Building a $30M Agency with the Right KPIs, AI Hacks & Client Moves with Chris Dreyer | Ep #808

Building a $30M Agency with the Right KPIs, AI Hacks & Client Moves with Chris Dreyer | Ep #808 Speaker 2: You're listening to the Smart Agency Masterclass with me, Jason Swenk, and we're bringing you this episode courtesy of our friends at Wix Studio. Let's go ahead and get into the show. Hey, Chris, welcome to the show. Speaker 1: Thanks for having me, Jason. Speaker 2: Yeah, excited to have you on the show. It's been a little while since we've chatted and obviously you've grown pretty substantially over 30 million, which is crazy. But for the people that don't know who you are, tell us who you are, what you do. Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm the CEO of Rankings.io. We help law firms with their marketing. We have been at it for about 13 years, been on the Inc. 5000 list for the last seven years in a row, going to definitely be on it for an eighth year whenever they make the announcement this year. But yeah, that's what I do, legal marketing, still slinging the old SEO. Speaker 2: I remember us sitting in a very small room in Atlanta. For a day going over a workshop and really kind of mapping things out. And you were under the million mark at that point, if I can remember right. I think you were still trying to decide on a niche. Speaker 1: We were like peeking over it, I think. Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty remarkable to kind of see where you were and where you're at now. What was the biggest surprise? Speaker 1: I think, geez, surprises. Focus on data to make decisions is, I guess, not really a surprise, but like I'm so reliant upon it now. Speaker 2: Like how so? Like what are your KPIs? Because I remember you were at the Experience one year, and I remember you said like, if a butler, and I'll let you finish, like a butler bought you a piece of paper, right? Speaker 1: Yeah, that's kind of like the EOS, the island, you're on an island, the numbers to run your business. We have data on nearly everything from clients and how they're performing in regards to cases, not necessarily rankings and things like that, all the way to our internal metrics, our win rates, our sales cycle, our cost to acquire a client, our lifetime client value. I just looked at a monthly reporting package of It's even broken down by, you know, here's the LTV of a client's from zero to $5,000 retainers. Here's the LTV from five to 10. Here's the churn rate of each, retention rate of each account manager and we score them. It's like a scorecard, right? Same for our account executives, our sales reps. It's like, here's the jumbotron, here's the scorecard. Everybody knows where they're at, but it's top to bottom. Even things like, I was really resistant We've been doing this for literally 12 plus years for time tracking, but even time tracking for utilization. So we're implementing data across the board. I'd say the person that helped us the most was when we really got a true CFO that really introduced a lot of data into our agency. Speaker 2: So, yeah, I mean, data is king, right? And a lot of people have a hard time kind of really, let's kind of break it down into one thing. Speaker 1: Sure. Speaker 2: It should be easy to track the sales numbers on how many leads coming in to convert. But really kind of bringing out the LTV of a client or cost to acquire a client, how are you guys calculating those things? Because I think a lot of people have a hard time doing that or finding out what you were saying about You know, here's what 5,000 a month clients are worth and here's what 10,000 and all that kind of stuff. Speaker 1: First of all, I got to be really transparent. I have no freaking clue. There's different methodologies on LTV. I know we're using we move from QuickBooks to Sage for better data. That was one. On retention, though, You can look at different windows of time because of how many clients we have now. We look at it on a monthly basis, like what our monthly retention is, and we want to be 98% because we're at about 220, 230 clients and we're adding 10 to 15 new clients a month. So we're really measuring that. I actually put in a request today that I wanted to look at year-to-date retention per account manager. But it's even more than that. Retention and that percentage of kept clients is one sign, but it's also like, what's the revenue retention? If you sign a client for a $20,000 a month retainer, but then you downsell the hell out of them and they're $2,000 a month, it's like, you're not really keeping all the revenue too. So there's different ways to look at it from that perspective too. Speaker 2: Are you guys using AI to kind of crunch this data as well? Speaker 1: Every single monthly reporting package, every single component of data I upload into ChatGP, every single component. And like you said, all day, every day. From an AI agent perspective, we're not doing the full on agent perspective. We're doing more of the assisted component. We're doing it more in content and link building and optimization and strategy. For example, one thing that we do We have a board of advisors that's been created through our AI, different people, like say you want someone with more first principles types of thinking, you might do like a Carmack. If you want someone to be kind of ruthless, you might, you know, and, and cutting, you know, lean, you might do an Elon or so we'll have different board of advisors. So, you know, those EOS agencies where you have that issues list, I won't even look at an issue unless there's some