82. From Amazon Seller to Brand Exit – Ben Leonard’s E-Commerce Success Story

82. From Amazon Seller to Brand Exit – Ben Leonard’s E-Commerce Success Story Unknown Speaker: Hey! Hey! Speaker 2: Hey! Hello to those listening. I have a good friend, my good friend Ben here joining us today on this podcast and Ben isn't a stranger when it comes to selling products on Amazon. He's not only sold products on Amazon, he's successfully exited a brand a little while back and he's still involved in the space today. Ben, thank you so much for joining us. Speaker 1: Great to be here, George. Thanks for having me. Speaker 2: Great. No, you're very welcome. I want to start right in the beginning, Ben. Where did your journey start regarding selling on Amazon? Speaker 1: Yeah, I stumbled into it. So just to give people a bit of context without going, you know, too kind of deep and boring people, but it's relevant to the story. I live in North East Scotland, just outside a city called Aberdeen, which is an oil city, moving to renewable energy now, I guess. And like most people around here, I ended up working in oil. A little bit of a different angle for me because my background is environmental conservation. So my role was to help oil companies get greener. I helped them comply with the rules and I helped the oil regulator set the rules. I generally enjoyed that, although I felt like I was a tiny cog in a big machine. And I had an idea to start a strength and conditioning equipment brand because that's what I'm into. But I didn't do anything about that idea for about four years until I got really sick with a heart condition and had to stop work for a while. And while I was recovering, I decided to give it a go, because I needed something to do. And at that point, I thought I would develop the products and hopefully sell them to gyms. I didn't know really anything about entrepreneurship or business at all. But I especially didn't know about selling online. And I didn't know that anyone could sell on Amazon. I thought when you bought from Amazon, you were buying from Amazon. And so in the course of developing the products, I found out that you could sell on Amazon. And that seemed like a pretty sensible solution to me. You know, get the products into Amazon's warehouse, they handle pick, pack and fulfillment. Speaker 2: Fantastic. Speaker 1: And so that's how I stumbled into the world of e-commerce. Speaker 2: Amazing. OK, great. And tell us kind of what your journey looked like with that brand. Speaker 1: Yeah, sure. Well, it began as a hobby. You know, I wasn't well and I hoped to develop some products that might earn me some extra pocket money so that by the time I went back to my job, I'd have this kind of side hustle. But I quickly realized that there was huge potential in this and that I was really good at it because I was approaching it from the point of view of building a brand rather than just sell stuff on Amazon. And so because of that, I was able to outcompete everyone else on Amazon in my niche in the UK and then across Europe. And so that business grew pretty quickly. After three years, we were doing about four million quid or six million US dollars per year. And I exited it at the end of 2019. It was actually Halloween 2019. No way. Speaker 2: OK. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: OK, so this is amazing. You hear so many great successes on Amazon, but rarely do you hear actual exits and successful exits. When you've kind of left that brand finish, you would, I'm sure, had a lot of time on your hands. What did you move into next? Speaker 1: Sure. For about five minutes, I flirted with the idea of going back to my old day job, which I had quit about a year and a half before and realized I can't do that because I'm no longer employable. I turned on my entrepreneurial genes. My parents weren't entrepreneurs, but my grandparents on both sides were, and it seems to have skipped a generation. So I realized I wanted to keep doing this. I wanted to do a few things. I wanted to build more brands. I wanted to use my expertise to help others. And so that's what I do now. I wear several hats. I build my own brands. I partner with other people to do that. So I do the stuff I'm good at. They do the stuff they're good at and that I'm not so good at. I help other people by consulting. Sometimes that's normal people like me who own a business. And sometimes that's, you know, large investor backed brand portfolios. And I help others to plan and execute their exits with e-commerce brokers. And more recently, together with my business partner Sean, we started a growth marketing agency called Peregrine Commerce. And we're not an Amazon agency. That's a business which, you know, takes my philosophy, really, which I learned and started to kind of perfect with the first brand and now with my other brands too, which is that you need to escape the Amazon goldfish bowl and act like a real brand. And it helps We help Amazon brands do all the stuff they should be doing outside of Amazon, but they don't because they're busy or they're overwhelmed or they don't know where to start. Speaker 2: Okay, so you mentioned this earlier in your brand and you said it gave you the competitive edge, the fact that you came into it as a like trying to build a brand as opposed to just selling on Amazon, and you mentioned it again now. So for those who sell on Amazon, let's just take an example. They sell on Amazon, again, as many good sales as they can through a certain number of keywords. They kind of hit the limit on that element. What would you say then is the next level up? What should they be doing, even if they're