How to Transform Your Agency's Messaging for Maximum ROI with Stephen Woessner | Ep #795

How to Transform Your Agency's Messaging for Maximum ROI with Stephen Woessner | Ep #795 Speaker 2: Hey, Stephen, welcome to the show. Speaker 1: Hey, thanks very much, Jason. I really appreciate the invitation. Very kind of you. Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm excited to have you on. Tell me a little bit of your back story. Speaker 1: Well, as with most of your guests, sort of a winding path of what brought me here to today. But Predictive ROI has been around for about 15 years. I've been in the agency business about 30. And there was a six-year stint kind of in between all of that, that I was in academia. And I taught at the University of Wisconsin. Lacrosse was my home campus, so UW-Lacrosse was my home campus. And then I taught throughout the state, including the School of Business at UW-Madison. That's where I wrote my first couple of books. I've since now written five. But after I wrote my first couple of books, I started getting some opportunities or questions about, hey, could you do this? You know, like consulting. And for a while, I said no. And then it just became, you know, intellectually interesting. And then I decided to start Predictive ROI. So like I said, that's 15 years ago. We only work with agencies. We help them sell more of what they do for a higher fee. We're a team of 30 now with clients all over the country. It feels like an amazing blessing and privilege to be able to work alongside agency owners and their teams every day. So it feels really, really great. Speaker 2: How are you seeing, I mean, obviously there's tons of agencies out there that have gotten to a certain level just on word of mouth and referrals. And I always say that's just not scalable. And so what are you seeing that's working right now? Because you're probably like me, I see a thousand different ads from People that probably shouldn't be posting ads about, you know, filling your calendar and posting and that kind of stuff. So, you know, what are you seeing working? Speaker 1: Well, a number of different things. And I get it that your audience might kind of roll their eyes a little bit because I get that what I'm going to say comes through my lens and there's naturally a little bit of bias in this. But when Drew McClellan and I wrote the book, Sell with Authority back in 2020, We felt like agencies then and still today have this really incredible opportunity to be much more selective about who they work with, be much more specific about how they help, and then teach and share the best of what they have against those pain points. When I interviewed Jay Baer back on episode, I think 326 for the Onward Nation podcast years ago, he said, he goes, I think that as experts, as authorities in the space, as influencers, whatever word you want to use, you have to give away the best of what you got for free, cut it up into small little info snacks. So to answer your question, what I think is working is when agencies are very specific about who they want to serve. When they're very specific about what they want to sell, and when they're very specific about how to go to market and sell that, not just with sales tactics, but then also with a generous amount of content that teaches everything what it is that they do in full transparency, then the right fit prospect will say, yeah, can you help me do that? And it's really important, in my opinion it's really important, that agencies eat their own dog food. And they actually do what it is that they're trying to sell. And they're not that social media lead gen agency trying to sell social media lead gen. And then you ask them, why aren't you doing that for you? And they're like, oh, we're the Coppler's kids. I think that that day is done and clients are not buying that anymore. Speaker 2: You know, the one thing I was checking out, there was a site that I checked out this morning I can't remember what it was called. They did a bad job at marketing it, but it literally had all these people on the homepage and it was all fake AI people. And it was like, hey, I am Jeff, your social media manager. I am Tim, your blog writer. I am Uniqua for Facebook ads or whatever it is. And it's literally this AI tool that you plug in all your details and it basically creates this AI team In order to do and I was I was fascinated by it because we just got back from our Elevate event in Phoenix. And there's so many agencies that struggle with knowing what content to put out. And I was like, well, there's all these tools out that make it easier for you to figure this out. Like this one tool that I just saw, like, crap. It probably does a really shitty job right now, right? Like you always can kind of tell AI versus a person for the most part, but I don't see there any excuse for agencies not creating content. Speaker 1: No, there isn't. The tools are there, but what it requires is that the agency actually be intentional, that they actually