#473 - The Secret Formula Behind High-Converting Listings with Karyn Thomas

Welcome to episode 473 of the AMM podcast. This week, my guest is Karen Thomas. We're going to be talking about listing optimization. Right now, in the middle of the holiday season is hopefully your listing is optimized because it's one of the most important things you can do. All this cool AI stuff, but the foundational stuff still matters. And she's got a framework that she's going to share with you called filter that I think is uh really good. Enjoy this episode with Karen. She's been in the game for a long time, so she knows what she's talking about. Welcome to the AM PM podcast. Welcome to the AM PM podcast, where we explore opportunities in e-commerce. We dream big and we discover what's working right now. Plus, plus this is the podcast for Money Never Sleeps, working around the clock in the A.M. and the PM. Are you ready for today's episode? I said, said, are you you ready? Ready? Let's do this. Let's do this. Here's your host, Kevin King. Kevin King, Miss Karen Thomas, welcome to the AMM podcast. Good to see you again. It's been a while. It's been so long, Kevin. Seriously, I feel like I'm like at my pinnacle of success being on your podcast. So, thank you so much for having me. Such an honor. You're welcome. Well, you you've been doing this for a while and then you then you you came and worked with Helium 10 for a little while, then you went out on your own, then I think you disappeared or I didn't see you at least. Maybe you didn't disappear, but and then you came back. And so, how's everything been? What how's life been treating you? Oh, it's been so so good, Kevin. So, the reason I disappeared is I actually sold my agency three years ago. So, I took a little mini retirement, was learning, growing in all areas of my life. So yeah, I'm back and I think better than ever. So yeah, it feels good. Awesome. So for those that don't know, what what's your story? What's your uh you know, every good uh every good uh video starts with a story, right? So what's what what's your story? How how did you get into this whole e-commerce thing? Oh my gosh, Kevin, it's quite the story. So you know, ever since I was little, I always wanted to be an entrepreneur. Didn't know how to do it, per se, but kind of did the traditional route. I went to college, got a business degree, and I graduated in 2008. So, unfortunately, it wasn't the best time. Basically, offers that I had for jobs were like, "Oh, sorry. We can't hire you anymore cuz there's a hiring freeze." So, it was kind of just like an interesting time. And I I ended up getting a marketing job for a clothing business. And it was reasonable, but it wasn't anything like, you know, I went to college, got this awesome degree, and I'm like, I just felt like I was built for more. And anyways, then I got married pretty young and had kids immediately and basically had to find a way to work from home. I really wanted to be present with my kids but still kind of have this aspirational dream of having my own business someday. So my husband at the time was also very entrepreneurial and he was trying a bunch of different online type businesses like affiliate marketing and dropshipping and you know basically we had a little bit of success with those but nothing crazy and I was doing like my own customer service business and I tried a couple different MLMs and same thing like we just never had like great success but we were really like determined like there's got to be something like people are obviously making this work. And so, uh, my husband at the time came across this awesome course called Amazing Selling Machine. And that's kind of how we got introduced to the Amazon world very early on. It was a fun time, Kevin. It was kind of like the wild west back then. It was do a lot more without having so much red tape. So, that was nice. And yeah, it was crazy, Kevin. Like I said, we had tried so many different businesses, but to see like it take off with Amazon was just wild. Like it was crazy, crazy, crazy the amount of growth we started seeing and it was just so fun cuz it was like I'm able to use my skills. My ex-husband was able to use his skills and we were just like off to the races. So what were you selling? So our first product was actually a dermar roller. I don't know if you've heard of those. Yeah. So even back then it was pretty competitive. It was kind of like a hot new product, but I was just like, you know, that's something I would like to use. So I could really identify with, you know, the customer and speak to them that way. So yeah, even with it being super competitive, we were we were usually like the number one in that category. So we did really really well. And had a good run with that. And then we did several other different brands as well. We had like a baby brand where we had like car seat covers and we had a really random product that actually was really good. It was like a nipple shield case for breastfeeding. Like such a random everything a young mom would need. Exactly. Like but random stuff like I never even when I was a young mom I didn't ever think I needed that but yeah there was a demand for it. So yeah we had some some cool businesses for sure in that space. And then you know for me my superpower was basically optimizing a listing. So we started seeing some crazy conversions. Like I said we had a really good ranking for our products and our conversion rates were crazy. And so I feel like, okay, I think I've got something down here. And we were basically at a mastermind that ASM was hosting and the owner Matt Clark was saying, you know, we are looking for people to have like mini courses that you know what every superpower is and teach kind of a a mini course on that. And so for me, I thought this was a great opportunity because I like I said, I really understood conversions. And so I created a course on their platform and that did really well while they were doing that. It was usually in like the top three courses watched. And kind of from there it sprang into an unexpected business that I wasn't planning on doing, but um basically people started reaching out and were like, "Hey, you're obviously really good at this. Can you write my sales copy for me and do the keyword research?" And then it kind of grew into you also do my images and my infographics. And then A+ content became a thing. And then video became a big thing. So yeah, basically by the end of it, I had a pretty good size agency providing all of the brand assets for Amazon sellers and it was really fun. So I grew that for a while and then um back at the time Manny Coats reached out for the opportunity at Helium 10 to be a um what's it called? A brand not ambassador but evangelist maybe. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it's a cool word. So I did that for a couple years almost and then got back into doing my agency and then shortly thereafter I got opportunity to sell it and so yeah I did that I had like a three-year non-compete. So here I am back doing my agency. So it's quite like I said it's quite a long story. I like I like the name I because it's got king in it. It's got conversion king. I like the name. I like that's like I'm like when I saw that I was like that's my girl. All right. Seriously, how did you get such a cool name? Like that's I was born I don't know. I was born with it. I was so it's it's uh it's it's a good good to be the king. What's that old movie line from uh one of those old like 70s movies? Uh Montipy Python I think in the Holy Grail. He's like it's good to be the king. I think you were destined for greatness right? Well, I don't know about that, but some kings get their head chopped off, you know. So, so it depends. It depends. On listing optimization, that's an interesting field to be in to come back in because it's totally different than it was when you were selling baby toys and uh and uh health products for to roll with and stuff. Um, but back then, we didn't have the data. We didn't have the information or the tools that we have now. And now with AI, people are just banging out stuff like crazy and asking AI what are the different angles and they So how does that affect what how your approach is this second time around to to do this and and uh because a lot of people were like I ain't paying I don't know what you charge but I'm not paying X amount when I can just go to Nano Banana and do this like on my own. So, uh, we'll talk about the difference between humans and robots doing things in a minute, but what what how has that affected your approach or has it? Yeah, I think my approach is more to work with AI. I think it is a powerful tool. It's still, like you probably understand, it's not perfect. I don't think it's ever going to be as good as like human intelligence. And, you know, you still have to ask the right questions. You still have to know what you're doing from a driver's seat. It's like anybody can have, you know, a really cool Ferrari, but if you don't know how to drive it, it's not going to, you know, drive as good as someone that does. So, I think for me is definitely using it as a tool and helping people use it properly. So, I'm actually offering people like their own custom chat GBT to basically write bullet points how I would do it with the right questions and the right prompts and the right structures so that you know yeah they can use AI for themselves but use it the right way. Yeah. I I compare it to like flying an airplane. you go up on a plane, you know that that most people don't realize you're on a 3-hour flight from from Austin to Vegas or whatever, and the plane is flying itself. It's like a Tesla self-driving car or Whimo for like 99% of that time, but there's still a pilot there uh for the takeoff and the landing. And you still need a pilot for the takeoff and the landing when you're building a listing uh and someone to selforrect when things go go ary. So, the human's not out of the loop. And I think a lot of people are getting a a confidence that they can do things that they really don't know anything about. You you have a degree in marketing. You've been doing marketing. You understand psychology. And a lot of people don't know how to apply that to a listing or they they know how to use Helium 10 or one of the other tools to actually get a list of keywords, but they don't know how to do that psychology and that especially when it comes to video and images. And I think that's yeah, they might create pretty images, but pretty images don't necessarily sell. Uh, and so I think that's where a lot of people are getting confused in their head on some of this. Um, but so when someone comes to you for this, what what are the key foundational things that you see that a lot of people are missing when it comes to selling on Amazon? Oh, that's such an excellent when they come to you and they're like, "Hey, can you help me out?" And you start looking into them, doing the onboarding or whatever, and you're like, "Holy cow, here we go again. Another one of these." Um, what what what is what's missing for what what are they missing the gap on? You know what's crazy, Kevin, is I feel like, you know, as much as I've been talking about this, and I think mo most people know this and it gets talked about a lot, but I just think that human connection and the emotional selling is still lacking. I think most people can have pretty decent looking listings, but they lack that connection. I actually have a framework. Do you mind if I share it? It's filter, right? Yes. Karen, you came prepared. I'm impressed. Yeah. So, it's an acronym and basically it's kind of like my checklist going through how I approach a listing. So, you know, when I first started, I had kind of what it was like a Y by filter. And it was basically Simon Synenick's um really popular podcast. He talked about starting with the why. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, this applies just as much to selling on Amazon." Because most people they'll, you know, start with like the boring stuff, what your product is and list all the features and and you know, it's it's not leading with the emotion with the why like Simon Sanic said. So I always was very passionate about that like really getting into the psychology of who your target demographic is and why this product is going to make them a better version of themselves. So then it kind of grew into this filter acronym, my framework. And so the F stands for frictionless. And you know, people don't have big attention spans as you know. And so when they're looking at your listing before they even click and then after they click, is there anything on that listing that's going to make them bounce really fast? So, for example, is it really clear, you know, the sizing? Is it clear the ingredients? Is it clear the dimensions of your products? These types of things that people really want to quickly make sure like I'm in the right space. And if those things aren't clear, that's causing friction and they're going to bounce so fast and find something else that may be better for what they're looking for. So that's really important to think about. And then I is identity. And this ties into the why is really knowing your target demographic. And like I said, the first product I did, it was a product that I would use as a customer. So it was really easy for me to talk about because I know myself so well. I know my emotional triggers about why I want to buy things. And so really diving deep into who your ideal customer is is so important cuz I'm sure Kevin you would agree like if you're on a listing that is targeted to someone like me you're going to be like this isn't for me. I'm in the wrong place. It's almost like stepping into a woman's bathroom like you you want to make sure your listing really appeals to your target demographic and it speaks to them. And you know people can buy their ideal target demographic. other people outside of that can still buy your product, but you want to really focus on your core message. Like for example, um, Manscape, right? Like women can use that product, but how much better is it when a woman's business is more focused on women and that's focused on men and that specific target demographic, right? And so that's so so essential to know the identity of your target demographic and to really speak to that in all of your language in your images and and they'll feel