HexClad Director of Paid Media Talks Strategy, Gordon Ramsey, and More

HexClad Director of Paid Media Talks Strategy, Gordon Ramsey, and More Speaker 3: Welcome back to another episode of Chew on This. Today I'm joined by London Spilker, who is the Director of Paid Marketing at everyone's favorite cookware brand, HexClad. London, appreciate you taking the time to join us today. For those who haven't heard of you before or have seen you on Twitter or LinkedIn, would love a quick intro. Where did you start? What do you do? And what are you currently up to? Speaker 1: Absolutely, yeah. Thank you for having me on. Like I mentioned, excited to finally meet you in person. You know, I've seen you around the DTC space. Obviously, Avi, big name in the in the e-com world. Yeah, I'm London, currently Director of Paid Media at HexClad. I have been here for about three years, just over three years now. I have about eight to I have nine years experience in e-com in general. My story is actually a little, I feel like a little crazy in comparison to other people in the space, traditional college degree and into e-com. I started off by seeing those dropshipping ads on Just different ad platforms and was hooked. I thought it was like a way to get rich quick, I guess, quote unquote, on paper. Had a little bit saved up from the crypto craze. Got into crypto early, which was a blessing. Knock on wood, still have a good chunk locked away in the vault. Yeah, saw those ads and then ended up losing like 10k trying to sell this little dog costume on my first ever Shopify store and then realized like I needed to to find a mentor. I think everybody like should find a mentor. I've heard that a ton in the in the e-com world and just I mean Any business ever, if you're trying to break into a niche, like finding a mentor is the best thing you can do for your, you know, just breaking into a niche, I guess. So I found my first mentor, this guy on Fiverr. Moved down to San Diego shortly after. Just told him I would work for free until I proved my value and then I went to a different company and then did about a million dollars in revenue with one of their products from zero. That was a massive win for my personal career. And then after that, ended up moving back to up north in Idaho where I currently live and started my own brand, which did like 150K in revenue in like the first couple of months. Ended up getting sued is a long story, but had to discontinue that one. And then bounced around a few different agencies and made my way to HexClad. I think it's funny too, like the way I got intro to HexClad was I hit up Connor, the current head of growth. And mentioned like, hey, love what you're posting. Like, let's just chop it up on a call. And he was super open to that. And we had one call for about 30 minutes. And then he mentioned he was going brand side at HexClad and jump ship. And over three years, never looked back. I've learned the most I've ever learned in my whole entire career. Yeah, it's been an amazing three years. Speaker 3: Connor's awesome, by the way. I've had so many conversations with him, you know, on Twitter. I think the whole the whole team over there is fantastic. Speaker 2: Before we get started, a quick word about today's sponsor, Instant. As a brand, you know you're spending real money to drive traffic to your site. Problem is, 90% of the traffic is anonymous. You don't know who they are, and once they leave, it's pretty much impossible to get them back. That's where Instant comes in. It identifies up to 10 times more of those lost shoppers, so you can send more abandonment emails, build stronger retargeting audiences, and actually win back that lost revenue. Liquid IV, 3rd Love, Truly Beauty, these massive brands use Instant to get an average ROI of 21.7X and Instant guarantees you a 4X ROI or your money back. That's right, 4X ROI. With the start of Q4, there's no time to waste. Triple your email sales and lock in smarter retention today. Just go to instant.one slash chew to claim 50% off your first 60 days before this offer expires. That's instant.one slash chew. Now, let's get back to the episode. Speaker 3: I guess the first question I really have is just like, give us some visibility into what a brand of this size actually looks like, right? So for example, you have Connor, who's the head of growth, right? And then you're also director of paid marketing, right? Like, how is everything structured? What's everyone's like kind of responsibility and who's like taking care of what? Speaker 1: So it's a good question. It's a hard one. Initially, like when we all started off, I mean, Connor and previously Cam were jumping ship from agency side. So most of the long term team actually jumped ship at the same time for HexClad. First time going brand side for all of us and like we were spread thin in every single direction. There was a lot of low hanging fruit in the early days. I'd say the first The first full year was like the biggest growth just from, I guess, the easiest wins, you know, whether that was retention or Paid Media or CRO, really any one of those niches, like we were covering together. And then we