators, if not thousands, within days, not months and years for $25 a piece. We have the bottom of the funnel. We have the middle of the funnel and the top of the funnel. And that's kind of like how we're trying to help brands like build this up. But it's not like it's shots on goal. It's not just like, hey, I bought a video. It didn't work. That's not how this works. You got to start to build that awareness traffic and funnel and also seed TikTok with video content that talks about your brand because the algorithm is learning About your brand, you know, it's very hard unless somebody can come in and steer so much attention, right? Because TikTok is all about how long they can get you to stay on their platform and watch content and how many views of content you're watching and engaging with. Kevin King: I know like on LinkedIn, a personal LinkedIn profile is nine times more effective than a business profile. So you can have a business profile on LinkedIn and your reach is going to be far less than if you have a personal profile. Does this work the same way on YouTube? Facebook and Instagram and the other social platforms. Ian Sells: Yeah. And also people want to follow people. They don't want to follow brands. They're just getting corporate marketing messages. I mean, I love Nike, right? But if I follow theirs, this would be corporate lingo. But if I was following the head of marketing from Nike, I might get some cool insights and some things that are unique. Kevin King: Elon Musk, his followers far outweigh Tesla, for example. Ian Sells: Yeah. And they trust him more because it's his voice, authentic. That's what's happening now. We can be connected to any influencer, any celebrity. You can follow what they're saying. If they want to create a brand, you'll know about it. They don't need to use paid media necessarily if they have an audience. And so everybody should be building an audience of some sort if they have a If they want to get a job, right, like, hey, I'm available. I'm the best in marketing. Hire me today. If you can say that on your personal Twitter page or your LinkedIn or YouTube shorts, you might get a job if other people are following you that are marketing people. They're like, oh, my company is looking for someone just like you, right, versus paying a headhunter and doing all these things. So it does. Kevin King: What about when you're doing that, though, you're creating these audiences, but you're creating them on rented ground. You don't own those audiences. I mean, you could be Mr. Beast could be shut off overnight. I'm sure he's got some things in the background that he's protecting himself, but you know, he's got 354 million followers or whatever the crazy number is, 73, whatever it is, it's way up there. But you look at Trump, you know, when he got banned off of X a while back, they can shut you down overnight. So what's a creator that spent all this time and energy building up an audience and building up everything? What are they to do to protect themselves? Ian Sells: I mean, this is a huge issue that's happening, right? What if TikTok gets banned? All of these creators that have built... Boom, they're gone, right? I mean, you know, same on Amazon. You build a $50 million brand and you get shut down. It's like, what can you do? So yeah, there's a huge risk when you're building on other people's platforms, right? To either get cut out or to get removed. And so, yeah, I mean, they need to build their other channels. They need to diversify and that's what Mr. Beast is doing, is diversifying his, you know, his investments, right? He's not putting all of his capital back into, you know, the same channel, right? He's doing lots of other things and production, all that stuff. Yeah, they need to be careful. This is, you know, while it's good, right? I mean, one reason why TikTok is growing so much is TikTok is giving everybody, consumers, free money and huge discounts that they're subsidizing to spend money on the platform. Kevin King: Yeah. Ian Sells: If that drives up, is TikTok really even a channel? I don't know. I hope it is. But like, maybe it's to incentivize. And that's the only reason why it's having success. You know, they're trying to kickstart the platform. Timu is spending billions of dollars trying to enter our markets, right, with cheap products. So, yeah, it's a challenge to own these channels that are producing revenue. And, you know, definitely email is something that you can control as your own, you know, portal. But, yeah, there's, you know. Kevin King: Yeah, you should be getting every creator or every brand that's using creators should be to have something in that funnel to actually capture an email address or a physical address or both or a telephone number. Are all three of those ideally, but at least one of those, because with those you can port it. If you get banned on TikTok, if TikTok goes down, And I've got a million followers and I've got at least a hundred thousand of them that have given me their email address or their phone number to get received texts. You got to offer value for them to give this and not abuse it. But then I can at least port that to whatever the TikTok replacement is or whatever or over to Facebook and hopefully have a running start of some sort or have a chance that That's something I think a lot of people are overlooking, both brands. And creators. So from a brand's perspective, though, platforms like join brands, you could that's you're joining brands with creators. That's the name of the whole thing. But a lot of people try to do it themselves and they do all this outreach. And I see people, you know, send a thousand freaking outreaches and, you know, you get five people respond back, say, I'll do your product. And now there's this whole a lot of the top creators are not even the top. I'm not talking about the Kardashians, but the The decent creators, they say, I don't want to mess with all this. I'm going to hire an agency. Let them vet everything