Kevin King's Direct Marketing Secrets for eCommerce Dominance

Kevin King's Direct Marketing Secrets for eCommerce Dominance Kevin King: It's about relationships. Why do people go to Amazon and buy? Why is that the first place? Because there's a relationship. They know that they're going to get the product in a day or two if they're prime. They know that if there's a problem, it's easy to return. They know it's a quick and simple process. There's a trust there. You don't have that. You're Johnny Brand selling whatever. You don't have that trust. You've got to build that trust and just selling one-off stuff off of Amazon is not going to build that trust. Jason Boyce: Welcome to the Day 2 podcast where we give you the unfiltered truth to launch, grow and protect your brand on Amazon and beyond. Welcome to the Day 2 podcast. Today's episode, direct marketing, eCommerce and Amazon legend, Kevin King joins me to talk about how things have changed and how they will evolve in the future. I'm Jason Boyce, founder and CEO of Avenue7 Media and host of the Day 2 podcast. With me today is Kevin King, who's been in direct marketing and eCommerce since 1989. Kevin was one of the first on the Amazon marketplace and has extensive experience with cutting edge strategies and is a true educator in our field. Just a few of the things Kevin has accomplished, but not by any means the full list. He created the Billion Dollar Seller Newsletter. The number one course for Amazon sellers called Freedom Ticket with over 160,000 students. He founded and hosts the Billion Dollar Seller Summit, the industry's most elite. He hosts the AM PM podcast for Amazon and eCommerce sellers, formerly hosted by Manny Coats of Helium 10. And Kevin is a keynote speaker and he's been featured in USA Today, Wall Street Journal and wait for it, Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous. Kevin. What was it like to meet Robin Leach first and foremost? Kevin King: I actually didn't meet him. I met one of his other people on that. I was an expert in a show. I wasn't the actual feature of the show, but I was actually an expert on a topic that they were doing a show on. Jason Boyce: Awesome. I love it. I remember that show fondly and that great accent from Robin Leach. Of all of the very long list of accomplishments you have, my favorite was being on Lifestyles of the Week. Kevin King: I thought it would be being on the Day 2 podcast. Jason Boyce: Well, that's your next best, right? Kevin King: That's the crowning achievement. I finally made it here. Jason Boyce: Well, thank you, Kevin. I appreciate that. Welcome to the show and how are you doing today? Kevin King: I'm alive and kicking, man. Every day above ground is a good day, right? Jason Boyce: I love it. I love it. Kevin, you bring a wealth of experience in e-commerce and selling things. Take us back to the very first thing you ever sold, if you even remember it. What was the first thing you sold and how did you sell it? Kevin King: Yeah, first thing I sold, I was about three or four years old, was bubble gum to neighborhood kids. I have my mom take me to the, I think it's called Gibson's. This is before we had Walmart, a little West Texas town called Brownwood and I'd buy, I think it was a penny for the, it's a bubble gum that had on the wrapper, you might go back long enough to remember this, and they had cartoons on the wrapper when you unfolded it and you chew it and it'd be a sugar blast for about three seconds and it'd just be like chewing rubber after that. But I would buy those for a penny and sell them for a nickel to the neighborhood kids. I'd set up a little store in the garage and have my I have 10 pieces of bubblegum or 20 pieces of bubblegum laid out and I take an old oatmeal can, Quaker oatmeal came like this little like cardboard. Jason Boyce: Yeah, a little cap on it. Kevin King: Cap on it and I turn those into a drum with some sticks and you can buy a drum or you can buy some bubblegum. So I think that's my first entrepreneurial venture. Must have been three or four years old. Jason Boyce: Amazing. Okay, I thought you were gonna start at like 12, maybe 15. Three or four, Kevin. All right, what was next then? Now you got me. You got me hooked now. How did the bubblegum business evolve into what it is today? Kevin King: Well, from there, I'm sure I sold a whole bunch of other stuff, but I know I sold stamps and coins in the back of little collector's magazines. I've mowed yards. I painted street numbers on curbs. I picked up aluminum cans and bottles off the side of the road and I'd go raid the soccer fields after a tournament. I'd go dumpster diving and pick all those up. I was making so much money when I was like 11 or 12. Back then, this was in the 80s, late 70s, early 80s, I guess, late 70s, early 80s. I was making so much money, my parents made me save half of it. A 12-year-old making $200 a week is too much money. So, they made me save half of it and I didn't know where that was going but it ended up to be in my college spending money. So, when I was in college, my dad paid for my college but he said, I'm going to give you a spending allowance for beer and you know, he didn't say beer but that's what it was for. It was for beer and pizza and whatever and that money that I had saved was that What's that money? So I spent my own money to party on in college. I made when I was like 12 years old. But yeah, I take 13 or 14. I listen to the Billboard Top 40, Casey Kasem's Top 40 Countdown. Take notes because I couldn't get to the library to see the Billboard charts. This is before the internet or anything. And then I go to school and say, here's the top 40 songs or albums or whatever this week. Anybody want to buy Queen's Another One Bites the Dust? And people would put in their order. I had to get my mom to drive me down to the record store because I was 13, 14. It's about 30 minutes away. Once a week, I pick up some albums, come back and sell them, mark them up about three bucks and sell them to the kids at school. I've been an entrepreneur my whole life. I'm in my 50s now. I haven't worked for anybody since I was about 20 years old, 19, 20 years old. I never had a corporate job. I don't even know how to fill out W2. I never made a resume other than for a class in college. I never sent a resume to anybody. I just got on LinkedIn a couple of months ago. Not to try to get jobs or anything but more just to network. I worked at McDonald's and I delivered pizzas. I worked briefly at a deli for a couple of months slicing ham and cheese. That's the extent of my work for somebody else ever in my life. Jason Boyce: You were literally born an entrepreneur. Kevin King: I was. Jason Boyce: Let's talk about the direct marketing stuff. Now, obviously, it's almost like that record business was almost a drop ship business. You got your orders first, you got your receivables, and then you knew exactly what to buy, so you got that figured out at a very early age. Tell us a little bit about your direct marketing experience. When did you get involved in that? What did you like about it? Kevin King: Yeah, the first taste of that would be selling stamps and coins in the back of, I don't remember the names of the magazines, a little stamp collector magazine or something. And the back will be little classified ads. It says I got by an assortment of, I don't remember what it was, 30 different stamps from African countries or something, you know, for two bucks in the SACE self-addressed stamped envelope. For those of you younger ones listening, that means you give the envelope with a stamp on it with your address already on it. So all I got to do is stick it in the envelope and send it back. I don't got to Stand in line at the post office or pay anything. That's called a SACE. That was popular in high school. I taught myself. My parents bought one of the very first MS-DOS computers. It was a Xerox computer. I think it was my sophomore year of high school or maybe junior year of high school. I remember one summer I taught myself. I just played on this thing and taught myself basic. This was, you know, I had floppy drives, big five and a quarter inch floppy drives, and I taught myself