AI Expert: Brands Are Getting Left Behind by...

Hey, I think we have a three-year window here to actually make a lot of freaking money. We are being a little bit too micromanagy and I think AI is becoming a bit of a teenager now. Like it was a bit of a toddler. Now it's become a little bit of a teenager. It can do a lot more without having to tell it what to do. We have to look at the way we're hiring people. If you're starting a company, one of the main people you got to have on your staff is somebody that can understand AI. Are you training people to do the work? Are you training people to train the software to do the work? You're watching the marketing misfits with Norm Ferrar and Kevin King. Hey. Hey. It's the Misfits. It's your good old buddies, uh, Norm Ferrar and Kevin King. How you doing, Mr. Ferrar? I'm doing good. I am looking forward to getting out there and, uh, trying a new cigar. I I know. You got me You got me corrupted now. It's all your fault. I'm sorry. I I smoked a rare pink the other night by I never smoke by myself and I always smoke socially and then I go off and have a little sbatical in uh in the Caribbean in St. Barts and I'm smoking Cubans by myself and writing notes. I'm like this is actually loosening up my mind and pretty good. So now you got me going on my balcony occasionally and actually smoking a cigar. I'm like gosh dang it that Norm Corruptor guy. Yeah. Yeah. And uh you know, thank God it wasn't the crystal meth uh I did I did find I I did find I was cleaning out I I uh I had a I got a new humidor. Yeah. Uh to replace one that was kind of on the brink and I was cleaning out the old one and buried behind some stuff on the very bottom shelf was some old paraphernelia from my ex-wife. I was like, "Oo, what is this doing here?" Uh so I was like, "That's not that's not my scene." So, um I I took uh some pipes and some different things. I don't even know what they do. U you know, obviously they were for smoking something besides cigars. Uh but were they branded? Like did they have any logos or anything brand? No, they might have been there might have been something on it. Um but those I was like those are those are out of here so there's no confusion. Um but yes, I mean it's it speaking of confusion. Um there's a lot of confusion right now out there in the marketing world when it comes to SEO and what are they calling it? a AIO or AI optimization and and our guest today is someone that you know she was at the recent BBSS event and she talked about this uh there and uh um a lot of people are like oh what's she talking about I don't quite get it but she's on the leading edge of this stuff uh isn't isn't that right Norm yeah absolutely and when we bring her on and this lady amazes me she's been on my podcast uh a couple times and just love having her on uh she gets right to the point. She knows her stuff and uh well, why don't we just bring her on and she can start too. Let's do it. And hopefully there's Mora, no multi-elabic words, please. Just keep it down down here just for me. But a good friend of mine, fourth grade level for Norm. Yeah. Yeah. Fourth grade level. But uh I'm going to introduce Amora. Let me see this. I told you I'm going to screw this up. Amareggi. So we'll bring her on stage right now. Oh, there she is. Hey, how you doing? I'm awesome. Thanks for asking. How are you all doing? Great. You know, the first time that we met, I don't know if you remember that, but that was at M3. It was a a networking event and Scott Cunningham uh in in uh introduced us and then we went out to dinner and just listening to you talk, I'm sitting there going, "Wow, I really have to get to know this person." you know your stuff and you've always amazed me the the new things that you're talking about or putting it in perspective like I remember on the my podcast the lunch with Norm podcast it was simple but you broke it down really interest just schema you know a lot of people didn't understand schema and how important it is uh for websites and you just we spent an hour on that and I got a a bunch of um just messages DMs telling us thank you very much I I we had no idea. And so four or five people reached out after that and so thank you for that. And today wait no I'm wait you can't just jump over that. What schema? What did you say? Schema sounded like you said another word but schema. Schema. Go ahead. What what is schema? Amara schema is nothing more than structured data. Right? So think of it as you have water. You put it in a glass, it's structured. It's in a glass, right? Otherwise, if it's in, it's just a puddle. It's a lake. It's unstructured. It's there. You could still use it for something, but it's a lot harder to use. You don't know what it's there for. It's just there. If by looking at it, it looks like water, but it could be something else, right? And so, when you structure your data, um, not only does the glass have say like look like it's got water in it, you can actually put a label on it that says water, right? So, when you look at it, it's actually understood that it's water without having to guess. And so with schema all it is is just structure your data so that search engines and and and chatbt LLMs open AAI uh anthropics whatever LLMs you're using can better understand and vectorize your content humans. So, you know, when you do that that initial search, all of a sudden, let's say you're uh putting up a recipe or you have a blog article or it's a website. It could be almost anything, but you'll notice the websites that don't have it compared to the ones that do and catch your eye. It might even be a ratings for something, but you can do this and it's uh it's very simple, very simple to do. Any uh web developer should be should understand it. And if they do, that's actually a question you should be asking is, you know, do they understand uh schema? Yeah. And so this is something in the back end. So she said it's to make sure that the water that's you understand that it's water, not a puddle. Uh but you understand it's water. Uh even though they're the same thing. Um it's the same composed of the same thing. So is this a way uh Norm and Amara that you I'm just I mean I understand schema. I'm asking for the audience. Is this a way that you like code something in in the background uh in like in your HTML or or whatever? It's like you're you're putting sub certain headers and certain uh uh H1, H2, H3 tags and so on and certain things the way you label them. Can you explain a little bit or give an example maybe on that schema? So not to get too technical but Google which tends to rule all things in the search world um even with you know the checkbts and perplexities of the world uh there if you go to schema.org you can see all of the rules around schema schema is JSON that you add to the back to the back end of your site. So you don't it's not on the front side where you know you see the code or see see it displayed on the front side of your site. It's like metadata, right? Like a metatitle metad description. We're all used to that, right? So it's additional metadata that is back there that structures the content that's on your page. And sometimes it's off-page content like what date was this published? You don't necessarily have that information on your page or blog post, right? But in your schema you might have date that it was published, date that it was updated, author information uh and it and it helps the search engine to understand re recency how recent this content is versus it having to guess. Just one example. Okay. So starting off with schema but let's talk about a little bit about you a bit more. So I was amazed uh we were driving back from that initial meeting uh to find out how experienced you are on the other side of the fence, forget the marketing side, but just operations and then we got talking and you are a uh gold partner over at HubSpot. Uh, so I'd like to talk to you about that because a lot of people, a lot of marketers and I, you're it was so funny because I was saying, "Oh, well, we don't use HubSpot. It's too expensive." And you were saying, "Well, there's only one. There's just use HubSpot. It's not too expensive." Just hear me out. And you know, we'll we'll talk about that. We'll get into that. but also you have an agency called full stack and you're also one of the um higher level uh moder uh u moderators for uh digital marketer uh one of their uh well I don't even I think that's changed now uh but what is it the foundation room is that uh scalable scalable okay so uh scalable you take care of all that highle questions Smart lady. Smart lady, Kevin. And you had all this smartness at the Iceland event and you didn't get into it. She should have had the the one room to herself. That was an amazing event, by the way. Great job, you all. Never miss it. Never miss an event like that again. For sure. It was amazing. I appreciate that. Yeah, Iceland was uh was good. So, just for those listening, I do an event BDSS and it's Amazon focused. And then after that event, I do one um that's called Elevate 360, which is not Amazon focused, and it's to help e-commerce sellers up their game outside of Amazon. And Amara was one of the uh the speakers at that, and u she blew some people away uh with some really, really, really good operational and SEO SEO stuff. So, so what is your main focus right now, Omar? Are you are you juggling a bunch of different hats like what Norm