#462 - Inside China’s Amazon Seller Schools: 4,000 Students & One Mission

Welcome to episode 462 of the AM PM podcast. This week I've got a pretty interesting guest I think a lot of you are going to really enjoy. Uh I've got Fang Chao on from Shenzhen, China. She leads a group of uh like 4,000 students in China and she's realized that hey the Chinese are at a disadvantage. They don't understand the West and they don't understand marketing and branding and they they can do everything else. So all the pricing, all the making products different and all the the gamemanship that comes with Amazon. But when it comes to branding and u positioning and culture, they're having a hard time. So she's actually taken upon herself to come to NYU when now this interview I did with her. She was back in China for the summer, but she's about to start her second um year at NYU in a master's program for uh for marketing. and she's trying to learn how to actually help bridge the gap between the west west and the east when it comes to culture and marketing and branding and which she's going to talk about some of the pain points that uh they're having and and some of the ways that they're actually solving these pain points. So enjoy this episode with uh with Fang Chuchu or as they call her over there uh Professor uh Cha Cha. So uh here we go. Uh enjoy it. Welcome to the AM podcast. Welcome to the AM PM podcast. We explore opportunities in e-commerce. We dream big and we discover what's working right now. Plus, plus this is the podcast for Money Never Sleeps. Working around the clock in the AM and the PM. Are you ready for today's episode? I said, are you you ready? Ready. Let's do this. Let's do this. Here's your host, Kevin. Kevin King, I've got an awesome guest on the podcast today, Fun Chow Chow. How are you? How are you doing? Good to see you. Hi. Hi, Kevin. Um, good to see you. I'm so glad to be here today to be a guest speaker. And, um, last time last time we met in Vegas and, uh, today we met in your podcast. Um, let's talk about anything about Amazon sellers. Yeah, we we'll go and do that. Uh, so we met at the Prosper show and I was told that, hey, you got to meet this this girl. She's like a very famous in in China and everybody knows her and and and follows her. And I was like, oh, cool. I'd be I'd love to have you on the podcast. And so now we made I'm in Austin. You're in Shinszen, right? Right now. Uh, and and through the beauty of technology, you know, look what we can do. Yeah. Sure. Uh yeah, actually for the past 10 years I did I was a I'm an Amazon seller and also I'm a coach in Shenzhen. But very funny in uh story for me is I went to New York last year on 2024. Um so I'm currently studying in New York University in integrated marketing at NYU. Yeah, NYU. It's so it's a it's a big shift uh for your whole life. Oh yeah that's true because uh you know I I'm a Amazon seller I manage my company uh I have 50 plus staff and uh we selling Amazon we handle all the things with you know uh Amazon performance team and we we selling uh products we put um advertisements we do everything and I do feel that the price competition is so is so fierce and I'm I'm going to find some new breakthrough for my selling business and at the same time I find out that uh for all my students cuz I I'm also teaching in business school in Shenzhen and uh I have so many students like I have 4,000 students. So the reason why I really changed my whole life I you know I let my manager managers to manage my company and I really uh immerse immersively study in New York is because I do feel that if we cannot understand American people and American culture uh we really cannot sell so well and I really want to do branding that's the reason and because I have uh like 4,000 plus Amazon seller students in Shenzhen I do feel that they need some people to bring uh to lead them to do the real branding. So yeah, I'm in my heart right now and um and I do have some you know um the learning experience also uh give me some inspirations and I do understand why the exact picture in our listing doesn't have a good conversion. So you're studying, so if I understand, you're study, you came uh to NYU in in Manhattan to study marketing uh so that you can help uh your business that has like 50 employees plus all your 4,000 students actually learn how to better market to the Western American uh audience. Correct. Yes, that's true. Yeah. So uh yeah I actually I prepared a little bit um you know to elaborate more about my conclusions. So um so we can imagine there is a iceberg uh what what we can see from the surface is only a small part right. So the visible struggles of Chinese Amazon sellers uh unaffordable at cost and the shrinking profits and the fierce price competition. But under the surface lies the real root of the problem is actually the lack of cultural understanding and we we got no private user base and because all the clients are belongs to Amazon we don't have our own private users and we don't reach them and to communicates with our users and to really listen to their voice and also we we are so lacking of offline retail channels. we are so rely on Amazon. So these hidden challenges are the true um reason to hold our sellers back from building a lot a longlasting brands in the US markets. So so uh I I I do believe I saw a news report that the American sellers also suffered from Chinese sellers low pricing strategy. Right. Yeah. So so yeah. So what you're saying um is that the Chinese sellers are having difficulty because they don't understand the culture and how to properly market to the Americans and then the Americans they say that oh the Chinese have an advantage because they speak the language they can easily talk to the factories they get better pricing they don't they can the people don't their workers don't cost as much uh I'm not saying all this is true I'm just saying this is the and then uh they They a lot of people in their mind the Chinese sellers cheat and I I I think some Chinese sellers definitely cheat but a lot of