#464 - Hooks, Affiliates, and UGC: TikTok Shop Tactics That Convert with Stephanie Tramicheck

Welcome to episode 464 of the AMM podcast. This week we're talking more Tik Tok shop and social commerce because that's where you need to be paying attention to right now. Got Stephanie Tremach on the show today. You know, she's been around for a while. Started three different companies. She's helped Etsy and Pinterest launch in Europe. Now she's big into the Tik Tok world. Got her own newsletter and got an agency and very well connected in that world. So, I think you're going to really enjoy this episode. There's some actionable, tactical stuff that you can do. Uh, so enjoy this episode with Stephanie. Welcome to the AM podcast. Welcome to the AM podcast where we explore opportunities in e-commerce. We dream big and we discover what's working right now. Plus, plus this is the podcast for money never sleeps. Working around the clock in the AM and the PM. Are you ready for today's episode? I said I said, "Are are you you ready? Ready? Let's do this. Let's do this." Here's your host. Here's your host, Kevin King. Kevin King. Miss Stephanie Tremach, how are you doing? It's so nice to have you here on the podcast. You don't know this, but I've been like reading some of your stuff online and like following you for a little while. So, it's a it's a it's a pleasure to actually have you here. Thank you, Kevin. It I'm more excited than you. Like, uh I've been following you like you're a kind of like mentor in my head. I love what you do with your newsletter. I know what I what you've done in the past. I love everything you do. Like, you're an inspiration. So, I'm very excited to be here and have this discussion. Oh, thank thank you very much. Um that's very kind of you. So, a lot of people, you know, there's there's certain people in in uh this industry, in the e-commerce industry, that everybody knows their name because they're at every conference, they're at everything, they do little sessions, they're speaking, but a lot of people probably like, "Who who the heck is this uh Stephanie?" Uh, and they have no idea. So, tell us a little bit about yourself and uh and what you do and how you got into this. So, as you may notice, I'm not a 20 years old, so my story is maybe a little longer. Uh, but in a nutshell, Yes. Yes. So in a nutshell, I'm a three-time founder mostly in tech. Uh I'm right now the editorin chief what I say chief talk officer of the talk to o k newsletter. Uh that is everything about Tik Tok shop for uh sellers that wants to move into Tik Tok shop and uh live shopping. Uh but my background I'm I'm an engineer from training. Uh I worked for seven years in telecommunication when the glass ceiling just like was too heavy on my head and I decided to create uh on the side a blog and it was in 2004. Uh it was the first blog in fashion and craft in France. I was in France as you can tell from my accent back then. Uh and it's most likely the first uh the worldwide number one blog at that time uh for fashion and craft. So I've been around creating like uh I've seen the whole evolution of content creation, social media, social media, let's remember it's 2007 that Facebook started. Uh so I've I've seen all this evolution and I was part also of this evolution. So uh my blog transformed into a business, a physical magazine, a paper magazine, an agency for retailers and a copycat of Etsy that I launched in France and that how I got into working with Etsy uh and launched Etsy. Uh so now very famous at the time no one knew it in Europe and I launched it in Europe. I was the first international employee for Etsy. um and first uh non US employee for Etsy and launch and we grow it to 20 million in three years um in France and and it's not I'm not done there because I repeated my first time uh non US employee with Pinterest and I launched Pinterest uh in France uh and we grew it in uh two years and a half in to one million of audience uh in France alone And then in 2016, I've been I moved to the US. So I'm in San Francisco. Uh you don't see it, but it's like I'm in a Victorian house in San Francisco. I love San Francisco. San Francisco is is back. I love to be an American now. It's been a I have the went through the green card and all the process, but now I'm I'm a proud American and citizen. Um I've been working a lot on tech. Uh I'm like, as I say, three time founder in tech. Uh but now I love to be in the social commerce space. Um I was I'm always very curious. I started uh Tik Tok when it was musically. Um so I think my first video uh was in 2016. Uh and then I've been on and off Tik Tok because let's not hide ourself. You can lose so much time uh and uh mental space being on Tik Tok. It's fun. But I in I'm very good at installing disinstalling installing and and last year uh around May June uh of 2024 I installed it back and I discovered this talk shop. I discover how all those creators were like you can make 10,000 a month. All those creators wanted to help and make money and in this affiliate program that Tik Tok shop was organizing and I saw that like not so many sellers were selling at that time but they were making a lot of money. So I decided there is something to be done and I was looking for my next venture at that moment. So I decided okay let's go into Tik Tok shop and instead of like creating my own product or doing drop shipping I actually had find an opportunity and had a contract with a big uh Korean conglomerate that wanted to launch uh on social commerce uh and so we make a deal and I started to help them selling on Tik Tok shop and so I've been learning everything Tik Tok shop by doing uh by asking myself all the question doing like I love to learn so I've been going deep into learning I'm very data driven uh and so I look at like the data that you have like all those analytics uh at Fasmos calod data you have access to a lot of information and you can looking at those data you can inform a lot of strategy and learn from the best uh and so I created supercell supercell.com me uh with a S, not like a C with the gaming company. Um, and I decided to help brands to sell on Tik Tok shop. Uh, and to nurture that business, I created a newsletter which was just like for the business uh to gain visibility and to make sure that once I connect with someone, they can follow me. And actually now like my priority is to continue to learn with this Korean brand. uh but to focus I'm focusing on the newsletter and really leaning into the education and helping brands to launch on Tik Tok shop. Yeah, Tik Tok shop has become and I'm I'm from from the Amazon world. I' been doing the Amazon stuff for like 30 years. And so Tik Tok shop I remember I remember when was musically when Gary Vee uh actually back like 2015 2016 he's like everybody you need to pay attention to this musically. It's going to be the next big thing. I'm investing in it. And then it I didn't I it just went I kind of checked it out and then I didn't hear anything else about it. And then I was at an event in like 2018 and I think it's at a golf uh one of these golf places where you do like a Top Golf or something and someone's like, "Have you seen this Tik Tok thing?" I'm like, "Tik Tok what?" Yeah. No, I don't. There's a clock on the wall over