craft a strategy, that they actually stand for something, that they actually have a point of view that resonates, that they actually are smart about the business issues and challenges that their clients are actually dealing with, and that they actually are smart in the strategies that what they're delivering from the agency actually speaks to those things. And I think that the days of the agency going in and having a conversation with a prospect and throwing spaghetti on the wall, I think those days are few and far between now as far as like that being the opportunity. I think clients' expectations are very high. They're looking for agencies that have a specialization and deep expertise in particular things. They're fine to work with multiple agencies and maybe they have an agency that's sort of the quarterback of all of those. But I think that they're looking for clients are demanding a higher bar and rightly so. And so I think it requires us then to also raise the bar of excellence. Speaker 2: The one thing I was speaking about last week at the event was if you can educate your prospect more than the competition, right? Like on the exact process. So like when we were selling websites, I would say, you know, to the prospect, all right, well, probably everybody else is probably going to ask you what websites you like, which is probably going to say, I'm on an original, I'm going to copy someone else. That's why your whole market looks the same. What we're going to do is we're going to go through this process. And 25% of the time we'll nail down perfect, 50% there'll be a couple little tweaks, another quarter will be off mark, but this is actually how we do it. And they could actually go use this. They could actually go do it themselves, but they don't want to. The reason why they're coming to you as an agency is to save time, but they want to understand that you understand. Because I've hired so many agencies that said, oh, I can help you out with Facebook ads or YouTube ads or whatever, but they took a course. From someone else, and then they were never really good. Speaker 1: Yeah. So to your point that when you were running that shop, you guys had a methodology. You had a methodology that not only took a client through a process so that they would be a better client for the agency if they did say yes, but you also took them through a methodology That instilled confidence and it was helpful and they saw, oh, these guys really do know what they're doing. Oh, you mean we could just take this and do this on our own? But why in the world would we want to do that? They are clearly the experts. But candidly, developing a methodology is hard. And I don't mean like we do discovery and then we brainstorm and then we build some creative and then we sell that to you and then we do execution and then we look at the results like a true methodology, which is what you guys built. And then not only did you get rewarded by the clients, but if I remember correctly, like you ended up selling that business, correct? Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Speaker 1: Okay. So could you have sold that business? Speaker 2: No. Speaker 1: Without a good methodology? If the prospective buyer said... Speaker 2: Well, I guess I could have, but I wouldn't have got what I... Right? Like you could sell anything for a dollar. Speaker 1: Well, prospective buyer, what we do is we throw spaghetti on the wall and it looks like this and we hope it comes out like you wouldn't have got the same multiple, right? Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh, it gets so frustrating sometimes, but you know, like I feel that I was telling our mastermind this morning when we met and I said, running an agency is almost kind of like a strategic game, right? Do you remember the game Age of Empires? You ever play that? There's like these strategy games where you have to go out and get these resources. Like you start off in the Stone Age, and then you gather gold, wood, and food. And when you get to a certain amount, a number, right, you move up a level. And that's how I have always treated agencies where They've started out where it was fun, it was easy, it was just them. And then they go, I want more clients. Then they bring on one or two people, they make it to the next level, but they're still doing everything as they were like that one person, like that methodology. But then If that three-person team actually started creating a process, a methodology, a system around onboarding, a system for sales, a system for dragging in leads, then they move up a level. But those methodology changes a little bit as you keep moving up. You know, the stages from the Stone Age to the Industrial Age or whatever it is, right? We're in the AI stage, I guess, right now. Speaker 1: Well, and with each of those stages, continue your metaphor. It takes courage. There's an element of risk. The stakes are a bit higher when you have more teammates to support. Maybe you have bigger, more complex