like, "Oh my gosh, this this brand really understands me. Oh my gosh, this is so funny. It's so cool." It's like I use I use the analogy on that of a baseball bat. If you go into a sporting goods store and there's 50 baseball bats hanging up on the wall Yeah. uh and you're trying to pick the one you hand and you happen to be left-handed and all and there's one baseball bat out of those 50s that says 50 that says this is for left-handed hitters. Uh even if it's the exact same bat as one that's down on somewhere else, but they just packaged it positioned as for left hand, you're going to buy that one. Thousand% folks for me that must be the one that's for left even though maybe identical. So that that's yeah that's something along the lines of what that your eye that I always tell people but continue. I love that. Thank you for that. Such a good example and so on point. Okay. So moving into the L which stands for lifestyle. So this is really kind of giving the aspirational result of what your target demographic wants to have. you're showing the lifestyle and you know like people we follow on Instagram or Tik Tok or Facebook like for example people in this space look to you as like the aspirational like oh my gosh I'll have made it when I'm like Kevin King right so you're showing that aspirational end result that you want to have and so make sure you're showing that with the type of models the type of locations that it's relatable but it's also they want to become a better version of theself by buying that product so it showing kind of that end result throughout the listing. And then T stands for trust. So again, this is so important to build credibility, not only just with reviews, but again, having the content that they want to see. So again, it goes ties into the friction list and the F of having, you know, the sizing guides. Having a really high quality listing is going to build trust. It's going to build value. like this is a premium brand that I I know I can trust with my money. So really in all aspects build that trust. You can you know talk about you know we have over 10,000 happy customers if you do you if you've been featured in certain locations like ABC or I don't know just different things like that that are going to build credibility and trust are another powerful lever that you can use to optimize your listing. And then the E stands for emotion. And again, like I said before, people buy with emotion. Even the most what you'd think are boring products, those still can be sold with emotion and then justified with logic. So again, building that credibility and that emotion in your sales copy. Make it funny if this is a funny product. Make it um romantic if it's a romantic product. You want people to feel something when they look at your images, when they read your sales copy, when they look at your A+ content, when they watch your video. If you've done that, if they feel something when they look at your product listing, then you've won because people really buy with emotion. So that's essential. Another good word. And then lastly, R stands for results. So what is the end result people want to get from buying your product? Like I said, people aren't buying your product. they're buying a better version of themselves in your product. So, this is really powerful that you can do with before and after images. You can do it with comparison charts, you can do it with telling the story um through a video, basically showing that they're going to get the result they're looking for and helping them get that result. So, really clear instructions, answering their questions, already thinking methodically of what's going to be an objection that's going to hold them back and answering that really quickly throughout your listing, not only just in your FAQ section and like an A+ content banner, but also just throughout your sales copy and even in your infographics in your main image stack. So, yeah, there you go. That was kind of a long answer. No, that's that's that's great. You spoke a story there at the end. Have you ever heard of the the uh simple objects study? I don't think so. No, tell me. You you can Google it, but simple simp I think it's called it's simple objects. It should come up, but the gist of the study is it was done 15 20 years ago. They went uh these guys went out and they bought like I may have the numbers a little bit off here, but like $38 worth of crap at garage sales. Yeah. Yeah. So, they bought just junk at garage sales and then they came back and they gave each of these pieces of crap to uh to copywriters and they had the copyriters write a story about each piece and then they they put they re they listed these things up on eBay and they generated something like off of $38 worth of stuff because they put a story with it like $3,800. Are you serious? Just by putting a story with each item. And so yeah, it's a very interesting study to go and and take a look at and it shows you the power of a good story and and there there's uh on the other podcast that do marketing misfits, I've had we've had someone on talking about the six-cond story where on a video or on a newsletter or on anything you've got some people call it the hook, but it's I guess an expanded hook where you get you need to capture them in that six seconds and and If you can condise the story or condise condense the story or into that six seconds and then expand on it, you can be very effective that because that that draws people in. I've done that in my newsletter. I haven't done as much lately, but when I first starting to help get it going, I was writing a lot of person more personal stories in the newsletter and I you know, one of them would be like uh yes, you know, the sixsecond story would yesterday my my beloved dog passed away. And then I and that that catches people and they're like, "Oh, what is it?" And it catches the emotion and they then they read it and then they keep reading the rest of the newsletter. Or I had a I had a uh one of my subject lines in the very beginning was naked girl on balcony. The subject line and that and what happened people were like what the hell naked girl on balcony. They open up it's like yesterday I opened the window and there's a naked girl on the balcony. Uh and so you know that's that's that sixsecond story. It kind of tells you but what do you mean? What? Tell me more. Yeah. Then it was I told the story of I live in a high-rise in Austin and went out to let my dog use do its business on the balcony because I have a little grass pad there and I look over and there's a naked girl across the building next to me just hanging out 50 ft away on on the balcony. And so and I tie that back to business. Um but th those kind of things work. So how do you do that? Some people will argue, well nobody reads the copy on Amazon. They'll say, you know, they read the title maybe and they might skim it. Yeah, but they're looking at the title, the price, and the images, and they only read the copy if it's technical. They need to know a technical thing or they need So, you could put all this effort into DLP copyrightiting and all this kind of stuff, but what is your thoughts on how many people are actually reading that or how