Building Effective Client-Agency Relationships with Alex Hultgren | Ep #785

Building Effective Client-Agency Relationships with Alex Hultgren | Ep #785 Speaker 1: I want you to stop working for free. If you're tired of getting ghosted on proposals, the endless follow-ups and We'll think about it as a response. There's a better way. The top agencies aren't sending proposals. They're getting paid to pitch and close bigger deals way faster. I want you to grab this free resource I just put together at agencymastery360.com slash strategy. That's agencymastery360.com slash strategy and you'll learn how to flip the script if you want to get paid for your expertise instead of giving it away for free. Hey, Alex. Welcome to the show. Speaker 2: Thanks, Jason. Appreciate it. Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm excited to have you here. So tell us who you are and what you do. Speaker 2: Yeah, my name is Alex Hultgren. I am currently a fractional chief marketing officer. So I work with companies of various sizes to provide strategic marketing leadership for them. Speaker 1: And how did you get involved in this agency life? Speaker 2: Well, I've been in marketing for a long time. I was at Ford Motor Company in their marketing leadership program for about 14 years in various roles, both in the U.S. and internationally. Then I was running marketing for Victory Motorcycles as part of Polaris. Then I actually went agency side and I was one of the three leads on Walmart's media account as part of Hayworth's. And then I really went out on my own in 2018 and started working, you know, taking all that experience and figuring out how I can best apply it out of the marketplace and have been really doing that ever since. Speaker 1: I always like to talk to agency owners that have been on the client side, that have hired agencies and worked with agencies, and especially at the bigger brands. What were always your guys' expectations? And is there any kind of crazy stories that come to mind that we can learn from for agencies doing a better job? Speaker 2: It's interesting you say that because the thing about Ford was they had this long, particularly the Ford Blue Oval brand. I had a longstanding relationship with JWT, which really wasn't ever in question. And that grew with YNR and Ogilvy and some of the other WPP agencies that all came into play. So during my entire experience at Ford, there really wasn't ever a question of who our main agency of record was going to be. Occasionally, particularly as digital started to come into play and there were some other areas that were new, they would bring in subcontractor agencies or other vendors. I think their general model was to absorb those skill sets themselves and get to provide service and kind of stay the AOR. Honestly, during my entire experience at Ford, there really wasn't a lot of variation. Now, the good side of that is I got to know those guys really well. They were almost an extension of our team. I mean, I only had five direct reports, I think, at one point when I was at Ford, but I had a team of 50 at the agency that were working on my business. So because they were our sole focus and we were their sole focus, it was almost an extension of our team. And it was great, but I mean, there are times when If you don't like what you're seeing, you don't really have a lot of options, right? You can ask them to go back to the drawing board, but it's not like, you know, me as a manager and this one product is not going to put the agency up for review. So it's just a different circumstance. Now, contrasting that when I went to Polaris and suddenly I had a fraction of the budget I used to have. I had 15 agencies when I got there working on different aspects of the business and all kind of explaining how they could do a better job of whatever that function was than it was doing it currently. Then you're more just kind of managing, trying to juggle all these balls and that was exhausting because I wasn't used to that. Occasionally, it did make sense and we actually did consolidate it down to about nine in about a year, but it was still just a very different experience than I had come from. So in both cases, I mean, from a client standpoint, I always view the agencies as partners though. I mean, there's always a chance to build a relationship there and particularly because I think I grew up with always having Team Detroit there as part of WPP. I just assumed they were part of our team. There really wasn't this us versus them animosity there. I don't know if that's still the case. I know they've brought some other agencies in over time, but that was kind of the marketing world I grew up in. Speaker 1: How were you able, especially when you got to Polaris, because it was more of your decision there than Ford, and I'm a huge, like I was telling you in the pre-show, I'm a Ford guy. If I was going to get a tattoo of a brand, it would be of a Ford just because of all the different cars I've had and still have and love. But at Polaris, what were you looking for in your agency? Because all agencies, there's so many agencies that sound like Me Too agencies. And they always say, we want to be your partner and all this, the typical, the same things. But then afterwards, it's like Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde. Speaker 2: Yeah. What was interesting about that was too, a lot of times they would claim they could do X, Y, or Z better than the person we were currently doing it. They really couldn't. They were very much specialty agency. And when you start getting kind of below the surface, talk to other clients that are using them or realize they don't have any other clients that are actually using those services, it's like, well, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but you guys really are not suited to do this. I mean, maybe someday, but I don't have the budget for you to be the guinea pig with you here on this one. So it really came down to one, just like, do I feel like I can trust them for what they do? Do they feel like they really do know what they're doing if we're able to let them take this part of the business as well? So, I mean, I don't want to say it's all gut check, but it was really much more intuition just having worked with agencies for a while than like a spreadsheet or some sort of a checklist I had trying to figure out, you know, how best to evaluate. Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy. I've dealt with tons of agencies that we've hired and You know, it's all about just who can save you the most time. Because, look, if we had all the time in the world, we could figure out what they're actually going to do. And I don't want to have to hire an agency that I have to manage or micromanage. I just want to say, hey, here's the problem I have. Can you solve it and go do it and communicate it to me so I know what you're actually doing? You know, I mean, is that a good assumption of what you were looking for or what were some of the pains that you experienced dealing with an agency so agencies can hear this and be like, we need to eliminate this? Speaker 2: Absolutely. I think honestly, one of the challenges oftentimes Not my relationship with the agency, it was getting clarity out of the upper management on what they did or didn't like about a particular campaign or a tactic or something. So it was learning to, when the executive vice president just says, well, I don't like that. It's like, okay, well, what didn't you like? Is it the way we're showing the vehicle? Is it the color scheme? Is it the music? We need to give the agency a little more direction so we're not in a constant iterative battle of all the revisions because that gets really time consuming and expensive. So, I think part of it was, and I was almost, even though I was the client, I was taking side of the agency on this one before, like trying to extract more information and ask better questions of management sometimes when we weren't getting the feedback we had hoped. I think this went up good. Speaker 1: It's always hard for people to kind of tell you what they want without them seeing it. And they can't describe it right like it took as many years to figure out. We've even used psychiatrists in the past to help craft our questions that we ask our clients. To really kind of figure out what do they want? What do they actually need? Because we work with the biggest brands in the world too. And we would go to them and they'd be like, we don't like it. Well, what don't you like? I don't like this. Is it the color? Is it the positioning? Is it what? And it was like one little thing. We're like, well, if we take that out. Speaker 2: You know, I remember there was one time when we were launching the new Ford Focus and this would have been in probably 2010, 2011. We wanted to try something wildly different because we needed to break through. It was a younger customer and one of the challenges Ford had was, with the exception of some of the specialty vehicles like the stuff that I know you like, the overall average age of the consumer in the showroom was higher than we wanted it to be. So we're trying to attract to a group that we really hadn't done a lot, had a lot of success with in the past. So we went through a couple of different iterations and ended up with Doug the Spokes Puppet for the focus. I just remember at one point, I think it was a day before we were going to launch the campaign, the head of PR actually called my boss, the head of marketing, and said, are you guys sure about this? Do you really think people are going to be okay with a puppet being our spokesman? He just said back to it. It's a puppet. Like, don't worry about it. Clearly, nobody's going to take it seriously, right? The puppet has not taken your job. So it was funny just kind of sometimes things that, you know, in retrospect was absolutely the right thing to do. But in a traditional company, which is another problem with big companies that don't move quickly, right? It's always turning an aircraft carrier to get any done. Sometimes you just had to learn to push and push on, you know, where you could to try to make things really move forward. That was a great campaign. I don't know if you ever saw any of the footage of the dog he's built. Speaker 1: Hey, agency owners, if you're sticking with one platform for every project, you're probably stuck in a growth bottleneck. More clients means more hires, which adds noise and cuts into profits. To break the loop, you need a more flexible tool that doesn't stretch your resources. Now, Wix Studio is a smart addition to your agency's toolkit. Intuitive by design, your team can quickly master the platform and focus on the work that matters the most. Now, with robust native business solutions, Like booking, e-com, and events, you can take on any project at any scale without adding cost to third-party plugins. Plus, Wix Studio is a low-maintenance platform, meaning you can redirect client budget toward real growth initiatives. Think more value for your clients, steady income stream, and stronger relationships. Scale your agency at wixstudio.com. No, I don't remember. I remember the Ford Focus. I don't think they're doing the Ford Focus anymore. Because I remember the Ford Focus when they made the SVT car that they would use in the rally, you