EP:38 Amazon’s Evolution Continues: What You Need to Know with Kevin King

EP:38 Amazon’s Evolution Continues: What You Need to Know with Kevin King 00:00:08 Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Agency Operators Podcast. My name is Pasha, and today I'm joined by a very special guest, Kevin King of Billion Dollar Sellers. How are you, man? I'm good, man. How are you doing, Pasha? Really good. I'm super excited to have you on today. We recorded the AM PM podcast episode a couple of weeks ago. So now you're on this side. And uh, man, I'm just super excited to just hear more about your story, I've been following you for a number of years as many of our listeners probably have as well if they are in the Amazon space, you're pretty influential there, you have a newsletter, two podcasts, I think it is, right, the Billion Dollar Seller Summit, and then probably a whole bunch of other stuff. 00:00:52 I mean, I looked at your LinkedIn just before hopping on and I was like, man, this goes back to 1988 as a founder. So I'd love to hear more about your story and just kind of share with the audience, you know, kind of how you ended up being Kevin King. Yes, I was just, I still sell too. So that's an important distinction. I was just literally before we started, it's just come up to my studio here, uh, downstairs. I live in a high rise in Austin on the top floor. And I have a, two garages that are meant for cars down on the fourth floor of the building um it's like an eight-story garage 00:01:26 and I've turned those into warehouses so I have full-on stroving in there like you know like a Costco uh with a whole shipping desk one of those big peanuts uh you know that that dispenser that puts a little Star Wars phone in the box and uh computer system scales and no internet uh so I have to use my my phone, my iPhone is a hot spot uh to connect the computer so I can't print out shipping labels through ShipStation but I was just down there shipping uh from my direct consumer site it's not a Shopify site uh called Click Cart Pro that's I've been using. For like 20 years, I just do the job; I don't need to switch to Shopify. Yeah, I've been selling uh direct marketing, I think, since I was a kid back in the 70s. 00:02:12 Putting in little ads in the back of a stamp collector magazines and coin collector magazines sold in the back of Computer World magazine. Magazines are for those of you that don't know what magazines are; they're printed those things that are like stapled together that come in the mail. Uh, not too many people read magazines anymore, but the internet, you got your uh, you got your information a lot of your news and a lot of your you know whatever your hobby was it got through. Magazines and so, I there's one called Computer World and I sold software through the back of that. That was developed in college, uh, for uh, bartending, uh, how you know, bartending recipes and keeping tabs on people at your house when because I had a party, party, party apartment in college and we partied six nights a week, uh, out of seven. 00:02:54 And I was the guy making money because I was doing stuff, uh, teaching, doing tutoring, big tutoring classes, teaching people like 500 people at a time in these big convention halls right before a test. So I had the money so I was buying, I wanted to buy alcohol, so I went through a bartending class where They taught us how to mix different drinks, but it was all just because some of the people in there were under 21, it's all just liquid. It's all just like food coloring, water with food coloring. And I was like, I want to know what this stuff actually tastes like. So I just went out and bought everything. And then of course that became, our apartment became the popular place and it started getting out of hand where everybody was coming and I was like, I ain't going to be supporting everybody's partying. 00:03:35 So I created a software program that actually took all these recipes and actually created bar tabs. And I had, I had a bar; I went rented from some furniture place, a bar set up. The computer on the bar; had the whole all the glasses and all the mixtures and everything. And I was a bartender, bus ended up selling that program um some floppy disks back in the day uh through Computer World magazine and that just evolved into several other things in the direct marketing space and then when the internet came around, um started really. I think I sent my first email in 1994 or '93. I remember it was a graphics guy and I needed something done to a logo and um there was Photoshop, like 1. 0 or 2. 00:04:17 Back then, and I needed something changed, I didn't know how to do it, so he's like, 'Just email the file to me.' I was like, 'How do you do that?' Um, because usually I just take it on a floppy disk to his office and leave it, and they fix it, and I go back and pick it up. He's like, 'Just email it to me.' So I had to figure out how to send an email. I was like, 'This is pretty cool.' And then I started uh there and start selling. I think I took my first actual transaction in 1997 maybe 96 um something like that online, um with using a company called Plug and Pay, and I still use them today they still exist today, um, and just started selling stuff online and then got on Amazon, 1999 started selling one of my businesses. 00:04:59 Is wall calendars so, I've been producing wall calendars since like 1995 and we, around 2000 or 2001, maybe um, Amazon had a program called Advantage and it was kind of like a 1% program; I don't know if it can still exist but it was for books, media, and DVDs, and so, since uh, we were considered books because calendars they would buy on consignment from me, so I would get a PO and they'd be for like 150 units, I'm like, 'Oh, that'd be for the whole season; uh, now you know that's about three hours of sales on Amazon. Back then, the whole four months, that was 150. Now, if I did that, if I haven't done that today yet, I'm upset. So that's where it started. Then that evolved into a private label in 2015. 00:05:54 And then went from there. I had a production studio. We were producing three full-time video editors. We were producing TV shows for television, for pay-per-view. direct tv for dish network for uh all that um all featuring us pretty girls so my specialty was uh calendars are pretty girl calendars so we we did stuff all over the world million dollar model searches um we published hardcover like collectible books did did real well with baseball cards putting uh pretty girls on baseball cards it was a hot collectible about the same time that beanie babies were very hot became the biggest biggest player in that space for a while and then just evolved into this whole amazon 00:06:36 thing and still selling i'm still selling amazon today seven figures i'm not a big uh huge massive you know i'm not trying to be i don't care to be but i think it's important since i do educate people and teach people so many people that do that don't don't sell um they don't have their own skin in the game and there's a lot of agency owners even that were former sellers that don't sell anymore yeah they still can peek into other people's accounts and kind of have a kind of kind of have their finger on the pulse, But it's not their skin in the game. If something goes awry, they might lose a client, but it's not their money that they put up. It's not their little baby. 00:07:15 It's like you lost an adopted child, you can lose your own kid. And so there's a difference, I think, psychologically. And I think it's important to keep selling. So I still sell three different brands on Amazon and then do all the stuff that you said, the Billion Dollar Sellers newsletter, two podcasts. Training for Helium 10. The Freedom Tickets had 240,000 students go through it on how to sell on Amazon. They're high-level training. I do the Billion Dollar Seller Summit twice a year. The next one's in Iceland in April. About 150 seven, eight, nine-figure sellers. It's high-ticket, about six grand to come. It's not the normal conference. It's the total experience. A lot of times you go to a conference, you'll listen to a bunch of people talk. 00:07:59 A lot of them aren't so good. Some of them are okay. Uh and then then uh go and maybe have some drinks or order at a party we go way beyond that we do total experiences like in Hawaii last May, like the last one we did an amazing race. We had 28 Avis rental cars, had sponsors like different agencies and different SAS providers put put their logo on the side of the car. We had custom t-shirts made for every team that were Hawaiian-style shirts with the logos across them, looking like F1 shirts. And they did like a TV show Amazing Race, they raced all over the islands doing all kinds of crazy stuff, posting to social media, and they're competing for prizes. So we do a lot of cool stuff. 