many aren't or maybe you have data that shows look the copy changes it enough people are reading it or it changes it. What's what's your thought on that? No, I totally agree with you. I think people do skim it. Um, yeah, I think if it's very compelling and it's like a very memorable brand, I think people are more willing to read it if it's like you said, if there's a good hook. So, a good way to do that is just having like a good skimable kind of like a headline to each bullet point that's in all caps. It's like three to five sentence or three to five words, excuse me, in all caps. They can just like quickly skim it. And if it is more of like a juicy bullet point, I think people are more willing to be like, "Oh my gosh, like this is crazy." So yeah, I think on the spectrum, it's not as essential as other parts of your listing, but I think you can still make it juicy. And if it's good enough, I think people will take some time to skim over and read it. But I think Amazon actually is discouraging the use of those capital. That was an old uh trick like from the amazing days. I think they're actually discouraging that nowadays. I don't think they're suspending listings, but I think they're actually discouraging it. But my my position on that is use it until you get a slap on the hand and then get a slap on the hand, just change it and your listing will be back up in 15 minutes. Um, just like with images, if you do something um usually can get back up really really fast. But I think I think people uh um my friend Perry Belchure actually once said people don't buy products on Amazon, they buy photos. And so so what a lot of people will look at the photos and they may not get through the whole image stack. So the order the order of those photos and the sequencing makes a difference. And now with with AI and with Cosmo reading those and passing that data to Rufus and the AI what's in that image is even more critical. And the example I always give is if I'm selling umbrellas and I'm trying to capture people to buy my umbrella to go to the beach to, you know, plop in the sand uh next to me to get keep from burning and all my pictures are with an umbrella and someone walking in the rain, I'm not going to rank nearly as high even though I might have the keywords beach umbrella in my listing. Yeah. Because Amazon's now analyzing the listing uh the sorry the images and they're analyzing the video. And now Amazon is also using outside data like articles from Vogue uh to actually rank beauty products uh and what what kind So it's a it's a whole new game. So how are you adapting to that? Yeah. No, I'm totally with you. I absolutely agree. It's so essential to know your customer really well. So reading if it's already a listing that is active, reading all of your reviews, reading all your competitors reviews and really seeing what the pain points are. And then if you can address that and speak to that clearly and tell that story in your images, that's massive because I I absolutely agree. I do actually look at images quickly when I'm buying as a consumer. And if I'm confused or if I'm like I don't know, for example, there was a girl I talked to recently and she had a really cool product and you know, she kind of had this pitch like it's a great bag for new moms when they're busy. They can just have everything ready and go out the door cuz you know that it's overwhelming to have to pack up and bring your kids and bring a thousand bags. So, she's telling this awesome story and then on her listing, you know, it was a young hot looks like a single girl who's never had kids before. So, I'm like, there's a disconnect, right? You're not speaking to your target demographic. You're not showing that story. And like you said, the images, everything to make someone feel like they're in the right place. So, yeah, I think that's really essential. And then well I think even now with like A+ they're not actually reading or allowing you to put uh alt text anymore like they used to that you had 50 words or 50 characters or whatever it is. Yeah. They just recently I think took that that away. So it's be it's they're they're trusting the machines more and more and more and the pos even the positioning in a photo. Uh you can use Amazon recognition uh re K O G and so on Nition to actually see what Amazon thinks is is in your photo and Amazon recognition and there's also another tool called image check that uh the guys from product opinion have. Both of these are free, but I've done it where I've positioned I had a some I'm an old man, so I need some little reading glasses uh to read a menu or something. And these reading glasses go on the back of your phone. They have a little case and they they just slip on the back of your phone. They're little small dead reading glasses. So, I pulled those out just slightly from the back of the phone so you could kind of see them. Put it on a table, took a picture, and sent it into recognition. Said, "What is tell me what this is?" and said that this looks like a mobile phone with some keys, a keychain or some keys attached. I was like, "No, those aren't keys." And so I went back and reshot the photo and took the little glasses and moved them a little bit more out and then it recognized them as some sort of glasses. Wow. So just the positioning of something in an image now can make make a huge difference with with some of the AI stuff. And so that's what a lot of people I don't think understand um right now is is with Cosmo and Rufus, you you have to have a solid foundational listing with the keywords and all that stuff and and the well-written copy, but then on top of that now you have to layer on Cosmo and Rufus. And if you look at Cosmo, Wana's uh one of the best people in the space for that, but there's she studied the science paper. If you go by the science paper says there's 15 different things that Amazon wants answered in a listing, you know, what's it used for? What's its used function and what's who's it used by? It's it's all these are in the science paper. And she says that if you're not she has a GPT that actually will check your listing for that. Yeah. And if it's not if it's missing, it makes a suggestion what you need to add so that all those are covered. So there's those little details that a lot of people are missing now when it comes to to building building listings and it's hard to stay on top of what you should be doing. Built your listing a year ago or two years ago doing good, but you're going to slowly start eroding if you don't start playing this new game where you got to do the old way and the new way layered on top. But then how do you do it when when you're creating listings? You know, there's there's five stages of awareness. Um and so uh I think the stages are like uh unaware. So they they don't know you exist, your product exists. Yeah. The second stage is problem problem aare. They they they know there's a problem and they're trying to find something uh that will do it. Then there's solution aware where people are like I know the solution. I'm just trying to decide which one is the best. Uh and then there's product aware where they're aware of your product and there's most aware. How do you change a