How to Build an 8-Figure Hot Sauce Brand

My partner, him and his wife were making his dad's recipe in their kitchen every chili season. And they would give it out to his real estate clients. And his real estate clients were like, "This is good." He called me up and we started going to the farm, having some conversations, and we just decided to have a 50-50 partnership from that that point on. We basically just bootstrapped everything. We took over the back of an old supermarket. We built our own manufacturing plant, built our own roasters, cooking. I did all the palleting. I did all the shipping department. >> What's the average cost for your product? It's 1095. >> You're doing eight figures with 1095 product. >> Yeah, >> that's crazy. >> I think there's four pillars for a 7 to 8 to 9 figure Shopify brand that you got to hit on every day. You got to be very consistent. >> You're watching Marketing Misfits with Norm Ferrar and Kevin K. >> Senor Ferrar. >> Jeez, I haven't seen you in a long time. Oh, is that how do you answer when you don't know Spanish? >> Uh, no. Just about as much as I know French. >> I know one word. >> Canadian who doesn't know French? What? No. You know, no. >> Well, that's pretty good. Yeah. >> So, Norm, you you like spicy stuff, right? >> Yeah. >> You like chili. Do you put chili on most of your stuff? sometimes. Where are we going with this, Kev? You >> We're going with What if you had a passion for chili and you turned it into one of the top in the top 1% of all Shopify stores? Would that would that make you uh pretty pretty pretty cool guy? >> I'd be hot for chili. >> You'd be hot for chili if you if you became one of the the top 1% of all Shopify stores selling chilies from New Mexico. chili sauces and different versions of using Hatch chilis, the famous Mexico New Mexico chili. Have you been to New Mexico? >> I've never been. >> Yeah, I was I'm not a big spice person, but I was I was I've been to New Mexico several times cuz it's right next to Texas, obviously, and I've tried some of the chilies there and the little green sauces, and man, the for the people that love that can handle some of that, they they they just their eyes roll back in their head. It's kind of like Texas barbecue. But for me, I can't handle that spiciness. But I could handle, you know, selling it and and doing 8 figures a year, building a community of like 250,000 people. That that that I could handle. >> Could you? >> Yeah. >> I don't know. Yeah. Yes, I could handle it. >> Well, that's what our guest today has done. I mean, um, Chris Lang is like somebody I met at an event, saw him speak, and, uh, you know, he was just saying it like it is. Uh uh and I really really like that. So I was like, "Man, you got to come on the podcast." He's like, "You're sure. Hit me up." And so that's who we have today as our guest. And I think we're going to dive deep into some tactical stuff, some Shopify stuff, some marketing stuff, and a way that he he thinks differently on a few things. So, it's going to be cool. >> All right, let's bring him on. >> Let's do it. How you doing, Chris? >> Hey, Chris. >> I'm doing good. Hey, guys. Thanks for having me. >> I feel out of place today. I don't uh I don't have I'm the only one on the on here without a beard. >> Or a black shirt. >> Or a black shirt. Exactly. I don't know if there's a chain a necklace underneath that beard on you, Norm. I can see it on on Chris, but I don't know if there's one hiding under there. >> Yeah, my Apple headphones. >> Oh, yeah. It is headphones. Actually, it's not a necklace, but Yeah. So, Chris, good to meet you, man. Thanks for coming on. Yeah. Yeah. Great to connect in Austin. Uh thanks for having me. I think uh um you know, Ezra recommended me as well. And so, um yeah, really excited uh to be on here. >> Um Cool. So, I mean, for those that don't know, you're like a serial entrepreneur, right? You one time you were running like 72 businesses or something like that. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it it's funny. Um about 2 and 1/2 years ago um I had about 10 different businesses across 10 different industries. So basically it was apparel, wine, restaurant, Airbnb, coffee shop. I was definitely a serial entrepreneur and I got to a place where I was really broken and um just had to come to like grips with what I really genuinely love and that's marketing, that's storytelling, that's e-commerce, that's digital. And so I was just like, you know what? Um and I just I Ezra and I had met in Miami um around that time too. And uh we started to talk a little bit together and um I just started shutting and exiting closing different businesses just to the get to the point where I could really focus on on Shopify and e-commerce. >> Is that because you saw the best opportunity in that one or is that because that was the one that was more of your passion? Yeah, I mean it's more my passion is what it was. I, you know, I grew up in extreme poverty in Oklahoma. So, I grew up Cherokee. I learned to read, write, and speak Cherokee as a kid. And that really shaped my childhood as you can imagine. But I think when I became an entrepreneur, I had that scarcity mindset to not say no to anything. So, I said yes to everything. And kind of what happened in, you know, 2016, I started my first Shopify brand. I was printing t-shirts in my garage and with every shirt we would donate lunches back to the public schools. In 2020, we paid off the debts for all the families in the in our city in New Mexico. That sparked uh legislation change in New Mexico a year later that no children should have to pay for lunches again or their families. And so through that, I sort of like became, you know, known and and in my community and just got a lot of other opportunities thrown my way. And I just I said yes to everything. >> Now w with these businesses that you were running, you you said yes to everything. >> Were they all successful? >> You know, I would say uh you know, three reach I think I was running three seven figure brands at once. Um and then as you guys know, they're all just you know, you can imagine how capital intensive a winery is or a restaurant is, you know. So like while it kind of looks like success on the outside, it definitely was like getting to a moment where I was having very tough conversations with my accountant. You know, I was like, hey, this is also just a lot to, you know, take on. And so that also like led to like am I really doing the right things here? And so I had to really create a lot of systems and processes, but also like I love building community. I love e-commerce, the Shopify ecosystem. I I really love like these communities and and and and networks and the meetups that we have. Like I really felt like I I' about 2021, I started kind of explore this community a little bit more. And I really I really vied with the people here. And so unlike you know some of the industries I was a part of like this is like the this is definitely like our language. This is like our community. So that's why I kind of gravitated towards this. Hey Norm, I've got a quick question for you. I'm trying to manage all my affiliate and creator programs from Amazon, from Shopify, from Walmart, but it's just a freaking mess. I mean, I've got reporting coming from here and there. There's all these different Slack messages. Do you know if there's like a unified dashboard where I can do this all in one place? >> Yeah, absolutely. And you're right, it is a mess. A lot of brands are complaining about that. But there is a place that has a solution. and it's called Lavanta and they let brands recruit partners, track performance, manage payouts, send product samples, and even run creator programs across every major marketplace all in one place. And guess what? Brands can spend less time on tools and more time making profit. >> Is that the one that you sent me a link for like a 10% off coupon their gold or enterprise plan a few few days ago? >> You got it. Oh, cool, man. I think I've got that link here. Was it lavanta.iomisfits? >> Yep, you got it. >> le van na.iomisfits. >> Awesome. I'm going to go uh go hit them up right now and get that 10% off. >> Perfect. Me, too. So were these businesses were you partners in Were you partners in these businesses or were were you partners? >> Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was responsible for, you know, signing like a $2 million, you know, FDA loan, you know, like whatever you want to call it, right? Like, you know, real estate. Um, yeah. I mean, my my signature, you know, what was on was on the checks and payroll and um it was intense. It was very intense. But, you know, while it, you know, I guess you could say broke me in some ways, I I think I'll never regret that experience in my life again. Like, it taught me so much. It gave me so much depth. It gave me so much opportunity to learn. you know, a lot of times, um, you know, I just I have empathy obviously for small business and you know, just how hard it is running a business and and so I think and I'm not saying e-commerce is easy cuz it's it's another skill that can also break you or bankrupt you if you're not careful. But it did give me appreciation for the systems that e-commerce had versus kind of the the variables that you know like co co was a huge variable in the restaurant industry. You know what I mean? Like there there was just so much um as funny as it sound e-commerce really is is continues to grow and I think as long as you have a good product promotion you know offer like it's a good place to grow long term. Um, I'm a big believer. >> So, running those 10 businesses, you must have got up about a half hour before you went to bed, you know, it must have been crazy. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was one of those things where sleepless nights, you know, you just basically I remember like waking up and I'd go visit my apparel store, then go visit the chili factory, then go visit the winery and go to the restaurant. Like, it was it was just too much. It really wasn't sustainable. Um, I had a part I had a a similar partner in and a handful of these ventures as well. And so, you know, that's kind of probably what kept us going to a degree. Um, but it wasn't sustainable long term. >> So, how did you funnel it down? How did you make the decision to get it down to one business? >> Yeah. You know what's interesting is um when Ezra and I met in Miami, we clicked. It was one of those things where not a lot of people have his background and not a lot of people have my background and they were actually kind of similar in some ways. So, we kind of had like that unique experience between one another where it's like um I'm trying to think of a way to explain it, but it was like one of those opportunities where I imagine if you know you're like a rock band for example and like dude I want to jam with you. I even think I told Ezra that, you know, I was like, "Let's jam together. Like, let's see what we can do together. Let's combine our skill sets." And so, we kind of had that conversation going on for a couple years. And that gave me confidence that like that I was making the right decision, you know, that I I had found a partner that I could really build longterm with over the next, you know, decade or two. And so, that gave me a lot of confidence. And then I just started having hard conversations with my partners. just sit down with them one-on-one, look them in the eyes and just say, "While this may be good, I am not the right person for this at the moment." And you know, that's not easy. But I do believe long-term is the best thing I could have done. I even had to do that with my current partner, you know, at Fresh Chili, you know, because we had the winery together, we had the restaurant together, you know, like, you know, and I was like, "Hey, I just want to concentrate on fresh chili." I think it's our it's our biggest upside that we have um if we focus on it and I just you know I believe in the model that we've built and we're building towards and and again I think it's one of those things where you know whatever you give attention to as you guys know is going to grow and so I I couldn't do that across 10 different businesses so I think I was just doing a disser I think I was being a bad partner by saying yes to too much and even like Ezra and I talked last week it was like one of those things where like, you know, I have to say yes to, you know, to things that make sense, not just for me, but also for him as a partner, you know. So, um, that's kind of how I'm evaluating things today. >> So, the the chilies, are you white labeling that? Are you did you come up with the recipes? Uh, is it your old grandmother's recipe? >> Yeah. >> Use like a co-acker or what what's what's the process? How'd that come to be? >> Yeah, this is a cool story. So, my partner um is a commercial real estate um developer. That's what he's been doing the last 40 years of his life. And him and his wife were making his dad's recipe in their kitchen every chili season. And so, they would make this red chili sauce and they would give it out to his real estate clients. And his real estate clients were like, "This is good." Like, you know, like, "Can we buy this? Like, can we get more?" And he was just making enough to give it out as gifts. So what happened was when that kind of started to compound for them was kind of right at the time where like Oregon Mountain Outfitters which was my clothing company you know we had paid off the debt we were you know we had a huge community following um someone recommended that he he talk to me about building online like you should really talk to Chris and so at that point I think they had hired someone else and they had him on Wix and you know like you just kind of like So, you know, um you know, he called me up and, you know, I I got to looking at the product. My wife had actually got some in our cabinet like that Thanksgiving before. And so, um I was a little familiar, you know, with it. And so, basically, I'm I'm looking at this thing. And if you don't know, Hatch green chili, I mean, it is like it is like addictive. It's like a drug. Like it there's an official smell of New Mexico and that is the flame roasting of Hatch green chili. I think we're the only state in America that has an official smell. So like we love it so much we created an official smell. Okay, here's the other thing about Hatch, New Mexico. You know, it's about 30 minutes north of Los Cruus, New Mexico, which is the second largest city in in New Mexico and right beside El Paso by the border. Um, but what it is, Hatch, New Mexico is the Chile capital of the world, and there's about a handful of families that run that. So, you're going to be born into it or you're going to be married into it. That wasn't going to happen to me. So, like I knew like it was like one of those opportunities. Um, you know, like if you were looking for gold in Colorado or San Francisco or if you were looking, you know, for natural gas and oil, you know, back in the day, that's what Hatch Green Chili is. And I just, you know, everything had been treated so traditional from a retail standpoint. It was all about supermarkets and retail, which is great, but I really saw like an opportunity with my partner like, hey, this could be a year round business. Um, because people would they would get it fresh and they would freeze it, you know, and it's really not the best quality because it's just sitting in your freezer for like months on end until you decide to use it. And so what we actually did is um we would go to the farm. So he he called me up and you know he he was like um could you help me with this? So we started going to the farm having some conversations and I remember one day just in the pickup truck I was like hey man like I don't want a paycheck. I just want skin in the game. And we just decided to have a 50-50 partnership from there that point on. And um that was probably one of the biggest turning points of my life because um you know and I didn't take any money from the business for their first you know couple years. you know, we we we basically just bootstrapped everything. Obviously got it on Shopify, started getting it rolling, really relying heavy heavy on meta ads and Google ads. Um, and it was really kind of while I had this experience behind that, um, you know, um, in the past, I mean, this is different when it's your own money, right? Like you're really kind of like, um, putting everything back into business. And so, basically, we built our own manufacturing plant. We took over the back of an old supermarket. We built our own manufacturing plant, built our own roasters, cooking. I did all the palleting. I did all the shipping department. It was just like, so basically like we do everything but the farming. We had tried do the farming one year. We're not farmers, so we failed miserably, but like we do everything but the farming. So we work closely with the farmer. We're going to go visit the farm tomorrow morning and we'll basically bring the product back. We we hand roast it, we chop it, we cook it, we bottle it, and we ship it to you. And it's a beautiful product in a sense that, you know, if the crop is fresh, you know, you may get that in your house within, you know, 24 to 48 hours after we processed it. So that's why we call fresh chili. >> Is it seasonal? >> Yeah, it's seasonal. So from July until about the first freeze, um, which is about late October, early November. So there is a big processing window which is cool. Like Sriracha for example, they like to do red peppers, right? And so like red peppers is a very very small window of like 6 to 8 weeks. But since we actually rotate all the farms and all the fields, we're actually able to bring online at different stages of July through November um green peppers, uh blended peppers, and red peppers, which is really cool. Oh, so and that's the thing. Red peppers are just a green pepper that's just stayed in the field a lot longer. So, yeah, it's it's a fun business. And I think one of the the biggest inflection points for us is when we started treating chili like wine, my partner, who was our wine maker, do you guys e either of you guys drink wine? >> Uhhuh. Yeah, I do. >> Have you ever had prisoner wine? >> Prisoner wine? No. >> Yeah, prisoner. So, it's you you'd probably recommend or you would recognize the label uh prisoner wine. Um it was uh sold to constellation for like 150 million or something. But the wine maker from that business was my partner um at our winery. And so