00:08:38 We did an AI contest where everybody had an hour, broken into teams. You had one hour to find an expired patent, actually decide to actually make that product again, and use AI to create the entire listing, the entire marketing, and everything. We had like 16 teams of like five or six people participating, and there's some cool stuff that came out, some cool tools that got shown. Each one of them had to present for three minutes, uh, sitting from their seat using Zoom up onto the big screen in the conference hall so we do a lot of cool stuff like that it's not just your normal, uh, little conference um. And then I do something now called the Market Masters Think Tank which I did the first one back in September; I'm doing another one in February and a lot of people said that's probably the best event that are the best thing that I've ever done. 00:09:26 So a lot of times when you go to a conference or you listen to a webinar, or you do training, some of it applies to you, some of it doesn't. But one of the best things you can do is actually get in a room with people who have done it ahead of you and have them help you with your specific problems. So I have 12 people. We have a mansion in Austin. It's called the Gatsby Mansion. And 12 people pay to come, and four people per day sit in a hot seat for two and a half hours. And they tell me, this is my problem. This is my business. I'm having an issue with X, Y, and Z. And then I go curate experts, eight to 10 experts based on what they told me. 00:10:05 So they're saying they're having trouble with PPC. I'll get two or three PPC people. They're saying they're having trouble with launching or sourcing. I'll get sourcing people, whatever it may be. And then for two and a half hours, we do a very structured think tank. So they take the first five or 10 minutes, introduce themselves. And then the next hour is questions only. It's all moderated. Then we take a short little break, and then we come back, and the next hour is all solutions. Everybody that came said it was life-changing for them. We had a $75 million a year seller come in from Shenzhen. We had a $130 million on Amazon seller come in from Vegas. It was a couple, and they said it was life-changing for them. 00:10:48 They said it would change the trajectory of their business. It's really, really cool. That's another thing that I'm doing now that I'm probably going to do two a year. So the next one's coming up in Austin again in February. So, yeah, that's the short version of everything that I do right there. It took 10 minutes of the show, but there you go. No, I love it. I love it. I mean, ask somebody to condense the last, whatever, 25 years of their career, 30 years more, right? 35 years, actually, in '88, if my math is right. So, man, amazing. How did you start working with Helium 10? Because you're running the AMPM, right? That used to be or still is owned by Helium 10. Yes, it is. Yeah. 00:11:33 So back in 1995 is when I started doing FBA. So I've been selling on Amazon since 2001 through the Advantage program that I was talking about. But in 2015, I had another business that was kind of on its last leg. And I was like, I got to find something else to do. And I was looking around different opportunities. I came across an amazing . com webinar series. Back then they were doing like a four-part webinar series. So they'd do four like 30 or 40-minute webinars. And then the last webinar, they'd sell you into their $5,000 course. That was their formula. And I saw that webinar. I was like, this is pretty cool. Sourcing stuff up Alibaba, doing this and that, private labeling. I've been doing this in my other businesses. 00:12:18 already through the baseball card business through the i was printing my calendars overseas it's like i'm familiar with all this stuff and product development and all that kind of stuff i was like this i'm gonna give this a try so i went out and and did uh some arbitrage first so i was like i need to figure out how this this works you know they're saying you got shipping amazon you got to put certain labels on it all this kind of stuff so here in austin uh there's a place called the salt lake barbecue it's kind of a touristy barbecue place not the best barbecue it's good barbecue but it's not the best one here but it's kind of touristy So they had this barbecue sauce, and I looked on Amazon. 00:12:49 It's not available. I said, all right, I'm going to go buy it. So I went and bought a couple cases from them, went to their little gift store at the restaurant, and put it up on Amazon. And that taught me how to ship stuff in, how to list a product, how to do the basics. It didn't hardly make any money off it. And it was glass, so I had to package it right, figure out all the little rules. I forget the name of the Chinese one. So, one Nolly Bob is another one. And they had this fiber lash mascara for women that you put on your lashes and it would kind of like help them be stronger and stuff. And some brand was selling like crazy. So I ended up buying something off there. 00:13:34 It ended up being counterfeit shit. I didn't know it, but I put it up on Amazon and arbitrage, and it got shut down. Like, oh shit, can't do that again. And then there's something else was selling called bunch of balloons, and some guy invented this: when you're doing a water balloon fight with your kids, the old ways you got to take a water balloon, put it on the faucet, fill it up, tie it off, grab the next balloon, one by one, put them in a bucket. This guy figured out some sort of device that you attach to the faucet and has all these stringers off it so you can fill up like 20 balloons at once. And it was pretty cool. 00:14:09 And then I was like, 'it was selling really well on Amazon.' So I saw he was in Dallas. So I called him up, said, 'I want to buy wholesale from you.' So I ended up buying like $10,000 worth from this guy and then sold those. And that did really well. Now I feel comfortable enough to actually do this private label thing. So then I launched five brands. And in doing that, I was just selling. And in early 2016, I think March of 2016, Manny Coates was doing, he was one of the co-founders of the Helium 10. He was documenting, well, he started in 2015. He was documenting his journey of being a seller on the AMPM podcast. 