there. I was like, "No, no, you got to pull it up on your phone." And so I I I looked at it and I was like, "That's pretty cool." But I didn't really get into it. And then around the the when the COVID hit is when I started actually paying more attention. And then when Tik Tok shop is when really a lot of people started paying attention and just like you said Tik Tok uh that algorithm is ridiculously good. U I I I've always told people like if you want to if you're going on a date with somebody you don't need to look at do any research on them online or look at their Facebook just say can I borrow your phone for a couple minutes and just go to their Tik Tok scroll and see what comes up. you're going to know everything you need to know about that person, what they're into. Um, but it it I get I I use it, you know, every night when I go to sleep. Um, I need like an hour to wind down because I work late uh into the night and so I I I need like an hour to wind down. Sometimes I'm watching, you know, America's Got Talent on TV or some some something just mindless kind of entertainment. Other times I sit there for an hour and scroll Tik Tok until I get tired enough to fall asleep and I end up buying some stuff from time to time because very well tuned in um to what I want. And now as you know I cover it like you know in in my newsletter and a lot of sellers I hear mixed things where people go to it and they're like oh man I'm crushing it. We I just on another podcast I do called Marketing Misfits with Norm. We just had a girl doing 21 million a year um selling jeans on Tik Tok and zero presence on Amazon. And then I know another someone here at Helium 10 that was doing like six million on Tik Tok and it it raised all over Amazon sales. And so and then you hear other people like no I can't get anybody to promote anything for me and just this just just doesn't work. And I think a lot of people don't understand what Tik Tok actually is and they treat it like they would treat selling on Amazon or selling on Walmart or selling on Etsy or someone and you can't. In my opinion, there's three core things that every e-commerce seller should concentrate on and that's so uh AI. You need to be up on AI as a tool, not as just to write your emails and uh you know analyze uh the keywords or something but as a proper integrated tool. Social commerce and marketplaces. Those are the three big things that I think everybody should pay attention to. And why social commerce is because it's it's top of funnel right now. And the funnel is getting mixed where is it really top of funnel and you slide them down or is it top of funnel and middle of funnel at the same time. Uh and that's kind of what Tik Tok has has in a way has become. Um and it's a great discovery platform. And so what do you see when you're talking to some people with your with your company or newsletter subscribers for your newsletter that when they're coming from a say an Amazon or e-commerce world, what are some things that they just don't understand about how Tik Tok and Tik Tok shop works that they just you got to get into their thick skull like no quit thinking that way, think this way? Yes. uh I think when you come from the world of um Amazon everything is PPC everything is uh search and PPC when you come to the world of social commerce everything is about the creators and it's about volumes volume of video and commerce video which is a very specific format that we are talking about and so it's about the number of affiliates and and down the line how many videos commerce video that is talking about your product that you manage to produce. So it's not about controlling what you can, it's about influencing and the tactics are very very different. Yeah, I I agree. And I think a lot of people come and they just try to sell sell sell uh and and I I find that some of the best what for me personally when I'm watching a Tik Tok someone that just comes on and actually tries you know there there's a there's a format with the hook and the you know the whole process and there's a psychology to it and that's that's where a lot of people that want to be creators I don't think they understand the psychology of actually selling and but I know that there's there's a Tik Tok example I like to give is there's a girl Abby something. I forget her last name. She's in New York and I think she does she's an influencer for a lot of like beauty brands in Korean brand Korean brand. Um and she just recently got a little dog uh and she shows the whole story about her dog, but all her stuff is subtle. It's not like putting on some lipstick and like, "Oh, this is the greatest lipstick and it doesn't smear and I can kiss my husband and and still stays or whatever." It it it's not about that. It's like she will show playing with the dog and her story of the dog to capture you and bring you in like a and then she might be like, "Oh, I got to go do my makeup. I got to go do and she's in there and it's a quick three, five second thing." Uh, and and like clip after clip after clip of her just putting her foundation on, putting on her blush, putting this and then she's like, "Oh." And then the third one's like, "Oh, this is my favorite lipstick. Uh, such and such brand. U, it's my favorite." And that's it. But that's enough of a plug in product placement that then people like it feels authentic. It doesn't feel like they're selling her, but they're like, "Well, she uses it and she looks good." So, I think that what do you think of people that are taking that approach uh versus the sell sell is that is that the better way in your experience to do it or I think so. First it depend of the category. Uh it depends of the product and the category and um I will say there are diff you need to have a mix of type of creators. Um I think at the core you still want to have commerce video. You want to have that call to action of the why uh why to buy and it could it's really linked to the fact that uh you need to have to to really make volume uh you need to have niche rel relatability. I will relate less to a 20 years old explaining me why the lipstick is better, but I will relate to a I will not say my age person lady talking about the lipstick and um and maybe for you it you will relate because it will be Mother's Day or it will be uh another um St. Valentine and there will be a video special specially for you. Um and so there is a re relatability but at the same time selling so at the at the act of conversion but some creators also and like there is a moment where we will be fed up of all those commerce video and it needs to be about building a community for the brand and having um a way to talk about the brand in itself. What are the values of the brand having influencers and UGC creators that are not affiliates. So there is maybe not the link on the video uh that is directly direct directly linking the the video to the shop but they are expressing what are the values of the brand. What is a community? what is the ideal user uh consumer of that product and what you describe about this Abby is like part of the the narrative that the brand needs to build on the an influence on Tik Tok and it can be done by the brand but most likely is done by also influencers which are different from affiliates