Chinese sellers don't uh and they they they they play fair but the bad ones give everybody a bad reputation and so that that's unfortunate but um in today's world I I agree with what you're saying and that used to be all the Americans like yeah don't worry about the Chinese uh because they don't know how to market and now if you build a real brand uh that's all about marketing it's not so much about the price it's not so much about some other things you can you can beat them and then AI came out and now the the I'm assuming that a lot of the Chinese are using AI and that can help you write better listings better copy you can ask it questions about the type of customer and so a lot of people are like oh my gosh now the Chinese have they're equal to us uh but what you're saying, and I've heard this from other people, is not so fast. Uh that's still it's still a problem. Um so that that's true. Yes. Yes. Uh yeah, it's really to the points that um the the the risk competition really um you know have a devastating impact on the inter entire ecosystem. Um even though we have AI technology, right? But most of the Chinese sellers, they are still using the uh pricing low pricing strategies. That's true. And we uh for Chinese uh sellers, we do have some brands. We are like you uh like you just said, we we are doing the fair competition. However, most of the sellers don't have that sense. But the result is the sellers compete by constantly lowering price. It becomes an inevitable result that the product quality suffers. You know, cutting corners happens, right? So they have no choice. They have to cutting corners. They have they have to sacrifice to, you know, the the quality of the products, right? To maintain the margin because nobody will do free things. So as a result, the whole quality of goods online declines. So in Manhattan, I really have the feeling that the people who have a good quality of life, they prefer to shop offline. They want to look for the products, feel the products offline, the store. And I see I really saw the price, you know, a sofa in a offline shop store in Manhattan. It cost at least $500. 1,000. That's very normal. But in Amazon, take take a look at the listing. 150 bucks you can get a sofa. Yeah. So, so the results happens, right? I I don't think it's good to Amazon to the platform itself. I don't think it's a good thing. So, all the, you know, yeah, there's there's some people that don't care. There's some people uh, you know, Americans, they they just want the low price. They don't care how long it lasts. But a lot of people, they do want want the quality. And you're right. Um that it's a trust thing cuz I me as a shopper, if I go on Amazon and the brand name is a bunch of letters, cuz a lot of Chinese sellers, they use the some weird letters as their brand name, immediately I don't want to buy that product unless it's something very simple. If it's maybe a a knife, you know, for my kitchen or it's something simple uh for the kitchen, a commodity item, then maybe I I will buy that. But the nicer stuff, I I don't I don't trust it. Um, and I know the Chinese people in China is the same when when you're going on JD.com or 16 18 uh 1688 or whatever. A lot of the Chinese are like, "Ugh, this stuff is uh not very good. I rather go and and buy it in the store or I want to buy it uh off a wechathat off of a live stream of somebody that that I trust." Um, so I know it's it's a problem. Yeah. So Kevin, you're not so good of China. I feel that I I well I've been there you know in China maybe I maybe you were there about uh seven years ago I was there with Brandon Young and we spoke at an event and it it it was a it was very eye opening to me um just like you coming to the US is different and this event was on a Sunday and there was like 2,500 Chinese sellers there some of them were workers of the companies some of them were the owners and and there's hardly any events in the US that are that big. Maybe one or two, but this was every single Sunday. And there were like six speakers and the woman that was hosting was in a nice dress and looked very beautiful and the whole the the stage was very nice. And I was like, "Holy cow, this is every single Sunday." Um and uh I remember I I did a presentation on how to do postcards, how to reach your customers. Um, you you were talking about that. Yeah. On how to do postcards. And I remember uh David Woo told me like two or three years later, he said, "Kevin, now every Chinese seller does postcards cuz you you showed us how to do postcards." But was interesting is to me was the Chinese listened to me and they did it. And a lot of them had some good success. Some of them not so much, but a lot of them had some good success. But the Americans, when I told to them, they're like, "Ah, no. I just I'm gonna do they didn't pay so much attention." And so, it's like the Chinese are hungry. The Chinese sellers are hungry. They're they're willing to work hard. They're willing to to do a lot of things that the American sellers won't. And I but I think one of the biggest issues that the American sellers have with the Chinese factories is they don't respect the trademarks and the IP. And this this is a big problem right now in America where a seller will make a new product and have a new idea and go and get the patent and the trademark and all the IP and then 3 months later uh either the factory or the guy down the street or some other there's always all of a sudden 100 other people mostly Chinese seller selling the exact same thing into Amazon and it it's very frustrating. Um but but it's a cult it's a cultural difference. So, I mean, the the laws are different. The and the Chinese don't see that they're doing anything wrong versus the the American sellers is like, "What the heck? You're just stealing this from me." But the Chinese like, "No, we're just taking it, making it better or changing it." So, that those are there's always these little uh things between American Chinese sellers kind of butting their heads. Um um but but some of the there's