basically we started to change New Mexico wine to be kind of more, you know, Italian Napa Valley type of quality instead of like sweet touristy wine that New Mexico's known for. And so through that process of harvesting like Cabernet and Merllo and Savanyon Blanc, we actually he turns to me, he's like, "You should treat chili like wine." I'm like, "What are you talking about?" He's like, "Well, you know, mild's vicete, medium is big gem, hot sandia, you know, matador is extra hot." And I was like, you know, that's brilliant. And so it actually took me about 2 years to bring that to life with our facility because it's a very hard thing to do in Chile because when you order hatching chili, people always ask, "Is it hot?" because they don't know what they're getting because the farmers will just send them mild, medium, hot, extra hot, like whatever you want green chili, cool. Here you go. So, no one really knows. So, we started controlling and working with the farmers on the varietals and that was one of the biggest inflection points that really made us an authority in this space because we're we're doing things in small batch and it's very hard to duplicate for anyone else. Are you limited by how much you can these farmers can produce uh on how how big you can scale because you said you you I think you're scaled to eight figures now, but can you go to nine? Is there enough capacity to go to that and keep it this small kind of feel? >> Yeah, I I don't I we can get to nine as as as a company, but not through Hatchreen Chili. And I'll kind of outline what that looks like. So, we're not constrained by again what we talked about Hatchreen Chili, right? Like as long as we're willing to accept hatch green chili and not the varietals, we can continue to get the product year round. Now, Big Jim, which is our most popular varietal, which is a medium pepper, which is in the Guinness Book of World Records for biggest chili pepper in the world, is our top selling product. And we will sell out. We sell out all the time. It creates a lot of demand. We had the farmer plant two fields this year. one of the fields got curly top which means the whole field was ruined. So we you know we're we're at the mercy of God here in a lot of ways right and so like it's one of those things that we were able to create demand with these varietal products but we are able to supply I do know that the biggest ger um um product in America does about 20 million in retail a year. So that's what the TAM looks like from like being number one in grocery stores. Um and so like I know that we um we're able to I you know we're able to do you know 15 to 20 million a year. Like I know that every year as far as our current production because we've upgraded our kettles, we upgraded our bottling line. We've upgraded you know several manufacturing constraints that we've had. So, we can definitely take it to the next level, but it's not a nine figure business. But you know what is a nine figure business? >> What's that? >> The number one pepper in the world is jalapenños. And so for me, you know, um that's sort of what I kind of have my eyes set on long term with this business is um going into different types of peppers and I think we can build probably a you know a nine figure company that way. >> So it sounds like you scaled this pretty fast and When you scale a business, there's either new technology or new something. You've got to cross the chasm. Was there anything during that time while you were scaling that could have killed your business? >> Yeah. I mean, I think the classic answer is meta. You know, I think in 2021, again, we started in 2019. 2021, you had the iOS update. That's when I went to go look for answers. I remember going to like a Geekout event in San Diego. I started getting on X and LinkedIn like just trying to find answers. I I think the Foxwell community with Andrew Foxwell is one of the communities I I I think I've been a member for like four or five years at this point and I just started looking for answers. I think the I think what I did not realize as a business owner and maybe a lot of us didn't realize at the time is that Meta wants 30% wants 30% of your P&L, right? And so like that wasn't something I I I I didn't really understand. And so like the business model for traditional small businesses is 8 to 12% advertising marketing spend. And all of a sudden like you have this platform that's wanting at least 30%. And again you guys got you have guys out there spending 50 to 60% now and scaling hard if they have the LTV subscription behind it. But you know I think that was one of the biggest learning curves. I had to I had to learn what a P&L looked like from an e-commerce standpoint and a lot of accountants did not have that knowledge nor still have that knowledge. I think it's been one of the biggest um hurdles that we've had working with bookkeepers and accountants throughout the years. >> So you grew that on Facebook, but you're competing against Tines and Tabasco and a bunch of other big boys. >> Yeah. And you you're going hard and I know you cut it back later, but you're going hard at first. >> And I don't know if you're still doing this or not, but you're posting like what seven, eight, nine, 10 times a day or something like crazy amount of content. >> How did you Was that you or did you have a content factory spinning this stuff up or and what were you doing? What was that strategy? >> Yeah. Now, I love to talk about this. So basically um from a Facebook standpoint and let me just call this out for anyone watching like I don't understand how people spend millions of dollars on meta and never post on Facebook like like this is like the most asinine strategy like I could even imagine like post on Facebook like there's >> you mean organic post >> organically. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean there there's a huge opportunity on on on Facebook when you treat it right. So again, we have a Facebook group of 37,000 members. Um, you know, we're very intentional about how we build that out into like our post-purchase journey, even like, you know, pre-purchase journey. But I'll tell you this, like to answer your question, um, what we did was very authentic. We were going live videos from the farm, you know, live videos from the kitchen, live videos from the shipping department. And the way that we turned it into a strategy was um was basically like we go to the farm, right? And then we're very intentional to do like a handful of videos um like you know people call them yapping videos now, right? But like we we were very intentional to do like you know talking head videos and then >> you on camera or somebody else? >> My partner and I we would take turns. Yeah. My partner's got like the voice of like Morgan Freeman if he was a cowboy, you know, so him eating a, you know, him him doing it. So, we would do these videos and then one day we're driving up there and I'm like, you know what? Let's do this. I was like, let's let's get a cheeseburger from Sparkies, which is the most famous hamburger joint Hatch. And I was like, let's just pull down the tailgate and let's just film it. And that was the inflection point for us because, you know, we would just take this big old double cheeseburger, we would pour the hatch green chili on it and just eat it and it just went viral. It just went crazy. And so we just started to double down on like taking enchiladas and tacos. I mean, you feel bad for us, right? And just taking them to the farm and just eating these products. And you know what was interesting is people resonated with my partner and people resonated with me and it just kind of worked, you know. Um, again, like he's he's a little older, a little bit more authoritative. Um, I'm probably like someone's, you know, I'm very much a, you know, a regular dude. And so, like, I think that dynamic worked really well. And, uh, so yeah, I was just very grateful for that. But what we would do is we would take those um, you know, those videos, we would make a YouTube video out of it, you know, uh, create a Shopify blog from it. And then the way that I also look at like your product pages on Shopify is your product pages has about 30 data points. If you actually look at it very technically and you take those data points and you turn them into stories, you turn them reals, you turn them into carousels. That's the content engine. I can look at any Shopify PDP and I can break down all the carousel images into stories and reals. I can break down the testimonials into stories and reals. A money back guarantee testimonials. You could tell like I talk about this all day every day like cuz I really do like this is what we do. It's like it's it's very much a content engine where on average we can easily get out 300 pieces of content organically that also gets uh fed into our ad accounts as well. >> Are these short content? These are short little pieces then. So, it's a it's a uh combination of static images, carousel static images, uh UGC, uh you know, reals and static stories that we build out for education educational purposes. Cuz that's the big thing that people don't realize is like when you're spending money on meta and someone clicks on your Instagram, you need to educate them in your stories, your reals, and your