Build Your Agency’s Dream Team and Land Dream Clients with Jon Rivers | Ep #779

Build Your Agency’s Dream Team and Land Dream Clients with Jon Rivers | Ep #779 Speaker 3: I want you to stop working for free. Speaker 1: If you're tired of getting ghosted on proposals, the endless follow-ups and We'll think about it as a response. There's a better way. Speaker 3: The top agencies aren't sending proposals. Speaker 1: They're getting paid to pitch and close bigger deals way faster. Speaker 3: I want you to grab this free resource I just put together at agencymastery360.com slash strategy. That's agencymastery360.com slash strategy and you'll learn how to flip the script if you want to get paid for your expertise instead of giving it away for free. Hey, Jon, welcome to the show. Speaker 2: Thanks for inviting me, Jason. Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm excited to have you on. Tell us who you are, what you do. Speaker 2: So I'm Jon Rivers. I'm a co-founder and co-owner of an agency called Marketeering. We focus purely in the B2B space and just taking that deeper, I'd look at it if we say industries, which we quite often tell our B2B customers, we're really heavily in the ERP CRM space. That's where we support the partners and what we call ISEs, add-on solutions that are adding on to those ERPs. At the same time, I would take that down even deeper is that we spend a lot of time in the Microsoft ERP CRM space. That's where we really spend most of our time, not limited, but that's where we have most of our clients. Speaker 3: Awesome. And how'd you get started? Was this by accident or? Speaker 2: That's also a funny story, right? So how did I get to where I am? I always like to go back a step. I actually trained as a developer, got into development, started to realize dev was not the place for me, ended up migrating into help desk, running help desk consulting. A company I joined was in the ERP space. So I worked heavily in that, ran a team when I came over to the US and the UK. And as I grew with that, we then suddenly had a little bit of a problem with the product we had, is that the company that we were connecting to suddenly got picked up by Oracle. And that just messed us all up. I then worked with some developers to actually go out there, build some integration into the Microsoft ERP space, and then really help grow from a pre-sales channel side that ISE to be well-known. Then I jumped into another ISE around all their channel. And this is a long story, right? So at the end of the day, but eventually as I was working for that last ISE, I had to do a lot of marketing myself. I got out there, used a lot of social media. It's funny we hear going around today the word social selling. I feel like I was doing that 15 years ago when LinkedIn was new, where everyone uses a resume and I built it out. From there, I left that organization and then realized that a lot of the people that I knew and worked with in the partner ecosystem I really needed help at that time with social media. So I actually kicked off another agency at that time. And then during COVID, I joined forces with my partner in crime, Dan Sager, and we kicked off Marketeering to really grow the business and focus in this ERPCRM space. So probably by accident, but yeah. Speaker 3: Yeah, I started off as a developer, but you know, the problem with me starting off as a developer because I mean, that's what my degree was, but I just sat by really smart people and I outsourced all my programming work. So when I did get a job as a programmer, I was like, what the hell is this? And I was always more of a creative, like a designer. Like I was a cartoonist. I love design. But when I met my old business partner, he was a programmer. So I was like, look, you do the programming, I'll do the design and let's see where it takes us. Speaker 2: My first ever job, if anyone, well, everyone knows what fonts are. When you're using Word and other stuff, I actually work for a company that actually produced fonts. This goes back and this probably starts to date me very quickly. Back in the days of laser printers, used to have these cartridges that used to plug in. We used to develop probably the most of those around the world. HP was a big client of ours as well as others. So yeah, so I had to be creative in that role and I think it just just kept on wanting to come out. And then when I got the opportunity, it came out. Speaker 3: That's awesome. What are the stages you felt like you guys went through when you started the agency to where you're at now? Like how many stages do you think you've gone through? Speaker 2: I said we've gone through the good times and the bad time stages, good growth, and then it slows down and go backwards. And then you sort of like you take a step back, but then you take two steps forward. And I think we've just gone through that again this year. Speaker 3: When you start an agency, it's fun and you're getting clients, you're making money. You don't have many people, if any, and you're just like, man, this is awesome. And then you're like, I want more of this. I want to scale it. So when did you guys go through kind of the bad times where you felt like you did two steps back? Walk us through that. Speaker 2: I think it's one of the learning curves I think we went through was at the end of the day is you take on some good sized clients and then over a period of time, you're being successful with those clients and then they decide that they're actually going to take someone in turn. And that could then change the relationship because it could be either of the following. It could be that they hire someone that has their, so they hire a director of marketing or just even a marketing manager. And then they decide that that person comes in that really wants to bring in their own team. Right, so maybe they've been out there for a while. They have their relationships. They don't want to work with you, right? So, at the end of the day, that disappears. Now, the relationship is still there, but