well so that's yeah we'll talk about that so like in the case of this Abby where she puts the lipstick on it's 3 or 5 seconds she's not doing a call to action like, "Oh, you can get it on this shop or links below." She's just showing it. But that's that creates an awareness and then maybe another if maybe she's part of a campaign that this Korean company's doing. Then another creator comes on because you just watch that video for four minutes with her and her dog and they know you like her and you like So then most likely at some point pretty soon after that um Tik Tok or maybe the next day, depends on they're going to show you another video for that same product when this one's actually selling. And then you're looking at it going, "Oh, wait a second. That's the one that Abby used. Oh, that's the one that Abby used. Holy cow, I need to get that." That and I think a lot of people that are coming in from like the Amazon world don't think in that way. They think it's just the cell. Like what you said, you need a whole variety like a portfolio of things and it has to be at that avatar. And I think that's a mindset shift for a lot of people that aren't experienced in advertising or or psychology or whatever you want to call it. uh that they they make massive mistakes. Yeah, it's really more about the user and the consumer how he will use the product, why he will choose his brand uh more than uh the product in itself somehow. It's the trust. You trust that person. Yes, you trust that person. And in the case of AB and it was smart for the brand to work with her uh because you tap into her community. Uh so but it's like the playbook that you have kind of like in Instagram uh working with influencers tapping into their community their own image uh the what they what their positioning and the message they have how it is supporting your own brand. So it's kind of like they have a personal brand all those creators influencers have a personal brand and you are associating your own brand to them um and their community. [Music] Thinking about selling a Tik Tok shop? Or maybe you are already in it and you're ready to scale. Unlock all of Helium 10's brand new Tik Tok shop tools with our diamond plan. Everything from bulk Amazon to Tik Tok listing conversions to instant Amazon MCF fulfillment. Best of all, you use the code TT10 to get 10% off Diamond for 6 months, even if you've used a coupon before. So, go ahead and upgrade and let Helium 10 do all the heavy lifting for you so you can focus on what really matters. For more info on our new Tik Tok shop offerings, visit h10.me/tik. I'll see you there. What's the difference between an influencer, a creator, and an affiliate in the social commerce world? I would say influencer, UGC creator uh and an affiliate. Uh so in the world of Tik Tok which will be a different uh in the world of Instagram in the world of Tik Tok and Tik Tok shop uh an influencer is someone that has some influence. It could be nano micro uh big influencer. You have different size uh sizes of uh influencers but they are tapping into their own community. They most likely have a personal brand and you want your product uh and your brand to be associated with them. uh and it's more like um really about branding that lead to sales and then you complement that with ads. So as you say you've seen the video then the ad algorithm will promote the product to you. Um UC creators is more I pay you not to tap into your community. I mean, you do it also. It depends of the creator, but because you will do more a specific video and I want you to really create that video for me and I'm paying 200, 500, 5,000 uh for one video. Um, that is more we build that video somehow together. Um, there is no no affiliation link. It could be an official coupon on a coupon on um on um on Instagram. Uh but on on on Tik Tok usually there is no no link to the product and then there are the affiliates Tik Tok. So we call them they have two names. They have Tik Tok shop creators which is something very specific or affiliates and they are like a traditional in a sense of traditional old school affiliates. they earn money uh they earn a sales commission on every sale that they manage to create through their video and the video that they do is uh a ve very specific video it's called a shoppable video a commerce video and so it's this video where I say hey look like this is perfect for mother's mother's day the packaging is like so nice it's perfect it's staying it doesn't stay on my uh fingers or on my glasses and whatever uh and then there is on the video there is this uh link to the shop directly. So if as a consumer I like what you say I click and I arrive directly on Tik Tok shop. Uh the beauty is like what you you were alluding to before is like you are in this mode of like relaxing uh winding down uh after your day and you are entertaining entertained and then suddenly you see this nice video like this lipstick and like you feel so relatable. You love the stories. This is really talking to you. You just click in seven seconds, you check out because you I already like Tik Tok already has your credit card, your address, and then you're back to entertaining. So, it's impulse buying like at its heart and it's almost buying for fun. Um, and so it's it's it works like the machine is like heavy like you some people spend so much on Tik Tok shop. Uh and so they are affiliates and every time what I love with the beauty for sellers, the beauty of the model uh made by Tik Tok shop is that affiliates are really only making money if they sell. So they have this motivation to make it work. It's different from an influencer or UGC creator that okay the video doesn't work. I've done my video. Uh I will not say they are all like this but it happens. Um and so everything is also on Tik Tok shock trackable. I as a brand I know exactly which video which creator is bringing me what GMV. You have the conversion rate. You know what the volume of video like of views they will have. Everything is trackable. And so it gives you so much data about who is buying and why that it helps you to create a very good feedback loop and a fast feedback loop with all your creators with all your affiliates that you can give them, oh this creator has been so imaginative or creating something new. This is a new angle. This is a new hook we've identified. You can copy copy that and do your own thing around that. but that it will increase the conversion rate. And so the the the model of the affiliates on Tik Tok, Tik Tok shop is very like u it's it's fun. It boost discoverability. It boots sales because of this 7second loop of mixing commerce and entertainment. But for the brands, I can track everything and I can iterate very fast. That's also very new. Yeah. There's a company called Pattern. I don't know if you're familiar with them. They're in Salt Lake City. They're $1.8 billion dollars in um sales, the largest seller on Amazon, and they're in like 65 marketplaces. I was just uh back in May. I was at their convention. Their CEO was up on stage showing what they do on TikTok where exactly kind of what you're saying. They they've written some custom software and some custom AIs that will go and look at competitive products or find every single influencer, analyze, pull