not at that level, to generate interest outside of Amazon? Speaker 1: Sure. Well, I think the first thing I would say is it doesn't have to be complicated. And I like to, if you've, if you're just starting a new brand, you should start the business slash brand with this philosophy in mind always from the start, which is that you are a real brand and give yourself permission to act like a real brand. You don't have to wait until you're generating tons of sales on Amazon before you do this. In fact, it's more difficult to do that. If you are already doing pretty well on Amazon, but you have no brand equity, you simply exist as a bunch of listings on Amazon. That's okay, but it's time to start acting like your own favorite brands do. And so what do they do? Well, they show up everywhere that their audience is. So they have a great-looking website. They're producing quality content on social media, on YouTube. They are collecting email addresses. They're sending quality emails to those people to provide them with helpful, compelling, engaging, useful information that makes the audience know, like, and trust them and consider that they are an authority in that niche, whether that's Today, I'm going to talk about gardening or gymnastics, whatever, so that people come to always think of that brand when they think of the problems that they are trying to solve, and they'll come back to you. So, for instance, I mentioned gardening there. Suppose you've got a set of products on Amazon that solves problems for gardeners. What if the next time that gardener needs to solve a problem, instead of just going and searching for a random gardening widget on Amazon, the first thing they think of is, oh yeah, that brand. And then they either search for your brand name and their problem on Amazon, or they'll go to your website, or they'll have a look on YouTube or Instagram to see if you've got any videos about this problem. And if you do that, then you're going to be beating all your competitors who are stuck in what I call this Amazon goldfish ball. And it's doing all of those things that starts to produce all this top of funnel brand awareness and make people trust your brand so that they'll buy from you and then even better than buying from you, below the funnel, they'll become loyal fans of you who will just keep coming back and back and back and spreading the word. Speaker 2: Okay, so let's take that example you just mentioned about a gardener, right? You sell gardening products. Where would you start to go to this audience to find them and get your products in front of them? Speaker 1: Yeah, sure. Absolutely. Well, let's actually go even more niche, right? Rather than gardening, let's talk about, and this is an example because I actually kind of like this, right? Bonsai trees. I got into this a couple of years ago. I managed to kill several bonsai trees, but still, I try, right? So, And the first thing I will be doing is, hopefully, if you have a bonsai brand, you are actually into this. I always encourage people to build brands around things they're actually into. And if you're not, try and bring someone into your organization who is into that, or at least go and do a ton of work to get inside the head of your customer avatar. So the first thing to do is build a customer avatar and understand who they are and who they aspire to be. And then you can make your brand reflect them and make them see themselves or who they aspire to be within your brand. So, you know, I'm a beginner bonsai tree enthusiast and I aspire to be a really competent bonsai tree enthusiast. I want to see myself in your brand and see that you're going to guide me on that journey from beginner to expert. So you can begin to create useful content for me. But the key is to put that content where I am. There's no point in putting content for me on a platform which I'm not present on. So you've got to go do the work to research where your audience is and the chances are they're in multiple places. They're probably where your customer is. And the chances are that they are showing up on multiple platforms. They're probably on Instagram. They're probably on TikTok. They're probably going to be consuming information from podcasts they enjoy. So let's say that you do have a bonsai tree brand. You would go and search for these topics on those platforms and find out what's already there and start creating your own content that positions your brand as an authority in that niche there. And that's going to start to build trust. The other thing that you can do is leverage your existing audience. So suppose you are already generating sales on a platform like Amazon because, you know, you're doing the basics right. You've got a good listing. You've got your PPC dialed in. There's enough eyeballs on Amazon that are going to buy your stuff anyway, but you're not really doing anything beyond that. But what if you gave those customers who've just bought from you on Amazon a compelling reason to go contact you? Speaker 2: So you've got. Speaker 1: Something printed in your packaging, in an insert perhaps, that says, hey, we have this fantastic, useful video that shows you how to make sure your bonsai tree survives winter. Go get it over here. And then they go get it. Well, guess what? The algorithm for whatever platform you've sent them to is going to reward that traffic, just like Amazon rewards external traffic, and start to show your content to more people just like them. Which then brings in new leads who now consume content from your brand and are eventually going to buy from you. So you're using Amazon sales to bring customers in to rank your