clients. And it's fine, it's fine to stay at Level 2. It's fine to stay at Level 3. Not every agency should be shooting to be Level 37. But for the agencies who do want to get to Level 37, the agencies at Level 37, they've built all of these systems that you're architecting or that you're describing, they've built all of those. No agency that was at Level 2 in 2024 became Level 37 in 2025. Speaker 2: Hi there, agency owners. Let me ask you, are you ready to scale your agency without increasing your overhead costs? If yes, then you need to know about E2M Solutions. Now, E2M is the number one most reliable white-label partner for agencies. They specialize in web design, WordPress development, e-commerce, SEO, and content writing. They basically do all the heavy lifting, which frees you up to focus on growing your agency. Now, here's the best part. E2M is just not another vendor. With over 10 years of experience, their team of over 300 experts has a track record of delivering for more than 300 agencies. They're your strategic partner. They deliver on time every time, so you can focus on what you do best. Now, E2M's mission is simple, to help 500 agencies increase their revenue and profit margins with white label services that actually work. And to help you get started, they're offering a special deal, 10% off for the first three months. But act fast because it's only a limited time offer. So head over to e2msolutions.com slash smartagency to check out their transparent and their flexible pricing. Trust me, if you're ready to grow without burning out, e2m is the partner you've been looking for. That's e2msolutions.com slash smartagency. Go check them out and tell them Jason Swenk sent you. And you got to be patient. One of the teammates on our team, he told me when we filled the event, You know, that we just had, he's like, because I was, I was questioning. I was like, you know, we were talking about this back on your show and you know, like, you're like, man, you're doing an event. Like I did an event and didn't go so well. And I was even like questioning, you know, our event. I was like, man, I was like, I want to make sure I put the right people in the right room, but I wanted to have enough people in the room for those conversations to do. And for a while it wasn't looking good. Speaker 1: Oh, really? Speaker 2: It wasn't. And my team was like, look, We always sell out. We're going to sell out again. When we sell out, you have to get a turtle tattoo and he'll get a turtle tattoo to be patient. Speaker 1: Oh, okay. Okay. I was thinking, what in the world's with the turtle? Okay, now I get it. Speaker 2: Yep. To be patient, right? And so we sold out. Like, like they predicted. And it's kind of funny now, like whenever I, cause I'm the most impatient person in the world. Like I want it now. And I think a lot of people listening are in the same boat as well of going, I want level two to 86. And I'm like, no, you got to experience all that. And you experience the wins and the losses and the struggle and the happiness and all that to appreciate when you get to that other level. And then it's just, you just keep moving on. Speaker 1: Amen to that. There are many days where I'm like, why not faster? And God's grace will wash over me and I will hear the message of patience. And then don't negate everything that's happened in the last 15 years that's setting you up for the next level, the next level, the next level. And so we feel very blessed and privileged to be where we're at today. I, too, am impatient. I'm not getting a turtle tattoo, by the way, but I, too, am impatient. But I think that's also part of the entrepreneurial DNA, right? Speaker 2: Yeah, I heard a great quote. I think it was from Deion Sanders. He said, don't let yesterday mess you up today, but let yesterday prepare you for today. And when you hear that, you're just like, yeah. But like when you're going through it, you're like, no. Because you think of it like, man, I tried to do that yesterday and totally failed and don't want to go through that pain again. But you're like, well, what did you learn from it? Speaker 1: So let's peel that back a little bit. At one point, you were feeling not so good about the event, and then you guys sold out. So what changed? What happened between the point that you were feeling uncomfortable, discussion about Turtle Tattoo, and then eventually the sellout? Speaker 2: You know, when I'm thinking back, I think there was a number of different factors. When we started promoting it, it was toward the end of the year, in an election year. And then when we did start a heavy push, it was right in the beginning of the year. And no one's really wanting to make a decision, especially on tons of uncertainty. And then we just started saying, let's not be pushy anymore. Let's just say, hey, we're doing this cool thing. If you want to be a part of it, great. And that's what changed everything. Speaker 1: Why do you think so? Speaker 2: I think when people are pushy, what is