00:14:46 And as a result of that, he had developed some software tools just for him to use because his background was software. So he developed what became Scribbles and Frankenstein, a couple of other basic keyword tools. Um, for himself and he's like, I'm gonna put these out there for other sellers to use. That's right around when Jungle Scout was just coming out; he started a Facebook group and he had a Facebook group called FBA High Rollers, and in that group people just sharing strategies. There's so much just like there is today on social media-there's so much information, misinformation, so much bad advice. And someone had posted something about, 'Don't send traffic directly to your listing; it's gonna kill your conversion rate, you know? D-rank you on Amazon.' I'm like, 'You guys are so full of it. 00:15:30 You have no clue what you're talking about.' You should send traffic direct because Amazon likes it. I didn't have any proof-now we know it's attribution, attribution; we know all this stuff now. Back then that wasn't known, but I was like, 'No, this isn't, this doesn't Make sense that's not how this stuff works think about it from a marketing psychological point, that is not true there's no evidence of that but people are like put a landing page always put a landing page first um never just sentence could kill you like no it won't So I started fighting back against people and then correcting stuff. And Manny saw that, and he's like, who is this dude? His profile picture, I was on social media. His profile picture is a picture of a dog. 00:16:07 I don't even know where he lives. It's like I had no LinkedIn. I had no nothing. And he reaches out to me and says, 'Hey, I don't know who you are, but I like what you're saying when you come on my podcast.' I'm like, 'No, I'm just a seller keeping my head down.' He's like, 'Dude, just come on the podcast.' So I went on his podcast in March of 2016. I had horrible audio. I was in my garage. It sounded like I was in a tin can. And I just said it like it is. Sometimes I don't have a filter. And so I just said it like it is. And it just resonated with the audience. It became the number one podcast of its time. People heard it. 00:16:39 I got started invited to other podcasts. And then people were inviting Manny to speak, like ASGTG and several other shows. And Manny's like. Helium 10 was starting to have his hockey stick growth; he's like, 'I don't have time to be going off for three days to um, speak.' He's like Kevin, 'You want me to go? I'll recommend you. You go so I...' He recommended me a couple places and then I started speaking and that just took off as people liked what I had to say. And so then I just let it lead into more podcasts and more speaking stuff and then that led into me, when they decided to do what was called Illuminati; it's the Helium 10 elite now it's their high-level training. 00:17:16 He said, 'Why don't you come in and be a fourth partner on that?' It's going to be separate from Helium 10, but you can kind of run it. And I still run it to this day under its new name. The arrangement has changed. I'm not a partner anymore, I just get a flat fee, consultancy fee now. But it's a nice fee. And that's how that evolved. And then when Manny decided to sell the company, he's like, I can't be the face anymore. If you're the face of your company, it's difficult to sell it. So that's when he hired Bradley Sutton. People said someone else needs to be the face. He stepped back, quit doing the podcast. It got taken over for a little while by Tim Jordan. 00:17:55 And then Tim moved on with Carbon 6. And then I took it over a little over two years ago and been doing it since. And then I have another podcast besides AMPM that's separate from him and Tim called Marketing Misfits. And I do with Norm. It's not about Amazon. It's more general marketing and psychology of marketing, and it's a whole different topic with more funnel building and email marketing and that kind of stuff. Right? So it's not just Amazon with you. I mean, from your experience, it's you, it's the internet, right? No, it's marketing. I mean, so I'm, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a marketing person first and Amazon person second. Amazon's where I make a lot of my money, and teaching it, but I, I'm, I'm very big on actually participating. 00:18:38 I'm in the driven masterminds, $30,000 a year. Uh, that's um, Perry Perry's Mastermind, Perry Belcher uh used to be War Room traffic conversion, um and I think there and there's a hundred people in there paying um 30 grand a year and I think we meet once a quarter and then we meet weekly uh online but once a quarter in person and I think out of the hundred I think there's three Amazon people maybe four, the rest are all other marketers, other types. So I think it's important is to actually get keep your foot and get that exposure in other places because so many of us in the Amazon world all we think about is Amazon all day and all we know is Amazon and there's a lot of other things that are happening out there in SEO and email marketing and funnel building and and social media advertising and all this. 00:19:28 And if you don't know all that stuff, you're missing some opportunities. And so I keep my foot on the pulse of all that stuff, so I go to events that are around that, that I go to Go High Level, I go to Funnel Hacking Live, I go to Deal Con, I just went to uh, the big YouTube show in Dallas uh, partners with Mr. Beast and learn all the YouTube market, I went to the Podcast Movement, so I get out and then I go to a lot of Amazon stuff too but I get outside of that world because there's a lot of things you can learn when You open your eyes like oh shoot they're doing this little strategy what if I apply that to what I'm doing with Amazon or what if I apply that to my backend on marketing on my and custom um for my the database I'm building from Amazon sales. 00:20:12 So there's a lot of things you can do there. And I bring some of that out in my newsletter. You'll see some stuff. If you subscribe to Billion Dollar Sellers' newsletter, there's a mix. There's Amazon. Then you'll see a YouTube thing. You'll see a psychology of marketing or how to do pricing or how to do something else that all applies. But most of us, it's not taught or not covered in the Amazon world. Everybody's just worried about the next hack or the next day. And that's where you need to be more well-rounded. And if you want to build a solid business and have a solid foundation, it's not about hacks, even though I give those out because people want those. But those are short-lived. But that's what I do there. 00:20:47 Yeah, I agree. You know, I think with Amazon, there's so much risk involved because there's so much on their side, right? So it's like we base our livelihoods, our careers, right? on Amazon, but Amazon is the one who makes the rules at the end of the day. So it kind of gives you a little bit of power back when you say, 'All right, well, I can survive without them if I needed to.' I've had this just happen. It's happening right this second. I have four calendars and we sell pretty girl calendars. And so we've been doing it for 25 years on Amazon. Occasionally it's been an issue. This year has been the worst ever. We have four main calendars that we sell on Amazon. 00:21:25 I sell 27 different ones, but most of those are direct to consumer. People still send me checks and money orders. For those of you who don't know, those are little pieces of paper in the mail, in envelopes, like handwritten envelopes. And I go to the post office, put the key in, take it out, and there's like a stack of envelopes. And you open each one, there's a check and a money order handwritten in there. I still get those a lot. Wow. And that's some of what I was shipping out today. On Amazon, we sell four main calendars. I do some print-on-demand to test concepts for the next year. But the four main ones we print in South Korea, and we print tens of thousands of these. And then we put them up on Amazon. 00:22:03 It's usually not a problem. Well, on November 13th of this year, one of the calendars got taken down by Amazon. It said, 'this is a restricted product.' You're not allowed to sell it. I'm like, what the F? We've been selling these for years. There's not a problem. Maybe someone got offended by the cover. It was too sexy, or the girl was looking. Everything is clean. This is not porn or anything, but maybe just her expression upset some woman. They complain. I don't know what happened. Or someone at Amazon Fulfillment, when they're unboxing it, got offended. I don't know. So I usually can fight it, and it's back up within a day. You know, you'll change the picture or change some words or whatever. This one is still down right now, 20 days later. 