the basic computing language. When I got to college, there was a sophomore level class called BANA, BANA stands for Business Analytics, BANA 217 that all business majors at Texas A&M had to take. There's probably 800, 900, maybe 1,000 students taking in a business school, and there's three or four different professors that taught it, but for whatever reason, when they did the exams during the semester, Professors would organize the exams to be all on the same day. So they would say, okay, these are the dates on this Thursday. Whatever, September 30th and on November 7th and on December 10th are going to be the exams no matter who your professor was. I started off just tutoring. I put up little signs around the university and people would tear off my number and call me and say, hey, I need some help learning how to do this basic computing language and I do one-on-one. It quickly grew to where I got too many people so I started doing one-on-three, one-on-five, started renting rooms in the library. I run a conference room, one on eight, and it grew so big that I ended up renting out a ballroom at the Hilton Hotel and charging $15 a head and getting 400 people to come in there right before each exam. So I'd make $6,000 or more. Sometimes I'd make as much as $10,000. Sometimes I got 700 or 800 people after the war got out. And I just spent two and a half, I had my own study system that I made and I teach them what they needed to know to pass the test. It's like a SAT prep or something. And I did that for like three years. So I was making a lot of money. So I was You're in college, you know, so we had the nicest stereo. We had the nicest, coolest parties. Our house, I was with three other guys. Our apartment was like the movie Animal House. We partied six nights a week and took Tuesdays off because that was Blockbuster new release day on VHS to see the latest movies. And so I wanted to learn how to be a bartender because we're drinking as college kids do, but I wasn't 21 yet, so I couldn't actually I learned to mix with the regular alcohol. I had to go and I took a class. It's just using colored water basically and here's how to make a rum and coke and here's how to make these different ones. So I went out and I had the money. I went out and bought a bar and bought all these alcohol, you know, a thousand bucks, 2000 bucks of alcohol. So of course our place became even more popular with that. And then I started basically funding the parties and I was like, this ain't right. People should be paying their way, chipping in. So I wrote a little program in basic computer language on an Apple IIe computer. And that Apple IIe computer would keep bar tabs. It had all the recipes of different drinks. So someone said some esoteric drink. I'm like, oh, here's how to make it. It's three parts this, two parts this, a splash of this. And then I made it so it would keep bar tabs. And then I decided, you know what, I could sell this. So there's a Computer World magazine. And so I took out an ad in the back, in the classified section, I think, maybe a little tiny display ad for a couple hundred bucks and said, hey, get the Ushoes. It was called the Ushoes Bartender. And I used the university computers to print off my manuals because they had laser printers. Laser printers back then were like four grand. Jason Boyce: Yeah. Kevin King: Something. So I used it and I got in trouble for that. But that was my first venture into direct marketing. And I also did in college a coupon book. So I would go to all the pizza places, the Kinko's Copies, the dry cleaning places, any hamburger places and get them to give me a coupon, buy a burger, get free fries with this coupon. At the beginning of the semester, I would go and I would get the mailing list of all the students at the university because in Texas, it's public information. I did the same thing for those computer classes. I would get all the students taking that class and send them a flyer in the mail announcing my teaching dates. I would send this coupon book out. It just evolved from there into more and more direct marketing. I started a company called the College Lifestyle Company. I hired an ad agency. We did a 16 or 24 page full color catalog of I was 21 years old. I was flying to Chicago to the big markets, gift markets or whatever and looking for stuff that people might want in a college room like little Nerf basketballs you can put over the door to shoot at or little college refrigerators or little t-shirts or little neon beer sign lights or whatever. Yeah, we did a whole catalog with that and I set up 800 numbers that was coming into a room of my apartment. I hired a couple of girls to answer this 800 number and I advertised in the back of all the – back then to register for universities, you would get a book in the mail. Back then, it's before the internet, you would get like a printed book and would have here's all the classes and each class had a code and you would call an 800 number for the university or a local number and say, I want to register for – and you punch in the phone, I want 77322, I want this one and whatever. And you could advertise in those all over the United States for different universities, so I'd advertise in that. And then I did stuff with care packages in college where we would get the list of different kids at different universities and send out something to their parents right before Valentine's and right before finals. Take care of little Johnny. He's stressed out studying for finals. Send him this care package. We have a junk care package and we have a healthy one and we go to Sam's Club and buy all this stuff and assemble these care packages of granola bars and candy bars and juices and whatever and then drive around Texas to different universities and hand deliver them. I did a lot of crazy stuff so that's where my direct marketing And that evolved into another magazine and a whole bunch of other stuff and a whole collectible business that I ran for many years and then eventually into Amazon. So I was well trained in all the sourcing and direct marketing and everything before I ever got into Amazon. Jason Boyce: Whoa, that's a lot of stuff. Kevin King: That's just a touch of it. Jason Boyce: Right? That's unbelievable. The irony about the classes that you were making six grand a class on, What I've learned is that you probably got the best grade in the class because you're teaching it and you learn it better that way. Kevin King: So you didn't have any… Well, I'd already taken it. Yeah, I got it. Jason Boyce: Okay. Kevin King: Yeah, I'd already taken it but I placed out of it. Professors actually didn't like me because they kept trying to change the way they were doing it because I was making them look bad. In their mind, if all of our students are going there to learn, They would badmouth me. They'd go, don't go to that. It's gonna be a waste of time. You're not gonna learn anything you didn't learn from me. And they would keep coming. So obviously I was doing something right that the teachers weren't doing. Jason Boyce: It's pretty incredible. Most young people go to college so that they could get an education and learn a job and then go get married, have their 2.1 kids and have a dog. You went there and turned it into your entrepreneurial playground, Kevin. Kevin King: It was. Jason Boyce: It's pretty incredible. What a great story. Kevin King: I think my senior year, we had a class that we had to do an audit. It was a contest. Blockbuster Video sponsored it with a I think a $5,000 cash prize. Our teacher would assign us in the marketing school groups of four and we had to go pick a business and audit that business and say, what will we do? Basically a full-on audit as if, you know, what are they doing right? What are they doing wrong? And write a big report. And the other three, I just finally told them like, look, y'all are useless. Just let me do it. And so I just went and did it and we won. It was a big reward ceremony and everything. It was definitely my playground. Jason Boyce: You were definitely born with the capitalist gene, Kevin. It's a secret superpower. Pretty incredible. For any of our younger listeners, if even a