it? Like if I went up to you, Stephen, and I pushed you, what's your natural reaction? You're going to push back. Speaker 1: Yeah. Or step away, block it somehow, but it wouldn't be like warmly received. Right? Speaker 2: Exactly. But if I'm like, if I'm kind of like pulling you a little bit or a little curiosity, you're going to lean in. Or if I start whispering versus shouting, like if I shout, you're going to lean back. But if I whisper, you're going to lean in. And that's what we started doing. Speaker 1: Okay, so let's go full circle here. Now I feel like I'm almost interviewing you. Going back to the beginning when you said, what is working now? As far as agencies generating leads, new biz, that kind of stuff or whatever. It's that. When you have the confidence to sit back and say, it's here. If you think it could be helpful, great. If not, okay. And we're teaching, we're sharing, we're doing all of those things in full transparency. We have a depth of expertise. Come and get it. If this feels right for you, awesome. If not, okay. And then that just makes you more attractive as opposed to the person at the party with the red solo cup who really crass example, but everybody will get this, who tries to get to first base in the first five minutes to whomever he feels is attractive in the room. That's not going to go well for that person. Speaker 2: Exactly. Speaker 1: And it feels yucky. We've all seen that social situation. It feels yucky, maybe personally or from afar. It's gross. And yet agencies try to get to third base in the first five minutes with a prospect. And that prospect is doing exactly what you just did there with the whole blocking or whatever. They're like, oh, too soon, too fast. Speaker 2: Let's end with that or a last tip of because Agencies and everyone still struggle with knowing what to put out, right? Like we've already talked about put out your best stuff, but a lot of agencies don't know what that is. For free content, they don't know what to post on LinkedIn other than like a white paper, which I want to drown myself and in sorrow and go buy a taco truck and sell it to people when I see that, right? Like, I'm just like, no, right? Like, I hate the white paper, a taco truck. Speaker 1: Okay. Speaker 2: I don't know why that just came to me. Nothing against anybody that has a taco truck, but. It's very different. Speaker 1: So are you asking like, what should agencies create? Speaker 2: Yeah, let's say I'm an agency. I'm like, all right, guys, I'm listening. Like right now I'm shouting to the world. Right? Like I'm screaming like you guys are talking about. What's that subtle whisper of content I can post in order to really kind of get people to pay attention, but then get people to lean in? How can we get them to lean in? Speaker 1: So a couple of pieces that might be helpful. One, using your words, when you said shouting to the world, and I know that you don't necessarily mean it literally, but it can be literal, because you know, I know, and the folks back home know, when you typically ask an agency owner, Who their audience is, it's like anyone with breath who can sign a check. Speaker 2: B2B. Unknown Speaker: Yeah. Speaker 1: B2B. Yeah. Or we're in B2C, right? Oh, we do e-commerce. Okay. And so the to the world, there often is the belief, mistaken belief, in my opinion, the boy only in the ocean works and it does not. And so I think that agencies first need to grapple with that they do need to niche. That does not mean that they have to only work with plumbers for the rest of the life of the agency. Because, you know, we define niche that sure, it could be industry, but it could be a problem that you solve. It could be a superpower. It could be a geography. It could be a number of different things. But it isn't to the world. And until an agency actually thinks, okay, a friend of mine and his two business partners build an $8 billion a year company off a prospect list of 1,000 people. Speaker 2: What business is this? Boot Trap? Speaker 1: Yeah. Advisors Excel based in the financial metropolis of Topeka, Kansas. And so, when they started that business, they now do more than $8 billion a year. But when they started that business, they selected the 1,000 highest-performing financial advisors across the country. And they said, all right, we're going to change the game in the insurance marketing organization industry. We're going to slam the back door. We're going to pay super close attention to retention. And we're going to focus on the best. And we're going to be so awesome, they'll never leave. And they said, these are the 1000 that we want. And that's who they focused on. And they turned it into an $8 billion a year company in about six years. Okay, so we don't need the world. What we need, friends, are the 1,000 or 2,000 or whatever the number is of the really right fits, the clients that you're going to really love working with and they're going to love working with you, that you don't have to beg, borrow, and steal for them