some very very smart Chinese sellers uh that do some really amazing things. uh very good business business men and women. Yeah, I totally uh yeah that that's true. Um I feel that Chinese sellers are really obsessed with all the skills operation uh like how to um like merge listing, how to handle all the reviews and as you as you said to choose products to select products from what other sellers are selling and do do some minor um changes and just launch it. Um but however uh Chinese sellers have a stronger sense of IP infringements in recent years. That's the lesson taught by Amazon because Amazon has so such a strict um you know policies on IP infringement. So uh after years of education uh Chinese sellers start to be aware of that and to register patent whatever and to do something more innovative cuz at least uh some of my students they are doing so I uh advise uh them to have their own research and design departments to build a team to design their own products and to register patent and to you know to uh to do a fair competition. Yeah. Yeah. It I I agree. It's gotten better, but it's it's still a big problem. It's such a big problem that we have companies now in the United States and lawyers. That's all they do. All they do is they they fight they help sellers, American sellers and European sellers fight mostly Chinese sellers uh that are infringing on their rights. Sometimes somebody complains that, "Oh, I have a a hijacker or a a copy or a counterfeit on my listing." And it's really not. Um, but and they just they they just think it is. But there's cases where I know people that have had their listings shut down in America uh because of of these problems. And it's it's an issue that somehow I agree Amazon is is uh trying to enforce it more, but because Amazon is so big, it's difficult. there's a lot of uh little holes and little little places and and there's some people like you just said uh the Chinese sellers like to to game the system. The American sellers what what really motivates them when it comes to Amazon is they they love to know how to launch their product. That's like if I do a webinar or I do a training, how do you launch your product to the first page? They're like everybody's there wanting to pay attention. If you show them how to uh um do something with some AI uh to make their pictures or to do something to save some time and money, they all really really love that. And the PPC, they they anything around the PPC, they they they really really love. But American sellers, believe it or not, a lot of them are not good at the marketing. They're not good at the branding. They're not good. Maybe they're better than the Chinese just because they live here and they grew up this way and so they know a little understand it a little bit more, but I see there's a massive opportunity on on Amazon even for Western US sellers to actually make their branding better. And I think once the Chinese, like you said, figure out maybe what you're going to learn here at NYU University and some of the branding and you're going to be exposed to in the States, they're going to get better at it and they're going to work harder at it, I think. And I think that's a big opportunity. Alibaba's trying to do some of this right now and help bridge this gap. Just like if I went to China, I don't I you know, China, a lot of pe a lot of Americans have never been to China. Most Americans have never been to China. So they think of China as 25 years ago in their head. They say they see the movies. They think of China as a bunch of people with plows in a field and they have no idea that Shenzen and Shanghai and Guangha and all these cities are more modern than New York. They're more there's more technology, more modern um and the because they're newer and it's the latest stuff and they don't realize the strength of the Chinese. I think the American seller is very good at innovation. Um the American culture is very good come up with a new iPhone or come up with a new uh some sort of uh machine and then I think the Chinese are very very good at taking that and making it better at the second generation of innovation like changing it a little bit figuring out okay engineering how can we make this a little bit cheaper if we change this or we do this or we make this machine they're very good at that and so I think that's Um, a lot of people don't quite understand uh some of the fundamental differences, but it's interesting. So, in your company with 50 employees, is this a you selling millions of dollars worth of products? Um, or is it a big company? Um, yeah, because I have been selling for over 10 years. Uh, the time was 2013. I was back from Singapore. I lived in Singapore for for eight years. uh because of Amazon I went back to Shenzhen. Okay. So yeah so uh so let's uh follow from the points that compare the Chinese sellers and Amazon sellers. I do feel like that I would love your opinion. Yes, I would love yeah I do feel that two uh two kind of sellers re really need to learn from each other. uh like what you said um Shenzhen Shanghai is totally different from what American people's mind and we are so developed uh in terms of infrastructure buildings and you know the trains uh everything and al also the manufacturing the supply chain. So I I think um American sellers can come to China to take a look to really talk to the manufacturing plants and to you know to get better products and and um better price, better supply chain. But for Chinese sellers uh the important issue is that we have to really learn American culture to really do branding, do marketing well. So I I think this is our topic. I mean the main topics about today. So I'm going to uh dive deeper. Um so I'm going to like um how to break the you know the price competition occur and the sellers must shift from competing on price to competing on values through branding through quality through the user engagement. So um so let's that deeper. Um so my first point is that um due to the lack of understanding of American culture there's there is