obviously decided to start building out these individual teams. The first one we really built out was retention. I think that definitely was a massive integral part to our success. You know, HexClad is very first-time purchase driven and heavy. We're less driven on LTV. We're, you know, Avi, for example, massive LTV basis, but Retention was one of those things where we were historically using agencies and outside vendors and partners. And that was the first breakthrough from our internal team. And from there, we broke into creative. So, I mean, all in all, like, talent acquisition was the biggest step in the right direction. And that was the, so the first one year, essentially me, Connor and Cam just really balls the wall against every single category in terms of growth. And then that second year was really driving deep into talent acquisition, acquiring the best people in the space for each one of these top tiered growth niches. So Creative hired some insane talent in that department. Retention hired some great people there too, and then website. And those three categories really propelled us to the next level. We were still reliant on agencies to a certain degree. And eventually, like as of right now, we're present stage fully internal, no agencies across the board, which is a massive win, especially at our scale. It's hard to, you know, phase out agencies and get the most out of your internal team. And I think that's just Allowed us to become light years ahead, just compounded learnings and interest and team capacity. Speaker 3: Makes sense. Coming from the agency side and working with a brand at, you know, with the caliber that HexClad has, right? Very, very notable brand, very notable celebrity backing. I would imagine the brands that you were working with on the agency side was maybe the opposite, right? So it's like you kind of start with paid and build your way up. How was that experience, right? Coming from kind of this like paid world and then coming into a brand where you're saying that paid was low-hanging fruit, right? Walk us through that. Like what did, what was the, I guess the breakthrough that you guys looked at and saw and said, hey, like we need to double down here. Like the brand's already thriving. How can we use paid to elevate this and escalate this? Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, paid was already And has always been a part of HexClad and its success. I think once Gordon became involved with a brand, that's where Paid Media hyper accelerated. I think any brand that goes through a point in time where they, you know, either have access or hired on specific talent to that degree. I mean, you take Gordon Ramsey, for example, one of the best chefs, I mean, if not the best chef in the world, and especially backed by his organic presence. And presence in the culinary space, like it'll multiply performance tenfold. And that's what we saw. You know, it's easy to say like HexClad is built on preconceived success, which I think is definitely a fact. You know, we have a great product. Great team, even at the start. Great founder who knew exactly what he was going to do. And he was the core purpose on why Paid existed even way back when at the start of HexClad. But I do think that definitely made it harder. It set the bar for performance, specifically high. You know, any paid brand, they have multiple different avenues. Hexglide was primarily reliant on paid media for a pretty substantial amount of time. And when we hit that point of hyper-acceleration with performance, I think measurement became the new key to success, an instrument that we could use to accelerate that growth even further. And that's where our measurement methodology is super robust. I think it's light years ahead of most brands, to be completely honest. And that's partly due to just the The ceiling that we're currently set at, the expectation level of performance and how to get the next 1%, 5%, 10%, 50% growth out of our current expectation level is the name of the game. Even now, more than ever, 1% increase at our scale in terms of efficiency is going to be a massive net contribution. Speaker 3: That makes a ton of sense. So over time, how does the methodology change? If you're coming from like, okay, paid is the sole driver for the business and you have this accelerant that is Gordon Ramsey and then now it's like, okay, the game has completely changed and it's almost like whatever we do run on paid seems to just be working. How are you guys How did you guys go from like, all right, well, we can just measure within platform and we can, you know, whatever dollar goes in comes out. How do you change the methodology and what do you start to look at when you do get to that size and that volume that HexClad is at? Speaker 1: Another tricky question. I think it breaks down into a few different categories. Measurement in general, when you're talking about paid media mix or high level top line, like how much are you going to spend on X day or X period, that's broken down into a few different categories. I think as it relates to, you know, having Gordon Ramsey and that direct impact on our baseline and