out the the hooks, pull out the links, pull out the angles, pull out all the positioning statements, throw that into this big AI and like figure out, okay, this is what we need to do. And then they go to then they go and they they get their they have an army of affiliates and they also will reach out to people, but they'll say, this is what we need to do. we need this type of hook and and and they they mirror or modify it slightly and basically do that and they know that it's going to this is going to perform within this range of conversion if done properly u and they're crushing it on that because that data is there so he uh Tik Tok gives you a lot of this data like the GMV and and all that but then there's tools what do they what do they layer on top and I know Helium 10 has some tools now as well uh is that just more the outreach kind of thing or is that also some additional data that Tik Tok is not voluntarily given that they're parsing or what kind of stuff do you get by layering on some of these outside tools versus just the the Tik Tok um creator center and the back end of Tik Tok for sellers? That's a vast uh answer uh vast uh question. Uh I would say from uh the top down top down you can see which which categories are overcrowded, which one are working fast. Uh you can see then on the category with the outside outside tools. Yes. Like in your example if it's overcrowded like I I know someone that looks for they like look what are the keywords that or the subject matter and they'll go and they'll say oh there's only 107 videos in the last month about this subject matter but this other one that you're thinking about positioning as there's 6,200 videos you that's a much harder to compete. So go after the one that's 107. Is that kind of what you mean uh by that? Yes. and and Tik Tok is also Tik Tok shop on the seller center has some like what they call product opportunities where you can identify what people are searching uh in your product category or in new categories. So you can know exactly what from the search perspective what are they looking for into products. You can look at the shop level. Uh and at the shop level, if you're interested in a competitor, you can really understand how many creator they are like affiliates they are working with. How many videos they've made in the last like three weeks uh months. Uh what are the video the top one video? Who is the top who are the performer? Who are all the affiliates they are working with? Uh what are the top performing videos? and you can start to you can download the scripts uh of those videos. Um you can really inform down to the playbook of how to do it what the competition is doing. Uh, and so it's it's for me like when you want to start on Tik Tok shops, start by having an account on analytic platform and start to look at your competitors or product in your category like what have they done and you can change the dates and look back like okay now they have like a full catalog but when they launch most of the time they only had one product and that's that the best practice is only launch with one product. Um but like what what affiliates why like how they evolve into the narrative, how the hooks have evolved like what are the angles as you were saying what the the patterns guy are doing like you you can like I will say learn so much and then you start by copying. Um there is a caveat to that. It look like super simple when we say that. Uh the problem now and it was not true maybe 6 months ago is like now the affiliate program is the anger game. It means it's super difficult when you are a brand starting on Tik Tok shop to get and sign affiliates. Yeah, that cold that cold start is really hard. Is very hard. And so that's why like one like I would say five like out of five shops maybe there is one that will make it and very often is because they either they believe is like Amazon they don't do the work of creating content by themsel finding creators at the beginning finding like creating that visibility on the platform uh and then finding those few creators you can manage to work with to create a I would say a a playbook for other affiliates. So you have to show affiliates that with your product they can make money and only contacting them saying hey I have a sales commission of like I bumped it to 30%. uh which by the way maybe you cannot do it as a brand um I bumped it to 30% is not enough like they have like their inbox is full now Tik Tok shop made one mistake they open up their API uh and their they have like you know a store and app store on t for the sellers uh and they open up all their API to maybe too many tools that are AI I affiliate platforms where you can send 5,000 1,000 of message personalized message with AI to affiliate every day and so you have the response rates to those email is 0.01%. Mhm. So it's like you cannot contact. So now you have to start with UGC. have to start with with your own account, your own team maybe that is creating the content, do what you say like having the story, the brand uh but at the same time you need to show to affiliate that they can make money. It needs to be visible on the platform because they will not listen to your own message. Inbound doesn't work. You want to to be visible from them. Uh and then you need to have that hook, that playbook of that creative um I would say brief uh that you can share with other uh creators and until you have found what are the works, how what type of video works for me, what is a conversion rate is difficult to scale. But the goal is to scale with affiliates. That so I know affiliates look at your GMV as a brand and the brands look at the GMV and the conversion rates like you said of the affiliates and if if I'm a brand new affiliate that's zero. If I'm a brand new brand that's zero. I know there's tools like Celico that will actually kind of like uh seed that where they will get some people to go buy your product or get some affiliate and it kind of like at least gets you going to make it look like you've made some sales even though they're in in the Amazon world we called it search find by. So, you used to rank Amazon products uh where you would if you wanted to rank a new supplement uh to the first page on Amazon, you would actually use a company, pay that company like 15 or $20 service fee per unit, then they had an army of people that would go and buy the unit with their own credit card, have it shipped to their address, and then leave a review or or it would just show up as a sale. They would tell them which keyword to search under so it would juice the algorithm and then they would pay them back for the, you know, if it's a $30 supplement, it was costing them $50 in cash out of hand, out of pocket. They get some of that back in their Amazon profits, but it it it's expensive. And that and that's what kind of Celico and there's a couple other tools that kind of do that until Tik Tok says no more of this. But that's that's makes it difficult. But I like you said though, maybe you just got to create some UGC and the other affiliates will see it and because and oh that's a cool product. I would like to promote that one or I would like to do that. That looks cool. Uh and maybe that's the game that you got to play instead of messaging a