a significant gap in marketing tastes and the consumer expectations. So most of the time our marketing approach like the A+ pictures the videos and uh even the package box doesn't resonates with consumers. There is a very interesting very funny example. The day is my uh digital marketing class. My classmates the the um most of them are from US local uh and I were reviewing some Amazon listings to for the lighting products because the time we are doing the projects for mom design store and mom selling lightings and lamps. So we just uh uh said that oh we we just searched some from the Amazon and to compare uh the price the product. Um so we searched that we search lamb in Amazon and you know my classmates they they can immediately tell me that which listing were from Chinese sellers. Why? Because the overall aesthetic, the aesthetic, the feeling, they they're so cluttered and they they kind of overly dramatic and and they are lacking in visual appeal. They're totally different from local sellers. So, so what I I was like I asked my classmates, what do you appreciate? What do you like? Oh, they they told me that they like a more refined minimalist style with uh you know the s of use of negative space a sense of you know the the the the elevated beauty. So they they cares about aesthetic beauty. So this you know um so suddenly I understood that the the pictures the aesthetic feelings really leads to a lower conversion rates and I recall the time I had meeting with my staff and we we have we had all the meetings the weekly meetings to look at all the data from Amazon to to analyze uh the conversion rates the clickthrough rates and the cost uh the the e- cost and Suddenly in NYU in Manhattan's classroom, I find out that's the reason why the conversion rate is so low. However, I do feel that many Chinese sellers may not even realize this gap exists. So that's very funny. Mhm. Yeah. They don't Yeah, I I agree with your classmates. I can often tell that it's a um a Chinese listing because a lot of times the way things are worded AI is helping this, but you just look at the words, it's almost like a they call it ching English, like a mix of English and it's not the proper uh way. And if you look at the pictures, the what they're emphasizing sometimes in the pictures or the way that the arrow is pointing at something uh that's a feature of the product, it it just looks off. And that's that's exactly what you're saying. That's aesthetics. Uh so um I agree um that that's a it's a two different things from two different cultures. Yeah, I agree. So so for the culture wise, I have another example. I have a very positive example. Uh this is also another project for my which class let me think about it. Or for my campaign for my campaign class. Um you know there there's a brand the name is Sodi Janeiro. Um actually it's uh this brand has advertisement in Manhattan subway. So in the subway we saw the advertisements. Um this brand is so good. They are making use of the culture because uh it it is famous for its fun and tropic energy and uh the you know the iconic brands uh products is the Brazilian bum bum cream. Uh so so the list uh so you you can search if you have interest in these brands and this brand is so good. They're making use of the Brazilian culture. They're using of the culture to cultivate the whole brand and they're doing so well. Um in the year of let me see in the year of 2021 it was acquired by the lockitan group and let me check about the sales. Um in the year of 2023 they achieved uh 267 million. Oh that that's the gross rates. So for the 2024 for the year of 2024 their sales surpassed uh 2023 and achieved 600 $686 million euro that's a huge and that that's really a legend you know the the case for branding because the the the SQU the skew is so little they only have like less than 50 SKs however they achieved such a big volume of sales. That's all because of its brand positioning and how they market, how they brand their products and they're selling so damn expensive. Yeah. Yeah. Um we we can uh it's available in Sephra in all the Sephra across US and it's so expensive and it's selling so well and it's just a very good very um you know like a magic case study in the whole skincare industry. So that that's a good example of making use of the culture things to do marketing to do branding. So I I Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. So, so the first point is uh culture culture things um learn more about American culture and to uh to increase the aesthetic taste. So, how do you how do how do you do that? How do you teach the Chinese? How are you going to teach your student now that you came to New York and you you'll be back for the next semester, but how do you now that you're learning this? How do you teach them how to do this? So, now you understand, you just explained to me what the difference is. How do they actually learn that? Do they watch movies? Do they use AI? Do they come visit America? Do you hire an American company to to be like help you? Um, how do how do you actually make that step to fix this problem that you just explained? Okay, very good question. For the Chinese seller, Kevin, you are really a good host. You have really good question. Thank you. Thank you. So firstly uh before I came to US uh before I came to Manhattan I already am aware of this issue. So um I'm a private coach. Uh I I'm I'm leading nine uh big stellar companies. Uh I have I have meetings weekly with the with the leaders. So for some of the companies I do repositioning for them. I okay we we have conversations and I get guide them how to do consumer insights how to really match your products to some culture issues to some culture points that really can helps you to do marketing let me think about some example okay it's usually it's usually pain points and solutions are the two things you really want to focus on uh are two of the big ones uh for getting American people to high uh and and then that that those are two of the biggest there's others but those are two big ones but