setting our expectation level so high, we needed to step back from Gordon Ramsey in general. Like we went through a phase of launching Almost all of our weekly sprints were inclusive of Gordon Ramsey to an extent. So A, we were over-reliant on Gordon Ramsey and B, all of the creative that we launched in different categories, whether that was, you know, a traditional micro creator that we were whitelisting from, you know, obviously it's not going to look as good as Gordon Ramsey. So we went through a pretty decent phase of We're renegotiating our core metrics per category within our paid media stack, primarily driven by meta, but now our controls, which is what we call them, span across all of our paid media channels. And that's where, you know, at a high level, we're not going to compare Gordon Ramsey to a micro creators that we just launched. I mean, the same reason why you wouldn't compare the same creative this year versus the same period of time last year. Things changed. Different types of assets serve a different purpose. You know, in most brands, you can realistically set this baseline as static versus video. Most of the time, static drives more middle to bottom of funnel. Let me rephrase. Most of the time, it drives a more middle of funnel to bottom of funnel purchase intent, whereas a video generally drives more awareness top of funnel intent. And we've separated most of our categories by funnel, but also whitelisted creators, even asset type or style. We have, I believe it's 60 different individual controls now that we look at on a weekly basis that will determine whether or not, you know, we scale a certain asset or turn an asset off. I'd say, yeah, 99% of the time a Gordon asset is going to outperform, but You know, as we've had this partnership for a substantial period of time, our net new visit percent, for example, is a metric that we look at pretty intentfully, like this year versus prior years. It's one of our core decision-making factors when it comes to scaling individual assets outside of like one-day click ROAS or any click window attributed ROAS or MTA base. Our Gordon assets are falling in terms of net new visits in general, and that's where we need to become less reliant on Gordon. That's one of the core initiatives that we began to expand into the second year of me joining HexClad. Now moving into four, we're heavily diversified. We forecast Similar to the level of scrutiny and degree we do with our just media mix in general, like we're forecasting out our creative sprints on a quarterly basis and then breaking those down into monthly and weekly cadences to make sure we're hitting, you know, our 65%, 35% evergreen ratio between statics and videos. And that breaks down even further into different personas, different category types, different Really anything you can you can think of as long as it has measurable success in the past and statistic numbers behind it. So for example, like we're not going to start measuring, you know, black background 12 piece set with 30% off for that offer versus Gordon Ramsey. You know, we don't have enough data within the black background 12 p set static niche to have a static control there. So making sure you have enough data to back your controls is a massive thing. You know, initially when we brought out these controls, we tried to go hyper granular, but, you know, eventually moved back and found that sweet spot of How much data do you have? Is it relevant to compare that specific asset to this control? And that's where I think most brands can get caught up is A, going hyper-specific or B, being too broad, like saying, hey, we have this massive influencer and we're going to try to compare every single video to our account-wide average, which is definitely not the name of the game. You need to focus on creating controls that make sense for your brand. Speaker 2: Quick break to talk more about today's sponsor, Instant. Are your abandonment flows making at least 20% of your site's revenue? If not, you're in trouble. Most retention tools have bad short term memory and even worse opt-in rates. If you don't catch an email opt-in within hours, that data's gone forever. So why pay for someone to be on your list if your abandoned emails never fire when they come back? Instant fixes that. It captures those emails, remembers them forever, and then sends shoppers the exact messages they need to come back and buy. It takes minutes to go live. There are no contracts and they even have a 4X ROI guaranteed or simply your money back. Try it now at instant.one slash Chew and receive 50% off your first 60 days for a limited time only. That's instant.one slash Chew. Now, let's get back to the episode. Speaker 3: On the creative, like, diversity and output side of things, at this size, right, and especially post-Andromeda update, right, how are you guys calculating or figuring out what is the actual output that you need to, one, maintain, I'm sure you guys are spending a ton, but maintain that level of spend, and then also figure out ways to always become more efficient? Speaker 1: Absolutely. I think it all starts with your StatSig number, which I think can, you