it just doesn't continue. Or it could be that that person has come in, it just doesn't have the same thoughts and strategy as what you've been doing with the client, so they go their own direction. Now, not all clients go that. Sometimes it goes the other way, right? We still end up doing additional business for them, not necessarily the fractional CMO, the strategy and all that, because now they have someone in turn. I think some of that, we lost a few clients through that, but we've gone back and we've started to evaluate them, start to learn that that's not a bad thing if that happens, because what we've done is actually got that client to a successful situation where they can hire someone. And we should be proud of ourselves because we've got them there. Speaker 3: I think that's a good way to look at it because I used to take it personal when people would join our community and our mastermind and then they would leave. And I'd be like, you were in it for three years, four years. We became really close friends. I'm like, why are you leaving us? But then I realized, I'm like, you guys are graduating. You've graduated to a point where you can sell your agency. You've graduated to a point where You are not the CEO anymore. You can get on the board of directors of your own agency and you don't have to run it and you can go do all these little side projects. And I started looking at that way and I was like, okay, cool. Like we've done our job because you're never going to hold on to your clients forever. And another thing too, I looked at, especially when I remember us going a couple of steps forward or a couple of steps back when I felt like we took a couple of steps back and I chat with people about this all the time. And you tell me if this resonates. Like you lose three clients and you're like, man, I took a huge hit and I was counting on that. Does that go back to your pipeline or maybe like at that time was your business based on referrals and word of mouth? Speaker 2: I think there's two. I think there is that. I think it's also is. When you're trying to grow your practice, I think probably for a lot of folks, right, is that we even as co-founders or founders or whatever level at the C-level is that you also get yourself into the weeds. You're doing a lot of the stuff that technically others could do, but you still are not letting go. And yeah, it could affect the pipeline. At the end of the day is you end up working in the weeds for five days a week. But you're not doing enough to really drive that next opportunity. I can see you agree this 100%. I think it happens to everyone, right? Speaker 3: It's the agency hamster wheel, right? Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 3: You go, I want more clients. So you go out, you do sales, you do marketing as an owner. And you get that client and then you're like, oh, I need to do that work. So then the owner is actually doing that work that you should not be doing. First off, the owner should not be doing sales. It shouldn't be doing marketing, right? Like when you get that scale. And so you're doing all this and then you start going, oh man, sales is taking a hit. Now I need to hire someone to take this. Then you hire someone and then you're like, oh my gosh, the business is not as profitable. Now I need to sell more. And it's just this cycle up this hamster wheel that just keeps going around. And the only way I felt like I was able to get out of it or I see agency owners get out of it is just going, look, I'm going to realize my role as a CEO versus an owner. So I'm curious, what do you think the most important roles as the CEO, as the owner to really take the agency to the next level is for you guys? Speaker 2: I would say it's changing the mindset to understand that you cannot be in the weeds. I think that's a number one takeaway for me. And the fact that you got to get out there, but at the same time, if you're getting to that point or at some point in the future, if you want to get to a point where you sell the agency, You can't be in the weeds, right? At the end of the day, to be able to step away when you purchase, well, at the end of the day, if you're the one doing all the work, you're not going to be as valuable and you're going to continue being in the weeds. So you've got to find a way to do that, but I think that that is a big challenge. Speaker 1: Hey, agency owners, if you're sticking with one platform for every project, you're probably stuck in a growth bottleneck. More clients means more hires, which adds noise and cuts into profits. To break the loop, you need a more flexible tool that doesn't stretch your resources. Now, Wix Studio is a smart addition to your agency's toolkit. Intuitive by design, your team can quickly master the platform and focus on the work that matters the most. Now, with robust native business solutions, Like booking, e-com, and events, you can take on any project at any scale without adding cost to third party plugins. Plus, Wix Studio is a low maintenance platform, meaning you can redirect client budget toward real growth initiatives. Think more value for your clients, steady income stream, and stronger relationships. Scale your agency at wixstudio.com. Speaker 3: Yeah, I see it as you got to build the leaders within your organization. Right, right. And the most important thing I have to do is I have to set the vision and have to communicate it to the whole team. This is not like a You know, it's not like a retreat. You know, you have once a year retreat and go, all right, gang, get together. This is our mission for the year. This is our goal. And then everyone forgets about it. I'm like, no, no, no, like you have to live and breathe it. And then I also looked at it as I needed a coach and mentor my leaders to be better leaders. When I started doing that, then it enabled me to have freedom. And I remember going through this, I would go into like a meeting and be like, I go into a creative meeting, no, Jason, we don't need you. Go into a sales meeting, no, Jason, we