go ahead um with how you're teaching it um yeah actually for positioning wise uh I can't teach them it's it's delivered by my private coach um so for example one of my classmate they are selling stuff related with toys with, you know, the fluffy toys. Uh, and I I'm sure that you you must know that the labubu is so popular right now in in US, right? Labu. Yeah. Yeah. So, three years ago, one of my cl one of my students is selling uh those kind of toys, but of course, it's definitely different from Labu. And uh she's so care about IP things. So we do different things. Uh so I coached her to build a team to build a research and design team that team consists of three people and I trained the three people uh how to do research in in US market and to find out the you know the uh sense the trend of the certain target audience. So firstly we have a target audience we don't do Mars market. Secondly, we investigate and do research among those target audience. We know their what what they likes and what they cares and we use that um information to the product development. So she did so well uh her GMV doubled every year even though in such a bad environment the the the competition so so fierce but she still have the growth. She she did it. And um so how did you do how did you do this? So you what you just said is right. Uh but did you use tools? Did you use some databases? Did you look at some magazines or watch some videos? How did you give her figure out how to know what you just told me to tell her what to do? What what was the process? Was was it um what was a what was a pro I just so I can understand like where is how can we help or like how can uh where's the opportunity here for the people listening maybe from China they're listening to this uh or maybe the people from America they might learn something too um so uh because it could go what you're doing maybe it goes the other way maybe an American person wants to sell in China so maybe some of your techniques they can use to learn how does the Chinese I don't know that's why I'm asking Can you be a bit a little bit more specific? Uh, just give me, you don't have to give me all your secrets, but just like one example of something like, okay, we took this brand with the girl with the plush toys that was very careful with her IP and you said they doubled their her GMV. All right, this is how we figured out who her ideal customer is. We did these three things. Can you can you give me an example of something like that? Sure. Um, okay. Uh I I may start from very common tools that maybe everyone of you can use which is very useful that is the Facebook data because Facebook is the first social media that's really track all the demographic and psychographic info of people. So so uh you know the the the Zuckberg also fac some lawsuits right because he tracked all the information. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so you can So, when you say that, does that mean cuz Facebook you can see the advertising? So, you can see all the ads of someone that's advertising. Do you go and like find a a similar product and like, oh, this is how they're doing all their advertising on Facebook. Oh, this one is running for 3 months. It must be good because they keep spending money. So, let's put this one over here. This is maybe one of the ideas we should study. And here's another one. Is Is that kind of what you're saying? Kind of kind of like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin, you're so so professional. Yeah, you knows all the, you know, tactics. Um, but my my my method is like um we are more looking at the demographic and and psychographic data and we we try to avoid the doing the same thing with other competitors. We're trying to find the right market and to to to you know to contribute all our resources and focus on the on the market which has the battle out to win and yeah um that's the first tool. Another tool is so that that that means that means you're running ads on Facebook testing. You're running some ads on to get some of that data to see the positioning. You could run ads, try this one, try this one, try this one, try this one. Maybe you get some of the customers to actually go to a landing page and give you some information so you can get some of their data and like, oh, look, they all drive this kind of car and they all have three kids. Is it something similar similar to that? Yeah, correct. That's exactly that's that's good. That's smart. That's smart. That's very smart. Yeah. But but before that the I mean the deeper deeper root is like we have to know the culture and to the life to know the life of American people. uh just uh share with you something that I never think about it in when I was in Shenzhen is I don't know that marana is is legal and it's so popular in some some states of in America marijuana marijuana marijuana yeah I'm sorry yeah and that that's really a shock for me when I first time I worked on the Manhattan street I feel something you smelled something strange you know, and you felt a little headache. That's my classmate and told me, "Oh, oh, that's right. I cannot imagine that when you in China, right?" It's Yeah, you you can Yeah. Sometimes it was like joke my with my classmates like if you do the scene in China, you will immediately be sentenced to jail. Yeah. you take away your Subway card, you lose some points. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah. And um you know uh there there's some brands they're selling the things really so good. They they catch the aesthetic taste of Gen Z and they do the rebranding the the the you know the design of the packages and design of the products. The the marijuana is so cute and be beautiful. I mean the products but but I didn't do that. Okay. I swear I didn't do that. I believe you. I I believe you. All right. So, so yeah, that's a good example of really know the life and culture of American people. Uh that that's kind of uh a special case, right, for for the the marijuana. But I can say that for just now the case I mentioned the sol general is another case like understanding the culture issues because um some of most because I don't have the data now so I cannot code you a percentage but I can I can tell that the Brazilian culture is so popular is so popular in US uh the the fun and tropical energy issue know the the tropical energy pattern the vibes is so popular. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. The vi the the tropic. Yeah. Tropic tropic energy vibe. Tropical vibe of products and Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like the island vibe or the Yeah. Is that what you mean? Yeah. Yeah. So, like Yeah. Cuz that's a a lot of uh Americans that's their favorite vacation is go to somewhere that's a tropical. It's almost that's a paradise to them. That's like a dream to go and lay on the beach and go where it's very good weather all the time and um they can drink and have fun and so yeah that's a that's a it's a big appeal. Yeah. So back to the question asked me how to get the data. Um after I came to NYU, I find another good database is our library. As um my my professor told me that you spend like 60 million dollars in building our library. So I do have access to many valuable datas which is really different from the markets because I went to the adequ tools available in the market but after I compare the data I can tell that they're so different the the data in the market are so simple and not really not really uh comprehensive and to the point and I also have doubts on the uh you know the accuracy of the data but for for our library I I think is uh all the university has has their open database uh I can tell that uh the data from experiments research are more reliable. Yeah. Yeah. So uh so I use uh NYU database to look at the also uh demographic, psychographic and the consumer trends all the things from the problem you get you made a good point. I want to just I want to just uh stop you just for a second because I want to make sure people understood what you just said. You said that the data, and I agree with you, that you $60 million library that has books and uh microfilms and special computers and showing all this research from maybe NYU or MIT or other scientists where there's actually proven stuff versus all these AI tools that you said you saw at the AdWeek show are kind of cool, but you're like, I don't know if I can trust this. And I think that's an important point is because the AI tools are picking up everything that's on the internet and there's a lot of bad information that people think is the right information. Maybe someone taught a a training course and they said, "Oh, you should always put uh never use an arrow uh in your picture that goes to the right because that always makes the brain do this. You should always use the one that comes down." I'm just making something up here. That always comes down. And that's actually false. they just said that because their friend said that and somebody else said that and maybe they heard it on some crazy radio show and so then it becomes the truth and then the AI picks that up and it says, "Okay, a lot of people are talking about this. It must be the truth." And so that's what it gives you versus the studies that you're seeing in the library are scientific studies of people that are studying this that are very smart and in in environments that are controlled and so the information is much more reliable and credible. I mean there there are some studies you have to be careful because what is the who is paying for the study maybe they have an interest to make make sure there's a certain result that comes from it because you can skew data uh but that's a very important point I want to make sure everybody picked up on that you just said that's that's very very good so I'm I'm sorry to interrupt I just wanted to make sure that was understood exactly yeah good understanding of all the data issues that's true I remember there is a brand um I I know the name is Rasonet or something. Yeah, I I do feel maybe taste the the brand this brand is the company that's really doing seriously this AI tools uh for um sellers to do audience insights to do research. However, um yeah, so so just as my professor told me, we have to be careful of the resource and the method how the data comes out. Yeah. So um so okay so for cultural issues and um uh we can sum up here another uh topic is um I want to talk about is the retail network. So do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do we have time to do that or we can do another yes of course no of course let's let's do it okay so so this is really a big issue for Chinese sellers because um Chinese sellers are so rely on Amazon one company may may have 10 20 Amazon accounts and this is not a secret right is is I mean yeah that's not that's not a secret some of them have 50 or 100 or more yeah okay all right So, so well, one one is very clean and then then uh they play all the rules and some of the other ones not so much. Uh so, yeah. No, I I know that happens quite a bit with some of the sellers. Um but other sellers, they have like you said a lot of legitimate accounts too. But go ahead. I'm sorry. Yeah. So, so the lack of um offline retail network is a critical weakness for many Chinese sellers. But um you know in the US roughly 70% of the product sellings happens in offline. So a su a successful stores. Yeah. So all the successful brands whatever whatever brand I saw in Manhattan or you know from because I went to California, Vegas and Miami. I I saw some brands they are also available in retail chain shop. uh for example uh leading CPG brands will enter Whole Food for food products and sofa Ala for beauty products and in Costco their home products and furnitureures. So most of the Chinese sellers they lack the experience to navigate offline retail and they are also too consumed too engaged you know stacked with managing Amazon's constantly shifting policies and operational issues. So, well, there might be a couple reasons. There might be there might be a couple reasons. Maybe you're