00:22:46 I've got River Bend trying to help me. We've sent notices to Jeff, to Dharmesh, and now they just gave me another contact. I filed cases, and the cases say, please give our team 10, you know, standard bull**** response. Give our team up to 10 days to respond. I'm like, it's been 19. Like, what the hell? I'm replying back, it's been 19 days. What happened to the 10? I get the same answer back. Please give us 10 days to respond. It's just a circle. And then Saturday night, a second calendar went down. I've got 2,000 units in stock of each of those right now at Amazon FBA. And I've got a bunch more here. It's the prime selling season. So I missed Black Friday on one of them. 00:23:23 I missed Cyber Monday on both of them. And I'm missing the, these are calendars where people are buying them for 2025. This is prime selling season. It's taken $7,000 to $10,000 a day out of my pocket right now. Easily on each one of those calendars. But am I pissed? Yes. Am I worried? It's like, God damn it, because these are like I can't sit on these till next year. They're dated. So but as long as I can get it back up in the next week or two, I'll be OK. But but in the worst case, I have a backup. I can sell them direct. So I set up an FBM listing under a new ASIN with a different UPC. I just made up a UPC. 00:24:03 I have a bank of UPCs. I just use a different UPC. Who gives a shit if it's the right UPC or not? Because I'm sending an FBM. So they'll never see it anyway. It doesn't matter. Uh, and then then I have my own direct so that's will help cover it and also sell to calendars. com which is a big uh they have all the kiosks in the mall that you see pop up everywhere and so I have other sources so in the worst case I'll take a hit but I won't lose money I've already made enough money and I have one of the Amazon accounts is an account that's has daily withdrawals so uh it's a new account so Some people tell me their new accounts don't have this, but I can go in every 24 hours, take the money out. 00:24:44 Right. Express payouts, yeah. I don't trust Amazon, so I take daily payouts. Not because I need the money. Some people, it helps with their cash flow. Not because I need that. I'm good. But I just don't trust Amazon holding 50 grand for two weeks. There's no way in hell I'll ever let Amazon ever, ever hold 50 grand for two weeks. That's a foolish, fool's errand. It's a free loan. It's a free loan, and you never know what's going to happen. They shut your account and lock that? No, I don't trust Amazon one single bit. Amazon is great, but I've had PayPal hold. We did a conference in 2017 with Manny, a Helium 10 conference for Illuminati in Cancun, and we sold $86,000 worth of tickets through PayPal. People use PayPal. 00:25:33 We also use credit cards, but some people just want to pay PayPal. PayPal held that money for 180 days. We had to send proof of pictures, people at the conference, and match them up. It was ridiculous. I've had other issues like that. So anybody that processes my money, I do not trust at all. I don't trust any of them one bit. Even my credit cards that come through my Stripe and whatever, they come into one account, and because that account, and then they get swept. It's called a holding account, and it gets swept to another account that nobody knows the account number of. Because if someone at Stripe or someone gets the account number, I put it on a form somewhere. This is the account, or maybe I have wires coming to that account. 00:26:15 That number is out there and someone could actually just use that number and tie it to some other kind of withdrawal. So I have a kind of a quote unquote hidden account that I don't write any checks on. I don't do anything. That one holds the money and then it gets moved to other accounts to actually pay out, just because I've been screwed so many times. You're playing an Amazon sandbox. And so when you're playing an Amazon sandbox, you don't make the rules and you've got to cover your ass. And so that's what I try to do. It's a great opportunity. Amazon is still the best out there. I'm going to sell more through Amazon than way more than anybody else. So I play the game, but I cover my ass too. 00:26:53 That's what it's about, right? It's the game. And you have to play it and you have to know what your backup plan is. You have to have some type of, I heard you talking about this a lot. If you haven't, if you have an entry strategy, you have to have an exit strategy, right? Everyone's on Amazon at some point to exit. And you know that it's like, okay, on Shopify, I own the customer in a way, right? You have their email. You can communicate with them. Amazon doesn't want you to do that. It's in their TOS. They're trying to prevent you from communicating as much as possible. They're not going to prevent you from writing your website on the package. But still, they don't want you to talk to their customer. 00:27:32 So they're making it very clear that they have the rules and they're going to do whatever they want, even though people will complain. Like we've seen that this year with some of the new fees they rolled out. There was an uproar at the beginning of the year. People were like, what's going on with this? So they kind of delayed it, but they still rolled it out. And so now we're dealing with these new inbound placement fees; everyone's complaining about. I mean, the receiving times-I don't know how you're seeing this, but receiving times have been extremely slow. Like, this fourth quarter has been a disaster with receiving times. Low inventory fee. Long-term storage fees, inbound placement fees, and all of that-I'm a little bit upset seeing 11 days of you know, everyone loves Black Friday and opportunity to get a good deal. 00:28:13 But these 11 days that they've been putting up these sales for have caused super high CPCs in a lot of the categories that we're managing. And so that has just driven the market even crazier. So, you're not only paying these inflated quarter-four fees, you're also now competing harder than you've ever competed to get those sales. And so, you're just running inventory and they're not even getting it fast enough. Here's the deal: Amazon's all about shareholder value and they're providing shareholder value. They don't care about that. And even though they raise us, we're still doing it. We're bitching and moaning. But we're still doing it because they know they have us by the balls. That's right. They know that we're going to bitch and moan. 00:28:56 And a couple of people say, 'F you, I'm going to Shopify.' But the vast majority are not going to do it. So they know they can get away with it. And you look at their fees, all the fees they charge third-party sellers. If you look at their balance sheets and look at their total expenses, someone analyzed this. This was in my newsletter a couple of months ago. So I want to analyze this. And they said, 'look, all the fees they charge 3P covers all their costs for 1P too.' So all the 1P stuff, they ship it for free. We're paying the 3P sellers by the fees that they collect from us covers the entire cost to run the entire 1P operation. Wow. So they can get away with it. 00:29:36 And just like when they didn't charge sales tax for a long time, then the state started bitching and moaning and started going after sellers. And then Amazon finally succumbed. Um, they're the same thing in several categories like we're big, we're gonna do it until we have to until we have to change. Uh, we're gonna get away with until we have to change, and they're so big and they don't care. There's another guy waiting if you if you tell them f off, there's another guy waiting right behind you uh, and or they'll make it up somewhere else. You look at Aki, Aki was doing a billion dollars plus and you remember 2021, they took about like 60 sellers off of Amazon. Some of these were huge major sellers, and they're doing fake reviews and stuff. 