know, off-road and that kind of stuff. I was like, ooh, that's kind of cool. Speaker 2: Yeah, SVT is a lens through which you look at all Ford product. I realize that. Speaker 1: That's right. I'm not going to get a Taurus. Not that I get Taurus. But I remember we were doing a campaign for, I still can't say the name, a large beverage company with a red logo in Atlanta. And it was for a young urban market. And we did this campaign and the CMO walked in and was like, I don't get it. I don't like it. This is horrible. We're like, You're a fat old white guy. You're not going to get it. And so if you want to buy a million cases or whatever product that we're pushing, but what I always told people too, and what I told my team is, look, you have to, if we're doing a job, we have to always have the best interests of them in hand. And we got to be challengers to our clients of going, I see your point of view, but this is what you've told us, and based on everything you told us, this is our recommendation. And if they don't like it, walk away. Speaker 2: Well, I mean, one of the things I'll do sometimes to say, well, why don't we, why don't we AB test it? Right. And particularly if it's not a huge lift, it's just a difference in, you know, or, or just the, the focus, like we'll use the same creative, but we'll just change the tagline on the email or something and, and see which one works better. Right. Because ultimately the behavior of the customers is the only thing you should be caring about. It's not my opinion. It's not your opinion. It's what are the customers actually doing? Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the agency and the business that you have now. You know, you have no employees. It's all contractors, right? And a lot more people are going to this model rather than, you know, building a huge team. So why did you choose this versus kind of the traditional route? Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, having been client side and having been, you know, more traditional agency side as well, just having the complete flexibility and freedom of being a part of something where I'm a 1099, but I can really have a lot of, you know, I've got the ultimate authority on what I want to do or not want to do, clients I want to take or not take. I think once you taste that kind of freedom, it'd be really hard to go back to any sort of a traditional structured W2 situation. I mean, like my daughter graduated in May and we said, you want to do a party or a family trip? She's like, family trip. I was like, good kid. So we went to Hawaii for two weeks, which is fantastic. But I didn't have to put in for PTO with anybody. We just went, right? And I'd get up Crazy early in the morning because the time zones were such that my clients were here and got what I needed to get done and by noon I was done and we had the day to spend together in Hawaii. So that kind of flexibility, I think you can find it occasionally when you're part of a different organization. I don't take it, you know, nothing for a chance. I mean, we just go. So I think it's part of the reason I really like being on my own as opposed to more of a traditional structure. Now, having said that, I am part of a group called the Chameleon Collective, which is a federation of about 40 or 50 of us that are Fractional Chief Marketing Officers, Fractional Chief Revenue Officers, a couple of CTOs as well. And then we have 80 or 90 subject matter experts in areas of marketing. So what that allows us to do is go to a client, figure out what exactly their needs are, and then build a team accordingly to serve those needs. So like for example, I've got a client in New York right now, and I've got a web developer. I've got an SEO expert, I've got a paid search expert, I've got a paid social meta expert, and an analytics person. And we are putting together exactly what they need. Once the dashboard's been built, the analytics guy is kind of fading away and we're moving forward with optimization and a different approach. It's very much tailored to the exact needs of the client, and I just love the freedom and flexibility to do that. And to your point earlier, everybody is a part of this thing. It's a 1099. We're all our individual LOCs or S-corps or how we set ourselves up. So there aren't really any employees. And to me, that feels very much like the model of the future that really is the best for the individual that wants to kind of do their own thing. And for a client that's got specific needs that can be met without a lot of other traditional agency overhead, shall we say. You know, I remember there was one time at Ford, I was in meetings over at the agency, and I was in six hours of meetings, it was like four meetings in a row back to back. And there were three account managers with me in all four meetings, all six hours. And at some point, it's like, Couldn't just two of you have not been here? It's not my money, it's Ford's money, but this cannot possibly be efficient, right? I mean, isn't one person enough to keep track of everything I'm hearing and then kind of disseminating the information? Wouldn't that work too? Speaker 1: In our agency mastermind, just a little while ago, we were chatting and one of the discussions I brought up was, how is everyone really kind of getting back some of their time? And we're talking about certain technologies or AI or we're hiring VAs or blocking your calendar or saying no. And it is so important if you guys are listening to this, there's so much company waste in meetings. Like I tell our team, we always meet every Monday morning. And we're a small team, and we'll go over the stuff that everyone needs to hear, and then I'll be like, all right, Jody, you can go. You don't need to hear this part. Jump off, go do some videos, make us look cool. You don't need to hear us talking about the event in February or any of that. And then I also told everybody too, I was like, most people schedule 30-minute meetings or hour-long meetings just to meet with people. I'm like, why? Start with 15-minute meetings if you need at it. But if you always schedule like a 30-minute meeting or an hour meeting, oh, you're going to take up the whole hour. That's a lot of wasted time. Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that I picked up along my travels was a book called Traction by Gina Wickman. Speaker 1: Yep, I've had him on the show. He's great. Speaker 2: Yeah, you get it. So one of the things that I really like about that is the focus of meetings, what their intent is, and really to solve problems and not Status updates that can be sent through email should be sent through email, right? Like if you're going to bring these minds together, it should be to solve a problem and that's the purpose of the meeting and then move on. Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Well, this has all been amazing, Alex. I appreciate you sharing your insight on both the brand side and the agency side. Is there anything I didn't ask you that you think would benefit the listeners listening in? Speaker 2: Yeah, I've actually got a book called The Three Nos of Marketing. It's going to be available on Amazon. And it's really about kind of taking all the lessons I've learned over client side, over agency side, and really brings it all together on the three things that are going to be critical regardless of what kind of a business you're in. Do you know your customer? Do you know yourself? And then do you know your funnel? Because the challenge I often run into is, particularly with a new client, they want to go straight to tactics. Like, we need a meta plan, right? We need a new Google plan. It's like, okay, well, you do, but you've never actually done kind of the brand work and the heavy lifting to fill out your value proposition, right? Really figure out How to Concisely Say How You Solve Your Customer's Problems. So the first thing you got to go through is like, you know, do you understand who your customers really are? Like who your ideal customer is and who you want to go after? Which is not the same as everyone who's using your services or buying your products, but it's who it was really designed for where there's an opportunity to really have a premium. Then, do you understand how well you solve the problem? Do you know why your best customers love you? And do you know why you lose business? Like, have you ever talked to the people that leave and are you looking to the fact that, you know, yeah, you're getting a lot of new leads and business coming in, but man, this thing's a sip. You're just, everyone's caught right out the bottom after one transaction. There's an opportunity to build some loyalty there. You've got to start really understanding your customer. Then you've got to understand yourself, right? What's your mission, vision, your core values? And not just a plaque on the wall, but like, why did the founders start the business, right? Why does the CEO get up every morning and come to work? They're driven by something and there's a passion there. And is it shared with the entire organization or is that just one individual? Because you need to have that permeate the entire group so you're all on the same path together, right? Then I take some stuff from the thinking around storybrand and how you position yourself. Do you talk about yourself in terms of you or do you talk about yourselves in terms of your customer and the benefits you provide them, the problems you solve for them? We're going to tile that together into your value proposition. Now, go tackle your funnel. Now go tackle how you want to go to market, what channels you want to use, what's the most effective way to reach your customers, and to retain business as well. So anyway, I put the book together because over the last 25 years or so, these are the things that I've consistently seen will help any business grow. So whether that's an agency, whether it's a client, again, B2B, B2C, doesn't matter. The fundamentals are the same. Speaker 1: Most agencies are created by accident. And then we're reacting to everything coming to us because our business is built on word of mouth and referrals. And then we just keep kicking the bucket down the road and trying to figure out what's the next strategy or tactic where they really need to look at the foundation and make sure they build the right foundation. Because I remember there was You know, many years of kicking the can down the road. For the people that remember kick the can, I used to love that, that game, right? And it dates us. And then the streetlights would come on and we have to go home, like the no cell phones. That was really cool. But, you know, you have to build that right foundation. And I always tell people the question to ask is, if you were going to be paid on performance only, who would you do it for? And what would you do for them? And that really starts to set all of those questions in order I appreciate you sharing that. And for everyone listening, if you guys enjoyed this episode and you want to hang out with some really amazing people on an ongoing basis, make sure you reach out to us and chat about coming to our community of just agency owners that are just transparent, want to do good, do great work, amazing people to hang out with, and go to our website. And until next time. Have a Swenk day!