just uh rattled off or is there one main thing that's like your focus and these others are just little like side hustle side project deals? Actually, I have some very I have a huge I have huge news to share with you and these are the first ones that I'm telling outside of um any contractual obligations. You guys ready? Ready. Wait, wait, wait, wait. All right. Don't hit that button. Norm I'm listening. All right. So, I just sold my agency. What? Oh, really? All right. Yeah, it just got purchased by a um private equity firm. So, I'm going to be more like a CRO, but CMO CTO for a portfolio companies valid between two and four$400 million um dollars doing the marketing the marketing and revenue operations work um for our portfolio of companies which starting July 1st. No. So, so we didn't have a chance. We didn't even have a chance of getting you to work with us. We tried, Norm. We tried, but you said, "Oh, just hold on. We can get her cheaper later. It'll be okay." And now And now, look, you know, price has tripled. Yeah. Yeah. So, this is So, you're going to be helping So, the private equity is buying your agency and then you're staying on to help manage their whole portfolio stuff. Did I understand that correctly? Yeah. So, commercial real estate, um, re, uh, retail, health and beauty and wellness, uh, some coffee shops. So, some really, really cool lifestyle brands doing a lot in very interesting spaces that people have kind of disappeared from, but are going to be coming back to. It's very, very interesting. like instead of malls being destroyed, we're actually buying strip malls and uh rebuilding them and bringing, you know, more luxurious, more lifestyle brands into them, which is really, really cool. Um, and all sorts of things. Rebuilding them as a mall or rebuilding them as tearing down part of it, using part of the structure, and then making that whole big piece of real estate into something else. We're rebuilding it into a more beautiful, more luxurious mall in certain areas all across the country. So, let's talk about that as a mall. It's going to stay as a mall. Okay. Shopping center or shopping center. The reason I asked, we have one in Austin that it's called the old Highland Mall. And it was a big mall 30 years ago and it kind of deteriorated to where there's like three shops left and it became part of a ACC, a community college. And then they tore down about half the mall and then use that big parking lot space and everything it has and they built like uh uh town homes and like a little uh you know outdoor area there. That's why I was asking if it's going to stay as a mall or become redeveloped. Yeah. Reinvesting in reinvest reinvesting in luxurious experiences and shopping areas all around the country, which is like weird, right? Because you see these go say I live in Long Beach, California. All of our old malls and shopping centers are being destroyed and turned into housing, right? Because of the housing crisis, right? So, it's just very interesting. There's a lot of industries that there's a lot of brands within our portfolio that which I'll talk about later that um you thought were dying but we're actually revitalizing reinvesting in. It's actually really really cool. Um yeah people think that retail is dead but it just smells funny and then you take a look at it different angle and that's what great marketers do. That's what misfits do is they can take a look at something that everybody else sees as dying and take that niche and then just turn it around. Yeah. You look at that mall and you go, "Oo, pickle ball court and Amazon warehouse distribution center." Yeah. Not anymore. So, how did how did they when did this happen and what was their thoughts behind it? Now, we're talking about the private equity firm that just bought you out, right? Yeah. So, um I was working with them as a client or they're my client and then they're like, "Hey, we actually want you to manage our whole portfolio but exclusively." So, I was like, "Okay." Came out of nowhere about a month ago. So, uh everything's getting finalized right now. It should be done by the end of this week, but um you know, I'm I'm every client that we take on going forward is going to be part of the portfolio. So doing lots of M&A for other things that align with the verticals that are in the portfolio. And so I'll be installing operations and you know growth and revenue operations within these companies um to help them to help them grow essentially. Hey Norm, you'll love this man. I talked to a seller the other day doing 50k a month, but when I asked them what their actual profit was, they just kind of stared at me. Are you serious? That's kind of like driving blindfolded. Exactly, man. I told them you got to check out Sellerboard. This cool profit tool that's built just for Amazon sellers. It tracks everything like fees, PPC, refunds, promos, even changing cogs during using FIFO. Aha. But does it do FBM shipping cost too? Sure does. That way you can keep your quarter 4 chaos totally under control and know your numbers because not only does it do that, but automates your PPC bids, it forecasts inventory, it sends review requests, and even helps you get reimbursements from Amazon. Now, that's like having a CFO in your back pocket. You know what? It's just $15 a month, but you got to go to sellerboard.commisfits. sellerboard.com/misfits. And if you do that, they'll even throw in a free two-month trial. So, you want me to say, "Go to sellerboard.com, misfits, and get your number straight before your accountant loses it?" Exactly. All right. That is incredible. Like just uh it's the reverse. everybody thinking that everything's going back online and to take advantage of that and to market that u I'm sure you're going to have lots of success. I want to talk about something that we talked about a long time ago and that is HubSpot. So people on the go, they want to have, you know, a a CRM, something that they can depend on. And most people think HubSpot is way too expensive. Let's talk about that. I think people don't know how to evaluate software. I know, shots fired, but hear me out. I think okay evaluating software is is as important and it is is important as looking at a house right where you're going to live because that's where all your data lives. That's all your customer data lives. And so there's a lot of aspects to a CRM that HubSpot does very very well that most I would say customer platforms don't do well. Um and it's more than a CRM. It's more of a customer data platform. When you think about it that way, it's not just what you can do with your customers within the platform, it's what you can do with that data outside of your platform, too. And that's what makes it great. So, their Facebook ads integration, their Google ads integration, their YouTube ads integration, all of their automated segmentation, people are horrible at segmentation, by the way. I have never actually met a company that actually does segmentation well, um, because it takes a lot of work and people underestimate the value of it. They just think tag everything to death and find my tags and you know, but you don't realize how how laborious and how prone to error it is when you're not on top of it and if it's not automated based on rules, how your customer goes through the customer journey. The thing I love about HubSpot is that they have smart segmentation where as your customer moves through the customer journey, it it your customers, your prospects and customers fit different criteria. And so in real time, the person that was looking on your website is now a lead and is now a prospect because they you got on a call and you qualified them and now they're a customer. So unless you have those segments set up properly, unless you're moving them through those different lists, you could be marketing the same people over and over again, they've already moved on to a different place in your journey. So you're wasting budget with your ads. With HubSpot, you have not only more automated segmentation, you also have automated data going into Facebook and Google and your advertising platforms. So, you can exclude and include and show different creatives as they move to their through their journey in real time without having to use tools like Zapier and things like that um that fail all the time. They're not necessarily moving people to different parts of the journey. you're just saying yes they're this no they're that going to these different lists and it could be it's a lot harder to manage with a tool like Zapier or you're having to do manual ex CSV or you know Excel imports to get that data in there to optimize your ads. So when you have a true customer data platform that can push customer where your customer is at in any part of the journey to different tools to use just wildly more efficient, right? 