going to talk about them here in a second, but that if you're not a brand, a true brand, back to your original point, it's very difficult to get retail in the US. And then also, you said back to your other point that you said earlier, a lot of the Chinese sellers are very good at cutting the cost. Let's make it cheaper, cheaper, cheaper. Like you said, the the the couch that's $150 that falls apart versus the 500. The the stores don't want that. And so they they shy away from from from that uh quite a bit. Um and so those are two of the and and it's harder to do gaming like not gaming like you're going to play your Xbox but to like a lot of the Chinese sellers like you said you said it too. They they like look at the numbers and look at the reports and how can I do this and how can I get this keyword and this that's much more difficult to do in a retail environment. So the uh there is data and you know there's things but you can't you you lose some of the control uh and so if you and and it also takes more money because you you get paid slower, it takes longer to get things things in. True. So it's a whole a whole another business model. So that I just want to make sure those are some of the very obvious reasons but go ahead please continue. You've got some great uh great insights. Um, so what's what else is happening in the retail that makes it difficult for the Chinese? Yeah. So, um, I cuz I went to Whole Foods every two to three days to buy my grocery. So I I do find out there so many brands are doing so well um you know in they they they are visible in in the in the Whole Foods and I sometimes I check their background I find out it's only a five year company and because they have followers they have some social media buzz um and they they they have their clear brand positioning and they're doing sort of good in in sales. and marketing and finally they got a chance to go into Whole Food. So um so do branding and to you know to do a fair competition and really export opportunities in offline retail train shop that will lead to a easier life for Chinese sellers. So um so to for the last part of uh this um this conversation because just now uh Kevin also asked me what do I do I do uh I I think for Chinese sellers I will continue my uh consultancy company um to help them to really do branding in US market. So I'm recruiting I'm recruiting uh US local professionals to join my team. So if you're listening to Kevin's podcast and you are um like digital marketer, content creator, whatever uh positions, right, you can contact with me and join my team because I really have I show I filter good Chinese sellers. uh they they are doing so well in in selling and there is opportunity for them to move forward to the next level to to do branding and we will use all the local professionals to help the the the sellers. That's one thing and for another thing uh is for American sellers. Uh we may have some opportunities like I I'm not sure uh whether Kevin will be interested. Uh I think we can have some joint events like bring your uh American sellers to really visit China and to you know to get battle sources to get the supply chain and you know to to uh have a conversation with Chinese sellers to learn from each other and to you know to enforce a fair competition environment. I think that that's the valuable things that we can look forward to. And uh for my contact information, if Kevin uh mentioned just now, uh I use Xiao Xiao X IO Xio phone is my surname in LinkedIn. You can contact with me through LinkedIn or through Kevin where I I really appreciate this opportunity to be here today and I'm glad uh to have another or following you know uh conversation if cab interested. Yeah. Yeah. I I would definitely love to talk talk again. I think exactly what you said the branding opportunity is huge. And just to illustrate a point of what you're saying, I do an event here in the US called Market Masters. And at the very first Market Masters, I had a woman fly from Shenzen. She owns a Amazon business in Shenzen. She makes razors. Uh I don't know if some people here in the US, maybe you haven't heard of it. It's called Manscape. And it's a razor for men to to trim their hair on their body in in their private parts, on their back, on their on their chest. and she has a product that she made that's similar and she made it better. It's a really good product. She's got IP on it, but she is doing seven $70 million a year on Amazon. Uh and she's having trouble with the branding. So, she came to my market masters event. She flew from Shenzen to the event and she sat in the hot seat where we had all these experts like analyzing her business. It wasn't a presentations. It wasn't like a conference like you went to in Vegas. It was people analyzing her business and telling her and she when she sat down, she's like, "I need to know how to do marketing and branding. I have no idea." And it turns out that she had hired a company in the United States to help her with this. And she was paying them like a crazy amount of money. Like even the other experts were like, "Why are you paying this company $50,000 to do this thing?" She's like, "Well, I don't I don't know who to talk to. I don't know what what to do and I'm I I'm desperate cuz I know this is a problem and I need to fix it. So, she was getting taken advantage of. So, I think there's there's some opportunity there for and there's Chinese sellers that have the money and have the capacity and the desire to actually learn. But then you look at some the problem is I'm fine with that because I'm I've been I'm an international person but a lot of Americans who have not traveled very much they're very much USA flag USA. You look at what Trump is doing with the tariffs and a lot of people don't understand. He keeps saying back and you know earlier this year when he's saying well we're going to bring all the jobs back to America. We're going to bring the manufacturing back to America. I'm like no you're not. That's not going to happen. you maybe a couple cases here and