don't need you. And I'm like, son of a bitch, like the agency doesn't need me anymore. And I would get depressed, but then I realized I was like, agency needs me for something else. Speaker 2: I think there's another piece to that one as well, Jason, at the end of the day is also as you're evolving as an agency is the people that you may have had at the beginning It may not be the people who are going to stay with you. And that's not necessary in a bad way. It's just the evolution. It's like any business, right? Everyone evolves with that. And we went through that probably in the first year and a bit as we got more into thought leadership content and deeper into some of the writing we were doing. I just look back and I think about one of the writers we had. Great writer, but was really struggling with what we needed. And they were probably our number one writer, but we held onto it too long. And I think they also held onto it too long, which actually affected some of our relationships. But we were able to turn that back around. We ended up having a conversation and it all worked out. And it was like, The writer at that time was a contractor and it was like, as soon as we had the conversation, the hands were up. It's like, thank goodness you are the ones I was scared to reach out to you because I didn't want to leave you at a lurch because you were a beginner. But yeah, I think it's that and it's finding those right people. Speaker 3: Someone told me a long time ago, because that happens, the team you start with is not going to be the team that you end with. And I think a lot of us, we have these personal connections and we treat everyone on the team, especially early on as family. And there's a different way to look at it. I want you all to look at it as they're your dream team. Do you remember like the NBA came up with their dream team for the Olympics like in 95 or something like that? Speaker 2: I don't know fully. I mean, growing up in England, we didn't really, I mean, for me, I'm more of, okay, we'll say it correctly. I'm a football fan, not a soccer, but here. So that's probably more, but I do, I can understand where you're going. Speaker 3: You sure your accent sounded like you were from Mississippi. Speaker 2: It's funny you say that. People will ask us like, I'm from New York and it's like, everything goes quiet for a while. It's like, are you sure? Speaker 3: Yeah, no, they must have been on the secret sauce or something if they said New York. But back in the Olympics, they came up with a dream team for the NBA. It was kind of the first time they would bring the NBA players in to the Olympics because before then it was kind of like amateur athletes. And that's kind of how I look at teams now is they're not my family, even though I kind of treat them like family and they're friends and like I do anything for them. But, and they even know they're the dream team. And sometimes people will get to different phases in their life and then they'll have to move on. But if you treat it as a dream team, it's easier because you can't get rid of your family. And the worst thing I see, you know, we just got back from Our digital agency experience in Colorado. And I remember chatting with one of the members, Jennifer, and she got just got rid of her COO and she treated. This person liked family and literally this family member, so-called family member, almost literally took the agency to the brink. And she'll make it through, but it just screwed up everything and she has to kind of reset everything. But if she treated it as a dream team and realized months ago, this person was not the right fit, she might not have been in the situation she had to go through. Speaker 2: It is tough. And I 100% agree with that. As I said, all the folks that we took on early. Probably a little bit more friends and family and hopefully some of those people may be able to turn into a dream team as well. Not to say some haven't, but it's also I think sometimes for us is trying to find the experience we need because of us being very focused in a certain domain. So, of course, we're probably going to know these people that we're bringing in. So that sort of adds a little complication. But yeah, that's definitely one of the hiccups we've gone through. I think the other hiccup I would have said was, and we're still re-evaluating it as we go. Every quarter we re-evaluate when the invoice comes in. It's all the tools that we have to invest in. And some days it's like, do we really need that? Could we get rid of that? I don't think people realize, and I'll take someone having their own marketing department at a customer, how much it costs to have all these tools to be successful. That really puts a lot of weight on an agency because it's a bit like your wages, right? At the end of the day, I don't want to get too heavy into healthcare, but at the end of the day, if you're buying your own healthcare, you've got to earn X amount of money before you can even put food on the table. So it's a balancing act of that as well. And as you grow is that can get more and more expensive. Speaker 3: Yeah, I always look at expenses or expenses. And I always would start with kind of the end in mind going, you know, what is my profit margin I want? Or even before then, what is the money that I want to make? And then what does the agency need to make? And then also too, like if my goal is to sell one day and I know I need to be at a certain EBITDA in order to hit the number that I want, it's always backwards mathing into it of going, all right, where do we need to be? Where do I need to, you know, what decisions do I need to make? And a lot of times it's kind of getting to a place where when's the last time I raised my prices? You know, I, we have a drinking game in the mastermind. I swear they do because every time I tell any of the members on our meetings to raise their price or create a podcast, everyone takes like a sip. And, you know, at the end of the day, it's kind of like raising your prices and charging enough a lot of times fixes that, right? Like if your expenses are X, paying a ton to all these softwares and these resources and all that kind of stuff, Yes, you should evaluate that of going, which is the must, which is the nice to have, which is one that we don't need. You should do that on a quarterly basis. Totally agree on that. But even before that, it's like, am I charging enough? I see agency owners and agencies we look at, their margins are so slim that one little thing happens, they're in the negative or they're just breaking even. You need to charge way more and then they'll typically say, well, my clients want to pay that. Well, you need new clients. Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, we've definitely go through that with some of the campaigns we do and it's always a I would say a little bit of a challenge because some of it's also trying to use that as a door opener for that client to come for a longer period and then we can actually get to earning some better money from it, but also going back and also just overviewing and looking at what your expenses are. So one of the things that we learned early on was there was a client we were working with that we were doing all the content writing, we were supplying it to them. Twelve months later, they came in and said, look, none of this is getting ranked by Google. It's like, okay. So we started to delve in, we did some SEO auditing, only to find out is every piece of content that they have posted, they'd put no index on it. So at the end of the day, Google was never going to pick up the stuff. So at the end of the day, it's like they really messed themselves. So from that point onwards, we always run SEO on any client, even that we're not offering as a service, we want to keep an eye on, hey, are they tracking? At the end of the day, I'm just taking one small piece of the analytics that we want to do to make sure that we're being successful. But one mistake we probably did earlier on is that we didn't include the cost of that service. Right? Even that we weren't necessarily showing the customer, right? We were in an indirect way because we wanted to keep an eye on to prove we were successful. Speaker 3: You know, I would actually tell you to tell people that or because I'm all about going to a client and getting my foot in the door. But I would tell them, I go, look, I'm willing to take it on the chin on this one just to prove ourselves to you. Our prices are normally this big. I'm not saying raise your prices on all your clients right away. I do it in phases. Like one of the mastermind members, Dean, he was kind of in this situation and I told him, I said, look, any of the new prospects coming in. Speaker 1: You're going to raise your prices. Speaker 3: So then when you're double the amount of your current clients, then you can go to your current clients. If they call you on your bluff, you can get rid of them. And usually what happens is you have all your new prospects, they pay you double. I'm just using that as an easy example. Then you go to your existing clients going, hey, we're doubling our prices. We haven't raised prices in 10 years. It's going to be this. You have this amount of time to decide. Usually what happens is about half of them will say yes, the other half will go away. So now you have less work for your team, more profitability, and then the difference makes up. But with Dean, all of his clients said yes. So he made $76,000 more a month in reoccurring revenue by doing this. And it's like, cool. Now we have some money to go do stuff, to invest back in the agency, to Tell that great story. And then the cool part about this story with Dean, I think 12 months later, because he was so profitable, he sold and got an 8X multiple. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: Good. 8X is a good number. Yeah. And I mean, we've been going through that, um, this year is finding where we can start to lift up. I think there's also that also sort of leads in, I think depending on the ecosystem you're working in is, is knowing when to turn down clients as well. And I think lifting pricing up to where it should be will sometimes turn away those folks, but at the same time as you talk to them and you start to learn, or even if you do take them on, don't be scared to walk away. I think that's one of the things we've, as a team, probably learned at least in the last... I did it previously in my other agency, but probably didn't do it because we were early. Should have listened to myself earlier on, and now we're probably listening to that more. Speaker 3: Yeah, you definitely know when you reach another phase in your business when you actually get selective. And you actually live it, not just, you know, the fake, the fake, well, we only take on certain clients and, but when you get selective, you know, you know, you've reached that next level, which is great because now you're saying, you know, no to the wrong thing. So you can have the ability to say yes to the right one. So coming in. So, well, Jon, this has been amazing. I want to thank you for coming on the show. Is there anything I didn't ask you that You think would benefit the listeners listening in? Speaker 2: I think at the end of the day, we had a good conversation there. I could go back to your comment just now. It's like, you know, when you've got to a certain level about saying no, don't be scared of doing that early on, even if it puts your profitability to be tight, because I think doing it early on actually is more beneficial as well. Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. Well, awesome. Thanks so much for coming on the show. And for everyone listening, if you guys, you know, we just put out advanced training for agencies on generating more leads, converting at a higher percentage, building a self-driven sales team, and a whole lot of other cool free resources. That's totally free. If you go to Swenk.it, it will take you to that page. So go to Swenk.it and until next time, have a Swenk day.