40% better ad efficiency across the board every time we've done it for our clients and it's set up properly. So then too expensive. Yeah, we've talked about uh the human experience and I think you said it if I remember HO which is very similar to SEO. Uh but this would be what you just described at the end of the day really is your human experience optimization, right? It's it's just that flow, the ease of making a sale or understanding your customer a little bit better. So you can uh work or provide data to them like you were just describing. But it's just that a lot of companies, a lot of marketing companies that are trying to do something or just general business, they don't they remove that. They forget about the human experience. And um uh again when you were on the podcast we talked briefly about the human experience optimization not just SEO and I think looking at uh HubSpot that's part of this whole HO experience. Yeah. Yeah. Because it really a lot of people look at their CRM as a funnel marketing automation tool. See, when you think of funnel, right, I think of pouring oil into a cone-shaped thing and it going onto the floor, right? When I think customer journey, I think there's a place where you start and a place that you finish. And there's a lot of things that happen along the way. It's not always linear. You'll start, you'll stop. People get there quickly, people go there slow. Some parts are slow, some parts are fast. Sometimes they go off the path, sometimes they stay on it. Right? I think of a funnel more like getting on a a roller coaster and not being able to get off until the very end, right? No matter how you feel, a journey, people can leave the journey and come back to it, whatever, right? They customers more in control of their experience and that's what people want. I literally was on a digital marketer call today and telling our our people that are in our men in our mastermind about because they were talking about how their their lead magnets no longer work. I'm like, well, duh, because your stupid checklist that you made can now be a question you ask in chatbt. How do I make a marketing plan? Well, your stupid 20 point marketing plan is not that great. CHBT can give you something great, too, right? So, the customer what the customer wants is different, right? And so, how do you give the customer something that chatbt or whatever can't give them within their journey? Now, you're thinking journey focused, not funnel focused and offer focused. So how CR for those listening that CRM is customer relation management right that's what it stands for those that have never used that can you just paint the picture of you what that does so you upload your customer current c if you're migrating something you upload your current customer list and you may have some tags on buyer or whatever in there but then going forward everything's happening within the CRM so all the landing pages are built within HubSpot all the the sales are happening Maybe they're tied to Stripe or something, but it's all coming back in HubSpot. All the blog post, all the whatever. Is it all happening within there? And then you use the outside tools like Facebook and Google to put stuff out or walk me through so I have a full top level just basic grasp of how a CRM works. Or am I still using all my other stuff too? Well, in theory, you're a true CRM was going to capture the customer data before they even come into the CRM, right? Think about it. You have third party, you have third party cookies that are like dead and or dying, right? We're not they're not as reliable. Browsers are like, "No, thank you." Right? But a first party like first party cookies, your CRM, you can put a tracking pixel or tracking code on your website from a tool like HubSpot and it can actually tracking who is on your website and then once they convert, it has all that information. Like I can look at a customer profile, see all the pages that they looked at before they converted and after. Okay, which is really cool, right? So now I have a I have a full view of their journey down to the person, not just 10 people that visited this page. This person visited this page on this day at this time. And if I have their information, if they go back to that page, I can send an automation to send me an email as a salesperson because it's not just people just think marketing, CRM, this is customer journey. So it's sales, marketing, and customer service is what and finance is what HubSpot really really excels at, right? Um, finance is like a newer arm of it. But so now if someone lands on my product page, my pricing page that I already they maybe download a lead magnet or joined a webinar, I can now say, "Hey, every time someone that I know lands on this pricing page, shoot me an email." I can pick up the phone and call that person because I know they're actively looking at my at my brand. I can send them an email and say, "Hey, I saw that you were on a pricing page. What questions did you have?" Or I can just create an automation to email that person. Right? Those are things that humans aren't doing with just a, you know, active campaign type tool. Um, where they're just sending out an email because they have something to say. What can you send to a customer to improve their experience in the moment? That's what you can do with a great CRM. Well, it's like a like a independent cooking system in a way where you you instead of relying on Google or Facebook's uh pixel uh or cookie or whatever that that you actually have your own that's then following people around and actually giving you data directly that you can use to manipulate as you please, not as one of the big uh social media platforms pleases. Yeah. Okay. Just want to make sure everybody understood that. Okay. I've worked with a lot of companies who've had CRM, but it's like any app that's out there where they might know 2% of it or 3% of it and they don't do anything with it. Not like what you were describing for smaller companies, uh, different brands. What is something that's very simple to do that they that you see that could be implemented very easily to get some results? with a CRM. Yeah, we have a CRM. I think a you don't it doesn't have to be HubSpot because there's other tools that do right uh you know smart segmentation, smart list, things like that. Um I think I think before you even put your stuff in a CRM, really think about your customer journey and really look at how you want to communicate with your customer. So before they become before they even get into your list, right? Um how are we how are we tracking them? So that's going into like Google tag manager. Like so much has changed in the last few years, right? How we email, how we track. So Google Analytics 4, G4 people like please give me the old analytics back, right? Because it's more powerful but it's more complicated, right? So how do you even like I just want to see how much traffic my site's getting. I just want to see how many people are converting. Here's a hack. HubSpot has a lot of that Google universal analytics data out of the box. You could just download it for free. You could actually use HubSpot for free, right? That's why I say it's not expensive depending on what you use it for. You actually put the software, you can actually put the tracking code on your website and it give you the same um data that G4 gave you um in a way that's a little bit easier to uh use out of the box without even having to configure because you have to configure G4 properly, which is really great. Um, so for people who are really really struggling and don't understand analytics, HubSpot's a great tool for that. Um, UTMs, a lot of people don't know what uh, UTMs are for. Good marketers, experienced marketers use them for campaign level, ad add ad creative level tracking. Hubot has it baked in. So, you don't need to do that. So, if you're not that sophisticated, don't have great processes for tracking, HubSpot literally automates all of it. So, you don't have to think about it. and it's organized. You can see it in beautiful reports. So, if your team is just like big bruisers and just want to get in there and do it. So, that's a great tool for that without sophistication. You can do it with a lot of these other tools, but without some sophistication of processes, it becomes a huge mess. But then what ends up happening is you have a CRM that you hate. You're like, "Gh, this thing sucks. Can't use it. I don't know what it's there for. I just use it to email my people. That's it." And then you move into another tool. and then 6 to 8 months to a year later becomes that tool again. So I think before you even sign up for a CRM or of any sort doesn't matter if it's tell or not the one thing I would recommend people do is really understand your customer journey have that document of h how have that documented of how customers happen and that's what we do at digital marketer and scalable is really have people in our um masterminds really document that entire growth journey from the time they are aware of your brand to the time they become a customer to the time they're upsold cross sold as referrals, all that stuff. Does this work on a website or can it work like in an email for I mean just a hypothetical example. I send out two emails, two newsletters a week and I can segment based on like you said, you know, do the basic uh spreadsheet segment segment based on who clicked an AI story or who clicked a a story to uh you know, something at the New York Times and I know, okay, these people clicked it. But then taking that data and and layering it on top of each other and like, okay, I want to know how many people that click an AI story are also clicking going down these other three paths and then build a profile of them. Can I do that with a a CRM or does it have to be actually on a physical page where you're putting this pixel or this special CRM down or can I add it into the UTM tracking? Uh that I don't know how that would pick that up, but how how would