quarter of these stories are happening to you, there's a place for you in eCommerce. Let's talk about that now, Kevin. You're doing things in catalogs and magazines, direct marketing, really inventing ways. Kevin King: I still do it today. I just came back from a trip to Australia. These are envelopes that come in the mail with checks and money orders in them. Jason Boyce: Come on. Kevin King: Written out to my company. But it still exists and everybody thinks everything's online. It's not. There's still a huge market offline and I marry the two of them together. Jason Boyce: I love it. We're going to get to that in a minute and especially when we talk about email marketing in a minute. So you have all of these amazing experiences just from your entrepreneurial mind inventing these ways to make money and then somewhere along the line in the 90s, Kevin, this thing called the internet pops up. When you first saw the internet, what did you think and how did you, I can only imagine what happened to your brain when you realized that this internet thing was popping up and that you could make money on it. Tell us a little bit about some of your first eCom ventures. Kevin King: Yeah, when I was in college, we had access to I don't forget what it was called. We could go into this computer lab and we could – there's these consoles and we could – I remember I had a computer lab. We could talk to – on these chats to like some other university. It's super basic. And I remember when AOL came out and you could log on to AOL and you could see the newspaper from Charlotte, North Carolina or something. I'm like, wow, this is cool. And you're on a little dial-up modem. So I was involved in some of that. I've always had a computer in my life. In college, I was using the Mac SE or whatever. I'm doing PageMaker, which is now Quark, which is now Adobe Design. It's a big one in the space now, but I was doing all kinds of design and layouts and brochures and everything. I was doing all my own stuff. I didn't have a design team or graphics people. I was doing all my own stuff, designing my own catalogs, everything. I remember my first touch of the internet was 1994, of the modern day internet. I remember I was working. I needed a logo and I didn't know how to cut the back and make it transparent. For whatever reason, I couldn't get it to go transparent. Now, it's a matter of just like that. I needed to be transparent so I could float on something. I had a buddy in town I owned a graphic design agency and I called him and I said, hey, I'm gonna bring you by a floppy disk with my logo on it. Can you just have one of your guys fix it real quick for me? He's like, no, just email it to me. I was like, what? What do you mean email it to you? He's like, just email it to me. I was like, how do you do that? And he's like, well, just set up this account. I don't even remember what it was. And just attach it and send it to me and we'll send it right back. You don't have to drive over here. I was like, oh, you can do that? So that was my first taste and then from there, I started developing a website, I think in 1995. Yeah, I got on this Alta Vista, it was Lycos, it was Yahoo, there's a handful, Google didn't exist. There's a handful of others and it was so easy to game the SEO system. You just would, whatever you put in your title, you rank number one, whatever you put in your little description below the title, your meta tags. Or you could fill in the bottom of the page and with all these keywords and then just change the color to white to match the background color of white and you'd index immediately for everything. I was gaming all that driving people to a website. Later on we had a membership website, but I was selling calendars, DVDs. I had a whole catalog business where we had about 200 different SKUs, mostly collector cards. I dealt with pretty girls on collector cards. I had a business where we actually made some ourselves and then we went out to everybody else. It was a hot business. Around the time Beanie Babies became hot, In the 90s, baseball cards with pretty girls on them became hot. So it could be the Hawaiian Tropic Bikini Team. It could be the Playboy Playmates. It could be some strip club in Florida. It could be whatever. It became a huge business and people were collecting these and paying big money for them. So we became the biggest distributor of that and the number one company and created a catalog and I was running mailing list. I was going out and getting the mailing list of cigar aficionado, cigar was around there, but cigar trader magazine and running their mailing list. I was advertising in these catalog of catalogs and doing all kinds of direct marketing stuff to build up a list of buyers. Then I saw the internet. I was like, holy cow, I don't have to spend three bucks a lead anymore. I can just throw up an AltaVista website and get all these people onto my list. So that was my first and that evolved into I run a newsletter with 250,000 people a day, getting it in the late 90s, early 2000s, getting on Howard Stern, blowing up our servers. Jason Boyce: Okay, stop. Howard Stern, you were on Howard Stern? Kevin King: I personally wasn't, but we had some of our, I was there in the green room four or five times with some of our models went on Howard Stern. Jason Boyce: Got it. Kevin King: You can see some of the stuff on, if you Google on YouTube, if you look, not Google on YouTube, Google is YouTube, go to YouTube and search for Katia Corvo, K-A-T-I-A-C-O-R-R-I-V-E-A-U, Howard Stern. You'll see one of our shows. It's on YouTube. Our girls didn't do the crazy stuff. Howard Stern back then was known for some They would go on, but this girl, she went on and she was one of our cover models on one of our magazines and she went on and Howard tried to get her to strip down and she wouldn't do it, but finally they convinced her, well, if you put on a bikini, well, you put on a bikini and she's like, no, no, no, I'm not going to put on a bikini. They're like, well, and she flipped it. She's like, well, if I have to get in my underwear, you have to get in your underwear. So she made their whole studio get in their underwear and eat entertainment television. She was filming it back then. We'll get plugs on that and it'll blow up our freaking servers and we got so many leads for our newsletter, so many leads for everything. Every time we put someone on there, we literally had to have someone flipping. This is when he was on terrestrial radio, not on satellite. So he had a huge syndicated audience, much bigger than he has now. It was crazy. It was crazy times. Jason Boyce: You immediately saw the promise of the internet because you understood that customers mattered, lists mattered. Kevin King: I've always been list matters. Owning the list is the number one thing. Owning the customer is the number one thing and the distribution channel. Having a catalog or having your own distribution is important too. In the early days, Our newsletter was doing well. We had USA Today come to us. Mark Cuban, when he started HDNets and wanted HD programming in 2003, I think it was, 2004, somewhere around in there, he came to us. I used to do something for traffic back in the 90s with a site called BOMIS, B-O-M-I-S, and it was a ring site. So before Google existed, a lot of times you're just kind of, it's kind of like TikTok. It's a good analogy to TikTok. TikTok now you just scroll through a feed and it kind of shows you what's next, what's next, what's next. But it used to be websites that were like that and they were called ring sites. So you land on one ring site and now at the bottom was like a previous or next button and you just kind of go in a circle and you know, it's next, next, next, next. Kind of the same as scrolling on social media now. And one of them was called BOMAS and they featured jokes, they featured pretty girls, they featured different, all kinds of different things, travel stuff. I was on that site and we got a lot of traffic from them. I always remember one day, there's two guys I dealt with and one of the guys says, hey, James is leaving. You're just going to be dealing with me now. I was like, oh, cool. What's