context behind it from ChatGPT. Speaker 2: It's changed everything, and I've never been so excited about something. I mean, like, obviously, AI has been around for a couple of years for the general population to be able to use it and us. But just from how we use it, too, is just like you, like my bookkeeper will send me a financial report every month. And we're very similar. I'll look at it and go, numbers, no, run away. But then I will put Each one for the past year into ChatGPT, all these reports, I'm going, what should I know about this? And it will literally go, oh man, like I can see everything's trending up, but your credit card expense for the wigwam was really high. But I think that's because you had your event in Phoenix and I'm like, holy cow, and give you great suggestions. I want to know what KPIs you guys are looking at because we started really diving into our sales KPIs and marketing KPIs of going like, How many people are going to our site? How many people are going to the key pages we want? How many people are opting in? How many people are applying? How many people are booking? And the whole stage. And then I'll load that data up into chat, kind of like your board of advisors. And it'll be like, oh, you should actually create a campaign for the people that applied but didn't book. And I'm like, oh, that's brilliant. Speaker 1: So we switched over to HubSpot. Finally, I was super resistant. I was on pipe drive for a long time. Speaker 2: So expensive, but worth it. Speaker 1: It's worth it if It's just like Salesforce. Once you get to the period where you can hire the rev ops or the sales enablement person to really own it, I think that's the time to move. I think before that, if you just have a middle manager or something, RockPipe Drive or whatever you want to do, your Google Sheets. But yeah, we've got some pretty reports. Our sales cycle for inbound is like 20 days. Our outbound is like 60, right? Average deal size for inbound is actually less than outbound. Speaker 2: Really? Oh, because you're not picking it. Speaker 1: Yeah, picking who the right fit is. We even have reports that aren't in HubSpot that show based upon the amount of leads in our historical win rate for this month, How many deals we're going to win the next two to three months from the deals that originated today? So there's some interesting, you know, from a forecasting perspective that helps. But the biggest thing we're trying to do now is we've always used some form of CRM or not always, but for a long time, some CRM for sales. But now it's like our account managers were trying to get All of the customer IDs, all the accounts of our existing clients in there, because I love that top level Google sheet that shows you all the clients and the services they have, but it just doesn't work at a certain point. And I've got to put it into the reporting capabilities of like a HubSpot to show me visually where people are at, what practice areas, all the things. Speaker 2: So, on a day-to-day basis, what are the roles that you're doing now being, you know, you're 30 million in revenue, and this is not pass-through revenue, correct? These are all service feeds? Speaker 1: No. We'll be 35 to 40. Cool. Speaker 2: And so, what's your role from a day-to-day basis? Because I want to know how it changed from years ago. Speaker 1: I'll tell you one component that's never changed, and I designed it this way, and you know, Steven, my president, In the very beginning, it's almost like we're co-CEOs, really. It's like this misunderstood role of the COO. You probably read the Harvard article. My role, if I have to write a job description, is I get the clients. I'm marketing a sales. I've got my integrator, essentially, is our head of revenue. Steven, who's technically, I guess, is that number two, the integrator, but he keeps them. I get him. He keeps them. So his integrators like Sonia, who's like the processes and in charge of delivery. And like we really, I know that's simple and people operate like some number twos will be across all functions. And it's not to say like if you have a hierarchy, like it's very clear that Steven's the number two, but That's just how we operate. We split those duties. To answer your question, you know, I still do a weekly podcast. I'm doing some webinars. I set the vision, but I would say for the most part, I'm playing people Pokemon. I mean, it's got to catch them all, got to catch the best talent, got to catch better talent. And I know everyone says this, but it's everything. It's the best talent. Speaker 2: So I'd looked at it and I'll be curious because, you know, I always joked around in the mastermind with you guys and I'd be like, look, there's really kind of five roles. Once you transform from an owner doing every damn thing you can imagine to being the true CEO. And like you said, it's like setting the vision and communicating it to the team. Being the face of the organization, which you do through the podcasts and events and that kind of stuff. Understanding the numbers, but not like being a, you know, a spreadsheet nerd, but I want to understand the KPIs so I can make better decisions and then coaching and mentoring the leadership team. And that was it. When you kind of transformed into that, what point in revenue were you and how many employees did you have when you felt like you hit that swing? Speaker 1: I'll tell you, being really transparent for me, I'll give you my most challenging, like, I don't know exactly, but I'll say my most challenging milestone or pain line was from 8 to 10 million. Speaker 2: Why is that? Speaker 1: Well, for me, it was, I was very resistant to HR. And we got up to like 50 people and I was like, okay, we're going to hire an HR. Like everybody had their hands in like, oh, we need to hire a body, like all hands on deck. And at that point, it's like you're in this weird spot where you're starting to discover profit margins and where the leaks are. And it's like, okay, now we're going to hire a whole bunch of non-revenue generating employees. Let's hire a head of HR, person in finance and all these middle managers that don't generate revenue directly. So there's like this, it's a challenge. Speaker 2: It's like a no man's land. Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a no man's land. And it's like, well, shit, that sapped all my profit. But it sets you up with the infrastructure to move from 10 to 15 or 20. And I talked to Eric Huberman over at Hawk Media, and he had the exact same thing, you know, from like 8 to 12 million, at least in the agency space. And it could change now with AI, but a lot of people, you're just forced to kind of hire these non-revenue generators. And that was the biggest pain I've experienced. Speaker 2: We sold the agency many moons ago, and we had over 100 people. We experienced that no man's land around the 5 million to the 8 million, just because I think of the number of bodies that we had. You can have a lot less bodies now or employees on the team, but I remember that. I'm like, God, man, why are we hiring all these people? But you build this right foundation. And then it just starts taking off. And sometimes, like, have you gone through where you're like, I'm over my head. Like, I'm an imposter. Like, I'd probably need to sell or have someone else take this over because I don't know what the hell I'm doing. Speaker 1: I haven't got there yet. I will say I don't have hobbies. Business is my hobby. I think about it. I'm 24-7. I don't really watch sports. When I'm at home, I'm like trying to focus on being a good dad and a good husband. But like in the back of my brain is like, I got to adjust this thing on my service contractor. I've read 50 to 100 business books every year for 10 plus years. I haven't hit that. I joke with my team. I'm like, hey, the moment we stop making money or we stop growing, you guys can fire me. We'll get a new CEO. I was like, until then, you're stuck with me. Speaker 2: I think you hit something, though. When I sold my agency, the first one, I felt Like I reached the cap and this was at a time where there wasn't really ebooks, you know, there wasn't a lot of content out there digitally where that's how I learned now. And so I felt like I stopped learning. And that's why I felt like I hit my cap versus now, you know, there's videos and eBooks and all these, or like audio books and not eBooks. Anybody use eBooks anymore? That's the worst. But like, there's so much content out there that I'm constantly bringing this in kind of like you and you get excited about it. So I never thought about it that way. Speaker 1: Well, the podcast, right? And you pushed me. I was so resistant to start a podcast. Speaker 2: Everybody is. I don't know why. Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh, God, finally, I'll do it. I'll pay for it. And it's like one of the best things I've ever done. But like, there's just you gain authority. You learn. It's like a good feedback loop. It's good for sales. It's all the things. But I think that's contributed to especially since I'm so niche. And you are too, right? With your mastermind and you're talking to agency owners and you know their pains, like the back of your hand, right? Well, I know the PI attorney's pains really well. And that helps me design a better offering and address those easier. Speaker 2: Look, your agency adapts for every client, right? Your builder should do the same. And that's why Wix Studio is built for the way you actually create. AI-powered site mapping lets you get straight down to the design. Whether you shape things in Figma or start in Studio, your vision's coming to life quicker with no code animations and built-in responsiveness. And for client growth that actually scale, you've got extendable business solutions and a dynamic CMS. Scale your agency at WixStudio.com. Yeah, but going back to what you said, Connie, you can't turn it off. It's a blessing and a curse, right, of what we do. One of my great friends in Durango, his son, I'm going to college next year with my oldest is I can't believe it. And Cole is going to go to flight school and he wants to be airline pilot. And so I was asking him, I was like, why do you want to be airline pilot? He goes, well, I think it's a great job, travel the world. But the number one thing is, is when I shut that plane off and I closed the door, I'm done. I don't have to worry about it. And I never thought about it like that. I was like. That's pretty incredible. Now, this is the grass is the greener on the other side, right? And I'm like, wow, that's pretty amazing. But then he must be thinking like, oh, man, Jason and Chris, they can make their own schedule. They don't rely on other people, but we can never turn it off. Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, and I don't want to. I think if my wife was like, Nope, I think we'd have issues, but fortunately, I found the right partner that she supports me. She understands. She lets me kind of pursue these things and we'll go on a road trip to St. Louis and I'm like, can we listen to this podcast? She's like, yeah, you know, and like, so she's good with it. Speaker 2: That's the other thing. The most important decision that you'll ever make in your life is who you marry. More important than anything else. If you don't have someone that like my wife supported me and look, We'll go through stages of like we want to kill each other and that kind of stuff And I think that's still too with like business partners for the ones that have business partners and that kind of stuff Mm-hmm, but if you surround yourself with the right people that believe in that have the same values I think that's also to like is that a big thing in your company making sure they all have very similar values Like they have to watch Star Wars. Speaker 1: I Personally thought And I do love Star Wars still. I personally thought that the core value stuff was a lot of fluff. And like every time I'd hear Cameron Harreld or whoever talk about it, I'm like, I just kind of roll my eyes. Personally, I'm just being candid. But now it's like one of the most important things that we do. And we only have three. It's excellence, execution and grit. Like I want people that want to do great work. I want people that are That have tenacity that can do something for a long period of time and just really just get things done. The other things like I used to have team player and these and that, but like to me, those are like table stakes. Like if somebody's an asshole, they're just not going to last and they're not going to work here. And I don't like the aspirational ones either. It's like, this is who I am. I'm just super competitive. I like to work hard. I like to surround myself with people to get stuff done. And that's what we look for. I had an interview today Today, I was watching the first one-way interview and there was a question on there and he starts talking about how much he loves work-life balance and all these things and how he likes his time off. And I'm like, Bubba, you're out. You're out for me. Speaker 2: Have you interviewed anybody that you've seen using an AI tool? I have. Speaker 1: I haven't yet. Speaker 2: I haven't been there yet, but I'm sure it's I started asking them about the rocket emoji. I was like, what's your use of the rocket emoji and the long dash? And they're like, what does that have to do with anything? I was like, well, I was like, you're reading this from AI. Speaker 1: That's hilarious. Speaker 2: I do want to ask you, with such a big team now, how do you ensure, and this is still a struggle with small teams, how do you ensure the results and your clients are actually happy? For example, for the past year and a half, I've worked with several agencies. I've been paying them. I've been a client of theirs, and they've been so bad. Like, their communication's bad, the result's bad, and I just thought, you know, I was like, and I was asking this in the mastermind, I was like, how do you make sure that your clients are happy? And especially when you're so many levels, you know, buried. Speaker 1: It's a good question. I mean, I could give you the basic net promoter score. Right, we do that. But the reality is it's really subjective and we look for signals that I call saves. And we track saves. That's one of the KPIs we track. And it's kind of loose, but like, I'll give you a few examples of this. If a client isn't vibing or mentions a derogatory or something negative about his account manager, that's a save. It doesn't matter how the results are. We need to address that. Communication goes dark for X period of time. That's a save. There's a number of these and we've got a list of them, but we track them. And that's one of, you know, you get on the leadership weekly leading indicators. That's one of them that we track, do track, and it's a little bit different. And it also helps us because we try to prevent that and fix that, you know, in the future, like we notice that this happens, so we establish a better meeting cadence or we You know, bring in the director of accounts as a secondary in a private conversation says, hey, if you ever have any issues with this account manager, I want you to let me know. So they have an outlet. It's not just like poof, they're gone because they don't want to feel awkward. The other thing that we do on sales and accounts is we try to meet all clients in person. Speaker 2: Did you have that before Marty was talking about that? Speaker 1: We just started doing it recently. I think it's like at the end of the day with access to AI and kind of this general intelligence and like we're all kind of selling the same things, but it's we all got case studies. We all got good results. It's like it. At the end of the day, I think people want a relationship. So if we can get out there and visit them, it goes a long way. Speaker 2: I think that's key. I remember this was years ago. This is when we had the experience at my house. And I remember we had Joey Coleman at the house and he was talking about the first hundred days. And then, you know, Marty was like, well, I try to meet with them at least once a year. And like you said, with Zoom, that was something I challenged the mastermind last week. I said, how often are you meeting with your clients? Oh, all the time. No, no, no, no, no. In person. Because if you actually sit down to dinner with someone and you're just chilling and chatting and having a good time, you're going to build a lot more rapport and they're going to be less likely to someone I just chat with on Zoom every once in a while. You know, it drives me crazy. Speaker 1: Yeah. Also, it's like, you know, you go meet a sales prospect in person, you go to their law office, you get to learn their secretaries, their top trial