there that you I'm not going to say there's not some some might happen. Um but the vast majority China is just too good at it. They're very very good at that. Uh but they're not as good at the marketing and the branding as we are. So if we could figure out how to work together, I think it's would be good. But some of the Americans are going to see that the the good old we call them here the good old boys. They're like the the guys u that are just all American. they they they drive a big pickup truck and you know they got a gun in the back and they're just all American culture. They're gonna say that's sleeping with the enemy. You mind why are you going and helping our enemy uh do that? And I don't look at it I don't look at it that way. U but that's a that's a cultural thing that we have to overcome. um that that might be a little bit of a challenge in some cases, but I think the opportunity to work together is stronger um and to help each other out and especially if there's advantages to both sides. Uh like like you said, there could be advantages to both sides where you guys can help us learn some things and we can help you uh learn some things and I think that's that's a better way to to move forward. Yeah, that's true. Exactly. Yeah. you have really good understanding of other situations in terms of economic markets and even politics. Yeah, we try to avoid the topics of politics but seems like it's inaptable is it happens it's is here. So yeah, so just sometimes we we can wait for well and just look forward to the bigger opportunities to work together. So you're coming back to NYU to continue. Are you getting a master's in marketing? Is that what you're doing or is it a special program that you're a branding program or um Yeah. How long is is it two year two years program or how long is the program? Yeah, it's a two-year master program. Um uh so I will finish my study on next year May. I already uh completed half of the classes. Yeah. Okay. And and how do you feel that you this has helped you immensely like a lot? This has really really helped you a lot in understanding. Yeah, it's definitely a milestone for my whole life of doing marketing and branding and uh it seems like how to say really opens a new window for me and I'm so you know peace I have a peaceful mind and I know how to direct my company too and I know how to coach my students and um yeah it's helped me a lot. So when you come back to Shenzen, are all your friends I know you're back there for the summer. Are all your friends going, "Hey, we got to get together. You got to tell us all the secrets. What do we got to do? Come on, tell us tell us tell us." Are you are you are you seeing that happen? Are your students like, "What's the secret now that you've been in in America?" You saw everything. Are you getting that kind of thing from them? Yeah, the my students are like asking me, "Oh, um, Sha Sha, where are you? teacher. They call calling me teacher. Yeah. Oh, that that's awesome. That's awesome. Well, hey, uh, teacher Shasha, I really appreciate you coming on, uh, on the AMM podcast. This has been fun. We'll have to after you after you've gone through a little bit more on the branding in the next year of class, we'll have to bring you back and say, "Okay, now what is the secret? What do we got? what what what are you going how are the Chinese going to now do branding and uh marketing much better and you're like I got all the answers. Uh cuz now I have a masters from NYU. Uh so it's going to uh it's going to be great. Um but I really appreciate you taking the time and uh and coming on today. Yeah, I really appreciate your the opportunity to have a conversation with you and yeah, it's so fun and happy. Thank you so much, Kevin. Thank you. No matter your political stance or what your views are on u democracy or communism or Trump versus versus China's president or anything like that, I think you can see that we're still common people at the base. The guys in the weeds down here are are very very similar. And I think we can benefit each other instead of uh arguing with each other and fighting. But it takes an understanding. And that's the problem, like I said in the in this episode, that a lot of Americans don't fully understand. If you've been to China, you've got an a pretty good idea. You've been to the Canton Fair, you've been over there to visit your factories or even as a tourist uh to some of the bigger cities, you you have a better understanding. But that's very small percentage. And it goes the other way. A lot of Chinese have come to the uh they come to United States to study primarily uh but they um and a lot of them end up staying but still not massive tourism. And so another better understanding of the two, I think we can benefit each each other where we can teach them a few things and they can teach us a few things and I think that's going to be a more harmonous society and world for e-commerce sellers going forward. Uh so I hope you got something out of this and it gave you some different perspective and uh enlightened you a little bit on uh the differences between the US uh selling uh which is basically very similar to Europe or Australia and the Asian uh mindset and the problems that they're having. We'll be back again next week with another awesome episode of the MPM podcast. might even be talking a little bit more sourcing uh and someone else that's got a ton of experience uh in China and it's going to bring a whole different perspective to everything. So, I hope you have a great week. Remember, this episode comes out every single Thursday, a new episode of the AMM podcast. Be sure to hit that subscribe button here on YouTube or on Apple Podcast or Spotify or wherever you're listening to this. And sign up to the billiondollar sellers newsletter, billiondollscellers.com. It's totally free. It's in English, but you can translate it. Uh, every Monday and Thursday, a brand new edition comes out that'll help you in your journey of selling in e-commerce. Take care, and we'll see you all again next week.