James going to do? He's like, oh, he's going to start some like encyclopedia website or something. Turns out it was Jimmy Wells from Wikipedia that started Wikipedia. I was dealing with him before he was Jimmy Wells from Wikipedia. So the old days, It goes back. I mean, he probably doesn't remember me from Adam now, but we had many calls and email exchanges back in the day. Jason Boyce: So you do direct marketing, you jump all over the internet from the word go, building lists, using email, building a catalog business, packaging things together to resell. You created your own brands as well and then Amazon shows up. What runs through Kevin King's mind the minute Amazon starts to open up its third-party sales? Kevin King: I actually was selling before they opened up. I sold on... I remember when PayPal came out. And they were giving $10 in your account if you signed up and $10 to me as an affiliate commission for every account signed up. And so I'm reporting that. And around that time, I was selling some CDs or DVDs. I think it was around that time the transition of going from It wasn't DVD to Blu-ray. Maybe it was music to DVD, albums to DVD or something. So I had a bunch of stuff to sell. I was like, where can I sell this? I was selling on eBay and I saw on Amazon. I was poking around on Amazon and it said, sell yours. You have one to sell, sell yours. I was like, oh, let me throw it on there. It freaking sold just like that. I didn't have to go through some sort of auction stuff or wait. They took the money I got. I was like, this is pretty freaking cool. So I started selling. I'd put stuff, if I had an old printer, I put it on eBay and I put it on Amazon. On Amazon, it's sell yours. I put it as used, whatever, and I'd sell it faster on Amazon. It's like, holy cow, this Amazon stuff is way better than this eBay stuff. This is before they had a third-party marketplace. So then it's like, how can I get involved in selling on Amazon? I was hearing the news that they were losing money hand over fist, but they were growing. So I said, we have these calendars. What about our calendars? So I contacted them. I don't remember who I contacted or how I did it, but I contacted them and I said, we'll take them and what's called the Advantage Program. I don't know if it still exists, but it was for books, media and DVDs only. And you would send it in basically on consignment. Kind of a consignment purchase order and it would be for like the first year was like 200 units or something like that. And then the next year was like 400 units. Now we sell that in a few hours in a day. But back then that was a lot. So I would send in my calendars and then as they would sell, I think every month, I think it was, they would pay us on it. So I was like, this is pretty cool. So I did that for several, for a long time. And then it was in 2015 that I closed down one business. It was traveling the world. I traveled the world for like seven years and just kind of working on the side and traveling and went to like 94, I've been to 94 countries. So I did a whole lot of travel and it kind of started to run out of money. And I was like, all right, what can I do now? And so I started looking at some different things and I saw something on the line from amazing.com. They were doing a course. It's like a four part webinar on how to sell third party on Amazon. I think it was about late 2014 and I was like, I watched it and then at the end they say, hey, pay us $5,000 for this course and we'll teach you everything. I was like, I watched what they were doing in the free webinar. I was like, I don't need this course. I've been doing this already. I've already been sourcing from Asia. I've been selling online. I know what the heck I'm doing. I'm already on Amazon as a third-party seller. Why don't I do this? So I launched five brands in 2015 on Amazon. Me and I had a silent partner who put up some money and we took about $200,000 and launched five brands on Amazon. Two of those still exist today. The other three I've closed them down and I've started some others. I still sell on Amazon. Even though I teach, I do all the stuff, I still have active Amazon seller accounts. I think that's important. I'm not some big eight, nine-figure seller. I don't have any desire to be, but seven figures a year. Nice and easy and keep my foot in the game and make a little money. It's all good for me. Jason Boyce: You don't need to be a top, you know, nine-figure seller because you got checks showing up at your door every day. Kevin King: That's right. Jason Boyce: Magazine order and sales and the newspaper sales. That's incredible. I love it. I love it. So look, obviously, You are one of the rare birds, Kevin, that just has DNA, just has the entrepreneur DNA coursing through your veins. And you do a lot of teaching. You talk to a lot of young people about how to set up business, what the opportunities are. When you're talking to Younger sellers who probably didn't know that you could sell things before there was something called the internet and Amazon. What's some advice that you give to folks just starting out in today's day and age? Kevin King: Well, I would say, you know, for the serious people, study the past. There's nothing new. Everybody, you know, you see it online, something on YouTube. Oh, there's this new way of selling people, this new funnel, this new thing. I'm looking, I'm like, no, dude, we were doing that 40 years ago. All that's new is the technology. In some ways, it's easier to track them now. We were doing all that before, just in a different way. We used to run infomercials. You have a different 1-800 number for every market so you know which markets are working. Now you have an affiliate link and a tracking link. It's the same thing, just a different medium involved. Human psychology has not changed. How to think and grow rich was written 100 years ago and it hasn't changed. The psychology of humans hasn't changed. The delivery mechanisms and the technology has changed and that's what a lot of people they think that's the new hot thing and they think they've discovered something new and no you haven't. Study the past, go back and look at Ogilvy and some of those guys from the 40s and 50s. There's a lot of valuable stuff in there that if you take those principles and apply them to what we're doing today, you can crush it. That's the number one thing that I would say to the young people is don't think you're You're the hottest guy on the block because you have this great idea because it ain't new dude. Jason Boyce: I couldn't agree with you more Kevin on that because You know, there's so many YouTube videos out there, people showing you how to sell on Amazon. What they're showing is the technical aspects of using the technology to sell, but what they're missing is what you're talking about. Those core elements of buy for a dollar, sell for two, whatever those basics are, building your customer list, remarketing, all of those things that have fancy cool tech buzzword names now with the technology, all of that stuff was here before. Kevin King: The fundamentals are what matters. Hacks are cool and hacks can sometimes get you out of a bind and people love to get the hacks. I teach some of those because people like to hear it, but the core is the fundamentals. And so a lot of these YouTube videos, most of them that are teaching you how to drop ship or how to sell on Amazon are failed sellers. The vast majority. Some of them are actually truly successful but if you peel back the onion, most of them aren't making any money selling. They're making their money teaching you. And so most of them don't know what they're doing or they did it for a month and like, oh, I'm just going to teach this. Now, I kind of figured out I'm going to teach it. They have no clue what they're doing. Like you said, they just show the glamorous parts. Sell it for $20, buy it on Alibaba for $2, you got a 90% profit margin. No, you don't, dude. You're leaving out everything in between. You don't show any of the cash flow. I see this happens all the time. People are like, how much money do I need to start selling on Amazon? Well, it depends. It depends on your