something like that work? So, the way I would do it for sure, I've done this before. So, the way I would do it is back up a little bit and say, "Who are my personas? Who are people that read my newsletter and create a profile, right? Business owner, investor, uh, marketer of some sort, uh, and maybe there's a fourth, right? And I would make some assumptions based on how my content's laid out. Anyone that's looking at a marketing automation situation might be a marketer. Anyone that's looking at Wall Street Journal might be an investor of some sort. You can attribute different links or article buckets to different personas. So there's actually a persona tool on HubSpot. Build out your persona and say if someone clicks this type of section, they are that's persona, right? We're going to assume that they're that persona. And you can actually have use an automation to uh to mark that as that type. Or you can just break down your article types into a custom field and say anyone who clicks on this type of article, check mark that this that they're interested in AI. Anyone that picks this type of article, check if they're interested in investor uh fundraising or in whatever type news. And so then if you want to do something super curated, which is best practice, you say build people that are interested in investor type news. We're going to send all the people that have a checkbox for investor type stuff. All the people who have AI stuff, if I want to send something super curated. And then if you have advertisers, this is even better data, right? So you could say I have a 100,000 people on my list. Out of that 100,000, 40,000 of them really really like AI. I know this because they clicked on it and we track it. We measure it. These are people that are reading our AI has this much open rate for just our AI people. If you want to just send something AI related to our people that like AI and open this stuff on a regular basis, I'm going to charge you a premium just to send to our AI people to send out some curated content versus just sending out to the whole 100,000 people, right? So, um that's exactly what I want to do. But to do that, I would have to I think I understand now. I if I'm putting a link in my newsletter, I'm using Beehive and I'm just I'm putting I got an article and says something is hyperl and it goes out to let's just say the Wall Street Journal and Beehive puts uh UTMs on it. They put UTM parameters and I can customize that if I want but that doesn't get back to HubSpot or the CRM. So I would have to actually take that link input into HubSpot and HubSpot would generate almost like its own bit.ly link kind of thing or something and then that link replaces and then it can track everything across the board. Is that do I understand that correctly? Mhm. Okay. All right. I just make sure the audience understands that too. Okay. I think that would be really cool. That could be really really cool and what you can do with that. I believe you integrates with HubSpot. So there might be some cross domain stuff that you there might be some stuff you can do to kind of sync that up a little bit better. Oh, if they have shows from certain places where it'll actually you just put it into the UTM and they pass it somehow. Uh maybe behind the scenes. Okay. Yeah, VHub does integrate with HubSpot. It does. Mhm. Oh, I need to look into that. I just learned something, Norm. I learned something. Kevin King learned something. That could be uh very powerful uh to to do that. And we need to do that with a Misfits newsletter, too, because then we know who's clicking on SEO stuff, who's clicking on AI stuff, who's clicking on domain stuff or Tik Tok stuff or whatever. No, that's uh that's definitely something we got to look at. And even if you can't do it from like HubSpot or Behav or whatever, you can do it the oldfashioned way. Like there's ways to track it like so and so clicked on this send a signal to like a spreadsheet. Say all and you know you can add rows to a spreadsheet using automation like Zapier and say okay all these people are looking at have clicked an AI newsletter. So you could just every time someone clicks an AI article their profile gets attributed to that category and then use AI. you have a bunch of raw data, but AI is amazing because you could Yeah. simpify it. But Norm said HubSpot's expensive. You just said there's a free version, but So, what is HubSpot? Is this a multi,000 per month deal once you get up into the decent level of stuff or is it um what we what's what's a basic a decent HubSpot? I'm not talking about enterprise level, but Sure. So, the the free tool has a lot of great stuff in it. um from tracking to uh landing pages to simple forms. I think there's even basic there might even be basic one or twostep workflows. Uh really great stuff, right? I think you can even hook up your ads for free. I think you can only do like five at a time though. Um I can't remember. But the starter, they have a starter package. I think it's 25 bucks. I think you get the whole suite for all the different hubs for like 150 bucks a month. Um, and then based on Yeah, based on the number of contacts you have, that's where it gets a little pricey. Um, based on the number of contacts you have, you can pay X dollars. If you have a lot of contacts, call them. They might be able to negotiate and get you a better deal on your contacts or it might make sense to go to the pro level, which starts at $800. Now, a quick word from our sponsor, Lavanta. Hey, Kevin, tell us a little bit about it. That's right. Amazon sellers, do you want to skyrocket your sales and boost your organic rankings? Meet Lavanta, Norman and I's secret weapon for driving highquality external traffic straight to our Amazon storefronts using affiliate marketing. That's right. It's achieved through direct partnerships with leading media outlets like CNN, Wire Cutter, and Buzzfeed, just to name a few, as well as top affiliates, influencers, bloggers, and media buyers, all in Lvant's marketplace, which is home to over 5,000 different creators that you get to choose from. So, are you ready to elevate your business? Visit get.lovant.io/misfits. That's get.lav lavanta l van nta.io/misfits and book a call and you'll get up to 20% off Lavanta's gold plan today. That's get.lavont.io/misfits. However, and you get like social media management which you don't have to pay for another tool for. So, let's say I don't know what the tools cost these days, 50 to 100 bucks. You get email marketing, which you know, every tool is around the same price. Email marketing. Um, you get um marketing automation. You just get like you get tons of functionality in the pro suite, access to AI tools, AI content creation for emails, uh, landing page creation, right? So you just type a prompt and it creates land page for you, right? Lots and lots of tools. So there you would need to have a lot of supplementary tools. So when you add up all the tools that you would need for what you would do with like marketing pro, it ends up being a lot less. But the problem is that you don't get to pick and choose. You just get everything for 800. So if you don't need that many tools, it might not be economical for you. But I guess it's No, it sounds sounds really good. Um, awesome. Awesome. Thank you for that. Mhm. So, something else. You've worked with hundreds of clients and there's people that make it, there's people that don't make it. Is there anything that stands out when you're looking at these businesses, these businesses that are ready to scale? Is there like two or three things that get your attention right off the bat that they're doing right to scale? Um, yeah. I think the companies that Let's talk about the companies that don't for a second. I know I don't want to be Debbie down, but I think the clients that that haven't worked out well with working with us, you know, fault or no fault. I think customers change a lot of times. Clients don't want to, right? And so being able to look at the data and say, "Hey, we need to pivot a little bit or adjust is super important, especially as things evolve." The ever evolving landscape. I'm not an AI, I promise. Um, uh, the new people evolve. They just do. And I think people are just stuck on doing things the same way over and over and over again. And I think the companies that are willing to shift and at least try new things, cuz sometimes people are like shiny object syndrome and all they want to do is new things. That's another reason why people fail is no lack of focus. I think there's like a very very good happy medium between experimentation, evolving and knowing what works for your customers and really really owning the data uh that informs that. So that's number one, right? Number two is having a plan and sticking to it instead of random acts of marketing. The plan doesn't have to work. It just needs to be able to be measured. And I think companies that have discipline and are willing to just go the distance and test and see what works and see what doesn't uh have a lot better chances because you know then you come out of that test and say okay here's what works and I think people are so black and white with it right doesn't work it's like oh that sucks it's like but you might have been 3 ft from gold and didn't even know it so it's not always it didn't work it's like oh if we would have tweaked this one thing we would have hit the goal or we were only we