and go all through the agency. Is that kind of what you're doing with joint brands? Are you vetting the people on the other side to make sure they have decent products or it's just a connection? Let them filter themselves out? Ian Sells: We definitely do a level of vetting. We do let in a lot of creators. We don't know how many creators What type of creator you're going to need for your campaign. In order to get approved to do campaigns, you have to submit a test video or a test image, whatever campaign type. Certifications that creators have to get in order to do different job types. So every job type has a certification, essentially. So you can't do videos unless you've basically proven that you can record a video, you know, the camera's facing the right way, the logos look fine, the quality of the audio, the quality of your scene is good enough to get through that process. And then basically it's up to the brands to audit And talk to the creators and make sure that they get the content that they want. So we don't do it for you. We do have a done for you system for bigger brands that want to spend a lot of money. We can manage the system for them. For the most part, we're a self-service platform where you get to see the portfolio. You get to see their TikTok account. Saves you the hassle of doing all the outreach, doing all the samples and all that stuff. You're going to get people who are ready to work and willing to do it and do it on a time frame that you control versus you send somebody a sample. You say, hey, let's work together. Okay, cool. I'll send you something. Then they go, okay, I'm out of town right now, this and that and that. Right in the end that goes to is what happens a lot of times. So with joining brands, you know, there's a way that we keep them accountable to the jobs and they get rated and reviewed. So other people will see, hey, this person didn't deliver on time or this person did a terrible content. I would not hire again. So kind of like the upward fiber style, like everybody gets rated and reviewed by the people who use them. Kevin King: You know, if you think that you're not going to get shut down if you're an influencer, big time influencer, and you're not going to get shut down off of these platforms. Amazon last year, mid-year, suspended around, I believe it was 10,000 influencers, but the number one influencer for Amazon, the number one person Suspended. Gone. And that's how fast it can happen. And I think that's why it's so important that you do have these other channels or websites or whatever you do. But I wanted to ask, have you heard, today I heard about this for the first time. I haven't checked it out. I downloaded the app. What not? Ian Sells: What not? Kevin King: Yeah. No, it's, it's one of the fastest growing apps on the Apple marketplace. And what it's, it's simulates more similar, uh, Chinese style, um, uh, selling where it's 15 seconds, 15 seconds, 15 seconds. It's kind of a combination of vine and tick tock. Yeah. It's kind of interesting because when I first heard about it today, it's like there's possibilities for all these new platforms to expand. And it's going to happen. It happened with Walmart and Amazon. You think nobody's going to get any bigger. And then you take a look at TikTok, what they've done and expanded. But I think you've got to be on the cutting edge and you've always got to be that innovator looking for those new outlets. And what app could possibly be one of those outlets? And I guess, you know, just as a seller, you just got to keep looking out because that might be your pot of gold. Ian Sells: Yeah, I mean definitely there's every day something new, some new shiny object to chase. I guess the question is... Is it just marketing that's making us think that? And is it really a valuable thing to your business? Or would you be better off just focusing on what you're really good at, your channel that you're really good at, right? It's like in marketing, like you can't do every channel and do, you know, like they say, nail one channel first before you move on to the next one. Don't just try to do 12 channels at once because you'll be spread too thin and you won't know what works and you're not putting enough effort into making it work, right? So yeah, it's always the cat 22. Should you expand off Amazon? Should you take a TikTok product that's successful and turn it into a brand or just create more viral quick wins on TikTok, right? And so this is the conundrum that we're always in is where does our attention go and how big is our team and how much money do we have to spend and where can we be most effective? Kevin King: Hey, Kevin King and Norm Farrar here. If you've been enjoying this episode of Marketing Misfits, thanks for listening this far. Continue listening. We've got some more valuable stuff coming up. Be sure to hit that subscribe button if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast player, or if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify, make sure you subscribe to our channel because you don't want to miss a single episode of The Marketing Misfits. Have you subscribed yet, Norm? Well, this is an old guy alert. Should I subscribe to my own podcast? Yeah, but what if you forget to show up one time and it's just me on here? You're not gonna know what I say. I'll buy you a beard and you can sit in my chair too. We'll just, you can go back and forth with one another. Unknown Speaker: Yikes! Kevin King: But that being said, don't forget to subscribe, share it. Oh, and if you really like this content, somewhere up there, there's a banner. Click on it and you'll go to another episode of The Marketing Misfits. Unknown Speaker: Make sure you don't miss a single episode because you don't want to be like Norm. Kevin King: What do you think is going to happen with TikTok? What do you think? Unknown Speaker: I mean, what? Ian Sells: I mean, I think that, you know, I mean, I'd love for Amazon to buy it. That'd be pretty cool. Then