goal. If you're from Pakistan making $500 a month, And you can make $1,000 a month selling on Amazon. Maybe you can start with $3,000 to $5,000 and change your life. But if you're in the Western world and trying to quit your job, no way in hell you're going to start with that low of money and have any chance of success. You might start with that. You always hear stories, I started with $500. But what they don't tell you is that a month in, their supplier gave them some crazy terms and they got lucky. Their rich uncle gave them something. They put something on a credit card. There's a lot more to the story that's just BS. And a lot of them say, here's the 10 steps. Do this to launch your products. People like, they like actions but that's not how I teach it in the Freedom Ticket. I teach the fundamentals. It's 60 hours of training and I teach you to think for yourself. I say this is how it works. This is what you need to know. Now go implement it. I'm not going to say here's the 20 steps. Do this first, do number two, do this because that doesn't work. Everybody is different. Focus on the fundamentals and a big one that people make is how much money, back on how much money do I need? My rule of thumb is a minimum of two and a half times your initial landed cost. So if you're looking to start selling a product on Amazon and you find some sort of a garlic press that you can buy for two bucks and you look at the Helium 10 or Jungle Scout or whatever tool of choice you want to see which they're going to sell and you want to rank in the top, say on page one, spot number five, that means you need to sell 300 a month, let's say, and it takes you two months to get the product made, another month to get it shipped here. So you got three months worth of inventory that you need to have behind. So you need to order 600 of these things. So 600 of them, and let's say they cost you five bucks a piece. That's $3,000. Well, a lot of people would be like, okay, I've got three grand. I'm going to start this. That's a mistake. You need to have two and a half times three grand. You need to have about eight grand to actually have a fighting chance. Welcome to Day 2 of Making That Work because you're going to have advertising costs. You're going to have other software costs. You're going to have other costs involved in it. Jason Boyce: Returns, cost of capital. Kevin King: Returns, everything else plus you're going to start selling and you're like, holy cow, this is actually doing well. I need to call the factory and get more. They're going to want 30% down. Where's that money going to come from? You need to keep the ball rolling or you're just going to be DOA and you're going to run out of stock and then basically someone's going to take your place or You're going to be starting over when you come back, so that's a big fundamental mistake a lot of new people make, including experienced sellers. They don't start with enough budget, enough cash to actually give themselves the runway to have a chance of success. So I teach all that kind of stuff and all the fundamentals and then the best thing for me is when I have people, I'm in a Prosper Show or if someone comes up and says, I'm so happy to meet you. Can we take a selfie or something?" I'm like, sure. Then they tell me, I took your class four years ago. Now, my company is doing $50 million. I was able to quit my job or whatever. That's the reward for me. I didn't do the work. They did all the work. It wasn't any magic. I did. I just gave them that little, everybody needs a little pushing hand. Everybody needs a little help. I just gave them that little push, that little basic information. And I encourage people don't just listen to me. You should go. There's other people in this space that are smart too. And then I have a different approach. Listen to them all and make your own way and decide what's best for what your goals are and for what you're trying to achieve. Jason Boyce: I love that comment about cash. Cash is what can make or break your business. So setting that expectation, Whatever you think you're going to need, you probably need two and a half times that is a heck of a safety net to put together to give this business a chance to come to life. Kevin King: Too many people don't know margins. You need to be selling online for four to six times your landing cost. So back on this garlic press, if it's $3 and let's say my landed cost is $4, I should not be selling those for anything less than $20. And I'll see people that will sell that for $11.99 because that's what everybody else is selling it for. And I was like, you have no chance of success. The money is made in sourcing, not in selling. So that number one. Number two is if you don't have the margin and direct mail business, we used to say five to one to make it work. Internet, you can do a little bit less in some cases. Depends on the more expensive the product, the less the multiple can be. But for sub $100 products, you need that four or five, six is ideal. And if you don't have that margin, then your chance of success is extremely low. One of my calendar products, for example, we print in South Korea. Our landed cost is $1.60 and we sell for $20. And so I have room there if a competition comes in. It's pricing me out. One, our stuff is unique, so we have no direct competition. Jason Boyce: That's the key. That's a very key component for maintaining that high margin. That's right, Kevin. Kevin King: Differentiation is too many people don't differentiate enough. Too many people are Me Too products. Oh, I'm going to throw a warranty in with it. I'm going to throw a PDF cookbook, or I'm going to change the color from red to orange, or I'm going to include a free brush. It's not enough. Two of the products when I launched five of them in 2015, two of those I designed myself from scratch. One of them was an iPhone charging station with a Bluetooth speaker. It would charge three different devices at once. It was really, really nice. It was a $90 product. It wasn't going to Alibaba and find something that someone has and stick my name on it. It cost me $35,000 in molding costs and I developed it from scratch. It was a top seller. Another one I did is a dog bowl. It's a slow feed dog bowl. Slow feed dog bowls are good and a lot of them on Amazon now are $5, $6, $8 but they're just pieces of plastic. They're ugly looking little things. I was like, I don't want that in my house. I want a nice looking bowl so I created one that's in the shape of a bone. It doesn't slide on the floor. It has little holes if you want to stake in the ground outside and all this other stuff. I created my own molds myself, did 3D printing on it, did the whole process. Molds cost like $6,000. I sell it to small size for $19.95 and large size for $24.95. Was I the best seller? No. Because people that want to just commodity bold and care, they bought the $6 one. But I could compete on some of the keywords and sell it. People that want a quality product would pay for it. Everybody thinks Amazon is about lowest price. It's not. It is in some categories on some keywords. On commoditized items, it can be. But if you differentiate and people, a lot of times they don't understand what differentiating means. All business is marketing and innovation. Those are the two fundamentals of any business. If you can master the marketing and the innovation part, you have a good chance of winning. Look at Apple. That's what they do. Their whole business is innovating and marketing. The whole marketing of be different, of the 1984 ad, of everything. And then it's innovation with products. You nail those two things, you're going to most likely succeed. And most people don't understand that or they're not willing to put in the work. It's a long-term play. It's not a quick win. Jason Boyce: Yeah, Kevin, just backing up what you said, I lived that. I used to go over to China, go into the showroom, I'll take one of those, one of those, one of those and sell it because we were undercutting US-based companies who were importing. We were undercutting their price. What happened a few years later is the Chinese themselves came in and started selling the exact same product