00:30:17 A lot of them are back, but they didn't care. That's a couple billion dollars. It doesn't matter. That's a couple billion for them, but the next guy behind them, he was doing $100 million. Now he's going to do $200 million. We'll fill the gap. No problem. There's plenty of people. They don't care. It's all about shareholder value and the stock performance. That's what matters for any of these big corporations. But what does that mean for the small seller? Like most of the sellers are small sellers. I still think, though, you guys-you're gonna see, I see this now with the software companies, the Jungle Scouts, the Helium tens, those guys. It used to be, you know, all you had to do was just think about how many how many get rich quick on Amazon schemes you see on YouTube now or see come across your social media-it's a lot less right because it's a lot harder now to actually get going in the 00:31:06 seven years ago, you could start with a few hundred bucks and build a business and maybe sell it to Thrasio for a lot of money. You can't do that anymore. You can start with a few hundred bucks and make some beer money and make some money for a pizza, buy a pizza on the weekend or something, but you're not going to make a living. You're going to have to have access to additional funds or special credit terms or something, some access to money. So those opportunities are less and less, and that's going to continue to happen. I think with AI, in the agency world, even with AI, you got agencies now with 20 people. I think you're going to see PPC agencies go to three. 00:31:44 I've talked to several people in the AI space that aren't in the agency space. They agree with this. And some agency owners say, 'nah', that's not going to happen. But other agency owners see the writing on the wall. And if I were working for an agency right now as an employee, I would be concerned about my job. I would be like, 'I need to figure out AI and I need to be preparing myself because'. AI is doing stuff better than humans; you look at Facebook, Facebook's a perfect example-the Facebook algorithm, a lot like John Loomer and a lot of these people that have taught Facebook for years. They're like, 'Quit, quit trying to game it yourself; just let it just let Facebook do it, it knows it has the data, it knows, yeah, it has way more than you could ever just let it do it, it's going to be better results 95% of the time. 00:32:30 And the same thing is going to happen on Amazon as Amazon PPC gets sophisticated. So I think you're going to see a lot of these agencies, there are 3,500 agencies or so in the Amazon space, 3,400, 3,500. A lot of them are small. Someone told me that an agency that hits $500,000 in annual sales is top 1%, which surprised me. I thought it would be a higher number than that. That's not gross sales for their clients; that's sales, you know, their fees that they're taking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The agency revenue. Agency revenue, yeah. So that kind of surprised me. I was like, so that means there's a lot of people that are just, they got a couple of clients and they're just trying to survive. 00:33:14 It's like, yeah, it's cutthroat. Well, that just boosted my ego. I guess I'm a top 1% agency. I don't add. Excuse me. I don't have – that's not some massive study, so I don't know if that's 100% accurate, but that's what someone I respect actually told me. I can imagine. I mean I'm on – I get this newsletter from a really big M &A guy in our space in the Amazon world. He's kind of a matchmaker, and he did like a really comprehensive list with a lot of data there, and he's just identified the top agencies that are kind of known on the internet. Maybe – that that list was only like 850 00:33:54 of them so if you're saying 34,000 there's probably a majority of agencies that are really not even out there in the open like very small groups and you can even find Pakistani vans that turned into an agency yeah and what is an agency like I I brought two of my friends on to do the content and logistics and I do PPC and now I'm an agency you know so what's the name of that newsletter um it this was a direct email from the guy's name is Chris Freiberger. So if anybody wants to. Chris Freiberger. Chris Freiberger. Yeah, he's a really great guy. He does M&A and matchmaking in the Amazon world. And so he's connected with all the agencies, all of the, you know, good buyers and probably a lot of sellers as well. 00:34:37 So he's put me in touch with a lot of other great people in the space. But yeah, he's basically he's selling that list, actually. So shout out to Chris. And so that's. Yeah, he's selling that list for, I think it's for Black Friday, it might have been $500 and you get access to, I mean, it has all of the data, revenue numbers and many other things. So I'm on that list somewhere too, which was interesting to see. Yeah. That's great. So was the list, did it validate what I just said? Yeah, I would say so. Okay. Yeah, so that's, I think you're going to see less, you're going to see more agencies have trouble because as AI. 00:35:18 And robotics within AI, you know, automated systems where you can actually have not robots like the physical kind that go around like C-3PO, but the robots that can actually do a chain of commands online are going to start doing what a lot of humans were doing. And you just need babysitters. You're going to need a couple of people that know when it goes wrong and can fix it or set it back on track. And you're not going to need 20 people anymore. That just reminds me back in the day, you know, you see these like old movies of like, operators on the phones and they're like plugging away, you know, exactly yeah that's a good analogy right and it's the same thing now, it's like there's no people sitting there plugging anything, it's all just the system just does it. 00:35:59 So it's the same thing. Like how much, how many more years do we have of us sitting and adjusting bids? And you know, all of that stuff is just like, you can refine it so much by I mean, we do it with PackView. That's the ad tech tool that we are using in our agency. There's a couple of them out there. I know the guys at Quartile, you know, same thing. So everyone is just kind of competing with that until the point of where does the AI step in? So these ad tech tools can either integrate it, but I'm just waiting for Amazon to roll it out because they're doing it with the content. We're seeing them integrate these AI tools now. 00:36:31 You can just like put a fancy background and plug your the toaster that you're selling onto a kitchen counter and there you have your infographic and you'll put some text over it, and that's like a native tool. So, we all know that Amazon's native tools are not nearly as good as the tools that third-party is doing, but eventually they will, they will get better, they will, yeah, they catch up very fast right now and but they're gonna get better. Uh, and you have Odyssey that's just coming out. You know, it's going to start analyzing videos and intent and video can actually, I don't know if you saw my newsletter yesterday or talking about it. It's being announced at a W at the world of whatever they call it. 00:37:05 It's in Vegas, the, um, AWS conference or geek conference, all the AWS guys. Um, they've been, it's been development for like a year, but it can analyze the videos. And so you can actually type in, show me a, one of the examples they gave us, show me a picture of someone unboxing, uh, unboxing up some shoes. and it can actually take you right to the show you only all the videos on amazon of someone unboxing shoes and so because maybe for whatever reason you have a fetish of the box and that's you buy your fuse based on how cool the box i don't i don't know but you'll get to that level uh where it'll show you take you right to minute seven 16 seconds of the actual thing happening and here's the here's the the 20 products that have this and just click here to watch and start seven minutes 16 seconds or whatever it's getting to that level so 00:37:52 from a creator point of view and from a listing point of view it's going to change a lot of things that we need to be doing to optimize We, the optimization in the past has been optimized for keywords and looking for gaps, looking for opportunities where someone's either not bidding a lot on a keyword it's got good search volume or someone doesn't have a lot of reviews or whatever, finding those gaps with keywords and that still exists right now but it's going to become less and less than that more of optimizing for the AI and optimizing for intent, intent versus actually just hardcore data. Yeah. I actually did a presentation last week. We built a custom GPT that you plug a bunch of sheets in. I just showed people where to download all these sheets. 