content on socials or whatever platform, could be YouTube, to then bring in new leads. And I've done this myself. So the first brand I mentioned, the strength and conditioning brand, BeastGear. I would drive my customers to YouTube videos to show them how to use the product. That would rank the video that would then bring in new leads who didn't have my product but were searching for that information, who would see the video and then go buy from me. And so you've got this like infinite flywheel. You've got Amazon ranking videos and videos ranking Amazon or, you know, whatever platform you might choose. And all your competitors aren't doing it because they're just stuck in this Amazon goldfish bowl praying for sales. Speaker 2: So that's interesting. So you mentioned a number of platforms. How do you then distinguish which is the right platform to go and get started with outside of Amazon? Speaker 1: Sure. Well, the first thing I would say is to avoid completely burning yourself out and being overwhelmed is probably start with one, maybe two at the same time that makes sense for your audience. And it could be that you're going to have to just say, well, they both look good, but I'll pick one. Right. For instance, you might be choosing between Instagram and TikTok, right? But provided what you're doing isn't too messy, you know, you could choose more than one. So, for instance, you might put long-form useful how-to videos on YouTube and short-form videos on Instagram, for instance, which is exactly what I often do with my browse. But eventually, you're going to have this whole network where your brand is showing up all the time. So you're driving people, for instance, to your website to give them a lead magnet that's useful to them. Then you get their email address. Then you send them weekly helpful information. So you're showing up in their inbox every week, provided the content is actually useful, of course, and you're top of mind. But you're also, whenever they're doom-scrolling Instagram and TikTok, you're there because they're engaging with your content. You know, they might be listening to their favorite Bonsai podcast, because I guarantee everyone listening to this listens to podcasts related to their favorite hobbies and interests. So why can't you either sponsor one with your brand or even, hey, make your own one, right? And by the way, I've done my homework with this Bonsai example. There are actual Bonsai brands making their own podcasts out there and putting the content onto YouTube and Instagram, etc. And guess what? They're not doing a very good job of it. So if someone wants to go start a Bonsai brand, they actually could crush it with this. And eventually, you're going to have this network effect where you're just showing up everywhere, you're constantly top of mind, and those customers are either going to go buy from you on your website or on your TikTok shop, or they're going to come to Amazon, where you're going to outrank your competitors. And what's really cool It's oftentimes in marketing, we talk about this cliche almost that goes back to the film Field of Dreams, the baseball film, where we say you can't just say if you build it, they will come. You can't just slap a Shopify site up or slap a few listings on Amazon and expect customers to come. And that's true. But with social media, you actually can. You can build it and they will come. If you provide helpful, you know, useful content on whatever topic, say bonsai trees, on Instagram, And people who are interested, Instagram will know what it is and they're very smart. They will show it to the target audience without you having to lift a finger and provided that content is actually useful. Your audience will engage and the algorithm will show it to more and more and more and more people. And I don't, that doesn't mean you're going to get hundreds of thousands of views, but provided you're getting, you know, hundreds, a few thousands of views consistently, multiple times a week, your brand showing up makes a difference. And the compounding interest effect of that six months, nine months, 12 months down the line versus not doing it is remarkable. And I see this all the time with brands that just exist as a bunch of listings on Amazon, effectively just a It's effectively just ads, right? It's basically like Craigslist versus brands that are doing all of this stuff to act like a real brand and the difference is compelling. Speaker 2: Interesting. Okay, great. Thank you. Now, this is all really useful insights. So, Ben, with everything that's going on now within this ecosystem with kind of margins being sacked left, right and centre, also with just how many new AI tools are being What would you say is a few things e-commerce brands can do now to ensure that they are able to not only thrive in the next few years, but survive at least? Speaker 1: First of all, it's about adopting the right mindset. You know, I think a lot of people are still stuck in this mindset of e-commerce and particular Amazon being this get rich quick scheme, make a quick buck thing. And if that's what you're looking for, then stop and walk away and do something else. It's about playing the long game and building your business into a valuable asset that you can one day sell perhaps, or at least it's going to be a valuable asset that has decent cash flow that you can generate a decent income from. But you're going to have to be patient. And part of that means playing the long game. And to do that, you need to think in terms of partnerships. And the most important partnership in your business is your manufacturing partners. So you need to talk to