all of a sudden we have this ability to really integrate, you know, shopping and commerce and stuff. And they, they need a social platform and theirs is not even close to it. Right. But yeah, I think, I don't think it will get shut down. There's too much invested in it. There's too much going on. But you know, if it does, let's talk about what happens if it does, right? Like what happens if it does get banned? What, where does everybody go, right? Kevin King: They go to Meta and YouTube, like you said, that's doing, getting ready for this affiliate marketing and stuff. Ian Sells: Essentially. So I mean, I do think that, you know, all those people, the attention will just go elsewhere. People will scroll somewhere else, right? Kevin King: Why do you think Amazon has failed so badly when it comes to like Inspire and Live and everything? They just can't get it right. Ian Sells: I mean, for one, I think they put it all in one app, right? I think that's a confusing thing like for consumers, like if they had just made a social selling platform, you know, separate. Like, that could have been better. But yeah, I just don't know how much time or energy they're putting into it because they have the opportunity to make it amazing. I even had, potentially, Joint Brands was going to be a huge client or customer for them. Amazon influencer team was like, okay, hey, oh, wow, you guys have like this many influencers. Get them to do, you know, Amazon videos for us and then, you know, oh, we're waiting for approval and then this and that so, you know, months go by, okay, we change our game plan. So you never know, right, what's actually happening there, but yeah, I don't know why they can't be successful, but, you know, there's always first mover advantage and the inertia is with TikTok right now. Kevin King: Okay, it looks like we're coming up to the top of the hour. So, Ian, at the end of every podcast, we ask our misfit if they know a misfit. You're the misfit. Ian Sells: Well, we have an event coming up called MDS Inspire around Prosper and a friend of mine Who also owns a DTC community and does a lot of marketing. Nick Shackleford. Nick should be speaking at our event. I think he's incredible at marketing. He knows what he's doing. He's taken all of his life's agency work. I've been watching him for a while and they just built a huge brand called Brez. We always argue how you say it, but functional mushroom, you know, basically a drink for, you know, going out and stuff like that and just around the house. So love the product and I think he's great at marketing. So if you could get that misfit on here, that would be pretty cool. Kevin King: Oh, that's fantastic. We will reach out. Your contact information, how can people get a hold of you? Ian Sells: Yeah, I think the best way to get ahold of me is through LinkedIn. Follow me on LinkedIn. I post a lot of content there about marketing as well and what I'm doing for million-dollar sellers or joint brands, the two businesses I focus the most on. We are all about being authentic, helping you guys grow and bringing solutions to the industry in different ways. Kevin King: All right, Ian. So I'm going to remove you right now. We'll get back to you in a second, but thanks for coming on. Ian Sells: Thanks, guys. Super fun. Kevin King: Thanks, man. All right, are you okay? You cool down? I'm all right. Got it all out of your system. Yeah, it's hot. Fighting this damn cold. But, you know, money never sleeps, so you got to constantly do what you got to do and enjoy these talks. Enjoy talking shop with people like Ian. You know, go back and he knows what he's doing in the influencer creator space or GC as some people call it. Yeah. And you know, what's cool about Ian is he's been able to surround himself with incredible people like through MDS, you know, all these million dollar sellers and you know, these events that he has, I don't know about you, but his events are incredible. And if you get a chance, so if anybody's in the Amazon space, you'll hear about these MDS events once in a while. I think last year was prior to Prosper, but go, go, because you'll learn probably as much or way more than if you go to some of these other shows. Yeah, they do a couple of events. They do their own private. So if you're in their group, they have an event that I think the last one was in Denver. And I'm not sure where it is in 2025, but in 2024, last year, it was in Denver, and they share a lot of stuff. And like you just said, I saw the guy that does the chocolates, Oliver, speak last year at that event, talk about how he's doing, he has like $20 million selling his second chocolates and how he's starting the rules to be able to actually advertise his stuff, even though it's kind of an adult product. It was interesting. So by going to those type of events, it's You don't have to be an Amazon seller per se. You can be selling anything in e-commerce and get a lot of value. So Ian's always bringing good value to the space and good people. And the biggest thing, of course, is he smokes cigars. That's right. He's a cigar smoker. So when we're in Vegas in March, we're going to have to hit Ian up and go take him to one of our new favorite places. Unknown Speaker: Cigar bars, yes. Kevin King: Cigar jackets. Ah, yes, of course. The cigar jackets that we have now that have our names on them and everything. It's like we're official. Showcase at Times Square. That's right, exactly. All right, sir. So I think this is coming to an end. Uh, yeah, but, uh, it's, it's not the end because I'll see you again next week. But in the meantime, how do people follow us or what do they got to do? Easiest way is you can go to YouTube. We have Marketing Misfits, or you can go to your favorite podcast, uh, platform and Marketing Misfits. And guess what? You can go to our website, marketingmisfits.com. Nice to see you, Norm. You know this stuff. All right. All right. OK, so that's it for today. We'll see everybody next week. Ciao. Ciao.