were at 98 8 instead of 100. It can we still say it kind of worked like it almost got us there, right? And so people just it's just so people don't measure. People don't put a plan together. They don't actually define what success looks like before they start something. So then the goalposts constantly move because what happens is they're comparing themselves to other people and say, "Oh, this person I know has, you know, 10,000 something somethings." And it's like, well, maybe you need to get number one first to validate it and then get to five and then 20. So, problem number three is not setting realistic goals and expectations. I think companies that do that well see huge gains and they're able to systemize and they're able to scale because there's a huge difference between growth and scale. Growth, you could say one, if you go from one to two, that's growth. If you go to two to five, that's growth. However, if it costs you more to grow, that is not scaling. Scaling is the difference between if you can grow without costing you more time or money or headache, you are scaling. Period. Right? If that if that the percentage that the amount of resource it takes to to actually grow does not change, but your your growth trajectory continues to rise, then you are officially scaling. So, you're just adding more sales, adding more revenue. You are growing but it could be costing you more time, energy, headache, frustration, whatever. So I think that's the ultimate goal. Growth by any means never scalable. What role do you think AI and Agentic AI is going to play in scaling and growth for companies? Oh my goodness, it's crazy out here. Um I can I don't sleep these days. I literally build apps. Like instead of me like looking for an app to like do a thing, I just build one in two hours for what I need using AI. I just literally prompt an app using software and I'm like my client, we needed to make a org chart. I built a fully functional org chart the way I want it with like job descriptions and clickable and interactive in two hours using AI. So, like with agents and things like that, like actual agents, not like the fake ones, but like the real stuff. Like, it is scary how much we're going to be able to do if you have like legit repeatable processes. I have this manifesto. I might publish it, I might not. It's about 30 pages about AI and how to get ready for AI. Most people are just looking for AI to be a magic bullet and say like press button, go. That's not going to happen. If you have an actual process, an actual thing you do over and over again, right? Henry Ford input output, all this stuff can be agent agentized or whatever and done quickly and you will actually start to see the reward of it all. Most people are just trying to figure out like so I want AI to read my emails, but it's not doing anything. It's like a stick like do something, right? It's like AI's going to do anything with your AI's going to do anything with your emails unless you know what you want it to do, right? So, I think that's failing with it, but man, people who like legit have like an email process like, okay, anyone from this, anything that has a uh like Google already does it for you. That's the thing people don't realize. You have Google Workspaces, it already does it for you. If it if I have an airline ticket in my email, it puts it on my calendar. Doesn't ask. It just puts it on my calendar for when I fly out so it's automatically there. Like that to me is like not aic but like what a aentic is trying to do. Find rules where things are always the case. There are no variables. If you can find those things where if this happens and this happens, you'll be able to use agents to like transform everything you do. And I think the bottom layer of jobs are really really at risk right now because you can do some insane things with AI. What do you think about tying agents together with MCP and some of the new technologies that are coming out where maybe you have different tools, maybe it's the one you coded and there's different tools out there that are doing different things and you actually have them all tied together um that where by themselves they're pretty powerful doing a repetitive task, something like what you said, but when you put them together they can actually feed off of each other if you code them right. And I mean right now it's like like you said it's kind of like the fake agents. It's like make.com or nad or whatever, but that's it's it's changing rapidly. If you listen to like the CEOs of the top companies, they're they're raving about it. What's your opinion on like tying different software systems or processes or operations all together with agents and and MCP where they can talk and interact with each other and still do their their tasks. Um what do you think about that? I think we've already leaprogged that. You know, I think um if you watched the Google IO, did did any of you guys watch that the keynote? I watched I watched part of it. Yeah, I watched it three times. What I heard was we've evolved behind like the like chat functionality and we're now into reasoning. So, a lot of what just our basic Gemini whatever is doing is able to reason instead of just put out a response, which is amazing. It's starting to learn from itself. I think we are being a little bit too micromanagy and I think AI is becoming a bit of a teenager now. Like it was a bit of a like toddler. Now it's become a little bit of a teenager. It can do a lot more without us having to tell it what to do without having to build these like really crazy like agentic systems. I think it just needs our data. So going back to schema, right? Schema does more for AI than it does for search in my whole opinion. when you structure your data, structure your processes, structure your system. I think in some cases, AI can tell us what it should be doing without us having to use agents. I think we're almost there. I think we're three months away from that. But couldn't you tie like a can you tie like a bunch of tools? I don't know. I'm I'm just going back to well, a tool that does keyword research, you know, Uber suggest or something like that. And then a tool that does image optimization and create your another tool that creates your ads for Facebook, another and bring them all together. And those are automated processes once you give it the the the prompt or the fe to say, "Hey, create a picture. This is what needs accomplished and it can go do it over and over and over." But then in the middle, those are all integrated into the middle is a brain uh of like what you just said. It's like its own little LLM. And maybe it's humans that are experts in each of these things have come in there and kind of babysit this LLM and kind of guided it a little bit or taught it even or it's their teachings or whatever it may be. And so then it's almost customized and it's not the big data or it can go out when has it's the big data but it's almost customized and then then it's doing exactly what you just said. It's taking all these different data points looking at it as a brain and going oh we need to do this this and this where each one of these couldn't have thought of it on their own and then it just spits it out and says hey you Mr. Facebook go do this Mr. uh keyword thing go do this Mr. SEO schema thing or and maybe you even bring in all these tools and you you create a schema or something that's maybe they don't have a schema but you package it into a schema format so that they can all I don't know what do you think about something like that? I think yeah I think I've been watching a lot of different podcasts and things like that about it. I was watching one about coding tools for example in the current agentic climate it's like hey check for errors hey fix the error you have agent that checks for errors then you have agent that fix the errors this tool will literally just heal itself in real time you don't have to have an agent to do all those things like I was I there's I could go like I'm going to literally not sleep this weekend so I'm going to move one of our big projects into this database where it's like I can have this tool just fixing queries in real time I say, hey, any slow query, for example, in our database that's over 5 seconds, takes 5 seconds to execute, I need it to take like two or two seconds, it'll heal and just fix itself. Like I don't need multiple agents to do those things. If like there's a super Yeah. Back in the day when we were working with computers, you'd either build the computer. I remember that. You would load applications where it would be config and batch and you'd have to figure out which would make your computer go faster. Then it got to be 1995 the plug and play where you just plug it in, it would install itself. I think we're there. The plug, we're starting to get to the plugand play. You know that I've what I've been able to do on my side is I have like one agent that's working under one organization and if I bring in other agents then it that agent has everything everything that I need to have done in that agent. So it'll go back and forth between the organization and it's already under the hood. It's there. The next step, I think, is what you said, three months away, where it becomes more plug-andplay, where you don't have to be an AI engineer. You get a uh, you know, whatever it is, whatever platform you're on, and then all of a sudden, oh, I need this