00:38:35 One of the sheets is from Helium 10. That's our keyword, Cerebro. The second sheet is coming from the subcategory download from your actual Seller Central. So you can get all of the valid values that Amazon wants to see in the backend. And then the third sheet is a scrape of the actual backend so you can know what fields Amazon's asking for. And then you plug it into GPT. put a listing or your website so it can know more about your product. And then it basically spits out a sheet that has all of the fields and values filled out according to the values that Amazon wants to accept, the valid values, which is not always in the dropdown. And that's super cool for just optimizing for indexing, but more importantly for intent-based search, because that's a non-keyword related. 00:39:23 It's not like SEO in your front end, put the keywords in your title. It's like, this product is a gel. It works for dry hair and it’s suitable for children, you know. Like those are very specific things that people are searching for in the search based on their intent, but that might not all be in your keywords or whatever because people are trying to go for the keywords they’re not going for what people are searching for so they’re looking for reviews too to do that financial is that one of the reports uh reviews no, not currently but that’s a that’s a good one yeah I would put reviews into 00:39:57 that GPT too because there’s a lot of intent uh or use uh people say this is great for cleaning my cabinets or next oh shoot I never thought about this I thought it was just for the floors uh but you put that in somehow that’s intense based search okay very nice I like that yeah good reviews uh would be a good one to add to that is that something that you’re giving away for free yeah yeah yeah it’s totally free I I just uh I announced that, and I’ll put it in the newsletter. I'm sure it's a lead magnet for you or something. Not really. It was just a five. I had Nick Peniff. He did a hack series. 00:40:34 He said everyone loves hacks, so we had about 1,200 signups on that. I think it was a week or two ago. So he said, hey, put together a quick presentation. So I had my team put that together, me and my team and I. And so the GPT is just a URL custom built. I think we just made it live. Today, on the actual uh chat GPT search thing, but um it's still in an early stage, I'll be honest, Kevin, you know it's not perfect like sometimes we get results we're like, can we even present this, you know? But I mean ChatGPT is at an early stage, believe it or not. It's like these these uh AI tools are not as they're super crazy don't get me wrong but sometimes when you work with it you're like, this thing is not as as refined as we think it is. 00:41:15 Like in order to build a tool like that that's really efficient, you have to do so much custom prompt programming and prompt engineering is probably going to become in our in our lifetime, we're going to see that become one of the top professions because a lot of people that have tried, you know, only like one percent or two percent of the population is messed with AI, no way, yeah it's a small that a lot of people, a lot of people have not messed with it or they have them. Yeah, it was okay, but it's because the prompts suck, yeah! But to your point if you know how to do progress, I just talked to someone the other day that's doing He can take, I'm going to test this. 00:41:52 He can take your URL, your Amazon URL or your ASIN, or he can take a link to your personal website and he can write a customized email targeting you based on that. And then you send it out. So he did this for journalists where he went and said, 'I got a new product launch.' I'm just going to make up a product. Say it's a slow feed dog bowl. I want to know all the journalists that talk about dogs and dog health. So, he had the internet go searches the internet. With some scripts, and finds I don't know all the all the journalists I've ever posted on a blog or an article about Dog health and then it it also picks up, scrapes You know their email address because a lot of reporters will put in their email address or contact information or whatever. 00:42:35 Scrapes all that and then he went and had it read all their those people's articles that wrote about dog health. And then he said I had to create a custom email and send it out to them where it made it look like he researched each one of them individually; they all your article on last year on blah blah blah was great, and your article. That you did a couple weeks ago on this one was uh really cool and we have a product that we're announcing launching right now that will solve these problems that you you talked about um we would love to send you a free sample or whatever and he's crushing it wow but that's where the AI can get to right now and you can do all kinds of really customized stuff I'm doing something right now I'm testing it for my newsletter The newsletter I started in August of last year and it's just word of mouth for the first year and it grew to about 10,000 people word of mouth. 00:43:25 And my newsletter doesn't go out to just people who give me their email address. My email list is much higher. You have to opt in. And then if you don't read it and click at least once a month, open and click at least once a month, do both actions, I kick you off. Oh, wow. So it's highly engaged. Most people don't do that. They just keep emailing everybody. And then I started doing Facebook ads in April, August of this year. So three months now, Facebook ads. And it was about $5 cost per lead initially. And I've gotten that down to about $3. 50 now with Facebook kind of learning who's the best. But I had a guy come to me and said, well, I can scrape Google with AI tools. 00:44:06 I know anybody that's typed something into Google. So I said, well. That's interesting. I want to know people that have gone, they're Amazon sellers. Not who want to be Amazon sellers, but who are Amazon sellers. Because there's people, like you said, that you can buy lists from that scrape out Amazon's site. And those are okay. I want to know who's typing into Google search bar, seller central support, because that's an Amazon seller. Someone types seller central support, you're selling on Amazon. He can find all that and then automatically put those into a custom audience on Facebook. And in most cases, match it to public data and give me their email address and their whole LinkedIn and everything. This sounds too good to be true. And he's like, give me some keywords. 00:44:48 So I gave him a list of 20 keywords. And he came back to me and said, oh, yeah, in the last two weeks, I can get you 484,000 people that match this. I'm like, what? So, yeah, here's the pay me. Pay me. Sign up for my program. It's a monthly fee. And I was like, all right, I'll sign up. I'll take it. I'll roll the dice here. Um, so I signed up and he sent me a list of 484, 000 people in a big huge day-by-day CSV with like all kinds of attended fields from Apollo, and then I'm afraid to sit; I haven't tested them yet, I will, but I'll run them through uh zero balance and check the emails and make sure you know there's not a bunch of spammy stuff in there. 00:45:23 But we've been putting them into audiences on Facebook, and I had my Facebook guys who specialize in newsletters start testing it. The first thing they did is they do a look-alike audience on it. It looked like my cost per lead was $2. 