know, one level deeper than that is essentially asking yourself, what amount of spend do I need to spend per creative, whether that's concept or individual variant to start the evaluation process? Early on, we were, I mean, even now we spend a ton of money on producing each individual creative. And that's where we want to have learnings behind every single concept that we launch. You know, other brands test where, you know, it could be a shotgun approach where you drop everything in ASE and some ads just don't ever end up getting any spend. It's not really our approach because we do put a whole lot of thought and learnings behind each individual creative test. So we know we're doing everything right on the creative side that we're producing assets that are high quality enough to warrant a specific amount of minimum spend per asset. You know, for us, it's $2,500 for each asset. Before we even start to think about evaluating, A, because our CAC is much more high and AOV is much more high than normal brands. So, for example, like Avi, you guys lower AOV, lower CAC to an extent in comparison to HexClad. And our consideration period definitely has a factor on that StatsIG number. And then from there, you can back into a weekly basis. So, you'll take your weekly total forecasted spend for that specific period in time. And then you'll take your testing budget, whether that's, you know, traditionally I've seen 30% in most accounts, whether or not, you know, you run into a period of time where all of your assets are fatiguing, you'll increase your spend, your testing spend. So for example, 30% from there, you'll back into dividing that number by your stat SIG number. So for us, it's 2,500. So if we have, you know, 25K, for example, in any given week, that'll be 10 specific creatives that we can launch. And I feel like most brands have the opportunity, especially at scale, where that output number, quote unquote, on paper with the back of that napkin math I gave there is going to be like, 20 to 30 per week, you have the potential to hit that. And that's where I think finding a middle ground of like, hey, how many creatives will not overwhelm or disrupt our creative production team and output as of right now? Do we need to hire on more resources to fulfill, you know, our capital management for creative testing? Those are the two big questions I ask and have specifically asked over the first two years of HexClad is figuring out that right creative output volume. But at a high level, you can start there just with the math portion. And then from that, obviously, over time, you'll figure out like what matters more. And it's definitely fluctuating. There's not a specific number that will fit any brand and is one size fits all. And then B, it really matters about internal performance. Like, hey, has your hit rate gone down over the last three months? And do you guys need to spend more on creative testing in general? And then that becomes a question of, hey, let's look at outside resources, whether that's our internal team isn't producing creatives that are scaling at a rate that we've seen previous numbers. Like, do we need to branch out into different editors, different freelancers, different agency partners to help get our hit rate back to historically high frequency levels? I think hit rate is something that People can oftentimes overlook. It's A, easy to diagnose media buying issues at a glance. You know, one of the graphs that we have internally that we look at on a pretty frequent basis to identify creative issues is our hit rate graph. So, on the y-axis, we have ROAS and on the x-axis, we have spend. And what you want to see when you have a really good media buyer is in that top right cohort, you'll see a lot of dots. And in the bottom left cohort, you'll see a lot of dots. So, you never want to see dots in the upper left or bottom right sections because that's where either you're spending too much on low-performing assets or you're spending too little on high-performing assets. You know, that top right echelon cohort is all the assets that have the most amount of spend and the most, the highest revenue or ROAS or whatever core metric. Like we have this selector where we can choose between a few different metrics. So CTR, ROAS, net new visit percent. And it makes it super easy at a glance to be able to see if we're making A, the right media buying decisions. And I think a lot of When it comes to creative evaluation, are your creatives doing good? Start there with media buying decision making. Is your media buying at that level of success? And then B, you can start scrutinizing your actual creative output. And I think a lot of the times when it comes to creative output, You want to make sure you're launching in those categories like I mentioned. If you're not forecasting like what your quarterly, monthly, weekly sprints look like, You'll end up six months down the line launching 80% statics and 20% videos and not reaching your micro creator whitelisted levels. Maybe you launch one video that was utilizing a micro creator in general. There's so many different buckets and that's where I think We've taken the