kind of like a chat GPT, a custom GPT, but it'll just be more advanced. And we're kind of doing it right now. And Kevin, I mean, just think about it with we've talked about you, you know, some of the strategies that, hey, we'll we'll create a think tank together. We'll bring in the eight people that uh we want to discuss and question the the person on the hot seat and you come up with this great new whatever answer you want. Like if you're looking for a title, a document, whatever it is, it's doing it. You know, that's the that's the not the scary part. That's the um in excitement of what's going on right now. I think what Amara basically said is most people dabbling in AI don't know how to use the tools. They don't know how to actually get the most out of it and actually prompt it properly. Uh and I think that's where there's massive opportunity. That's where the people at the top, you know, the CEOs of Microsoft, they get it. Um and that's where I think there's a massive opportunity. We had uh Justin on the podcast recently and he's like, "Hey, I think we have a three-year window here to actually make a lot of freaking money." Um and and then he also we were talking and he was like uh I was like, "So, what's going to happen in the future?" Like you just said, you know, people at the bottom especially are going to lose jobs. They're either going to get retrained or they're going to be sitting at home with a robot changing their diapers. Uh and and but and I was like, "Well, who's going to make money?" He's like, "Well, there'll probably be a universal income or there'll be something." And but the people that are got a crush are the entrepreneurial-minded people. The people that look at this and they they're not they don't not someone that wants to work for a company and just get a paycheck and go home. There's someone that like look look at all these opportunities by using these tools and these agents and these robots or whatever whatever comes next and you can do some amazing stuff that could have would have taken a billion dollar company before or a army of 500 people. Uh, but going back to HubSpot tools like Google Workspaces and HubSpot, HubSpot's leading I think HubSpot's doing an incredible job with AI right now. Like you open a contact record and it summarizes it right on the top the whole thread. Like this isn't something that you have to set up, right? It's literally there, right? So that's why I'm like the agent thing in my humble opinion is only there because the tools aren't caught up yet. But this business of building agents and like selling them, I don't know that it's going to be necessary as necessary because a lot of these tools are figuring out how people use these tools like figuring out the most common processes and just building it within the tool. Yeah. The tools will be agent in and of themselves. Yes. It's just like when VO3 came out, a thousand video editing software tools or whatever got wiped out basically. And and so I I agree with the agent. The individual agents here and there as a tool by itself are are just a temporary band-aid. And it's not that far away. It's not like everybody's saying a year away, two years away. We're I'm thinking months away. Months. It's happening. Literally, you don't need an agent to put a flight on your calendar. It puts the flight on my calendar when I travel. That is not an agent. That is a function of how a Google I have a Google Pixel phone, right? I see all the stuff it does for me on my day-to-day that I don't have to do just because it knows everything about me. All of my data is in here. I don't have to train it on anything. It literally has I bought two phones because I have two businesses so that I could have one trained on one version of me and the other trained on this version of me for that reason, right? because I have different things that I need. And I was sick and tired of having to context switch it all the time. I'm like, "No, I'm going to train this phone to be this version of me. I'm going to train this phone to be this version of me so that it knows what to do." It's amaz It's actually I don't need to build agents for that. It's already doing stuff. So what what how do how do as marketers as misfit marketers how do we take advantage of what what you're seeing and what you believe what's in your manifesto uh of uh what what we need to be doing paying attention to or what was Kevin just opened up a can of worms what is in your manifesto I'm in love with you Kevin I you could have never asked me a better question all right so what is in my manifesto so in Manifesto. So you know that that evolution chart where like monkey to human situation, humanoid to human, right? I look at that like that, right? You go from manual process like um the wheel for example. Why did the wheel come happen? And that's a very important question. Why did we invent the wheel? Why did we invent the wheel? Because it made it easier to carry things from point A to point B, right? we for carrying things on our back for a while and then it's like oh if I like put things on round things it makes it easier to move stuff right if I make bigger round things and so that wheel evolved right and so transportation now we have this whole category that's opened up called transportation right so now we take this wheel now it's part of this bigger thing called transportation and now it's like I have and then you have animals right pulling things on wheels and then you have locomotion and then you have cars and you have so transportation's evolved because of this very thing called the wheel. And so that's kind of how I look at AI, right? Fundamentally, why do we do the things that we do? If you just start there and go back to the basics, you can actually figure out how to use AI in your day-to-day life a lot easier instead of trying to like make this tool talk to this tool. And now you've all been part of dysfunctional teams. You could have dysfunctional AI where it's like, yeah, this agent doing that, but they're not, you can't really trust each other because sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't and you're not giving good instructions. It's not clear instructions. The data is not clear. All these things. Go back to the basics. Go back to how does one person or two people do these things. What is expected of person A and what's instructed in expected of person B? What is my input? What is my output every single time? Do I trust that on a fundamental level? If I just, you know, went to my kitchen, opened the cupboard, pulled out a glass, put the thing on the water, filled it up, and handed it to somebody, will someone be able to drink that water? Does that does that system work every single time? Now, how do I create a bot to do that every single time? It starts with a manual action. You have to trust that action because that trust has to create a result. Once you trust that result, you then be like, "All right, cool. Let's use a thing to automate it." And I think we get ahead of ourselves because the process isn't even there. So we're trying to automate this function. So I'm not really impressed with a lot of things that are out there. I'm like, we're just automating this function. And I tell my teams that all the time, like, okay, is the process for that ready? What are we trying to solve for? Where's the reports? What are what's the end result look like? Oh, I don't know. We just need to automate it. Let's get let's just get this AI voice thing because it's cool. I'm like, well, what is it going to say on the other side? Well, I don't know. Well, it's not going to know either, you know. So, I think you just have to stop advocating auto automating dysfunction and then adding AI on top of it because that's how you stop this distrust AI. And I think it's like bad. It's like body odor, right? When someone has horrible AI content on LinkedIn, I see people getting flamed for it all day, right? It's like gh you stupid AI comments, you stupid AI content. Get that away from me. But when it's great and it enhances the I'm going to say it, Norm, human experience, people are fine with it, right? So, I don't know if that answered your question. That's what that's basically what our manifest is about is like with people want more human experiences with the efficiency of automation and AI, not this, you know, dog and pony show of look what I can do with AI. It's like, yes, I would love it for you to put this this uh flight on my calendar without me having to look at it. That's amazing, right? People want to be able to trust that it's going to give the result every single time. Not 30% of the time, 100% of the time. If you can't trust the result, you don't trust the AI. And it all goes to PUI. 