thousand people and maybe getting one of them to respond. That's not the one you want. Um that that's and then you do like goalie did, you know, this last they've done it twice now. They did it last fall and they did it again this this last summer. uh where they do these huge contests and they get attention uh because they're giving away a million bucks and and they're willing to give high commissions like you just said that you know maybe the affiliates they want to make the most they can if you're offering them a 10% commission them the good ones are probably going no I can get 20 or 30% from somebody else I'm not going to do that versus if you offer them and this 30% or 50% may be all of your profit uh but if it depends depends on your goal and that may be okay because you're getting it going and maybe you only do that for the first month and then you you dial it back after that after it gets going and then you get the halo effect on Amazon where you're getting another 50 to 70% and that's where you're making your profit with zero advertising spend or something over there and I think a lot of people just don't look at the big picture of it all and they don't understand they're trying to be profitable. It's just like if I want to go in the the shelf and be on the end aisle of with my cereal at the local grocery store right on the end, I got to pay a premium for that. You know, I'm paying slotting fees and I'm paying premium fees. And that's where a lot of people I think don't understand. This is it's a long play. It's not a Everybody just wants to go viral like, oh, they hear these stories about going viral and everybody just wants to go viral. And would be nice if he does because it's that easy. And on the GMV too, just speaking of that, you might look be looking at a creator and you're like, "Oh, wow. They've done uh in Tik Tok shop, it shows they've done $72,000 in GMV." Well, you got to go look at their listing because what if that was just one video and all their other videos never done anything? They just had one happen to go viral. You got to take those kinds of things into consideration, too, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's uh very different from Amazon in the sense that everything is at scale on Tik Tok shop. You need to work with a thousand or 10 thousand of affiliates. You need to influence them at scale. You need to be able to look at the data and the performance of the video at scale because it's like um thousands, hundreds of thousands of video that you need to to look at. Hopefully now we have AI and then we have more tools, but everything is not yet in place and and most importantly you you need to learn and everything is evolving so fast. So it's uh you you need to find your playbook. you need to understand what is your road map in your own with your own strengths because for example if you're a creator founder um it's much easier for you if you're willing to be on camera because if creator like I've noticed like all the brands that are creator le I call them uh have like go like this like cold start is faster uh quicker is shorter uh because they are willing to put themsel and tell the story of the brand, show the behind the scenes, uh be in building in public like they are the best advocate for their product. Usually there is a value behind and so they engage with the community, they get visibility uh much faster uh than any brand. And if they go live like uh canvas beauty did or other brands uh live is was for a long time the trick because uh going live Tik Tok wants to Tik Tok shop wants to promote so much live live shopping and wanted to make it work that you have so much eyeballs they are helping you also they give you like a uh a time in their studio they they teach you how to do it like a uh so It's but they give you the eyeballs also. Um for how long it will be uh that way we don't know. Uh it start to be more competitive. They are um the market is not not so great for them right now. Um with everything uh um but it's uh live is also the trick uh because there is less like it's it but it's also more difficult but there is less competition in life. But the thing about live is it's huge in China. You go to Doian in China, which is a Tik Tok in China. And over there, I think live is like massive. And a lot of people in China, they don't want they won't buy. They won't do like you just said in the US where you just click the add to cart button and continue scroll. They want to talk to somebody. They want to have an interaction, DM or physically talk to them before they buy. Versus the US, we don't want to talk to somebody usually. We just want to like do it. And live just hasn't taken off. Amazon's tried to do it. I mean, they still have Amazon Live. It's they it's not it's a cultural thing. Um, that's a huge difference. So, what makes a live work here in in the US on TikTok? Uh, what are some strategies that people that want to do that or if the creator is willing or the owner like you said is willing to go on and do that? What what makes it work? I think for me for for me the most authentic and uh and best way is to have the creator uh or a face of the company uh really talking to the audience but a community and not being hard selling uh and and so this is one part of like what exists. The other part that you see is those like outlandish booth. You have you heard about that outlandish? So this uh agency working with affiliates and and live they have in Santa Monica they have a a an old store warehouse where they have like I don't know 50 or 25 booths they all are alike but they are in the color of the brand and you always have someone selling live like 8 hours 9 hours I don't mean like and so this is a becoming a format um the American format of live uh on on Tik Tok shop which I found like I don't like it uh personally like as as a someone that is very careful about the brand the positioning the message I find it like really too commercial and there will be a fatigue because they all look the same uh it's they are branded but they all look the same so it's kind of like um okay I I'm in a market and I have someone a seller that's coming to me aggressively say like do you want to buy this one? So it's kind of like closing the deal. Uh but I think what's missing right now um is we are in America. America is very good in producing blockbuster movies telling stories uh you know with like the the hero journey and I would like to see live shopping that tell a story. I would like to have more higher production type of um of live shopping that is more linked to interviews like showing the brand the behind the scene like the and Zara for example has done some of it uh um I don't remember where they've done it uh but they they were doing like the preparation of their fashion show and you could see like how the they were thinking about uh preparing for the show and this is I I think live shopping should not be only about selling but it should be tell the story also of the brand that's why when it's creator le it's better because it's not just like the selling it's not just like buy this product it has this feature it's like there is more meat to it and I I'd like to see like more brands uh doing that themsel because then it's about a story about uh uh the