UGC like that. People aren't looking at your post. Like people obsess over the grid. Like people don't that's not what Instagram is feeding the algorithm. Like they're feeding stories and reals and so that's what you know you you definitely got to feed um you know Instagram and you got to do it from educational standpoint because they don't know if they're buying from Timu. They don't know if it's a Miami drop shipper they got burned in the past with. So like you know I I believe in a lot of education up front. >> Now you said there's 30 points on a PDP page. Can you tell us a and you kind of rattles say this one I know if they're carousels but I didn't quite follow. So someone listening can you give a few examples of like what those more specific of what that would be. >> Yeah, let's do it. So I can't share my screen but we can all visualize a Shopify product page. We got our main hero image and then we have the title of it. We have the price of it. We have the reviews of it and then we have the add to cart button and maybe like a subscribe and save. Right. >> Mhm. There's five touch points there that I that I just talked about. Now, here's the thing. The smart people who really focus on conversion optimization, they actually stuff their all their thumbnails into their carousel image. So, there's another 10 educational pieces that you need to put in your carousel images for your main product image, right? Because if you install heat maps on any Shopify store, every heat map will return back to you that more people are scrolling through your thumbnails. Why? Because they want to learn about your product. They want a reason to buy and a reason to buy now, right? Or a reason to care and a reason to care now. Like those are the answers that we have to answer with every touch point. So once we have about 10 carousel images and what I started doing was actually um editing one by one videos of myself talking about why our shipping uh is so expensive. And it's expensive because I'm not UPS and I'm not FedEx. I'm just passing on the race to you. This is glass jars with liquid in it. I can't control that. you want to have a conversation, have it with FedEx, not me, right? We put we make a video of that. We put it in a one by one image and we put that in the product carousel. And so when you think about, you know, you got the name, um you got the uh add to cart, the reviews, the description, you you just have and then you have like the testimonials and reviews. Um you got your money back guarantee. Uh you got your customer service phone number. um you know there's and and that's where we kind of get all this data from and all we do is just take each of those uh content pillars and we just extrapolate that into organic social calendar. >> Got it. Got it. Okay. So what then what's a big mistake people are making on Shopify? I mean you see I mean you you I think you are in the top 1% right? Am I mistaken correct on that? So, you're >> you're up there on on sellers on Shopify, but when you see and I know you have your agency >> uh was it move FWD, I think it is. >> Yeah. Move. Yeah. Yeah. Move. >> Uh move forward, I guess, is what that is. >> Yeah. Um so, what when someone comes to you and they're maybe they've been selling on Amazon and they're like, "Hey, I want to >> I'm going to do this Shopify thing because I don't like all my eggs in one basket." And they come with the wrong mentality and the wrong mindset, >> right? >> Uh and expecting. what what do you see is a big transitional thing you got to re-educate them on and and guide them on or a mistake that they've already made that you got to undo? >> Yeah. So, basically like I think there's four pillars for you know a 7 to 8 to nine figure Shopify brand that you got to hit on every day. You got to be very consistent. You know, one is really making sure your website is shoppable, educating, can convert. You know, it kind of starts with there. Even when I was talking about like how do we create organic social? It's from the website. How do we create email automation? It's from the website. How do we create ads? You know, it's really about like marrying that journey through the website. So, like I look at it as like your Shopify store, your email marketing, your organic social um presence, and then like your media buying. So, basically like I just have those four pillars and I would say like a lot of brands are doing two out of four or three out of four. No one's really doing four out of four. And again, I wasn't really looking to build out the agency. Um, it was one of those things that's um, it's about a year old at the moment, but what happened was is like I wasn't an agency operator first. I was a Shopify operator who people in my DMs were like, "Hey, can you do this for me?" And I was just like I brushed people off for a long time. I was like, "No, I don't really do that." And then, you know, I started doing it. Um because like I remember one of my friends with Perfect YT for example um he was like can you create some content for us? So we flew to New York we created some content and one of the ads did 1.2 million in their ad account. And so like we did that then there was a hot sauce brand who has a Tik Tok influencer. Um we got them to seven figures and it was like one of those things okay I do these systems work and that was sort of the proof for us. That was sort of the, you know, the case study for us to kind of build and that was it. I mean, I was just looking at those four pillars and just noticing like when people come to us, they're usually doing one of those four things. I would say 90%. Uh, one of those four things. Like they're here because they're really good at organic social. They're here, they're really good at media buying, you know? So, like that's the thing. It's why I'm saying it in a very simplistic way. I do have 35 people across five continents working for me now. So, like it's not a very simplistic process. It's a very like it's a very detailed pro uh process, but I continue that's what's fun about it is I continue to lead with it with Fresh Chili. What I mean I'm still sending emails out like if you get an email from Fresh Chili, it's sent for me, right? >> You're testing with your own brand and then you across the agency. >> Exactly. Exactly. Like you want a founder ad content, I'm making that founder ad content, right? Like I'm putting that you know that video I talked about like why is our shipping so expensive? you know, I'm making that video and putting on my Shopify page. I that's the one commitment that I have is that I'm not going to be a Shopify operator if I'm going to run this agency. Like, I'm still going to be, you know, in the driver's seat, you know, hopefully leading the conversation. But that is what I've really have noticed. People do one of the four things. Um, and then you have, you know, some of our brands um that do four out of four, and those are usually like the eight to nine figure brands that are that are crushing it. So, >> so a small operator, >> yeah. >> Do they do they have to should they be going to an agency? It it sounds like they're not going to get these four pillars, right? >> I mean, I can only speak from experience where like um you know, what did I do first? I learned social first and then I learned media buying, then I learned email. And we're talking about course of years like right not like not like I mean what's so funny is I've been doing this for 15 years >> and I I'll be honest with you guys I feel like it's starting to click for me after 15 years of doing this you know I mean it is I think the learning curve is is so different and even if you are an agency and you bring on these brands you know a CPG supplement brand is just different from you know a brand that just has a one-time purchase this, you know, lifetime value of a product, right? Like, so you can't be delusional. Like, you really got to understand like, you know, what are their cost of goods? What what is their break even on a monthly basis? Cuz you don't know if they've hired like three cousins and their sister to help run it and they have this like overhead. Like, dude, you got to be honest with me here. Like, what's your break even? Because like if we don't really know these numbers that you got to like pay yourself or make a living, you know? And and I think too like you know we had this one brand like the Tik Tok influencer like wanted to scale up and I had to throw up the red flag like dude you're going to be bankrupt in four weeks if we keep this up. You can't do this. Like it makes no sense. You'll run out of cash. And sure enough they had to go get more money. You know what I mean? Um but we were also also able to pull back and and kind of write the ship and and make some adjustments that we needed to make. But, you know, to I guess to answer your question more cleanly, um, I think I was anti- agency a long time because I was a solo operator doing everything myself, but I'm also I'm very creative. I'm very marketing minded, very storytelling first. So, like it's very natural for me. And that's not the case for I I got off a call with the Shopify operator today that invented a product. It's a really cool product. He invented it, but he's not a marketer, you know? He he doesn't know email like and so