50. Off the top, a dollar better than what Facebook has been able to optimize in three months. Then we came back. They misunderstood because they didn't realize I wanted to also target the core list. Just last week, they started to target the core list. I don't have the data. I need to let it run for a week, but so far, it's going to be way less than $2.50. Wow. 00:46:01 Working, but you could do this for any topic, any brand, and I could find all the people, type in 'slow feed dog bowl' and put them into audiences and retarget it, puts them in within an hour, so you're automatically retargeting without pixels without them going anywhere, it's pretty magic, but that's where we're getting to um out there in the world and that's all automated. You don't need people doing this, you don't need anything doing this. But basically, anything you do online is public, especially in the United States where there's no GDPR. And it's crazy what's happening out there. It's funny because just a minute ago you said, 'let Facebook optimize.' My point is it's getting better. The AI is getting better. Facebook optimized. But Facebook is guessing and they're using it. 00:46:49 It's good, but they don't know. They're testing things and giving it time to pass, okay. This looks like this person, these qualities, this is probably a good match, and it's good there's nothing wrong with facebook doing that but when you actually have that user intent in the moment where they just type in 'seller central support help' into Google, and then you retarget them an hour later with a Facebook ad, that's a hot moment. They're like, 'They're in the market for Amazon.' People aren't going to Facebook typing in 'seller central support' trying to find information. So there's a difference there. It's a psychological difference. It's back to that intent-based stuff. And when you can hit them when they're in the intent, when you're in the market, when you want a pizza, and you're in the market to want a pizza right now, am I going to order from Domino's, Pizza Hut, Godfather's, or whoever? 00:47:38 That's the moment you want to target buy from me. Not a week from now, like, hey. We're Dominoes. We have the great PC. That's good. Next time I need one, I'll think about you or maybe I'll remember. So that's kind of like it's a difference. So Facebook is still let them optimize over you trying to do it yourself. But if you can actually get that true intent data and then hot like I'm getting it, that's even better. You see, that's that's the beauty of the Internet, that there's so much that you can do when you kind of step outside of one circle. Like Amazon is a bubble. I'm aware of it. You know, it's a great bubble, but it's a bubble. So as long as you're aware. You're aware of PPC. 00:48:18 You're aware of the rules and how to do it on Amazon. But if you're not in these other worlds, then you wouldn't have known this. And I met this guy at Go High Level. The guy that's doing this at a Go High Level event. And that's a different world. And now I'm like, shit, I could use that in my main world. So that's, you know, I'm going out there and exploring the planets and bringing back the cool rocks. I mean, it's also great for you to have a core team that can implement, right? Because if you're just one person and your skills or your time are limited or whatever it is, then you can't implement. So it's amazing to have a foundation like that where you can go out there, retrieve those good nuggets from space, like you're saying, and then say, 'All right, team, here, go.' Well, you have a couple guys, right? 00:49:03 I'm a one-man show. But you have people that you work with. I have one VA in Pakistan that works part-time for me; it helps with the newsletter basically, and that's it everything else. I partner Okay, I partner with so like the face of the guys running my Facebook ads. I partner with them on the podcast; I show up and like when we did ours, I show up and record it, and I don't touch it again until it comes out. So I'm not the guy editing. I'm not the guy; he didn't tell has the whole team that that's doing all that kind of stuff. So what I people always say Kevin, how do you do so many things? It's just you; how big is your team? I say it's just me. 00:49:39 They're like, they look at me like what? What I'm like, yeah, I work a lot, but I also play a lot. So when I'm here, I'm working 14-16 hours a day, you know. I was married; now I'm divorced, so I have time to do that. And then when I travel, I chill a little bit and I enjoy that, and the socialization, and going to conferences, and the learning aspect of it. Well, I what I do is I partner smart. So I partner with people that already have the teams, that already have everything. So I don't have to be the guy micromanaging and babysitting all that. So I'm going to be the idea guy and the connector, not the guy in the weeds. 00:50:20 Now, the one thing I do, and this is people will look at me like, Kevin, you're out of your mind. People always say, what's the value of your time? What's the value of, you know, if you're a $500 per hour owner of a business, you shouldn't be doing $20 per hour tasks. That's a waste of your time. And I would agree with that in the most cases, but there's one exception to that where on my calendar business, I have a direct-to-consumer calendar business where we send out to 17,000 people, an actual printed brochure. It's like a catalog has a pictures of all the calendars and they can order. There's a little order form on the bottom. It has little die lines with a little picture of a scissors that says 'cut here'. 00:50:59 It does, and then they cut it out, and that's what they send me in an envelope. Or they can go to the website. The website's all over. Just go online and order it. A lot of people still want to send checks and money orders through the mail for whatever reason. I'm like, 'I don't care.' Money is money. And so they'll do that. Those I have to ship out. I don't have a third-party logistics (3PL) because it's basically about a two-month period. It used to be about a six-month period from like September until February, but I've trimmed it to about a two-month period where I send those out in early November. So all the orders come in in November, December, and by January, I'm pretty much done. 00:51:35 So over a two-month period, I have into the thousands of orders that come in to me by mail. And I'm physically, me personally, physically making the box, putting the calendar in the box, and shipping it and getting it to the post office. And people are like, why are you doing that? Just hire somebody or put that to a 3PL. A 3PL would cost me a lot of money to do it from what I can do it. But also for me, it's a break. So instead of sitting at my desk all the time, it's for 10 hours a week or for two months. So 80 hours total time. I go down and I do this. It's mindless work in my warehouse. And I turn on podcasts and I listen to, I catch up on all my podcasts. 00:52:19 Because it's mindless work, so I can concentrate on the podcast as I'm just stuffing a calendar in. It's not just background noise. And I catch up on all my information. And so it's almost like my meditation, my escape thing. And so it just works for me. And so that's how I've gotten the system down. I'm fast at it. You know, this morning for an hour, I shipped 67 orders or something like that. And I listened to Pizza Wars. Uh, about dominoes and Pizza Hut, you know one of these uh podcasts um of Pizza Wars, and yesterday uh when I was down there uh because I'm catching up from being gone, I was listening to FedEx and uh ups and Amazon shipping and it's a big podcast like a seven-part podcast about the start of UPS and how FedEx came in and interrupted them and then now how Amazon came in and used them and now Amazon is crushing them and their own fulfillment and it's fascinating stuff or I'll listen to 00:53:15 Serious Sellers by Helium 10 or I'll listen to you know uh Amz Optimizer, I'll listen to some of some podcasts, you know other podcasts I just catch up and and it works for me so and it's a break I'm killing two birds with one stone, you know sometimes you can't you can't always look at everything in that type of like dollar value because it's like if you're if you're valuing your time then you also have