brand in itself it's can it's very difficult to outsource uh I would say to I mean you can work with an agency but it has to be your own story. It has to be produced I would say but not like in an authentic way the the iPhone way or the relatable way. Uh it doesn't have to be when I say it has to be produced it doesn't have to be also like in in a studio it could be in a store. Uh you can imagine for example someone gave me that that very good example. You know when you go to Sephora you always have those ladies that are like explaining do you need something they show you the product actually they are paid most of them for you when you when you your arms your hands are but most of them are paid by a brand and so there is always a moment in the discussion where they say oh we have also that type of product in this brand like maybe you like it but they don't have the badge and that they are like working for that brand. Imagine when they when it's down downtown like when down time uh they could take their phone do a live and start to talk about their brand like they are good at talking they are good at presenting the product. So imagine you can be in the store, you can have an army of like uh sellers that are already in all the Sephara and that in their own way with their own words with their own age with their own perspective talk about your own product. You already pay them and then they can make maybe more money because they have the sales commission on top of that. But the brand needs to innovate, give them maybe a specific phone or an access, train them somehow. So we there is a lot of creativity that needs to happen in uh in live shopping and I think right now we try too much to duplicate what's happening in in China and I think we need to take ownership of like we are different here um we we have our environment of e-commerce is very different and so let's let's use that environment the retail networks let's you know there is so many things that we can leverage to make live shopping work, but it's up to the brand to spend the time and find what's worked for them. Yeah, like you said, that that the place that's in LA, the the building that has all these different booths, that's big in Indonesia, too. Uh they do they do some I think that's maybe where they even got the idea. A lot of people don't realize Tik Tok, the US is not Tik Tok's biggest market. It's China. It's called DU in there. And then second is Indonesia. Indonesia is huge. and then the US and then they're they're they're branching out into to Europe right now. When it comes to the cost, I mean, it when Tik Tok first started, they were like they were subsidizing shipping. They, you know, for the sellers, they were doing uh subsidizing some of the promos and uh the percentages were super low just to get things going. And they they got a lot of organic reach, but they're starting to move in that direction. They've even they've announced this. They announced it like in the summer. they're starting to move in the direction like it's going to be more of a paytoplay. Uh, and the organic is still there, but it's going to get cut and cut and cut and now it's more about paying to play, finding these affiliate, letting them see see that something works and then putting uh ad money behind it to actually blow it up and and otherwise they're not going to really extend it out. Uh, what are you seeing in in that regards and then what are some strategies for for that? I I think you still have organic in the sense of virality is not about like how many followers you have but like the story and the angle and the creativity. So you need to have in place a like this feedback loop we were talking about earlier. In that feedback loop, it's very important to have creativity and let creativity be your kind of like way of finding organiz way organic ways to still have like um earned I will say um uh instead of just having paid um but with with everything the evolution of like ads especially on Tik Tok shop with AI and GMV vax where they this inevitable that uh you will have to more boost a video that works. But I think it's also smart for a brand when you have this feedback loop and you see that one creator is starting to blow up because you you have to be very reactive and look really at the needle in the haststack. Which video is like really now like right now blow blowing up? Then you just put more ads. And so it's not about like having an ad budget, it's about the reactivity and like reinforcing what works. And so it's uh it it's again you have to work at scale. You need to have uh a capacity to analyze fast and create feedback loop. And when you do those ads like we call them spark ads, you we have a spark code that the creator gives you. Uh so you need to be you you can also negotiate that is not the same sales commission it's a little lower. So actually doing the ad might boost your your margin at that moment. So it's all about the data the reactivity and the feedback loop and the capacity to engage with affiliate um in volume but also to influence them with that feedback loop. very fast. It's not just a one-off with an affiliate. You want it to be regular, but you want to help them to do a better job at talking about uh talking about your product. So, should sellers and brands be jumping on trends? Like uh back in the summer, I think back in late May, early June, there's a big trend on TikTok of of uh people creating AI baby photos. uh baby things where it's like it take two people and it's you upload a picture to this AI tool and it would create these little v uh take your head like me and your heads and then have make us little babies sitting at a desk doing the podcast and people are putting those out and and putting uh and that became really hot and then some brands started jumping onto that and like trying to do that to promote themselves. Is that wise to do that or does it depend or is that uh short shortsighted? No, I I think it's like you you it's not shortsighted and uh and it's not also critical to your strategy. I think when you have to create so many content over and over every week uh uh every day as a brand you need to post on your own account. You need to make sure that you have the story of your brand. It's good to use a trend for that. It gives you idea. It gives you more modernity I will say on the platform relevancy and maybe the algorithm is using the um the the music and uh boost a little more your video but also people like u relate more if you are using the the trend because it's funny we we engage more it feel like you understand you are in this platform and you understand me as a person that love Tik Tok um so it's good to do it But it's like you need a system and it's more difficult to do it uh with the affiliates. You do it more with influencers or your own account that you you're managing. Um uh so it's it's there are different level I will say where you can influence and do videos. Now with the success of Tik Tok there's been a lot of other social media kind I guess not knockoffs but similar platforms tried to emerge that do what Tik Tok does. Amazon tried it with Aspire and it didn't work. They had to cancel it. There's all these other little ones that oh you um you know you only get to request a product if you