right step of forecasting out the same methodology that we use for top line spend, rev, media mix into creative and that's just allowed us to scale significantly even with that Gordon Ramsey level expectation baked in. Speaker 3: I want to talk about a question, honestly, that like I've had about some of these bigger brands that have to be first order profitable, right? To the point of like, yeah, LTV is, is kind of there. Like you guys do launch, you know, accessories and you do launch new things like here and there, but that's not the, that's not the goal of the brand, right? Like you make most of your money up on the first order, right? So I would imagine as you add, complexity to the business, right? So you're running Facebook, probably running TikTok, Google, and you're adding all these channels, and it's obviously you want to grow year over year, right? Month over month, year over year, and get to a certain revenue target, right? This is a fully loaded question, but how do you continue to grow and how do you continue to scale spend without breaking too much efficiency? Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's the golden question, especially this year, more than ever. I think last year was our true breakthrough of seeing massive efficiency increases pretty much across the board, whether that's creative, CRO, Every single facet of growth, we saw incredible growth year over year. And moving into this year, I think that's the truest question. And that's where each year after hyper-accelerated growth, efficiency is going to be the name of the game outside of spending more. And eventually, you will hit that point of diminishing returns or even breakeven. You'll hit the ceiling of Hey, we've maxed out each one of these categories of growth, so creative, retention, CRO, but you'll always be able to increase those by very, very small percent. Eventually, like lifetime, if we're thinking like 50 years, we'll for sure have hit that cap already. Every year that you increase your efficiency and spend more at the same time, the next year will be even, even harder. And I feel like moving into this year, that's the number one goal. Historically, it's been, how do we increase efficiency by 20, 50%? And the answer has always been super, super clear with these low-hanging fruit wins, but now it's You know, always on BAU landing page testing with our current top performers. It's always on creative testing in two different niches. And with that, we need to bridge the gap of, hey, we might take a loss right now, but we need to bridge the gap to upper funnel traffic because we are hitting net new reach and frequency caps on traditional paid media channels. And that's And one of the biggest levers that we've pulled over the last year that's definitely helped build our entire funnel and materialized over time, whether or not that's within the current DTC direct response framework of pretty much instant. I mean, most brands are using One Day Click as one of their true North Stars. And me, Connor, and the full growth team, primarily coming from media buying backgrounds, that was like A big step for us to say, hey, let's reframe our mindset from seeing direct correlation of spend and rev and know and make these educated bets of, hey, we need to continue to go upper funnel as we hit these caps on traditional paid media channels or more specifically paid social and bridge the gap to upper funnel media investment and let that marinate over time. And I feel like a lot of brands can get caught up on Just using an MTA, whether that be, you know, the two big ones for me is TripleL and Northbeam. And, you know, we're big fans of Northbeam. I think that's the best, you know, one of the best MTAs out there. Outside of that, at a certain level, like it really becomes hard to measure paid media performance, especially as you start bridging into upper funnel media investment in general. You know, even within meta, like we're bridging the gap with view content, reach and video view objective campaigns, which have been, you know, this year more than ever, a pretty substantial percent of our media mix investment into meta in general. And that's where like using incrementality testing tools like house and, you know, creating these multipliers and still measuring effectively, but just knowing that that media investment isn't going to translate one one into. Direct contribution margin and revenue in that exact period of time. And I think, I mean, after our Super Bowl ad last year, like that was truly the time where we all reframed our mindsets. We ran a few different measurement studies with a few different partners and, you know, anywhere from 10 to 22.5 million was the direct impact of the Super Bowl ad in general, which I thought was It was incredible and that media spend materialized over the next 3, 6, 12, I mean even right now we're still feeling the impacts of the media spend. Of that direct spot last year. So, you know, coming from a direct response background and like really reframing my mindset and our mindset as a growth team has been super impactful as we've hit this level of scale. And I think that all trickles