at a heck of a lot lower than I could sell it as and we had to evolve and we had to start designing and developing something that was cooler and different. My co-author Rick Cesare, have you met Rick? I feel like maybe you have. Kevin King: I might have in passing somewhere. Jason Boyce: Our mutual buddy Steve Simonson knows Rick too but Rick said it best, difference better than better. On Amazon, you got ratings, so you got to be better too in terms of quality. You got to have a good quality product, but that differentiation, focus on cash flow. If our listeners who are young and getting ready to start, Kevin, just focus on those two things alone, they will leave this podcast a lot smarter and ultimately a lot richer down the road. Kevin King: A lot of people may be like, well, I don't know if my idea is going to work. What if someone steals it? You just got to go. You just got to go and it may fail but you're going to learn a lot off of it and you're going to pick yourself up and do it again. I've had bankruptcy. I actually filed for bankruptcy. I've gotten into tax problems because I was robbing Peter to pay Paul. I mean I've been the whole gamut. That's part of business. If that's not for you, that's okay. Go work for somebody and do it for them and have the nice guaranteed salary and the benefits and everything. And be happy. If you're a risk taker and you want the big rewards and you like helping others and like leading the pack, then be an entrepreneur. Jason Boyce: All right. I got a past question for you and then I got a future question for you, Kevin. Kevin King: Sure. Jason Boyce: And then we'll wrap up here. What marketing tool that some folks maybe have never heard of or wouldn't think to consider in today's quote technology age is still one of the best performers that you have? It's something we should think about, but maybe it's not sexy anymore, Kevin, but it's sure, based on Kevin King's experience, you should really think about it, because it works really, really well still. Kevin King: It's getting data on your list. It's not so much a tool, it's a resource. Like Melissa Data is an example. Melissa Data is a company that has massive amounts of data where you can append your data. If you've got a list of customers, you can get their mailing address. If you've got a list of email addresses, you can get their physical address. You can create avatars of your customer. Here's a list of a thousand of my buyers. Who are they? Oh, 80% of them are soccer moms that drive a Toyota SUV and they live in this and that. You can get all kinds of demographics. Those are the things that most people aren't doing. That can really help you pinpoint your market. Doing that back-end stuff, it's not so much a whiz-bang cool tool to find keywords or to control your finances or there's tons of those. But it's doing that core fundamental understanding your avatar stuff that big companies do it. But all these small Amazon sellers rarely do it. They don't even know it exists. In most cases, there's all this big data that you can overlay to what you have and there's ways to build your audience besides just Amazon, through newsletters, obviously through social media and other ways that you can do things you don't have to just depend on Amazon. Amazon is a great marketplace of choice for most people and it's a great place to start. There's never been anything like it in a hundred years. It's the best business opportunity there has ever been, in my opinion, for a small guy to actually compete against the big boys. But it's also, it's not the only place. But it's a great place to start and then when you're ready, don't do it too soon, you can branch off. And to do other things and then let Amazon still be 40, 50, 60% of your sales because it probably will be, but you can accentuate those sales by doing offline stuff, by making money offline and helping it boost your online. I mean, a perfect example, that's those envelopes I just showed you. What I do is I have a list of 17,000 customers who have been buying from me for 20, 25 years, calendars. So every year we send them out a brochure in the mail. It's a printed brochure. It looks something like this and this just folds out. We send it to them in the mail. Some of them prefer to write it. They're old school. They prefer, don't have a credit card. They don't like the internet, don't trust it, whatever. For whatever reason, they want to pay $12.95 shipping and handling. We used to have a phone number where they could call in. I had four girls answering and I got rid of that. And that cut my sales a little bit, but it's like, ah, it's just not worth it. But they'll mail in those checks and money orders. But I also put in that brochure, I said, oh, you don't want to pay shipping and handling, go buy it on Amazon. It's available on Amazon.com. What does that do? Some of them go there, they're prime members, they don't pay the $9.95 or $12.95 shipping and handling, that charge, it juices the rankings. And it helps me launch the product without ever having to do, I don't do any PPC on our calendars, zero. And we'll sell, We're already right now, as we're recording this, it's before Thanksgiving, we're already doing $3,000, $4,000 a day right now. That'll 3 to 5x later this week. Jason Boyce: And you're driving that traffic externally from your car. Kevin King: It gets the ball rolling. Jason Boyce: Yeah. Kevin King: And then because I know these guys are collectors, they're not just going to buy my calendar. They're going to buy other people's on there. So what does that do? That gets me in the customers who viewed this also viewed that. I do a lot of other similar things and it starts that snowball rolling and so I get on all these other listings naturally before the hot, before the, I do it, start doing it in September before, you know, when you're only selling a few a day, but you just ride that wave all the way up and then once Black Friday hits, you're already positioned and you just keep riding the wave. I'm not having to come in and try to get into the middle of the wave. I'm just riding it from the beginning. So marrying those two together can be super powerful. And newsletters are another awesome way to do that, that most people are overlooking right now. A lot of people might roll their eyes when I say newsletters. I'm like, oh yeah, I get plenty of those. I don't have time. Email is so 1990s, Kevin. Everybody's on TikTok now. Yeah, a lot of people on TikTok, but newsletters. These are super powerful, if done right. Most people are just doing promotional emails and they call it a newsletter. It's not a newsletter, but a newsletter done right, and I've seen this firsthand with my Billion Dollar Sellers Newsletter. I started it. It's a funnel for my events, and it's a function of my training, an extension of my training. I haven't sold anything yet in them, but I started one in August, and it's twice a week. I underestimated the power that it gives me. The ultimate test will be next year when I have my $5,000 event. Let's see how many extra sales I get off of that. But the power of a newsletter done properly is amazing. And most people aren't willing to put in the work or the effort to do that. But I'm doing it now for physical products. So for our dog brand, we're doing a newsletter. We're doing it for a cigar brand. We're doing it for a couple of others. This is not the company newsletter. Hey, we just came out with a new cigar or here's a 20% off Black Friday sale or Johnny just got promoted to vice president. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about providing real freaking value and just bang, bang, bang. Here's value, value, value, value, value, value. Oh, you want my thing? But what you do is you build relationships. It's about relationships. Why do people go to Amazon and buy? Why is that their first place? Because there's a relationship. They trust them. They know that they're going to get the product in a day or two if they're prime. They know that if there's a problem, it's easy to return. They know it's a quick and simple process. There's a trust there that's been built up over time and Amazon lost money for years building that trust and building out their infrastructure. Now they have it. You don't have that. You're Johnny Brand selling whatever. You're not Nike. You don't have that trust. You've got to build that trust and just selling one-off stuff off of Amazon is not going to build that trust. You need to create relationships with your customers. And the best way to do that is through a regular punctual newsletter and delivering massive value that they're not going to get anywhere else. It's not just a summary of the same stuff they can get somewhere else. And when you do that, you own them. And you can drive them anywhere you want. Drive them to Walmart. Drive them to Shopify. Drive them to Amazon. Get them to participate in your next product. And we're doing that with physical product brands now. And it's magical what it does. Jason Boyce: Kevin, I love that because so often when you talk to folks about Amazon, it's like, oh, Amazon's got the customer, you're renting the customer on there, but you're actually taking the customer and developing that customer in your own list so that you do own the customer even though you're selling on Amazon. Kevin King: Example, that's in my calendars. Calendars are like selling milk. They expire. So I have 2024 calendars coming out now. Come January, even though you still have the full year left, people don't want to pay full price for a calendar. By this time next year, nobody wants a 2024 calendar. They want the 2025. So if I have extra stock, it's not like I'll just sell it next season. It's dead. So what I do is in every single calendar that goes on Amazon, we sell on calendars.com, we sell on much of other places, there's a little 4x6 insert card. And this 4x6 insert card says congratulations, you've won a free calendar. If you want to see our other calendars, go to this website, it has our URL. And a lot of people get that calendar, they go to our website and they buy other calendars. The free calendars, it's free plus shipping. So some of those envelopes will be people sending me a $10 check. So it's free plus $10 shipping. So my calendar, line of cost, let's just call it $2 to round it off, $2. About $5 to send it out first class mail. So $7. So I just made $3 profit off of a lead. I got a lead, a true buyer. It's now on my list. So what do they get the next year? They get that brochure in the mail reminding them. Some of them come and they buy because I don't just sell the ones we make. I sell others too. We import from Germany, other people's stuff. So I have a list. So I'm going to leverage it, not just for my stuff, leverage it for complimentary, even competitive stuff. And you make more money that way. And so I do that. So Amazon to me is a lead job. It's a profit center, but it's also a massive legion. Some people would say, well, you're not allowed to put inserts in your package. It's like BS. You're totally allowed to put inserts in your package. You just, what you can't do is influence reviews. So there's, you can't say, I'll give you something in exchange for a review or scan this code to do this. And people say, well, you can't drive traffic off Amazon. That's what the TOS says. Yeah, that's what it says. You're not driving traffic off. That's after Amazon. That's the one that's in my house. You can't put it on Amazon in the picture and have your URL showing up in picture number 2 or put it in your bullet points, go to my website or send an email to the customer saying come check it. They don't want you doing any of that. But once that product is in my house, it's my product. And the biggest brands do it. All the big brands do it. You look at Sony, you buy something, they all are sending you somewhere. There's nothing wrong with that. Jason Boyce: At a minimum, there's a warranty card where they're not really selling a warranty. Kevin King: Yeah, it's a lot of misconception of what you can do. What's contained in that box stays in that box. And so what Amazon doesn't want you doing is influencing reviews in any way and incentivizing reviews. And the second is they don't want you While they're on the Amazon site, they don't want, or via the Amazon site, they don't want any misdirecting going anywhere else but back to Amazon. So as long as you do that, those inserts are fine and we generate a lot off of that. It builds a list and it helps me in the next year, sell more on Amazon, sell more everywhere else. Jason Boyce: You know, some might call it guerrilla, but it's a great way to bootstrap and get a business going, but then never stop. It's a way to scale a business and nurture a list and provide value and make profits off of that. I love what you're saying, Kevin. There aren't a lot of people talking about this. Kevin King: The MelissaData thing I told you, you asked me the tool earlier, MelissaData. So before I mail these 17,000, what I do is people die. People move. And so if you cancel your email address and you're on my list and it bounces, I'm SOL. I was like, oh, I got to take you off the list. If I go in to Melissa data and here's my list of customers, of course, they tie into the national change of address, NCOA address for the post office going back four years. So they can tell me every time you move, they update the addresses for me. So I'm stalking you. I'm following you around everywhere you go. So that's another value of that tool is that I'm constantly in touch with you. I can't do that if I just have your email address. If I just have, I mean, you can, there are some ways, but it's much more complicated. But if you have the physical address of a human in the United States or Canada, it's extremely easy to stay in touch with them. Jason Boyce: It's so funny you mentioned Melissa Data because we used to run our list through there just to determine who our customer was. It was long before Amazon would share customer demographics. I've told this story a bunch of times on Day 2, Kevin, where we thought we were like the bro man cave company. We were selling recreational games. And foosball and billiard tables. But then, you know, when we saw our list, we went, holy crap, 65% of our customers are moms living in the suburbs. We need to change our branding immediately. Those lists and Melissa data is such a great, great tool to reference for a lot of reasons. And I love some of the use cases that you put out there for our listeners. Kevin King: There's others, tower data. I mean, Melissa data is not the only one. There's tower data. There's a bunch of them. So you could, but that's just, that's just what I personally use. Jason Boyce: All right. Let's look, get your crystal ball out here, Kevin. There has been so much change on Amazon. Earlier this year, announcing Buy With Prime in the annual letter. You could DSP advertise to drive traffic to your eCommerce site. There's been announcements about a Shopify app of buy buttons and Instagram and Facebook and ad placements on Pinterest. Even last week, we learned that Hyundai is going to be selling cars on Amazon. So much change so fast. It's clear that they're moving outside of this walled garden that they've built. Are you surprised that they're going beyond their own walls? And what does this hold for the future in terms of Amazon? Where would you be thinking about taking your business based on all of these stories that keep hitting us almost on a weekly basis from Amazon? Kevin King: I mean, I don't think Amazon is going anywhere. I mean, they're going to have some ups and downs, but Amazon is still the gorilla in the room, the elephant in the room. They're still going to be, you definitely want to be on Amazon if you're selling eCommerce If you're selling, you need to be on Amazon because that is a shopping cart of choice for a lot of people. Whether you like them or not, or whether the problems you have or not, or whether you want to focus all your energy, you still need to be on Amazon. But I think where Amazon is getting their butt kicked right now is TikTok. Amazon Live has not taken off. Amazon Inspire has not taken off. They're having trouble marketing and positioning that and getting people to actually use that. That's why they've partnered with Snap and with Facebook recently. TikTok shop