listing or the videos or images depending on the state that people are in to buy? And how do you figure out, like you said, you reading the reviews and stuff, what state are most of your buyers in? Um, and and they may be evolving through different states. So, how how do you address that in the video and the images and the listings that you create? That's such a great question. And to be honest, I haven't really thought of those five stages. So, I'm learning a lot from you in this, Kevin. That's really smart. But yeah, I would say I kind of go about it with thinking that most people are aware of the solution, so they're kind of already farther down. If they're typing in keywords, they usually are. They're like, I I need to find something to to smash these onions or or whatever, whatever it is. And so, you want to answer that, but and so that that's that's where most of the sales on Amazon are coming. But now with AI, people are going to to uh chat GBT and typing in what's the I need to smash a bunch of onion on onions without crying. What's the what are some options or what's and you want it to recommend your product. And so to an AI to for to recommend your product, it needs to be somewhere in the listing to to get into one of these other stages that says, hey, this is the solution. if it's not positioned exactly right in there, you won't get get mentioned and then you're going to get bypassed. But the people still going to Amazon going onion smasher no cry, you know, something's going to come up. But it's it's more challenging now than you know, it used to be like when we started. Yeah. Is just throw something up, go to the beach, and listen to your phone. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Yeah. And you turn it off and then you at the same time you're building a moat because you're one of the first ones. you're getting reviews and you just it just goes as Amazon became you know they doubled their sales in about a fiveyear period so you just grow with them and your sales double too but the whole world now has changed and like a lot of Amazon people need to get on Tik Tok shop because competing on Amazon for P and the PPC is difficult and then even for intentbased stuff like we'll get to talk about the videos in a minute but we just had I just had someone on the billion dollar seller summit couple um the last one back in uh in August and he showed how to do your your videos uh especially in your your sponsored video ads differently. He his example was a towel. He said, "Hey, if you're selling a towel and you want to create a your listing, what are they using that towel for? Maybe the towel is to dry off your dog after they took after you give them a bath. Maybe the towel is to wipe your car after you washed it. Maybe the towel is to clean up a mess on the floor. Maybe the towel is for for some other use." So what he did is he's like showed how to use AI and it's like you create your m your no your main video ad. It's 30 seconds, 60 seconds, whatever it is, but the first six seconds are completely different based on the keywords that you're going after, the audience you're going after. For the first six seconds is showing a someone with drying off the their dog with a towel and then the rest of the the video is all the same across the board. But every one of those is different. you can do some of that cool stuff now with AI especially that's really powerful and and then going to Tik Tok shop and putting stuff there and to get this awareness you know in these stages so it it's it's becoming a much more complicated game for these sellers than it used to be and you got to know a lot about marketing and psychology to to pull this to do it right. you could get lucky and just put something up and maybe hit hit hit a home run, but it's becoming less and less likely and it's a more sophisticated, mature game. So, that's what I So, what are you doing when it comes to video? One of your things that you do is you help people create is that the advertising videos or is that the listing video or what what are you doing on the video side? Yeah, so both. Basically, I do um one for the usually it's like a minute video on the actual listing and then it's usually a 40 to 45 second video for their sponsored ads. And yeah, I agree with you. I think those first six seconds are essential. And honestly, I haven't done that where I switch it out for those different keywords. And that's so so smart to do that, especially and I've never done that side where I do people's ads. And so I haven't, you know, been as integrated in the ad side of it, but I do think that's so smart when you're targeting those specific keywords, towel for dog or towel for the beach and you're showing that really fast in six seconds. It's brilliant. But yeah, as far as my methodology with video, it very much follows that filter framework. So it it mirrors um basically the whole listing. I kind of have it mirror each other so it's very cohesive. So kind of the same um what am I looking for? The same order that the bullet points are in. I kind of have the same image stack. So basically the first bull is you know what's the big USP of this product? What makes it stand out from everything else? And then I'm really focusing that on the second image in the image stack right after the hero image. And then you know I'm going to justify with logic. So then what what makes it so cool? what is, you know, that special feature and then, you know, an infographic about that in the third image and so and so on, back and forth. So, the bullet points in the image stack matches each other and then same thing with the video kind of building emotion just fine with logic. So, it's kind of this heartbeat back and forth throughout. And that way, people feel like they're getting their answers, but they're also really being able to buy with an emotional decision because it's speaking to that emotion. Do you try to cover multiple uses or multiple things in the same listing or the same video or do you split them up? So, yeah, back to this towel example. Um, you could have three different listings. Yeah. And so, it's the same product, but you're just a slightly different packaging and slightly different titles, but each one of these is aimed at a different specific use. Are you doing anything like that? I mean, it's like the old example is like Eedran, etc. Migraine, etc. extra strength and etc are basically all the same thing. Yeah. So, do you do you do any recommend anything like that as well for listings? So, splitting them up into uses. No, I haven't I haven't worked with customers who do that, but I think that's so smart. Just changing the packaging is brilliant. But yeah, usually people just have, you know, their main product and I do try to show like the different use cases. It could be used for this, it could be used for that. so that you know we're giving more value to people because a lot of times people don't always think of ways that they could use it or dress it up or you know there's some hidden benefits of it. So I'm really trying to like be comprehensive in the listing but I think it's really smart what you're saying and I think that is such a great strategy. Yeah, we did it