I think like even as I'm building out like my company I'm hiring specialists and and I I think Mr. Beast has set this best. If Mr. beast wants to learn something, he hires a specialist or agency for it so he can get there faster. And so I am actually pro pro- agency now for that for that purpose because you just have experts who've been doing it for 10, 15, 20 years that you know and same thing with us. We're like actually on boarding with Amazon right now. Dude, I'm not doing that alone. Like I I don't have any Amazon knowledge. So yeah, I'm >> So why do most agencies fail then? most most people bounce from agency to agency because they're just not getting what they're not getting what they're they were promised or agency just can't do it. What what are you seeing that that why a lot of agencies just fail to deliver and people get all excited and they sign with them and then two or three months later like that that sucks. So, this is the cool part is like when I kind of went down this road of like having an agency, I had to make a commitment to myself in the sense of like, okay, if you're going to be the if you're going to be the face of this business, you better be committed to being on customer calls, you know, being part of the strategy, right? And I think what we see a lot of times is like you kind of have a figurehead brings people in and then you actually have a lot of other people doing the work instead of that person having eyes on it. And I think that's also like we're also having a very tough conversation internally right now where like we have to actually stop onboarding new clients because like the level of service can't be there. So I think that's it. You know um I think a couple of things. Um you know agencies are a great business. I think if you're a young person if you can learn a skill and start an agency that's probably the fastest way you're going to cash flow in this world, right? It's a great business model. But I think people just need to to take it serious and it's not about flexing your ARR on on X or LinkedIn like it's about just being modest and doing the work and keeping your head down and and and really delivering. Um you know cuz people get into agencies at different stages of their life. And I mean I this, you know, I think Warren Buffett said it better than I do, but I mean I definitely say this like the three things that I've seen take people out is like um you know definitely like um liquor, drugs, you know, women taxes like so when you when you give some of these agencies owners, they're almost like professional athletes all of a sudden like oh they have all this extra income if they don't know actually how to manage that, you know, I I'm probably going too deep at this moment, but like, you know, that's that's kind of the the truth. You just don't know, you know, where the stage of of life this person's at. And so, um, the fun thing going back to answer your question more succinctly, too, is like I just made a commitment that I really love doing this and this is really fun. Like, this is this is what I enjoy doing. Like, I don't plan to like exit the Shopify ecosystem. And so now when I have now when I have like uh conversations with people, I I kind of feel them out like where are you going to be in the next decade because I'm going to be here. >> Hey Kev, have you ever felt trapped running a business or just burnt out? >> Yeah, that's happened a time or two. Um how how would I find out if what I have is actually worth something if I'm looking to to exit? Well, I think one of the best things they could probably do is go to an expert that understands the market sentiment right now. First one that comes to mind is is Quiet Light Brokerage. And here's why. They're going to build you up. They're going to understand your company. And at the end of the day, you're going to know how to maximize your valuation. So, the very first thing you need to do is go and get your free confidential uh valuation at quietite.com. and then, you know, let the games begin. >> Awesome. What What was that website again? >> It's quiet.com. >> Awesome. I'm going to head over there. >> What is the uh for Shopify? Let's just switch over there for a second. >> Yeah. >> Let's talk about some of the biggest things that uh a seller could do. uh one of the biggest things and then yeah >> what is the biggest mistake people are doing over on Shopify? >> That's a great question. Um I think the bottleneck that I'm seeing right now is mostly creative and I I think it's been that way for a while. Um I think um the and I think kind of the issue that they're doing is um with AI um you have kind of people starting to turn buttons and switches themselves based on AI recommendations without any context. And I think that's a very very dangerous slope because AI I mean it doesn't know your P&L it doesn't know your bank account. So like it it has no problem taking you to zero without you realizing it. So like I think like you got to be while like AI can supercharge people who have experience. Um I think one of the biggest mistakes that we're seeing is they're they're just trusting AI to kind of make business decisions for them. There's a lot of nuances when it comes to running a businesses that you got to be careful of. Um, and then again, not and when I say creative to to give you a better answer, it's just not invested in their story, you know. Um, obviously founder ads and and whitelisting influencers are what we're seeing work really well this year. Um, but even if you >> whit listing influencers, what does that mean? >> Yeah. So basically the way that like Meta for example like their ad inventory um dries up a little bit based on your audience and look alikes, right? So, the best thing you can do to kind of open up a new channel or open up like a new city, a new location in a new city is to take like an influencers's Instagram page and and then have them talk about your product and then you can run that um uh social post ID in your ad account and whitelist it um so that they basically um and it's however you want to structure. You can structure that they get a onetime fee. You can structure it where like they get an affiliate commission. Um, you know, they can get a percentage of ad spend. You know, it kind of depends on the on the influencer and the creator to do so. But what that that opens up more a ad inventory um on that wide listing influencers audiences, which is really cool. >> Okay, that's cool. >> Yeah. So, we're I I think like those are the two biggest things and and that we're seeing is just that and founder content. And for the for the people who are not, you know, who don't want to be on camera, um, you know, you got to kind of find that that creative angle. Um, and and have people, you know, help you tell your story. So, >> or you get a spokesperson, you know, anime or >> Yeah. >> you know, Uncle Uncle Sam, Uncle John or Uncle Sam or whatever. >> West dog. >> Yeah. to actually be the, you know, the spokesperson, you know, Tony the Tiger. >> Yeah. >> Whatever. Smokey the Bear. Um, that becomes the spokesperson. U instead of the the founder. >> So, what on those on those four uh >> those four levers that you said, a lot of brands come in, they have one, maybe two, very few have all four. >> Which one do you find the they're the weakest on? It I would guess it's email. email, I would say organic social and email. Um, I think or you could even say like on the conversion optimization on on their product pages too. Um, organic social is one of those things that it takes a lot of time and commitment to do, right? So like that excludes like 90% of people just because they don't have the time or money to invest in it. you know, the email side. I think what I've seen, you know, especially for a brand who's been at it for a few years, wanting to get over the hump is like go back into your Shopify customer data. Like we have over 500,000 orders. Like go look there. like you know um the cool thing about AI now is you can actually connect MCP to you know your omnisend account with chat GPT or claude and you can tell you know chat GPT like hey uh build me a segment of people who have not ordered in the last 6 months but who spent over $100 with me. That's a that's that's a fun one I like to run that usually brings in a few thousand dollars. You know what I mean? But like you know just going into um and so that's actually what I did. I actually uh last year I sat down and um over the course of a few months created like a thousand different email segments um that could be used to um bring in income. My my my overall dream with like an Omnisend or any email platform is to basically actually have them automate that for me. Um, I'm I've had this talk with several CEOs, but basically like you have my product page, hero banner, you have the title of the product, you have the description. I just need you to like auto segment the stuff out and just make me money while I sleep. We're not there yet. Um, but that is my overall dream as a uh, you know, Shopify operator. But yeah, I think they're weakest um on going back to their existing customer cuz also to take it one step further um and answer your question from two questions ago. It's like I think people just don't have they don't have messaging for like um new customers every week and they don't have messaging for return customers every week. And I think that's a misconception. It's like you need to have messaging for both. People are just all focused on new customer acquisition. This is Yeah, I I would agree with that. So, you're talking about So, retention flows type of stuff basically. >> So, welcome emails, abandoned cards, um, >> uh, out of stock, uh, founder story emails, uh, that kind of stuff. Have those automations set up? >> Is that something your agency does for some of your clients? Do you do y'all set write those and set those up? Do you use AI in any of that kind of stuff? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, that's what's really cool. Uh, to break down the process for you, we just opened up this department, this email department. Um, obviously we've been doing it with Fresh Chili, which has a million email subscribers and given us a lot of testing, you know, to to do this with. But basically, what how we do it now is um, whenever you on board, what I do is I actually do a a Riverside podcast with a founder. And that's for two purposes. One, I'm getting the brand strategy out of the brand voice. Number one, like that's going to be internal working document. Number two, if the if the audio is good, if the video is good, we might turn that into organic social content, you know, them talking about their product, you know, with their product as B-roll. So, it's kind of a cool process of on the onboarding process. What we do is we actually run this um we created this very in-depth AI um deep research on brands um report. And so we we take the Riverside podcast transcript and then we take the brand intelligence report and the brand intelligence report takes about 20 to 30 minutes to run through Claude. And what at that point is we we feed it the transcript uh once it has all the data of like what people say about it on Reddit, you know, uh what are the reviews, what are the competitors, you know, price points, and then I have another document uh of just kind of like like kind of like a DTC top 1% marketing, you know, playbook. And I'll just without giving it away, I'll just generally call it that, right? And so basically just all the best practices in DTC for the last 5 years, you know, add that to it as well. And then what we actually do is we actually have Claude go through and create um about 30 different emails um automations from the get-go. And so um um half will be designed and half will be from the founder voice. And so and then obviously we'll layer in the SMSs in that. We take that data and then we in Figma we build it on Figma wireframe and then we send it over to the client for approval. They give us feedback on the mostly the messaging you know and then we go into the design phase um in Figma as well. So why AI helps it's still very intensive still takes a lot of work in the design and I mean we basically have we we have someone um who's just basically running you know kind of strategy um you know for email automations email campaigns and kind of where we're at right now um since we're going into Q4 um we're actually kind of in a similar vein creating all this uh strategy through December 31st. Um, again, the with the focus on new customers and and return customers on a weekly basis as well. So, it it it's it's pretty nerdy. We geek out over this stuff. Um, but it's it's it's really effective and and again, like the cool thing is like we we've done a lot of this with fresh chili and then, you know, once we kind of have success with it, we roll it out. I think some push back that we've had it's like well you know your food your CPG can this work for other brands and we have seen it work for other brands because I mean my my biggest belief system just in marketing I think half the bottle is just showing up in front of the customer right like I mean most people they don't post they don't you know they don't create content like there's this paralysis that a lot of brand owners have so I'm always fighting like let's just get it out there you we can always delete it. We can always change it. We can AB test it. We don't know until we put it out, you know, like. So, I would say, okay, let me ask you a question. Three questions ago. The biggest problem Shopify brand owners have is their own ego. Number one. That's it. That's it. 100%. It's just their own ego. They get in their way. They, "Oh, I don't like that." Well, I don't care what you like. I'm going to put it out there. I'm going to test it and I'm going to see what the feedback is. Then, we can have a discussion if you like it or not. Because I guarantee you, if it makes you $1.2 $.2 million. You're really not going to have a ego at that point. So, >> no, you have an ego that I knew what I was doing. I knew what I was doing and it was my idea. What was it? Chris, >> what's the what's the average cost for your product? >> Yeah. So, on average, it's 1095 as as a jar of chili. >> So, you're doing eight figures at a 1095 with 1095 product. >> Yeah. >> That's crazy. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've we've definitely like um you know, it it's it's one of those things where last year was our biggest year and this back this year will be good for us as well. Um but you know, when we had to install new bottling line, how when we started to install a new manufacturing um you know, kettles and everything in the process, we definitely slowed down um this year on purpose. We spent I think 40% less on meta. I think it's 40%. It might be 60, but I think it's 40% less on meta, but this also like doubled down in my conviction of like we're actually more profitable and actually um I just published the numbers yesterday, but we're up 8% over year to date last time last year. Um why spending 40% less on meta. But like what happened was is like when we weren't trying to scale as aggressively and I got to really get into the data of our existing customers and really talk to them. Um that was just a a huge light bulb moment. It's just like now when we start to start to scale again cuz I think we're doing an 8x on on meta as a rorowaz again no overattributes. I don't you know I think that's very much an inflated number but um that's what it we know reports in triple well but it is one of those things where like for me it's it's it's good to know that I have a pulse on my customer um which again why I think you know really makes or breaks the Shopify brand is that connection between the brand owner and the customer >> and you you publish like all your dirty laundry sometimes on LinkedIn and stuff like don't you like you put out Yeah, >> here's my here's my ugly rorowaz and you kind of explain why you did it and like you you you don't hold anything back. You're very transparent on like this and >> um why do you do that? Does does that does that help uh adear people to you and get you people for the agency or does that just like just that's just who you are? Like I just want to show it and like help people understand that this is not all uh roses and champagne. Yeah. I mean, I think it goes back to two and a half years ago. Like I I I posted that by accident. Two and a half years ago in in a sense of like I posted it looking for help. The numbers weren't as pretty. They were pretty ugly. Can >> you tell for the audience? Can you tell what you posted? Maybe they didn't didn't see it. >> Yeah. So, basically what I do is I post uh the last 365 days, the last 30 days or the year to date, the last 30 days and the last seven days. And what I actually post is like our me, our conversion, our website visits, our community growth, um our rorowaz on meta, on Google. And so when I actually first published that, it wasn't a prettyl looking number, but I I posted it, you know, kind of looking for help. Again, I didn't have an agency at that point, right? Like, so it was like one of those things that I had some really cool people, you know, come alongside me. I mean, um, and and and just give some, you know, some pointers and some advice, you know, and you had like I remember Sean from Ridge, um, Zach, you know, stuck from Homestead. Obviously, Ezra has always been there, you know, but it it was really cool to see these guys who were, you know, ahead of me um in a lot of ways really take time to be like, okay, they do they did recognize it wasn't a flex because they understand numbers. And they were like, you know, why don't you try this or why don't you try that? And so, I think what happened was is like to your point, like it did provide a level of transparency, but it also it provided me accountability that I actually like had to grow the agency. And I think it's one of the best things I did, you know, um was just publishing it because it really held me accountable. It made me a better operator because I knew that I was going to have to answer for my Monday morning posting of our metrics for the week before. Um the only friction it's caused internally is um not to post our ad spend because, you know, after we got over seven figures in ad spend, you know, um then you just have all these software and companies and agencies know what you're working with. So, so, >> oh yeah, you want to go on this shout ride? You want to come to the Hamptons? You know, definitely