depends on, you know, some people say there may be some regulations that come down that affect this and that's possible. I don't think so. I think there may be government regulations that say you can't use TikTok on government devices. But there's a case in, I think it's Wyoming. Jason Boyce: Those are there already. Kevin King: A lot of cases, those are there already. And you know, if it gets nasty, I think they'll just spin it off. It may change names. It may change the US ownership. There may be something. It's not going to just disappear. There'll be some form of that. But their TikTok shop is crushing it right now. And it's the new way of discovery for a lot of the younger people. Amazon's missed the boat on that. So I think TikTok is a threat to them, not in the near term, but long term. And I think Amazon realizes that if I was selling right now, I'd be focusing on Amazon, still the best place to launch out of the gate. I would say TikTok is number two right now. I mean, it's not in volume of sales. Walmart.com is still way higher. But the opportunity on TikTok, because it's early and not a lot of people are there, the opportunity for individual people to crush it is extremely high. But I would say that you want to focus on four things if you're selling in the U.S. Your own DTC, Amazon, Walmart.com and TikTok. Everything else doesn't matter. In your own DTC initially, unless you're going to have a model that's the DTC model and some people that's their model is run Facebook ads, it's run TikTok or whatever. And that's a whole different model than selling on Amazon. So I think Amazon is still the number one place to start. TikTok would be number two and if you're starting on TikTok first, make sure you have a presence on Amazon because most people that are doing TikTok, even though TikTok shop is there, you still have a lot of people that are just Googling a brand name on Amazon and going and buying on Amazon. They're not going to walmart.com and Googling a name. I mean, there might be a few, but the vast majority are going, you know, people that are selling on TikTok, on TikTok shop say they see a 20-30% bump on Amazon because people just don't want to go to TikTok shop. Their credit cards are already in. It's stored in Prime. It's already there. So those two would be the two, TikTok and Amazon would be the two I'd be heavily focusing on. TikTok is way behind. They're expecting like $20 billion or something like that in sales, which is, you know, that's a good day for Amazon. But it's going to grow really, really fast, in my opinion. So I don't think it's going anywhere. I think it's only going to get bigger and it needs to be a part of everybody's strategy is those four in some level and maybe not all at the same time if you're new, but that's where I think it's going. I think you're going to see more social discovery mechanisms. I think you're going to see Amazon We're going to open up a little bit more data to sellers, partly some of the FTC stuff, partly because they're going to need to allow their sellers to compete. You already have all the data that's been opening up over the last couple of years. You used to have to either pay Black Hat guys in China or India to get that or scrape it. Now they're opening it. That's going to become more. The biggest thing is, and Amazon's already doing this, is you need to be a brand, a true brand. A brand is not a logo. A brand is an affinity, an identity. And that's where a lot of these new sellers, they don't understand how to do that. They don't understand what real true branding is and how to actually do a brand. You look at the commercial right now, it's a really good case study for Amazon. I just saw this watching the Dallas Cowboy game yesterday. It's a 60-second commercial and Adweek did a good case study. I'll probably feature it in my newsletter on this commercial that Amazon just ran of these three elderly women sitting on a bench reminiscing about the days when they were snow sledding. It's a hill. I can't even speak. And it's a really good branding commercial. That's branding right there. They didn't say go to Amazon and buy a sled. It's branding and imagery and it's really well done. It's shot in Mammoth, California and it's a really good little case study on it and the reaction that they're getting from the overall crowd is extremely powerful and giving a brand identity. That's where a lot of people are failing, sellers are failing is they don't understand that not everything is direct response. I just saw someone post yesterday on one of these groups. I do all these shows and I'm just not getting an ROI from attending all these shows. I'm like, you're attending the wrong shows or you're doing it wrong because you're expecting to go to a show and have 10 new clients sign up. It's branding. Coca-Cola is 100 plus years old. They still sponsor the Super Bowl and stuff. They're still doing branding. You have to do that. That's where I think a lot of people, they don't have the money or don't understand that aspect that in combination with direct marketing is a powerful one-two punch. Jason Boyce: You can't grow if you can't introduce your products to people who don't know your brand and grow. Kevin King: You want them to actually know your brand and want to be part of it. Look at Yeti. Yeti is a good one. Brand gives you as a human a part of your identity. There's a reason some people drive Porsches and other people drive Hyundais. Jason Boyce: Speaking of driving, I drove down the street and I think I mentioned on the podcast before, you know you've got a brand when someone puts your brand names as a sticker on their back window of their truck, right? I saw a Yeti as a sticker. You know you've got a brand when people are so connected to what you're creating that they want to announce to the rest of the world that they're a customer of yours. And I think you're right. I think that's the next. And maybe in combination, some of this video through TikTok is a way to do that. But you're just a wealth of knowledge, Kevin. I really appreciate you coming on the show. How can folks get a hold of you if they want to learn more at the feet of the great Kevin King? Kevin King: Probably the best way right now is subscribe to my newsletter, BillionDollarSellers.com. It's totally free. If you sign up and you don't open it and click in a month, I kick you out even though it's free. But it comes out every Monday and Thursday. A lot of good actionable eCommerce stuff, Amazon primarily, but I also cover some TikTok and some Walmart and some other, a little bit of AI and stuff in there, but it's getting I'm getting rave reviews right now. So a lot of actionable tips and strategies in there. It's not a promotional marketing email. Jason Boyce: And Kevin, I'm a subscriber. I appreciate it and I love your newsletter. So do yourself a favor and go out and sign up for Kevin's newsletter. So Kevin, thanks again for being here. As always, a wealth of knowledge and such an impressive Entrepreneurial background. You've heard of serial entrepreneurs. Kevin King is a serial entrepreneur to the 10th or 100th power. It's amazing. It's amazing to learn from you, Kevin, and thanks again for being on the show. Kevin King: I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Jason Boyce: Last thing, Kevin, thank you for your service to the seller community. Not only just have you made your money, you've made your millions, but you've also helped others understand what you kind of were born with and knew naturally at the age of three and four. So thank you for that service that you do to the seller community and all the great content that you share out there. We'll have you on the show again in the future. Thank you. Kevin King: I appreciate it. That's very kind of you. Jason Boyce: If you're ready to start growing and protecting your brand on Amazon with a team of experienced Amazon operators, you can visit us at day2podcast.com. That's day, the number two podcast.com. And lastly, if you know anyone else who would benefit from this podcast, like these amazing stories and information from Kevin King, please share it with them. Thank you for listening and happy selling.