during co we were selling wipes, you know, like uh alcohol wipes to clean your hands. So, we would do wipes uh for for you know these regular human wipes or whatever we called them. And then we would do gym wipes and it's exact same product. It's just this is to clean all your your barbells and everything in the gym from germs. Yeah. And then we we do another one that were car wipes. This is to clean off your your car. Exact same product just every one of those is it's positioned different and the whole listing is built around that. And that works that works really really well. Um, so that's something that I don't see very many people in this space doing. Um, yeah, I agree. They're like, I got one listing. I'm trying to cover all my bases. Yeah. One listing. And I think that can be a mistake, especially maybe not so much 10 years ago because people still find you and you could just keyword stuff it. Y, but now with what you said, getting the emotion, getting the emotion for getting your dog dry is different than getting the emotion for getting my car dry. Yes. And so if you're if you're targeting the wrong emotion in a listing, you you may be converting really well for those people, but you're alienating everybody else. Um, so that's that's a fine line that I think a lot of people need to start paying closer attention to and and maybe even splitting off your product into v uh it could be variations but exact same thing slightly different packaging so Amazon can't say anything with a different UPC and but each one's targeted to a different use if that apply it doesn't apply to all products but if if that applies to your product and then who knows you might even end up owning more real estate on certain keywords on the more generic keywords. You might have three of the top 20 listings or something for the different uses your of your product. So that that's that's something that a lot of people I think need to need to do. So when Wow. And then there's there's another thing like it's you you mentioned your your filter thing has six letters in it, but I just spoke to someone the other day. is huge in AI and they're in this this u consortium of like huge companies and they said if they have five intentbased data points about you so they know that Karen loves to go for a run uh they know she she identity not intent based sorry I meant to say identity based she's a runner she loves Gucci purchase purses she loves um her identity is whatever kind of car you drive. And you know, three, five total. If you have a six, that's even more powerful. All you need is five and you know everything about that person. Oh my gosh. You can put it into AI and with some of this big data and these tools and you can create an avatar that's just ridiculous. Wow. And that's basically what was happening the early stages of that's what happened back when pres when Trump ran the first time. And you remember there's a big to-do or Cambridge Analytics and this company had all this data that was like trying to influence him getting elected and they did because they had all this data and that was early early on before AI was sophistic sophisticated like it is now but now with tools it's crazy what you can do now how you can hone in and so that's where I think though knowing those things plus using the tools is where someone like yourself can really set up set yourself apart Because yeah, you know, if you're charging 1,000 bucks or 1,500 bucks or whatever it is to do this whole listing and video stuff, people are going, why I need to pay you that? I can do this 20 different versions of this and for $10 with V3. And you're like, well, the reason is this, this, and this. Do you really know how to use V3? Um, do you really know how to do this? Do you really know how to tell the psychological? Yeah, but it's working. I'm making some sales. Yeah, let's test it. Let's Okay, come to me. That's what I'd be doing if I was you. I'd be like, "All right, you don't want to pay my expensive package. Um, let's do a let's do a $299 test or whatever. Something that you can do cheaply and not lose money on and say, "Okay, let's let's run a Amazon uh experiments on Amazon. Not a PFU test, but an Amazon experience and with my video and your video, my my second p image and your second image, see which one works. If mine wins, you agree to come and work for me and do my package. Wow, I love that. Something like that. Cuz I think in the whole agency listing side, there's going to be a wall come up now with people willing to pay what they used to pay. Yeah, I with all the AI tools. And so you have you have to show them why that and you understand all this underlying psychology, underlying hook things that the AI doesn't always get. it can get it if you know how to prompt it, but most people don't know how to prompt it. So that that's I think that's a crucial a crucial thing when it comes to listing. So with with A+ content, what's a mistake you see a lot of people make in there? Repeating the same images that they used in their listing or not, what are some mistakes that you see a lot of sellers make and then what are your recommendations on how to get the most out of A+? Such a good question and seriously Kevin thanks for all this good this great great ideas that you're giving me. I'm seriously like just blown away. I'm like wow this is like right picking your brain. This is incredible. Thank you. But yeah, as far as A+ content goes obviously you know there's just the standard A+ content and then there is the A++ or the premium A+ content. So that gives you a little bit more deluxe features where you can put in video, you can put in that alt text and for sure index for some of those keywords and then um you know you can have a specific section for FAQs again which helps with the AI pulling information and being able to answer questions more efficiently. But yeah, I think the biggest thing that people sometimes still do is putting way too much information. and they just like really want to pack out with more information and more words and you know sometimes less is more and especially with images I think if you can get the point across it's just like writing right it's like you want it to be long enough to cover the information but short enough to keep it interesting it's the same with your A+ content not stuffing it with so much information to making it look like so busy that people are like bouncing because they're like this is too much right so I think having enough text to basically explain it and to, you know, sell the benefit, the features of it, but not being just so overwhelming that it's like, whoa, I don't want to look at this cuz it's too busy. It's too much. It's it's freaky. So, yeah, I think definitely having a good balance of, you know, the artistic creative side and still, you know, justifying with the logic with some words throughout. What's your opinion on putting like comparison charts or compare comparing your product to others in the space? Personally, I wouldn't do other people's. I would if you have a line of products for your brand, I would just put different asens of your own product line. So that way people can see, you know, different products they didn't even know