attorneys, what the real pains are. Like, I may not even do the service, but if I help them, it's like, okay, Chris really wants my business to succeed. So he cares. So obviously he cares about the SEO or the PPC or whatever. So that goes a long way. I mean, Steven and I, me and the president, we literally went to San Antonio a couple weeks ago, meet somebody in person, and we have a budget. Actually, the CFO budgets. Uh, travel for account managers and sales reps, like it's in the budget. So it's just something I think that's going to be more and more important as kind of the, you know, I was telling people, I was like, just to stand out, you just got to do what you say you're going to do. Speaker 2: That's point one. Like most people don't do that. And then you're going to get me results and you're going to meet with me. Like, especially if you didn't sell the deal and you're like, oh man, this. Big time, you know, CEOs coming out to see me like, you know, it goes a long way, even though they're like, they know us. Speaker 1: They're like, you know, it's like our lifetime client value across all of our clients is like, Let's say $125,000. So you mean to tell me it's not worth it to go spend $500,000 to jump on a plane to go? When you think of it that way, it's like wild how important that is. Speaker 2: Yeah. You get a lot more than you expect. You recently made an acquisition. And I would have thought you would have done it a lot sooner. Like you were already at 30 million. And a lot of times I see agencies, they kind of hit around the 10 million mark, and then they just can't scale as fast. And that's why they kind of buy. But you kind of waited to the 30 million. So why did you wait so long? Speaker 1: We did it. So I had a couple, you know, chances or conversations with different agencies. So a few reasons for this. One, I didn't have the confidence to do it myself. ChatGPT, I'm telling you, look, I sound cheesy, but it gave me the confidence. What are the questions I need to ask in preliminary due diligence? Based upon this information, what would be a recommendation for the LOI? What's my post diligence checklist? How do I set up the data room? I'm sure I could talk to people and find that information out, but at my fingertips with ChatGPT, it made it Way easier, even to the point where I uploaded the financials. Where are the inconsistencies? Where are the holes? Where are the opportunities? Where this and that? And how should I structure the earn out? So that was one is I didn't have the confidence and it gave me the confidence. The other is that also gave me confidence. We have a great CFO. Knows the numbers, knows what intrinsic value is and all the numbers and based upon like we could measure what the investment here would be versus growing our inbound and outbound team and like so. That's why. But we're looking to do more now. I feel more confident and I'm glad I did it. Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's exciting. So it's amazing the tools that we have at our fingertips, you know, outside of just Just asking it a simple question, but like the data crunching is it. That's kind of why for the past couple of weeks, like I've just been just jumping into it. Like I can't turn it off. I take it where it takes all our transcriptions from the mastermind, uploads it to a document. And then maybe, I don't know if you're doing this, you should for your salespeople. We created a little agent that takes the transcriptions and all the different things and then looks for certain criteria. Like, did you ask for the meeting in the next meeting? All these different things to evaluate that. Speaker 1: That's really good. Speaker 2: Like each call. It's mind blowing. Speaker 1: I use it so much. We just opened our pool and I saw some like algae stuff on the rocks. I just took a picture and uploaded to ChatGPT. I'm like, how do I get rid of this? And it's like, do this, this and this. And I'm like, And like it instantly just knew what it was, like you didn't give it hardly any. And Jason, too, I'm like, there is a prompt engineering, Chris, that will like give it the very detailed instructions. But then there is I'll get an email. I'll throw it in there and I'll say, fix this and we'll just write it better. So like there's a lazy side of me, too, that will use it. But yeah, I'm using it for everything. Another thing that I did, I uploaded all my service contracts, all my proposals. I'm like, make these better. Where are my weaknesses here? Oh, you should modify your pricing. You should change this deliverable. You should talk about the outcomes more. And it's just, it's easy. It makes sense. Speaker 2: I think in order to be good at this business, I think, and especially going forward, And this is a trait that you have. You have to have that curiosity, right? Because those are all curious questions. And that's kind of what I've been jumping into, too, of like, I'm curious about this. Like, even going back to you throwing those, you know, all the numbers of agency that you bought in there and say, like, what are the holes? Like, everyone listening, you should upload your numbers, all your numbers, and picture, like, ask, you know, AI, be like, you're buying this company. What are the holes? What would you look at? And those are the improvements you should work on. Speaker 1: Yeah. Based upon all my previous prompts, where are my blind spots? Speaker 2: And it's like, don't hold back. Speaker 1: I'm ready for this next chat GPT version because there's bias to it. And it's like too friendly. It needs to be more discerning sometimes. So like, I'm like, ChatGPT, not everything I say is a great answer. That's an excellent idea and blah, blah, blah, blah. I try to coach it up to be more discerning, to give more direct feedback as opposed to everything's a good idea because not everything it gives me is a good idea. Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, we've been trying to go back and forth between Gemini and Elon Musk and Claude and all of them. As we're recording this in middle of May, chat is crushing everyone else that I've been using for going through other stuff. Speaker 1: Yeah, outside of the audio stuff from the LLM. Speaker 2: Or the images. Speaker 1: Yep, both of those. We took like what we've been doing to, I'll just tell you some other nerdy stuff that we've been doing is we'll take like an SOP or a process and I'll upload it and I'll have it turned into a curriculum. But then I, I, we created a female and a male and we have them teach it in an audio version. And we introduced, yeah. And we introduced a dad humor, like light humor. So it's not just, Super boring. Some of the jokes miss really badly, but it at least breaks it up a little bit. Speaker 2: That is good. Yeah, I remember when Notebook LM came out and people were all just putting their website in. Again, I'd put my website in. They'd be like, hey, have you heard of this Jason dude? And just going back and forth. And I was blown away. I use it more on that of like, so like on this podcast. Once we upload the video, I actually put the video into NotebookLM and it will create me a transcription. Then I'll take that transcription and then we'll load it through our marketing mark agent. We even named him. He's even on our website, an AI agent. And then we'll be like, hey, let's create some stuff out of this. And it knows our tone. It knows everything. And like, we've trained the hell out of this thing. Like it, it knows all of our podcasts for the past 11 years. Speaker 1: Wow. I haven't went to that extent. I need to. Speaker 2: It knows all of our success stories. So like literally today on the mastermind call, Mike was like, well, how would you train someone? I said, well, let me show you. I just went into it. I said, tell me a success story about Mike. And it literally goes, oh, Mike, blah, blah, blah. And then it went through it. And he was like, holy cow. Like, that's all I had to ask it. Speaker 1: That's wild. It's amazing. Speaker 2: That's fun. Well, awesome, Chris. Well, is there anything I didn't ask you that you think would benefit the listeners listening in? Speaker 1: I would just say, good question. I love the softball for me there. I think the biggest thing for me has been just, I was so resistant to do outbound sales. And now that I'm hunting at all times, instead of just hoping and praying that the good lead comes in through the contact form, it's been a game changer. I would say there's even a more refined math component to outbound than there even is in an inbound, and that was a big changer for me. We talk about referrals being feast or famine, but even inbound marketing can kind of be feast or famine compared to outbound sales. Speaker 2: Well, you're on borrowed time. You're on borrowed real estate that you don't control. So as Google changes or as behaviors change from Google to chat or wherever, you're at the mercy of this. That's why I always told everybody, I was like, you need an outbound, inbound, and strategic partnership channel. One goes down, two goes down, you're still living. And you can figure out the rest. So you're outbound. How are you guys doing it? Are you inviting them on a podcast? Is it outbound email, LinkedIn connections, all of it? Speaker 1: There's about 30 people in our sales now. We've got about 10 to 15 what we call BDRs because we don't have them only hitting the phone. We like them to get 50 dials a day if we can, but they're quality dials and then they have freedom to do other channels. Speaker 2: They're actually calling law offices. Speaker 1: We gift my book to every single person that's contacted with a handwritten note. Every single one. We also have a gifting cadence. Speaker 2: You must have carbon tone. Speaker 1: Yeah, right. And then we've got four closers. So we do segment outbound and the closers. I think for PI, there's enough margin to do that for these other areas along. I'm actually trying to discover if I need the full cycle rep because I don't know if I can pay both people. It's kind of tighter on the margins there. But then we have a whole sales enablement team that just works with the CRM and the contacts like the lists. So we have a PI sales enablement person, a criminal defense sales enablement person. And then, you know, we have the leaders, right, for each of those. But BDR to AE is the main kind of... Speaker 2: And you control your destiny with that, with the right people. Where do you find them? Do you take them from some of the big companies out there or do you train them up? Speaker 1: Nearly all of them are taken. Being transparent, like your good sales reps are not like on Indeed. They all have a job and they're all President's Club. The good thing about the sales reps is they're money motivated. So if you can paint a picture from the money motivation perspective, they're easier to snag than say, someone that doesn't have that same type of motivation. Like sales guys are money motivated. Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it. Well, amazing, Chris. Well, thanks so much for coming back on the show and for everyone listening, like this out, share it. And until next time, have a Swenk day.