to say yes. Who are those 1,000? And that is a big intellectual challenge for most agencies because they don't know. And then, once we figure out the who, then it becomes actually much easier to create content that they give a rip about. Because you know the problems that you're trying to solve and then just help them solve those problems. And if it's a white paper, okay. If it's LinkedIn videos, okay. Let's forget about the channel for now and just figure out who and what do they care about? What are they trying to solve? And then teach them that. Speaker 2: Yeah, and it doesn't have to be a professional video. It could just be a little guide or a template or a cheat sheet or whatever it is just to help them out and just to get their attention. I mean, that's really what I've built this business on for the past 11 years is just sharing the best stuff for free. Like going back to where you started, if you share out your shittiest stuff first, They're going to think that's your best stuff, so might as well share out your best stuff. My dad used to, when I got into this business, he goes, you're going to run out of stuff to talk about in a year. And yes, you do talk about the same things over and over again, but you learn and everyone needs to hear it over and over again. In order to really sink in, I tell everybody, I'm like, niche down. In the mastermind, there has to be a drinking game. I remember there was. If I say start a podcast or niche down or raise your prices, those are the three things. At the end of the day, if you're an agency owner listening, there's only three things you need to do. Well, let's say four things. Niche down, raise your prices, start a podcast, and hire the best people. There's nothing else. Speaker 1: There it is. Is this a mic drop moment? Are we done? You just now covered it. Speaker 2: There's a lot of things that go in between those. But if you think about it, that's really it. Speaker 1: We make it more complicated because we start second guessing. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: The expertise, many years ago when I was at the University of Wisconsin, like I mentioned, I was teaching a class and we were talking about search engine optimization, the ideal length of a content page, some real tactical things. And there was a person in the back of the room and he was really concerned about being able to write a page of content that is about a thousand words. And I said, okay, tell me about, he made aluminum extruded trailers. And I said, are they good? He goes, oh yeah, they're good. I said, so they don't suck? No, they don't suck. And I said, so what type of load can they carry? And as he kept talking, he got more and more enthusiastic about the product. And I said, do you have customer testimonials? He goes, yeah, a bunch. And I'm like, tell me a story. And he tells me all the things, right? And so in about 90 seconds, he had like architected the entire page. And I'm like, that, that's the page of content. But sometimes when we sit down at the Google Doc and it's blank and there's a flashing cursor, all of a sudden we forget about the amazing, awesome, wonderful, beautiful things that we do every single day in support of our clients. Stop making it so hard. You do it every day. Just take a second and think, capture it, and then share that because it's going to be helpful. It does not have to be the Mona Lisa, to Jason's point. Speaker 2: And it's about telling it in a story. Everybody likes stories. A beginning, a middle, an end. And if You know, everyone listening to the podcast, you guys want to take your agency to the next level. So if you think about like, you know, what just Stephen just said about thinking of the success stories that you've had, just communicate that. That's all people care about. Don't communicate your story. No one cares about your story. Oh, I started this agency that I wanted to change the world and influence how trees grow. You know, who cares? Don't do that. Speaker 1: Your clients, prospects, they care about solving the issues in their business. And does your experience match with that? And if it does, that's just ducky. Speaker 2: Well, awesome. Well, thanks so much, Stephen, for coming on the show. It was a lot of fun going back and forth between your show and this show. And for everyone listening, go check out Stephen's podcast. It's great. And if you guys are still looking for your tribe of people, like when I just got back from the Elevate event, I always wanted to find my tribe of people. I never could find that. And it was a very lonely road and I made a lot of the wrong decisions. And sometimes I just wanted to be like, have someone to understand me. And that's really what we created at the event and in our mastermind. If you guys want to know more about that, just go to agencymastery.io. Check us out. We have all of our stuff out there for free. And then if you like the other stuff, maybe you'll want to join our community. And until next time. Have a Swenk day!