down into the initial question of like, how do we increase efficiency? The answer is we don't need to right at this moment. For example, with paid social, it's like, yeah, the whole goal is increasing some of these softer metrics that will materialize over time. I think one of the big ones there is CTR. We look at that metric pretty heavily. And as long as we're seeing increases year over year across the board with increased media investment, Amazing. Like, that's how you know you're doing well at a glance. The tricky part is when you're not seeing year-over-year increases with increased media investment, like, hey, how do we really dive deep into what is one new user worth to us outside of the efficiency losses? And that's the tricky question. I mean, we're still trying to figure out the exact definition and answer, but at least we've been seeing some pretty large wins by increasing our top of funnel investment. Speaker 3: Love that. And I think that after, I mean, you guys have spent a ton on paid, right? I do think it is a natural progression, right? Like you see what an impact of Ramsey has, right, organically. Can you get in front of way more people, right, to your point of like a Super Bowl commercial and seeing that it actually had a positive ROI just directly from that commercial, right? And then you have the lasting effects of it. I think obviously brands will, you know, you can get to a certain point with meta, but to go beyond that, it comes from, hey, well, you know, you need to reach the people that may not really be on meta, right? So I appreciate the thoughts there. Before we wrap up with the final Chew, I have some rapid fire questions. First question, what is your favorite HexClad piece of cookware? Speaker 1: Oh, that's a tricky one. I know if anybody on the HexClad team is listening to this, I'll probably get some frowny faces, but I'd say the Pizza Steel, one of our newest additions since joining, but that's been Night and day. I feel like the Pizza Steal specifically, you're able to cook so much on it outside of just pizza. It's built for pizza, but I cook every single breakfast in the morning with my Pizza Steal just because it's such a big surface. Everything is heated up to the same temperature. And, you know, I can cook my eggs, bacon, sausage, even toast at the same exact time by having that big surface to cook on, and that's why it's my number one. Even steaks, like, it's been amazing. Like, you can cook two steaks in a 12-inch pan or seven at the same time in a pizza still. And don't quote me there because technically you're not supposed to cook a steak on a pizza still, but I do and it's amazing. Speaker 3: That is actually my next purchase. I've been experimenting with pizza dough, me and the wife. So that is my next one. Speaker 1: Next lateral step. Speaker 3: Yeah. So still on that note, what is your favorite topping on a pizza? Speaker 1: Traditional pepperoni guy, to be honest. Speaker 3: I love that. What's one topping that definitely doesn't belong on a pizza? Speaker 1: Pineapple. Easy. Done deal. Speaker 3: I'm very curious what the audience thinks on that one, so let me know. All right, something business related, but what is one metric that you probably care more about than the other people on your team? Speaker 1: I'd say percent new visits. It's easy even at our scale to get caught up in one day click ROAS or any click window or even any other measurement methodology. Again, as we bridge the gap to upper funnel investment, our dollars are more well spent, especially in evergreen periods of time where it has a higher percent new visit rate in general. NorthBeam is a great proponent of that. We actually use a few different tools to help measure the quote unquote on paper. What are the true value of percent new visits is actually, I think. That goes into just measurement in general. Speaker 3: So obviously creative output for you guys is very important. You guys have a routine and a practice that you guys are following and a process that you guys are following so that makes sense. The one piece of this also is, in my opinion, I think landing page testing also needs to have an increase in output over time, right? You have different stages of the funnel. You have different types of landing pages to cater to different personas and different, like I said, stages of the funnel. How are you guys actually testing these things? Are you testing it with an A-B testing tool or are you testing directly in platform? What is your guys' process and how do you guys think about that? Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess as it relates to consideration period, Over time like that has increased for us and over time for most brands like that will increase perpetually over time. So, you know, historically HexClad has been at one to three months. And now, you know, more than ever, it's still increasing over time. And where we went wrong with one of our, you know, I think we have pretty robust measurement methodology, like I mentioned before, but we've made a trillion mistakes along the way. And I think with landing page testing specifically, that's where we could have done things better initially, you know, early stages with, you know, Convert and TeleGems offer amazing solutions for you know, web testing, price testing, etc. But, you know, unless you're using that tool for paid media specific testing versus website wide testing, like there's definitely a gap there. And I think IntelliGems and Convert are amazing for Like I mentioned, site-wide price testing or CRO as it relates to all traffic in general, but when it comes to landing page testing specifically for paid media and paid media traffic, think top five core destinations. If you're launching a new, net new landing page that's taking a new swing, let's say you haven't launched any five reasons why or seven reasons why landing page type, most brands will launch that in funnel. I think where we went wrong initially was trying to launch net new landing pages with one of these tools and stacking up our core destination list against one another with a last click tool like IntelliGems or Convert.com. And we've since changed our methodology slightly from Now we'll A-B test or make small swing changes on our top performing destinations once they are validated via Convert or IntelliGems A-B-C-D as long as we have enough traffic there. And, you know, we'll actually take that destination URL and instead of launching a new Convert test or IntelliGems test, we'll create a new entry URL within one of these platforms that's the same as what's currently running. And then split that traffic, you know, two, three, four ways between the destinations that we're testing against with the small swing in mind. So whether that's like adding an additional set that we want to add to, you know, the bottom of our 12 piece landing page, etc. These are very, very small swing changes. And then If it is like a bigger swing change, you know, a net new landing page or a more structural change within one of our current landing pages, that'll actually get launched in funnel. And we actually change our click window away from one day click or whatever your traditional attribution window is for meta or paid social evaluation to the average time it takes from anybody who visits your website for the first time from meta to purchase. So for us, 6.5 days on average from first touchpoint to purchase and first touchpoint being first time hitting the website. So we actually change from one day click to seven day click. And we look at multiple different click windows and even modeled view or deterministic view windows pretty much everything across the board now. But our true core starting place for landing page evaluation has changed from convert or launching in funnel with one day click to now starting with seven day click, waiting at least two weeks to four weeks after the test ends. And then looking at, you know, 30-day click, LTV, different windows and time, because a lot of the time one-day click does paint the same picture as all of these different attribution windows. But sometimes you do see a break over where, you know, one-day click plus one-day model views or LTV or 30-day click does actually paint a different picture than one-day click. And we've seen, you know, Probably 25% of the time, we're going to see actually a different picture by evaluating all of these different windows. And I think that's definitely one of the initial learnings and mistakes that we made. But now I think it's in a very concrete space. Speaker 2: Before we wrap up, just a quick reminder about Instant. 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What is the one final piece of advice for listeners and audiences, you know, those who are growing their brands, what is that one piece of feedback you'd want them to implement starting today? Speaker 1: I'd say always be testing, whether that be creative or landing pages or media mix, making educated decisions. It all starts with a hypothesis. If you're making uneducated bets all the time, you're going to see that directly impact top line business metrics. But as long as you're making educated decisions with the right metrics, Backing that hypothesis, test into it. You know, more often than not, you're going to make a well-educated test or decision. And then the metrics will tell that story for themselves. And, you know, we've made a lot of bets within HexClad with the Super Bowl being one of the bigger bets we've made pretty much in general as it comes to HexClad and, you know, our three, four-year period of time. And that was an educated bet. And we took that swing and it netted out to have amazing, amazing lasting impact on our brand. And I think it's easy at scale to disregard the bets and stick with what's true. And I think and promote a lot of brands to bridge outside of the current box of performance and try to test into new things, whether or not You know, that's something in your current wheelhouse. I think, yeah, just get outside of the box as long as the current metrics warrant a test and it makes sense on paper, test it. Absolutely. Speaker 3: Love that. Chew on that. If you want more from us, follow us on Twitter, follow us on Instagram, follow us on TikTok, and check out the website ChewOnThis.io.