them, preferably go and visit them, but at least get on video calls with them and make the compelling case to them as to why they should work with you to absorb some of these tariffs, for instance, help you with price, help you with payment terms. And look for other opportunities to get payment terms. A lot of people don't bother asking their freight forwarders for payment terms, for instance. Talk to every single vendor, agency, whoever you're working with and ask them to help you on price so that you can build a long-term partnership with them whereby everybody wins. That is really important and a lot of people just don't do that. They just say, Guess I'm going out of business, you know, without actually sucking it up and thinking. Just take some time, put the kettle on, don't panic and think. Go through all your products, identify those that really aren't, you know, pulling their weight and potentially kill them. Go through your credit card bills. What are you still paying for that you don't need? Right? It literally comes down to that. One of my favorite cash flow hacks is don't pay. So you owe somebody money? Forget to pay for a week. And when they chase you, say, oh, I'm so sorry. It's coming out. And then don't pay for another week. You know, all of these nitty gritty tactical things make a difference in the long term in terms of the survival of your business. Speaker 2: Okay. And what big opportunities are you seeing right now that people should be taking advantage of? Speaker 1: Multiple. If you're in the US and you're not in Europe, get into Europe. Huge opportunity, especially if you're manufacturing in China, in terms of the fact that the tariffs simply aren't there. Putting in the work to make Omnichannel work. You know, a lot of businesses exist purely on Amazon because it's easy or relatively easy. Well, time to, you know, not be lazy and actually make Omnichannel work. You know, start selling on your own site, get onto other marketplaces. There are dozens of marketplaces in Europe that could work. CDiscount, Ball, Allegro. I'm seeing that. And TikTok, undoubtedly. Enormous. That is not going away. I do not think it's going to be banned in the US. Even if it is, it's not banned in the UK and Europe, for instance. And of course, there are other international Amazon marketplaces that are opening up. South Africa, for instance, is there now. Japan. Speaker 2: Great. Is there anything you think we should have discussed during this podcast that we haven't yet? Speaker 1: Oh, man. I mean, there's just so many opportunities and things we could talk about. You mentioned briefly AI. I'm not a technical AI wizard, but I am a competent AI user. And everybody should be a competent AI user, especially if you are the owner of a business. So first things first, make sure that if you own an e-commerce business, you have the mindset that you are the CEO. Even if that seems weird, if you're like a one-person operation with a few freelancers, you are the CEO. Speaker 2: Adopt that mindset. Speaker 1: And then rather than seeing AI as like a tool that's going to do your job for you, you should see it as your thought partner. I got that concept from a book called The AI Leader, I think it's called, by a guy called Jeff Woods. Pretty good book. Essentially, you can boil it down to the concept that use AI to be your thought partner. Get it to critique your thinking. And get it to play devil's advocate with your assumptions. And that will help you to make better decisions. From everything. From, you know, logistics to design. Whatever it might be. Speaker 2: Can you give an example of how you've used it recently to kind of help? Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. I used AI this morning to help me think strategically about how to position a business which I'm selling through my brokerage, which The target buyer for that business might not realize that it's actually not subject to the Trump tariffs, or at least not all of the Trump tariffs, because the products contain metal components, which means It's not subject to the full whack of Trump tariffs. And I was just getting AI to kind of help me think strategically about how to get that message out there. I used it the other day to help me write a contract. You know, I use it. I use AI all the time. And a lot of people, naysayers, are like, oh, that's cheating. It's not cheating. Like, it's just smart to use very clever. It's like saying that delivering a presentation with PowerPoint is cheating, and you should, like, use a flip chart and write with a pen. Speaker 2: It's nonsense. Speaker 1: AI is an extremely useful tool, and it's our responsibility to make sure that we are up to speed with it. Speaker 2: Good, that's great. Okay, brilliant. So Ben, if people wanted to reach out to you and understand how they can do a bit more with their brand outside of just Amazon, what would be the best way to reach you? Speaker 1: Sure. Head to PeregrinCommerce.com. So Peregrin as in the bird, the world's fastest animal, actually. I'm a bit of an animal nerd. Head to PeregrinCommerce.com. You can actually get a free copy of my book there. Or just email me, ben at benleonard.pro, P-R-O. Or get me on LinkedIn. Just search Ben Leonard, L-E-O-N-A-R-D. I'm really approachable, happy to help. If I can't help, I'll point you to whoever can. And yeah, would love to support people, whether that's escaping the Amazon Goldfish Bowl and all the stuff that we've discussed, or planning their exit, or even, you know, just have a chat. I'm here. Speaker 2: Magic. Okay, well, Ben, thank you so much for your time today. And thank you so much, everyone, for tuning in.