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Oh, it's like what you just said. Yeah, that's almost dysfunctional that it's cool, but what's the purpose of this? Like you said with the the audio, but if the purpose is that I'm a a a father of a 5-year-old and a three-year-old, and I want to create a custom bedtime story that involves grandma uh or something and I upload grandma's picture and and then it's some sort of story about grandma that puts them to sleep. That's a good and entertains them at the same time. That's a functional use of it. Uh, and so that's is that just I just made this up off the top of my head. Is that kind of what you're talking about? Yeah. And it improves someone's human experience. Yeah. Improves it. Yeah. As long as there's like some sort of human experience objective tied to it, I think we're okay. So, where do you see that? What's the next trend? Where do you see this going? I think true practitioners, like marketers that really understand the process and how we get there are going to fly. I think there's going to be I think the demand for great marketers was always very very high and the supply unfortunately on the lower side because it takes a lot of time, experience and all the things to be to do marketing really really well consistently. I'm not talking one hit wonders. I'm talking consistently. Um I think that divide is going to get even bigger because I've been hiring content marketers for example. Now why would I hire a content writer? Because I don't want to sit there and prompt Cly an article. I need someone to do that for me. But none of them want to learn content anymore. None of them understand how good content is made. So they're making crap content with AI. And so it's getting even harder to hire good writers cuz it's like, yes, I know you're going to use AI. Can you at least just make me confident that you know, like someone said it great, I need a calculator to multiply. I know the fundamentals of multiplication, but I also know enough to where if 5,823 times, you know, 700. If the last number isn't zero, I know that it's I know that that number, that output is wrong because I understand multiplication. I can just look at it and know that the result isn't correct. There's people that have never multiplied in their life. They're going to be like, "Yeah, that's right." Right? It's like, well, you know how multiplication works. Anything with a zero is going to have to have a zero. Has to, right? This is just a general rule. And so that fundamental understanding still has to be there. And I think because people are going to rely so much on AI, we're in deep trouble. People are not going to people are going to overrust it and uh not have that institutional knowledge to be able to course correct this. So there's going to be it's going to the the internet's going to become a lot messier over time. Well, that's why photographers and creative people who have been doing this for 30 years are they're not afraid of it. Uh because they're like, "Cool, now I can actually I know how to do lighting. I know how to what I f-stops are and ISOs and I know how to get exactly what I want right now and actually make it look amazing because like what you said, they have that experience and that knowledge versus the the new kid out of college is going to probably make me a picture with a duck flying across the the water and it's just it's not or whatever. It's not going to be the same thing. Uh, and I I agree with you that's that's a problem. And there's so much bad AI that's then new AI is learning from the bad AI. Uh, and it's create going to create this like garbage disposal of just crap and you're not it's like what's good and what's not. Uh, and and I don't know how we how we fix that. Uh, but that that is a problem. I I agree with you 100% on that. Institutional knowledge and actual experience. Um, you know, we're still humans helping other humans. At the end of the day, we know what humans want. AI will guess. Maybe, but you know, when you like AI can't go out and have a beer for you with someone else. Not yet. Yeah. Right. Maybe. I don't know. But like I know like there's this laughter about, you know, they're talking about the IO thing. uh you use AI to go find the thing that you're shopping for and then that AI talks to it and tells you how much it is and then the AI is buying from the other AI and I'm like that sounds horrible to me. Like that does not sound like a benefit. First of all, there's actual like like endorphins or whatever feelood stuff in your body that comes out from actually physically buying something. Like there's a there's a benefit to like you buying something that you feel as a human being. So like you're going to take that away and give it to an AI? Like okay. Like I'm sure there's some things that make sense for like replenishing socks. Might not get I I have a just to your point, just sorry to interrupt you, but to your point, I have a I have a refrigerator. Uh it's called the Ravio or Roxio or something. It was on Shark Tank and I bought it. It's like $1,700 and it's a refrigerator for your sodas and beers and wines or whatever, but it's it's horizontal instead of vertical. Most you stack vertically. It's horizontal so that you don't have Oh, shoot. the uh the Coke Zero is in the back and you got to take four bottles or reach around and grab it. You just pull out these trays. But the M but what it does is it has a camera on every single level somehow that takes an inventory without me telling it. It knows there's two Mountain Dews, three Coke Zeros, two bottles of this kind of wine, everything in there and it inventories it. It's in an app. And so that I could in theory actually hook that to to Instacart and say, "Hey, when the uh the U Coke Zeros are starting to run low or it knows that every day I'm taking two out, so it's got seven left, so it's got a three-day window." It goes and orders them from Instacart and shows up automatically without me having to do it. That's a good use of like what you just said as an automated thing. But if I want to buy a new dog bed, which I'm about or dog kennel, which I'm about to buy now, I found one. I have these metal kennels kennels and they're just kind of ugly. But there's one that I saw on a Tik Tok video that's really nice. It kind of fits in with your furniture. It's like 500 bucks and I'm going to buy it probably tonight and have it shipped to me. But I don't want the AI going and buying that. I want that's the endorphins. I mean, look, I'm getting this nice little thing. I'm going to buy it for for myself and for my new little puppy. And taking that away. I'm just using these as examples of it to illustrate what you're saying is, I think, spoton. I just want to illustrate that so it doesn't just get glossed over by people listening. Uh, and I think that's very valid. Yeah, there's there's human connection to some things. You'd be smart, Amara. You'd be you'd be pretty smart. You'd be norm norm no lie. Yep. You know, I discovered an old show I used to watch uh on Amazon. And I don't know if you guys watch this, but it's faking scary. It's called Humans. No. Oh, it's Take a look at it. It's where we're at today. It's or not today. It's where we're going. It's where you have these robots, very humanlike. They can go out and do your shopping. They can do almost well everything. Put it that way. I won't be a no spoiler alert, but if you want to see where this is years ago, where we were thinking whoever created this was bang on. It's like uh Orwell, you know, uh coming up with 1984. I mean, he had some he he hit, you know, uh maybe not a thousand%, but he got a few things right. This, I think, is going to be very close. It's scary. It's scary in a in a wild way. Just And I'll just like you see this in the first scene. they the agents and they actually call them agents by the way but all of a sudden they start to communicate amongst each other and uh it's it's very interesting to see what's happening I do want to make another point though right now we have to look at the way we're hiring things uh hiring people like if you're starting a company and you're fresh out of university and you have a business major all of a sudden And that org chart that we learned about is going to be completely different. You know, one of the main by one of the main people you got to have on your staff is somebody that can understand AI and that's going to be one of your chief uh hireers, you know, operations. Yes. Yep. But you have to have that person that has that technical uh knowledge. I think that's going to be uh one of the first big changes we see uh coming out uh coming out of uh university is changing these org charts. Oh, absolutely. I'm doing that right now. I'm like, okay, so which which person is going to I have to build nine websites in three weeks, but I two years ago that would scare the crap out of me. Yeah. Right now I'm like I could probably get that done in a week. That is scary. That is very very scary. I can probably get it done in two weeks, right? Like that is very scary for web developers, graphic that that scares me for them. So it's like I can do that. I don't want to have to do that. Who can do it at the level that I can with the tools given to them? Cuz trust me, I have I have people on my team. I'm like, "Hey, go write this article." And I'm just like, "Yesh, don't write this article." And they did it in AI and I gave them the thing and I'm like, "How did you not end up with the same result?" Like Never mind. You know, but it's it's now not only a norm, you make a valid point. It's not just the org chart, but you're training. Yeah. Right. So, it's like, are you training for fundamental knowledge? Are you training how to leverage our LLM, our knowledge bases, our institutional knowledge, right? so that a other people can learn in the organization and b so that our tools are enriched with the right information, our services, customer feedback, all the things. I just built an AI chatbot with HubSpot for one of my clients. It is fantastic. It's performing better than our a our actual human agents at