like um so um so I I I stopped publishing um the ad spent, but I've been uh I've been publishing everything else and and it does help I think clients now too. Like I mean people understand, you know, I I'm an operator and and uh I'll continue to do it and you know um you know when I launch another Shopify brand I'll I'll do it. I don't know if I'll publicly name the Shopify brand, but I I'll like Brandex building. I still want to kind of have a heartbeat on it. I think it's good for accountability at least for me. So >> So let's talk about more numbers. What numbers are founders following too closely? What numbers should they follow instead? >> Yeah, I mean they're following the inattribution platform numbers too closely for sure. I mean, I can't tell you how many P&L meetings I've sat through with my accountant where we've literally extrapolated out like Omnis and Meta and Google and, you know, Zipify and I and then when you, you know, you do all the rorowaz, you're like, well, this shows I made more money than what's actually on the P&L, right? Or that's even in my Shopify store. You right, reporting in my Shopify store. So like I think people look at in platform numbers too much to guide the ship. um you know especially when it comes like the meta in Google and I think like >> what are you saying there just for the audience listening start to cut in just make point >> is that you may may show 24 meta may take a a credit for 24 sales >> when in fact there's six sales that actually came directly from meta and some of those others might have been from somewhere else but they showed up in the middle pixel because they got co co-mingled in there right it dilutes uh that's I just want to explain that so that's why >> I can show you made more than what your P&L shows. >> Exactly. I mean, I I know whenever I send out an email, my meta um rorowaz is always going to look better. Always. Always. Like it's it's just like, you know, it's like taxes and death. Like you send out an email, your meta rorowaz is going to look great. You know, meta like, "Yeah, I got that. I got that for you." And I I think like I what I try to like coach a lot of Shopify operators now because that's kind of what we have in our book of business is like you know it's kind of like newer Shopify operators is like you know it's really looking at it out of more blended approach. um you I I don't question that the customer journey probably started on meta and I don't question that you know an omniscent email closed them and I don't question that the popup that we used also helped right and I don't question like Shopify helped like I don't question that they were part of the customer journey cuz if you were to buy you know a pickup truck for example you're going to go on the website you know you're going to drive down Main Street you know you're going to see the billboard you're going to hear the radio ads like you know there's all these attribution points that you're going to buy a Ford pickup it is what it is right but like you know and so I think it's the same with Shopify is like understand and that's why I'm a big fan of like don't do everything I mean if you don't need to be on Tik Tok shops dancing like don't go on Tik Tok shops dancing bro like you know it's a really like volatile platform to be on like you're going to be on the phone with your CSMs every day on you know why did I get banned why did I get flagged like like you know try to do just try to focus on meta and Google especially you know in Amazon if if that's your playbook to 10 million and then like after that you can kind of look at different but so if you just know you're just spending on meta Google you know Clavio Omisen like just just know that's your blended number and and and really kind of focus on that. So, and to your point, like they got to know their cost of goods, they got to know their shipping expenses, they got to know their break even. Um, and that's what we really just try to like dial in with people is like, um, you know, and I think too like it's just every stage like it's really fun getting zero to seven, but then once you get to the 5 million mark, it gets really kind of heavy and hard, you know? So, like you feel very cash poor at that level, right? So it's like um whereas like maybe you were cash flowing the 0 to7. So it's just a different ballgame at every stage. >> Norm's big into packaging and labeling and making a difference and justifying pricing. What what do you guys do >> value >> perceived value on that? You're 1095, but is there something take that same product and change up the packaging and that and get it to 14.95 or 1995 or something? Uh, and or is that just pricing it out of the market uh for what your customers would pay? >> Yeah, I mean, I'd be happy to have a conversation oneonone with you, Norm, for sure. Um, I'm not I'm not against it, but I do remember that we tried to start off with like branded boxes and, you know, branded, you know, packaging tape. And I mean, the thing about it is, have I sold $30 million worth of chili? Yeah, sure. But like 25% of that was shipping, you know? just like, you know, I mean, it's it's it sounds like a big >> You get lots of rewards from uh igloo coolers and stuff from uh UPS. Huh. >> Yeah. Right. You know, and so it's like one of those things that's like it's that's the unglamorous unsexy part of like Shopify is like especially when you have a heavy glass product for a liquid. So, you know, and then we also have to invest in like these clamshells, you know, it's not just like we get to put something in a box and ship it and call it a day. It's like no, we got to put it in clamshells, then we got to put it in a box. We do have like you know customer touch points of like letters or QR codes or business cards that you know go into like the different marketing inserts to into it. Um but you know uh you know shipping has definitely been one of the hardest pain points. We lost money on shipping for probably 5 years. We've been in the black and shipping in the last two years um which has been great. And so it is one of those things that we just have tried some branded stuff. Um there are some competitors in our space that they could buy from that does have branded products that gets confused. So that that's a real reality for sure. But um you know I I think you know for us like we've always felt like in survival mode for the last five you know the the first five years you know and we've been able to breathe a little bit the last two. I'd love to talk to you about it because uh surprisingly enough, you could take similar product and spend very little difference on packaging and get a heck of a lot more. >> We've proven this time and time again. So, yeah, let's touch base afterwards. >> Yeah. Norm did it with dorm with a knife was a was a $20 knife and they rep$60 to $60 to$120 or what was it? It was uh so we took this one knife. It was clamshell. It was a it was a nice knife, >> but it was in a clamshell. Just said, "Hey, let's put it in a nice rigid box, cut it out, laser cut it, have a magnetic clasp." It cost uh just a few bucks extra >> and then it was originally going out at 49 bucks. Um we took it up $10 a week without losing traffic, got it up to 124 bucks, >> and And it sits still to this date between 99 and 124. Then we went back to the manufacturer. We said, "Hey, you got a similar knife?" And they just hammered it. It was same knife. >> We just reversed the color. This was the premium line and selling same same cost 16 bucks and then uh selling for 224. >> Wow. Yeah. I'm going to send you both a gift card. Um, that way you can check out the whole experience yourself, but also at the same time like I definitely have like a premium like salsa brand that I'm trying to spin up as a new Shopify store that would be great for this conversation. >> Perfect. >> Yeah, we'll definitely do that. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I got just one last question for you. Um, >> you know, you talking about the agency stuff earlier getting into that. >> Yeah. >> Do you find that I mean I we deal with a lot of agencies and stuff on our side, you know, uh, because we're well known in the Amazon space especially. Yeah. >> Um, >> what rule, agency rule that's out there that most agencies are are harped by? This is a ironclad rule that's basically you're saying, "Dude, that's dead. That just quit doing that." >> Oh, yeah. I I think I think they're overextending on AI and um you know, uh I I think that's one of the biggest eye openeners for me. >> Um I think I alluded to this earlier. I I do believe AI has made almost feel like like supercharged as as an operator, but it's just because I have so much experience and I have so much nuance of how to guide it, right? Like I'm I'm like getting behind an F1 car and I'm like cool, like I know how to drive this, right? Whereas like you're basically giving you know um you know AI to people who just don't have experience or nuances who have not had to spend their own marketing dollars on meta ads that are doing it for other people you know who've never opened a Shopify store who you know have their own Shopify email agency and there's nothing wrong against it doesn't mean that they can't do it but like I think when you're just overextending