to value the time that you're spending not working so I'm sitting here watching some Netflix, this episode is costing me $500, you know, or whatever. I should be working right now. I'm watching. I do watch a lot of college football and some NFL, but sometimes I'm like, I want to watch another game. 00:53:58 Like, should I be watching this game or should I actually be going and making some money right now? Yeah. But at some point it's like, what's the cost of your, your leisure, your relax. Someone told me I had someone come out to my. Last think take, Jesse Elder. He made an interesting comment. And I've actually been implementing this. It's good. He said, you need to be bored. And he's like, you need people in today's world. Don't they always they don't like to be bored. If you're sitting at the airport waiting for your free flight, you're probably fucking around on your phone, playing, looking at something or you're in your people are always. Busy with something he said, sometimes it's good to just sit. 00:54:42 He said, think about it when you're a lot of times your best ideas come when you're bored, when you're driving the car on a three-hour trip from seeing Grandma and you're driving back and boring ass drive and your mind just wonders or when you're in the shower, you know sometimes our ideas come in the shower because there's nothing else distracting you. He says you just he said one of the best things you can do is find some time every week, every day, if you can, some people call it meditation, but this is, he wouldn't call it meditation. He said, just sit in a room where you're freaking bored and do nothing, nothing in your hand and just sit 30 minutes for an hour and just watch what happens and watch the ideas and what happens in your life and what changes. 00:55:22 And I've been trying to implement some of that and it's highly effective. I agree with you. I get some of the best inspiration from going on walks. I live in the mountains, so I take my dog out. I go on a two-hour hike, I come back, and I'm just like writing down business ideas right away. Just like you know it's like I'm not reading anything; I'm not listening to anything; I'm just allowing myself to kind of like slow down, create that empty space, and then like you, you're gonna fill it in somehow. Your mind is always even if you're not thinking about something; your mind is always creating and synergizing. There's so much there, so it looks like we're at time. Kevin, I wanted already all right; we're just getting started. 00:55:59 I know I mean this can go on forever; I gotta get outta here. I gotta go to uh Iceland next year, so we can continue that's right. You gotta come out to Iceland in April yeah, speaking of which everything's nice and I do the BDS event which is which is Amazon focused, 15 speakers, and then after it, I started doing this year; I do An event called Elevate 360. So it's optional. It's additional cost and only about a third of the people stay. So it's 50 people instead of 150. But I bring in 10 speakers that are not Amazon speakers. So it's, it's to level up basically your game. It's to actually elevate your game beyond just Amazon. And it's everything from mindset like this guy, Jesse, is speaking this year. 00:56:41 So it's entrepreneur mindset. I have someone speaking on nutrition, but not nutrition like diets, nutrition on the psychology of eating. And like, it's called intuitive eating. And she's like, this is how you actually lose weight. You never go on a diet. You never do a fat carnivore thing or anything. This is how you do it. And she's really, really good. I have the guy who made Mr. Beast famous on YouTube that basically instrumental. He's speaking. Wow. That is his name. I have a woman who's speaking. That's got six kids, two boyfriends. Two board members that travel together with her. She owns like 12 companies. She's on like 30 boards. Peter Thiel, one of the richest guys, VCs in the world, has somebody that he pays $350,000 a year to go out and just find interesting people for him to have lunch with. 00:57:36 That's the person's sole job. Find people for me to invite them to San Jose and just have lunch with me. She's been three times. Because she impressed him that much. She's speaking. And I have one of the top Google experts speaking. So it's that kind of thing. So there's two events there. Eventually, that'll get spun off from BDSS. It'll be a totally different time. But right now, I've got to piggyback it while I'm building it. Sure. So I'm trying to give back and get people thinking outside of this Amazon fishbowl to really round themselves off as an entrepreneur and bringing in these different types of speakers. could deliver this additional kind of content very 00:58:18 cool i love that so i was going to actually ask you know to kind of finalize the the convo here like what are some final thoughts and it sounds like the final thought is try to expand your mind outside of the amazon yeah i think it's one of the best things you can do is is don't just be myopic on amazon because like you said earlier you have all your eggs in one basket and there's nothing wrong with that basket it's a huge freaking basket you can make a lot of money in that basket But if you can get beyond just Amazon, whether you're an agency owner or you're a seller, And implement some of these things that are in these other genres that overlap, you can start crushing it. Yeah. 00:58:56 I mean, my newsletter is a perfect example. I went to an AI show, an AI bot summit, April of 2023. And at the summit, they were talking about using AI to create newsletters. They're like, oh, you could create all these newsletters for dentists and for – plumbers and all this using AI; they'll just grab all these articles, it'll spit them here and you don't have to touch it. You could have 100 newsletters go on charge them each a thousand bucks a month and I was like yeah yeah you can't do that but it's gonna be kind of shitty and might work for a couple months, but I was like, you know what? What if I did this for Amazon but not AI; what if I actually wrote a newsletter, but they're giving all the tools. 00:59:34 I was like holy because I used to do a newsletter to 250,000 people 20 years ago before we had all these tools, before there was an AWeber or anything, Beehive or any of that kind of stuff. And so I knew the power, but it got me thinking. And then they introduced me to all these additional tools that are out there now, like Beehive. I'm like, holy shit, I had no idea that there's these cool tools that are built for this. And so I said, I'm going to start a newsletter for the Amazon space. One, it'll give me extra credibility. Give me a way to keep it'll force me to stay current on stuff. And it'll hopefully be a lead magnet that people will get to know me and they'll come to the billion-dollar store or something in Iceland or something like that as a result. 01:00:18 And now it's a hefty six-figure-a-year business already just by itself. So if I did nothing else, I can make six figures a year, free cashflow, like no inventory costs, no nothing, no employee costs, like just free cashflow off of it. And it's growing and it's been super influential and it's probably been one of the best things I've done-more than speaking on 100 stages, more than being on 200 podcasts, more than having 220,000 students go through my free course. It's given me the most power, I guess you could say, or influence of anything. And that would not have happened if I stayed in my little Amazon world. But because I went to that event, I learned about it. It kind of re-triggered something from my past. And I saw the new vision or the new tools, and let me take that over to this space and that's what made that happen amazing, right there! Amazing. Thank you, Kevin, I really appreciate you coming on and sharing your wisdom, your story, and hopefully the audience can take out a couple nuggets of gold from space and apply it to their life, bring some rocks back down, bring some rocks back... yeah, thanks, thanks thanks Pasha, take care