answering questions. It's because we had 600 pages of documentation on our products and services, right? Wow. I can actually replace customer service agents on our live chat because it's amazing, right? So, it's it's those types of things. Are you training people to like do the work? Are you training people to train the software to do the work because you know how it works? And that's a gap right now cuz people know how to use it for themselves. They don't know how to use it for others at scale. Hey, Kevin King and Norm Ferrar here. If you've been enjoying this episode of Marketing Misfits, thanks for listening this far. Continue listening. We got some more valuable stuff coming up. Be sure to hit that subscribe button if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast player. Or if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify, make sure you subscribe to our channel because you don't want to miss a single episode of The Marketing Misfits. Have you subscribed yet, Norm? Well, this is an old guy alert. Should I subscribe to my own podcast? Yeah, but what if you forget to show up one time and it's just me on here? You're not going to know what I say. I'll I'll buy you a beard and you can sit in my chair, too. We'll just You can go back and forth with one another. Yikes. But that being said, don't forget to subscribe, share it. Oh, and if you really like this content, somewhere up there there's a banner. Click on it and you'll go to another episode of the Marketing Misfits. Make sure you don't miss a single episode because you don't want to be like Norm. Oh, there there was u Michael Gerber. He wrote u uh the E-Myth back in the day back in the 90s and the entrepreneurial roller coaster. He he describes it as uh you're passionate about your product. You try to sell your pro you're selling your product. It gets a bit beyond you. You hire somebody, but you don't train them properly, so they suck at their job. You fire them because nobody can do it like you. And it just repeats itself over and over. I think that's the same thing with technology. Like you said, the next step, training. If you're not there and you if it's garbage in, garbage out. Well, why is your company failing? Because you're not training properly. It goes back to the E-Myth and that's maybe it's you know uh the technical or the AI roller coaster now not you know it's it's something that you have to train you are so right because but here's the thing that I think the listeners need to know if you're relying on AI to replace people like most executives are these days it's really bad to train a bad employee but the great news about an employee is it's very obvious that they're doing bad things in most cases and you see it and fire them. People overrust AI. And how many records will it take for you to notice that it's doing the wrong thing because you just blindly trust that it's on autopilot and you're training it improperly or you got 10 people in there and one person or two people are training it improperly and eight people are are training it right. So now it's starting to muddy the waters. It's like h like how do we manage that? How do we like recognize what stops are we putting in place to say h nope it's too much like our margin of error is too much too high we need to readjust we need to pull it back right like what controls are we putting in place as we let AI run like rearrain itself especially when it's talking to other AI like it gets crazy and you're dealing with thousands and thousands of data points like and so that's one of the things that I do in my processes with just not even AI automation I put things in place like hey you come up with anything other than these results send me a red flag so I can keep tabs on the quality. And that's just something I do because I know what happens when the quality gets bad and runs rampant. It's imp it's so labor intensive. I'd rather fix it up front and wait for it to get bad. So again, a lot of people who are inexperienced in technology and like haven't really encountered that are in for a rude awakening on how to train when you're training AI improperly and it just fers and fers and fers. So what was once valuable becomes bad. And then now not only do you fix what's broken, you now have to maybe even start over, which is crazy. Well, look at that. We're way over. It's past the top of the hour. I think we could go like for another hour. This is cool. Uh uh um but yeah, you know, it took uh years to get Amora on the podcast on my podcast and you know, it's probably going to take us years to get her back on this podcast. Busy with a new VC and and stuff. But uh Amora, thank you so much for coming on. But before you go, I have a question for you. Yeah. At the end of every podcast, we ask our misfit, "Do they know a misfit?" I do. My friend Tracy, she's amazing. Tracy Gaziano, Graciano Media. She's a fantastic sales process, sales. She's also a HubSpot partner of mine. So, I will I will uh send her your way. All right. Fantastic. Awesome. Well, Kevin, uh that was awesome. That was uh that was great stuff. Uh Amara, I I really appreciate. totally different than what I might have thought we might talk about, but it's incredible stuff and a lot of wisdom. I think people should listen to this podcast two or three times. Um because there's you you you just were like spewing it out. Uh and and I think uh that's awesome. Appreciate that. We'll see how soon it ages, you know. I think I said, "Will that age well or didn't?" We'll see in a couple months. Yeah, we will. We will. Well, you'll see if I age well. I don't know what I'll look like in a couple months, but Amore, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. I'm gonna remove you now, but uh it was a pleasure having you on. Thank you so much. It was great to be here. Thank you. Appreciate it. I think Oh, there's the button. Whoa. There you Oh, you hit the right one. I thought you hit the wrong one. It almost jolted me. Yeah. Yeah. So, how'd you like that? I told you. Uh you know that uh Mara is is brilliant. actually uh have some ideas and my mind is like racing right now on some of what she said on on stuff. Uh some things that you and I have to talk about. Um yeah. Uh but no uh that that was that was brilliant. Uh like I I wasn't joking when I said that people need to go back and listen to this um again right from the beginning. Yeah. Right. From the beginning. Yeah. From the schema to that this one was jam-packed. And when we turn these podcasts into a newsletter, like we're planning on doing, the Marketing Misfits newsletter, uh, depending on when this podcast comes out. Maybe it's already out or maybe it's coming in the next few weeks. Uh, depending on when this podcast comes out. Um, it's going to be a great newsletter, too. Newsletter is coming out in summer, isn't it? It's summer. That's right. I don't know when this We We record these episodes. You guys listen to them every Tuesday, hopefully, or or but we record them uh in advance, so I never know what the exact date is uh when when one's coming out. But yeah, the newsletter's coming out this summer uh for Marketing Misfits. You can find out about that at marketingmisfits.co. marketingmisfits.co. You nailed it. I know I finally. It's taken me a while. And then there's there's something on the the something YouTubers or something. What's that thing? It's called YouTube and our channel is Marketing Misfits Podcast. Yeah, it's kind of long. Marketing Misfits Podcast. And that's for the longer version of these where you can go and see the edited version. Uh, awesome. You're going to love them. Uh, but we changed something up. We changed it where we're going to take nuggets and this podcast especially, we'll have to grab a lot of these nuggets, but they're 3 minutes and under. And if you don't have time to listen to the whole thing and you just want to get inspired, listen to some really cool knowledge, go over to Marketing Misfits Clips on YouTube and you'll see a bunch of different clips out there. And the channel is doing exceptionally well. And by the way, I've got some news for you. As of right now, we have a new Tik Tok channel, which we did not have before. Awesome. Tik Tok. Tik Tok. Yeah. You know what that is? That's a That's a That's a clock that goes Tik Tok and then it goes boom and explodes, right? Yeah. And dance. And dance, you know, and you do your custom dances and stuff. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Awesome. I check that out. They say it's going to grow, but uh yeah, that's uh Well, we haven't had enough Tik Tok people on the podcast recently, so it only makes sense that like it's a little kick in the butt to get our Tik Tok going. That's right. And it's up. Oh, awesome. Awesome. Cool. So, check that out, too. Uh Marketing Misfits on Tik Tok and uh or if you want to listen to the podcast, you can do that on Apple or Spotify. Just make sure you subscribe no matter where you're watching on YouTube, Tik Tok. Uh, and uh, give us a like or give us a share. Give us a little reaction. Post something in the comments that says, "You guys suck. Quit doing this. Get another job." Or, "Hey, I really like this. Uh, this is this is really cool." Or if you got any ideas, that that helps us out, too. So, feel free to to comment. And we're here every single Tuesday with another brand new episode. All right, everybody. We will see you next Tuesday. Take care. [Music]