have left a review with the seller or you've sold something or they they're trying to fix all these little gaps that people complain about on Tik Tok but none of these have taken off really. Um, and is Tik Tok just so entrenched and so much in the top of mind like Amazon is, right place, right time, and they just got such a lead or do you see that there's some other platform out there in social commerce that may be an upandcomer that you're like, well, we need to watch this one and see what happens. Um, that's a very good question. It's true. when you are a Tik Tok user, you are like the loyalty, the time you spend on the platform is crazy. Like the the volume of time like the the sheer amount of time you spend daily is crazy compared to any other social media. Um that said, you have platform like what what's not in the live shopping space, right? that is has an amazing growth and right now like it's not really for all the brands it's a lot of like more what I call life sellers it's like Etsy at the beginning is like like more small sellers drop shippers having their own stock of product usually you have the stock in the background and they show you the product uh and so it's it's a very different nature it's close also to what eBay is uh is doing with uh live live commerce Um but they their traction their growth is like incredible. So I think this is coming uh on the space and maybe they will add like the version of like the Amazon like or the marketplace in their platform allowing bigger brands or more like a brands instead of like just live sellers selling on the platform. I think it's will be a natural evolution. I'm not talking to them. So I don't know as my own uh hypothesis but um it will make sense. Um so that's uh they they are contenders and it you can think also about uh Facebook uh and especially I mean meta and with Facebook marketplace or back in the days Instagram was trying and it's kind of like doing things in e-commerce uh but they will they will change like everything I think we have to look I always talk about Tik Tok shop and live shopping but actually you have because it is what what's now? Um but you have to look at social commerce in its own beast and and all because everything is moving very fast. Every 3 months the playbook has changed. Uh you you need to do things differently. Um in some part of your playbook uh and there will be more platform coming up. QVC on the live shopping side now they have 247 on Tik Tok. Yeah. Um with QVC because they they're like, "Hey, this TV stuff ain't doing what it used to do. We need to be where where the eyes are and now they're they're they're doing it on on TikTok." So that's I don't I don't know how that's doing for them. Uh that's a relatively recent thing where they went 24/7, but I would imagine it's probably doing all right. I think it's doing all right. I I don't remember the numbers, but um they they are doing good. when you're seeing people come into this space. I saw some stat there's like a million and a half people trying to make a living as an influencer creator, you know, on social media in the US and most of them I think the numbers are pretty dismal. Most of them aren't making any money and like you said earlier when a new shop comes up like one out of five might actually break through. What are what are some things that a seller listening to this like, okay, I I I keep hearing about this Tik Tok thing. I need to get on this bandwagon. What are some mistakes a lot of them make and what's something that maybe a couple tips that they should do to actually have a chance at that cold start or have a chance at actually doing it? We talked about a little bit create the UGC and we talked about but let's like just give them like some bullet points or like a few things that they can they can can do and they shouldn't do. Yeah. I I I think the first thing they need to remember is like a successful brand will have roughly 80% of their re GMV made through affiliates. So that's the power of affiliates. So it means you need gradually uh move from I'm alone, I'm opening my shop to I will have like hundreds of affiliates uh working working with me. And so how you do that? Uh first step is like you need to do your own content. You need to learn like uh what who like what is the user that is buying my product? What is my consumer? Sometime you some shops don't even do that that job and finding like those people on the platform follow them. So create an account. You have your shop account but create like a another account and start to follow people your competitors. Follow people that um are buying the product of your competitors but interact with those videos so that you have a feed that is completely the feed of your audience and then you understand Tik Tok will will start to see oh you are that type of person. So they tell they will show you like the video that you are supposed to like as the audience of your product and the consumer of your product. So you can better understand and put yourself in the shoes uh of your consumer and then you start to get ideas of like what type of video I should be doing, what type of influencers, what type of angle in stories and I'm not even talking about the hooks yet, but like what is a story angle? Is it unboxing? It is day of the life of is it a testimonial into a dry shampoo or what it is? Uh you learn about like be on the platform. I would say second tip is like go on analytics uh platform look at who are your competitors what has been working for them in the past because what they are doing now is might be different of like when they started now they have more budget it's easy for them to get affiliates but you still learn from their video the angle and then try to replicate uh you learn by doing either yourself so if you are creator le that's better and in this case I will say you need to be comfortable able to be in front of the camera and speak uh speak in short form video but also in live and you should be spending some time in live every day. So that's another like learning curve for everyone uh and things you need to do and then after you understand better what type of affiliates what type of creator I can work with and though you t start to outreach called outreach like you you can use platforms you can use you can spend a lot of money uh working also with agencies having a network of creators so depending of like the scale of your company um if you're very small cold outreach to a few of them. Maybe take some people that are like good on Instagram and bring them to to Tik Tok. People that are like working abroad, but you have your own account. Uh and then have them talk on like with what you learn and show them what they should be doing. Try to find your own playbook of the video, the stories, the hooks that works. And once you have that, then you can scale. Then you can go and like buy the platform, go and work with a creator network. But until you have that brief that creative brief that what will be working and converting like you have to do like what is more manual like my son at YC right now he's 17 he's a youngest uh founder ever at YC and when you launch a company in zero to one they always tell you like do things that don't scale you think about like you need to learn you