you offered. And then hopefully, you know, increase that average cart value because they see, oh my gosh, I didn't know they also sell, like you said, especially if it's like beach towel, dog towel, or whatever. They're like, oh my gosh, I didn't even know there's different things here that I can buy from the same brand, and I'm already here. I'm already invested. I trust them. So yeah, of course I want to buy these two products, too. So yeah, that's my preference. How about you? Yeah, and I agree with you on the A+. If you're creating one of those little charts where you throw in the asent, I would keep that to yours because that's clickable. Yep. In your image stack, I would put an image that's comparing you to the others for two reasons. One, so people can see maybe they've already bounced over and looked at the other one. They can see the differences and you can highlight those. you don't make it easy for them to click over. And if that other product is way better than you, you don't put that in your chart. Um, but and then also AI loves that. So if you if you're off of Amazon, if you have your own website or your own landing pages or Shopify, AI AI engines love comparison charts to help them make decisions. So it's a very powerful AEO or GEO, whatever you want to call it that people are calling the optimizer AI. It's a powerful thing for that. I don't know if it's still punch powerful for Cosmos AI or not, but um it it I think an image uh showing that um might be. And then I've had success in the past show, you know, you always want to show if you can the before and after. Like you said earlier, R was results or or whatever that um you want to always show that before and after um effect. And what's in it for me? Too many I see too many brands that they do this in ads. It's like we are or or they're using the words we or our or or I. Get that stuff out of all your marketing. It's all about them, about you. And what is it? What is it doing for you? That's that's a big one that I see a lot of people making mistakes on. Nobody nobody cares uh that our plastic is made of is is the best in the industry. They want to know what's it going to do. This plastic is undestructible. and your German shepherd will never be able to break through it or or whatever it is. Um um that's what they want to know and and that's where it's people I think a lot of times start fe showing features and rather than benefits what's what's the change that this product makes. Yeah. And if if you can show that you you said that's part of your filter thing. If you can show that, I think that that helps a lot. And it's hard to do. Sometimes you got to think that. But now with Chad GBT, you got an instant brain brain storing partner right there. You don't have to sit around and scribble on paper and throw away a hundred of them or talk get into a focus group. And you can do a lot of this with with those tools. I agree. Um, so what what about design stuff? I mean, h how important is design when it comes to selling on Amazon? I think it's so important, Kevin. I really do. I just think it's it's the difference between just like, you know, your average small business to a business that's positioned to look like a premium brand, right? And it's honestly like I had the arrogance at one time and I I didn't go to school to be a graphic designer or anything, but you know, I I'm fairly smart. I I'm like, I can use Canva. Let me just try some things. And I was like, "Oh my gosh." Like the difference between someone that actually knows graphic design and you know, just your average person like me is such a big difference. So, personally, I don't I don't recommend doing things yourself. Like, I I do think it's worth investing in someone who is actually really good at it because it definitely makes a difference. Just the premium quality of your your infographics and your images is is massive. Yeah. And there's a lot of things like you said that a lot of people don't know when it comes to design. Just little simple things like widows, you know, like having a a widow is a single word hanging online by itself or or facing the way that things are directed. You know, if if you always want to face inside to the page, not outside the page because then you leave them out, you know, if you have if you're positioning something. Um, depends depends on which side of the page is on it's showing up. depends on how the positioning is. Whether you show the face or not the face can make a difference. Whether someone's smiling or not smiling um makes a difference. A lot of these things you can if you if those listening if you're readers of the billiondollar sellers newsletter, billiondollarellers.com. I I cover some of this stuff in different newsletters and you can go to billiondollarcellers media and you can search for this stuff and you can find all the newsletters that that have all these tips and tricks in them for how to do do things. if anybody listening is interested in that. But there's there's a lot of little nuances that people like you know uh because you've been doing this and you're seeing the difference when you're doing it for client yourself uh and for clients. Uh and that it can make I I'll never forget I was on at Pattern you know who pattern is the number one seller on Amazon like 1.8 billion or two billion dollars. They just recently filed for an IPO, but I was at they do an event in May in Salt Lake City and I was there and I was there with some people from from uh a couple other big groups that are very smart people and we're sitting there on stage and their CEO is going up there and showing how they analyze photos for a picture. They have so many data points that they've scraped that they they brought they they brought wheeled out on the stage this huge box and it looks like one of those big photo boxes and they they put inside the box on a little table they put a uh some supplements a bottle of supplements and they put the camera on the tri stand behind them and then they just shot that they they had something that changed the background out a whole bunch. Um, you can do some of this in AI, but they said the reason they don't do it in AI is it doesn't have it didn't have now tools now with some of the new tools may do this, but at the time you couldn't get the proper shadows. You couldn't get the proper things with AI. It would it would kind of fake it and not always be right. And they would then test that and run all these these split tests with 100 different images just changing something minute in the image. He showed an image on stage like here's the before and here's the after. Can y'all anybody tell me the difference? Everybody's looking at it trying to find, you know, which one has six fingers and which one has five and Yeah. No, there's nothing obvious. He said, "Okay, here's what it is. We move this thing over here 3 millimeters and we move this little flower and made it crinkle this way." And which one do you think actually outperformed on CTR? I'm like, "Uh, I don't know." Said, "The one where we we moved the crinkle. It actually increased it. 04% or 4% the CTR." He said, "But when you're selling a million dollars worth of these, that's serious money." Yeah, it