in AI without the experience um I think that's kind of you know one the and I think internally too like we had to flag we were onboarding all the software like AI this AI this this year for the first six months and like guys we're stopped this is done I just started like you know um cancelling like all the virtual credit cards just like boom boom like no this is not this is not doing anything for our business except just being a distraction on a weekly basis and so um we still use AI like I talked about like but it's very like you know how do we create a system and And I just want a weekly repeatable system within this process, you know, and if we need to refine it in 6 months, great. But like, you know, I I I think I think people need experience over AI right now. >> Yeah, I think so. I I agree with you. I I equate AI to being like a director of a movie. You know, if you look at Christopher Nolan that just did the Odyssey, great movie, but >> um he's got experience as a director, so he knows how to craft that, but he's not the guy telling the camera guy how to shoot how to, you know, what's what K tell K to put the lighting at or whatever. He's got a team around him, but he knows how to do the vision and the big picture. >> And he he wrote the script, so he can guide that movie to where it needs to be. And I think the same thing as an AI, like you said, there's 22 people in the world that can drive an F1 car. If you're one of those 22 people, >> let them drive the F1 car. Everybody else is driving, you know, Pintos or Toyotas or whatever. And that's what's happening in AI is >> AI is helping people do things, but it's not helping them do them necessarily right or better or the best that they can be. with the right director with the right experience like what you just said you have >> can guide AI in amazing ways. >> Yeah, I mean it's been life-changing for me. Don't get me wrong. Like AI and Shopify have been life-changing for me and it's really exciting time to build. Um but as I have and I'm mentoring you know um people who've been with me you know 5 years 3 years a year like I I see I see the deficiencies you know they they give me a report and I'm just like there's no nuance to this report. It's basically just clawed output you know it's just like that's not what a business owner wants to see. They don't care about that stuff you know. So, and I I think that people are just like they're just, you know, just because you can use it doesn't mean you should use it. And that I think that's the balance we're we're we're learning inside, you know, ourselves right now. But from a Shopify brand owner perspective, um it's been a lot of fun, you know, to be able to create like Shopify blogs and in chat GPT or, you know, create, you know, connect your Omnis to Chat GPT. Like I I think as a solo Shopify operator, it is going to be a lot of fun. um uh you know and so yeah it's it's like I said you know it's like anything it's just it's a tool uh but the more experience you have with that tool the better you'll be. Hey Kevin King and Norm Ferrar here. If you've been enjoying this episode of Marketing Misfits, thanks for listening this far. Continue listening. We got some more valuable stuff coming up. Be sure to hit that subscribe button if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast player. Or if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify, make sure you subscribe to our channel because you don't want to miss a single episode of The Marketing Misfits. Have you subscribed yet, Norm? >> Well, this is an old guy alert. Should I subscribe to my own podcast? >> Yeah, but what if you forget to show up one time? It's just me on here. You're not going to know what I say. >> I'll I'll buy you a beard and you can sit in my chair, too. We'll just You can go back and forth with one another. Yikes. But that being said, don't forget to subscribe, share it. Oh, and if you really like this content, somewhere up there there's a banner. Click on it and you'll go to another episode of The Marketing Misfits. >> Make sure you don't miss a single episode because you don't want to be like Norm. All right, we are at the top of the hour. That went fast. >> That was too much fun. Uh Chris, uh if people want to reach out to you or learn more about you or get buy some bottles of uh of chili, what what's the best way or all the above for them to do that or check out your agency or whatever? >> Yeah, I'm everywhere at Chrysling Social. So, like just anything on social, you can find me there. And then go to fusschillyco.com. Little hint, if you DM me, you want a gift card, I will send you a gift card. It's a little it's a little thing that I do uh no matter what. So, um I I give gift cards out like candy. So, um if you do if you do follow me, just send me and I'll send you a gift card. >> Awesome. >> That's awesome, man. I appreciate it. Appreciate you doing that. That's cool. >> Yeah. All right, we got one last question for you, Chris. And at the end of every podcast, we like to ask our misfit if they know a misfit. >> Yeah, I definitely know a few misfits. Um, you know, um I think, you know, it'd be really fun uh to interview like Drew Davis, who's the Tik Tok influencer I was talking about. Uh he goes by the name of Crippling Drew. He just turned 21. um he has cerebral palsy and he um I think got a B on his high school paper of starting a hot sauce brand and the teacher told him like it could never happen. So the hot sauce brand is um on track to do anywhere from three to $5 million this year and he's been on an ESPN, he's been on Kelly Clarkson, he's been like on Theo Vaughn and you know so he did an Iron Man with his cousin. So, I think he'd be a great misfit cuz he uh he's a little unhinged and it's a lot of fun to to work on his creative cuz he doesn't care. >> We like the unhinged. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> We'll reach out to Barry. Barry will reach out. See if we can put us in touch. That would be awesome to have him on. I appreciate that. >> Yeah. I'm happy to make an intro. >> All right, Chris, that's it. You're off the hook. >> All right. Thank you, guys. >> All right, Chris. We'll see you later. Appreciate it. All right. >> Thank you. Ah, Norm, that was that was good stuff. It's it's nice to talk to someone that's in the weeds, an operator that gets the big picture and gets the uh uh down down, you know, the down and dirty as well, and it's just says it like it is. >> Yeah, exactly. Uh lots to be learned there. There's going to be a bunch of 3minute nuggets for our uh second YouTube channel. >> Yeah, there's there's quite a few uh quite a few. And then good good stuff from Chris. I'm I'm glad uh glad I I met him uh back in June, I think it was. And then Ezra, I guess, uh recommended it as well. I didn't I had no idea that Ezra knew him as well. That's But that's that's good. Um cool, man. Well, so if people want to learn more about how this Marketing Misfits deal doohickey works, how how do they how do they see like some other episodes or rewatch Chris's or what do they want to do? >> Uh that's simple. All you have to do is go over to YouTube and go to Marketing Misfits podcast. Like I said about this episode, there's going to be a lot of threeminute clips. If you want to see that, you go over to YouTube again and Marketing Misfits clips and we uh slice up a bunch of different clips and put them up there every week. So >> that's on the top the talk tickers, too, right? >> Yeah, we got some on talk ticker or Tik Tok. I'm old. I whatever that is the dance thing. >> The dance. Yeah, I think there there's also check out our channel on Tik Tok. And then if you uh don't have time to listen to the whole podcast and you just want to uh get a quick summary, we do the Misfits newsletters at misfits.news every Wednesday. It summarizes uh it takes one current podcast and one past one and we so we've been doing this uh for for several years and it'll it'll put those together similar topics together and it's a great quick uh 5 10 minute read or even sometimes I get it norm you know we we have all these guests on the podcast and sometimes I forget someone says something really great sometimes like today with Chris I wrote a couple things down um but sometimes they'll say something I just space it and then the newsletter comes out and I it's got the graphic in there that Kelsey makes and stuff. It's like seven tips to blah blah blah blah blah. >> And I've actually taken those some of those like ah totally forgot about that. Need to add that into our processes or our system. And so the newsletter is is super valuable. So check that out. It's totally free once a once a week. misfits.news >> and we're a little biased. >> Uh yeah, >> what the heck? >> Else is saying the same thing. The other people right >> they're saying the same thing. So it's not just us. Uh we have we have the testimonials to prove it and uh and to prove that we're going to be here. Check it. Just tune in again next Tuesday and you'll see that there's another brand new episode of the Marketing Misfits podcast. So hit that subscribe button, follow it. If you like this episode with Chris, share it with a friend and spread the love. Spread the word. >> All right, everybody. See you later. >> See you. Take care.