need to try by doing and it's not profitable but that's okay because you learn and you need to learn fast the fastest you learn the fastest you will pivot the fastest you will find what's work and then you scale Tik Tok is the same yeah interesting you say that on the the feeds I know someone has five phones and each phone they keep for like different avatars and they only scroll certain things on each one so so they can see what it shows them and they don't they don't confuse the algorithm uh with their own personal stuff or with something of another client. So they're they're it's working very very you can do it on your own own phone. You can switch easily from one account to another. uh you can create like a ton of uh accounts but it's very important to create your own feed uh for your own avatars so you understand what they see what are the trends what is a vid like the like what a 20 years old like Tik Tok knows like I'm not 20 and so it will not show me the same thing um and so I need to to put myself in their shoes because it's about at the end it's about the the emotional connection the relatability with the avatar so you need to get that uh to at that point that's empathy with your consumer your avatar you need to get that can you talk about the importance of hooks so when you look at the data you see and and Tik Tok is very good at giving you that data of like within the first uh you see that within the first two second uh people are scrolling so the hook is about two to two second to six second but I would say for two second and the drop of like the view is like crazy like you have the data you you can it's funny to do a lot of experiments on that a hook is like really it has three components the hook is like the goal is to make sure that you stop scrolling that you oh there is something that make you watch the video start to watch the video hopefully you stay for the the whole video um and there are three components to the hook it can be visual So a very good thing is like people are moving and then they start to speak. The visual hook it can be I open a door, I move, I I do something. Uh it can be uh that you have like you know those tiny ends. There was a moment where people had a tiny end in their hand. Um that's a visual hook. There is a uh text hook. So you have like a sentence and or a few words where it's it's like on ads on meta. You want the people that should should listen to you to identify themsel very quickly. So you say for me if I were doing for my newsletter uh a video on Tik Tok I will say DTC brand like or something like this or Amazon seller uh and then the what you say uh and you don't start hello guys like no that doesn't work you go directly to to the meat of the thing uh uh of what you want to say what you want to the key like something it could be something doesn't have to be shocking it just have to be very clear and directly to the point. Um, and so it's a skill you learn to do that. You copy by, you learn by copying by doing. Uh, there are always people finding new hooks. You have accounts on Tik Tok that are just talk about hooks, how to do them, what's working. So follow those accounts. Have like one account that is like learning about how to be a creator. Um, so that you can guide also your own creator um, uh, yourself. kind of it's uh and it's evolving because it's uh might change it's changing also. So what what do you think's going to happen long term with Tik Tok? I mean we're still going through some stuff right now. Um but the big issue that the big knock is oh this the Chinese they it's a privacy thing. They know they know everything about us and they can influence our society by the way they screen things or way the algorithm works. But that that may or may not be true. Facebook and Meta and Google, they all got actually more data on us. I guess they're based in the US, so there's some sort of a well, we can actually regulate them differently or uh control them. But what do you think's going to happen here? I mean, it's it's such a big business and there's it's a multi-billion dollar industry on the creator influencer side. Is is this going to get down the road? Do you think this is going to change hands? Uh or do you think uh it's going to be status quo and they'll work it out and it's just kind of go go go away and be like, "Oh yeah, remember that that one year in 2024 and 2025 when they're talking about this?" Where do you think this is going? I I I I always like whenever there was like those discussion about the Tik Tok ban, I think it's like really clickbait for for the news outlet because when you are inside Tik Tok shop and you see like the impact that this platform has on every American either by influencing either because they make a living through affiliates and uh and creator or because of the brands making so much money uh and it could be like a life seller or it can be like a bigger brand. The economic impact of Tik Tok shop is uh real. Um and so the money that is there like no one like there are obviously people that wants to grab that money and that opportunity like I don't see a a world like a vision of our world in like if we think about the matrix where Tik Tok shop is dead um and then obviously the money will go to a better like national interest I would say or national um commercial interest does it depends how we see things uh but definitely it will not uh like I don't see it stopping the thing we can question is like what the form of it will it stay like Tik Tok Tik Tok shop uh or something a little different but that economic power that exist in social commerce is no is not going anywhere social commerce is here to is here to become the number one way of selling is like there is no way it's inevitable that in the future you have social commerce in general making more money than traditional um e-commerce I would say. Awesome. Well, Stephanie, I really appreciate you coming on today and sharing. This is uh this has been great. Uh some good good stuff on TikTok. uh it if people want to reach out to you uh maybe get your newsletter or uh learn more about what you're doing uh helping people out, what's the best way for them to do that? Yeah, so they uh can follow me on LinkedIn and reach out directly to me on LinkedIn. Uh you will put my name which is complex I guess in the notes. Uh but also they can sign up to the newsletter at the talk newsletter. So the uh th newsletter.com um where they can sign up. Awesome. Well, thanks again. Uh appreciate it. Um and uh good luck in the social media world. Everchanging social media world. Ever changing. Social media commerce is not going anywhere. It should be one of the major hubs and spokes in your system of selling e-commerce. Not just Amazon marketplace, but social media and AI should be those three should be a core. And then you can do other things off of that. You know, your Shopify, your Walmarts, your other things, but that should be a core. Just as Stephanie said, it's not going anywhere. It's just going to get bigger and bigger and more more powerful. We'll be back again next week with another awesome episode of the AM PM podcast. Be sure you subscribe to my newsletter, billiondollarellers.com, and we'll see you again next Thursday. Heat. Heat. N. [Applause] [Music] [Applause]