makes a huge difference. They have that data. And so at that point, that moment, I was like, "Holy cow." Nope. Other you guys are such a different level. And the other smart people that were with me said the same thing. They're so much at a different level than we are. Yeah. That's now with AI and with tools and with people like you that know this, you can get clo you can you can get close, but you're not going to be patterned. That's why they're doing $2 billion. But um you can get close. And so that's why I think a lot of people the fund with all this cool AI stuff and everything's but the fundamentals still matter. Yeah. And the fundamentals of building a solid listing that evokes all the stuff in your filter. Uh you guys should rewind this and listen to what she said again about the filter technique and apply that to your listing is all super cool. But people get caught up and like well how do I make this optimized for Rufus and they mess up the whole underlying foundation. You got to layer these things on top of each other. And that that's what's important right now is is um at least in today's may change in next year, but that's what's important right now. Um so how does the process work when someone comes to you and says, "Hey, I want you to do a image package for me." You do the lifestyle photos, you do um videos, you do the the the listing, all the keywords, uh that whole process. How long does that take and what what's that what's that look like? Yeah, thanks so much for asking that, Kevin. So, yeah, usually I jump on a call with someone to really get an idea of their product, their brand, what they're trying to accomplish, and then yeah, sometimes it's just a standard package, sometimes it's a custom package, and then I give them also a type form so we can get all the information I need. Sometimes, you know, it's specific obviously their brand guidelines and their competitors, all those things, just so I can get a robust feeling of, you know, what they're really trying to accomplish and do my research as I'm creating this. And then, yeah, usually it's about 21 days after they fill that form out that I have everything completed. And yeah, it's definitely, you know, lifestyle images, product images, artistic images with props and A+ content and infographic design, keyword research, sales copy, and then video. So, yeah, I think what you said is so key, that pattern does I think it's so easy for just it's human nature, right, to sometimes be complacent. If something's working, we just like you said, it's it may work, but it's probably slowly eroding. And then people that are willing to keep testing and evolving are probably going to slowly sneak up. And I've seen that happen to me and I've also done that to other people, right, with just it's so essential to have this optimization mindset of don't get complacent to keep testing things, switch out different images, test different um A+ content designs and using like you said that managed experiment is so important just so that we actually have the data, right? cuz I may think I know best, you may think you know best, but the sales don't lie. So really having that data and be willing to keep testing, keep growing, keep trying different things is so essential. And I'm not surprised why a pattern is as big as air because they really have that mindset. I think it is so important. So in your packet, are you shooting the the photos with a a camera and a photographer and the video with camera and photography or are you doing it an AI or a combination of the two? No. So, yeah, I still I still do it all with actual people and photographers, videographers. We have a premium graphic designer. So, yeah, I still do it. And even with like sales copy, I I have prompts, but I like I said, even as good as I am, I still I still know chat GBT is not going to get right even with all my promp prompts and stuff. So, I still have to do a lot of work and clean up to get the sales copy where it needs to be. And maybe that will change eventually, but yeah, it's I've tried it. I've tested it myself even with all my prompts and do it like this how I would write it and it's still it's still not where it needs to be. So yeah, it's still very much human centered that I get ideas like you said, great brainstorming, great information, great research, but when it comes to the final product, it's definitely all human expertise. Human touch. Yep. Is this just for Amazon or or because there's slight variations. If you're going to do like Tik Tok shop or Walmart or Shopify, do you make the modifications? Is that part of it as well or is strictly for Amazon? Yeah. And basically depending on what they need. So yeah, if they want that, I definitely can make those modifications or for a landing page or Yeah. So definitely have the capabilities to do all that. And if they want to do this, how do they how do they find out about the conversion king? Oh, I love that. So, yeah, you can go to my website, conversionkingdom.com, or you can reach me kingdom or king kingdom. Kingdom. Okay. Conversion kingdom. Okay. Okay. Yep. And then you can find me on Facebook or Instagram, Karen Mered Thomas, and have a conversation there. But yeah, thank you so much for giving me a little shout out with that. No problem. I appreciate you coming on the AM podcast. This has been fun. It's good to see you again, Kevin. It's been so fun. Honestly, like I just appreciate all of the massive wisdom and expertise you're dropping. I'm just blown away by how much you know on so many different topics. It's pretty wild. So, that's what that's what happens when you write a newsletter. You have to stay on you have to stay on top of everything. You're very on top of things. It's amazing. Yeah. And you know, I'm old. I've been doing this for a couple days, so I'm I'm uh I could be your I could be your grandfather. No, not at all. No, you're extremely I always knew you were brilliant, but I'm just like it's wild. You just keep blowing my mind. So, thank you so much for sharing this. It's helpful for me people listening. This is gold you're dropping. Thank you. Appreciate it. Well, and uh thanks again for coming on. We'll talk to you soon. Oh, my pleasure. Thank you so much. Bye. A human touch in an AI world is still a big mover when it comes to actually getting optimizing and getting the maximum click-through rate and buyin rate that you can get. AI tools are great as you can see in our discussion uh between me and Karen and can definitely help you and save you a lot of time and help you iterate and get a lot of options and brainstorm with but at the end of the day I I still believe and agree with her that a human needs to be involved in that and there are some nuances that can make a huge difference. So I hope you enjoyed this episode got something out of it and if you want more tips on how to build your listing uh you can always check out billiondollscellers.com as well. That's my free newsletter every Monday and Thursday. We'll be back again next Thursday with another edition of the AM PM podcast. And I hope everybody's Q4 is off to a great start and you're ready for a nice Black Friday and Cyber Monday coming up. We'll talk to you again next week.