#460 - Affiliate Armies, Viral Videos, & the TikTok Shop Playbook with Tommy Lynch

to episode 460 of the AMM podcast. This week we're talking Tik Tok shop. What it takes to actually deal with affiliates and creators and how how to get started if you haven't even started. How do you get those those first views or those first buys going? Some of the tactics that people are using behind the scenes. Kind of like the old days of Amazon. We got Tommy Lynch from Cult Content on and that's what we're going to be discussing. He's got an interesting story I think you're going to like, especially one about a little uh little school bus. So enjoy this episode with Tommy Lynch. Welcome to the AM podcast. Welcome to the AM podcast where we explore opportunities in e-commerce. We dream big and we discover what's working right now. Plus plus this is the podcast for Money Never Sleeps. Working around the clock in the A.M. and the PM. Are you ready for today's episode? I said, are you you ready? Ready? Let's do this. Let's do this. Here's your host. your host Kevin King, Tommy Lynch. How you doing, man? Good to have you on the AM podcast. How's it going? I'm doing good, Kevin. Thank you for having me. I appreciate uh appreciate you bringing me on. So, uh for people that uh don't know, uh what's your story, man? What how long you been doing this e-commerce stuff? So, I guess I've been I've been in e-commerce. I mean, if you count when I was a young I guess probably like a decade. So, when I was um when I was 15, I started a pallet furniture business. And so, you'll actually see like I built that headboard. This is like my bed frame. It's all built out of recycled shipping pallets. And so, when I was 15, I would take apart these pallets and I would sell them at the farmers market and then I would also sell them on my website. Um, and then from there I got into like print on demand, Etsy shop. I had that going for a little bit and then it wasn't until after I graduated college or graduated high school. I moved into a school bus that a friend and I had bought and I needed like a job that I could do from the road. So I was like, I'll become like a content creator, marketer sort of freelancer. And so I was doing that for a while. And then uh about two years ago, I really was like, okay, I need to move in more into like the agency space. And so that's what I'm doing now is building cult content. So So wait, we gota we gota go back 15. What are you like I I deal with a lot of pallets and I hate getting rid of these things. I I get shipments coming in like I have a one of my businesses is calendars and so it's seasonal. So every August I get tons of freaking pallets coming in and I store them in the warehouse and I got to get rid of these damn pallets because it's a public storage unit where I store them. Um, and I I don't keep it year round. I get I just keep it seasonal for that particular business. So, these pallets I'm like I know you can call somebody and they'll come pick them up or or they'll come get them for you. Some people will buy them from you, but I I usually just go find a construction site that's like some where they're building a new neighborhood and they got those big, you know, they make those temporary trash cans in the front yards that have like a wood around them. Uh, and I'll just dump them in there. But, so at 15, where were you getting the pallets? I would get them from like um my high school or like it was the you know the the either the high school, the middle school there was like some I think behind like a HomeGoods I would just find them and uh like just discarded ones or you had a arrangement with them to go pick them up. Uh sometimes both like they'd be discarded and then there was also like there was a brewery where I would pick them up from and I knew the like one of the guys working at the brewery and so I'd pick pallets up from there and and then bring them back. Did you have a shop somewhere or you're doing this your garage or your parents house or where were you where were you making this furniture? My parents garage. I would take them apart and like do it in the yard and cut it up with you know circular saws and and all that and uh Oh wow. Yeah. And so it was it was a fun time. It was a fun creative endeavor too cuz I was making it and selling it and that was uh I don't know. I definitely learned cuz I there were times when I'd be at the farmers market and it would be like several weeks straight where I wouldn't make a single dollar. Like I'd make barely enough to cover the fee to to be there at like in the market. And learning that at like 15 and learning the patience where it's like I was there, I was showing up. I was g giving it my all, putting my, you know, blood, sweat, and tears into this furniture and then I'd be like barely, you know, making making any sales with it. and I'd be like, "Dang, like that's that's hard." And it it would piss me off, but like I'm glad I went through that because then I've learned to like that patience that's really really required to like make any business work. So So then you said you sold them on Etsy and on other places. So you were shipping this these big wood things to people basically. Yeah, it was expensive. I remember I got one order through my through my store and it was to like North Carolina and just the shipping on it was like a hundred bucks because it was an end table, big bulky heavy end table. Yeah. Um and so it I ended up uh not like sometimes I I like wonder like if I were to have stuck with it like what where would I have gone? And I think I would have had to go into like really polished like super nice high-end furniture still like doing the rustic recycled stuff but like and then selling pieces for like you know 2 3 4 $5,000 to like interior designers or that kind of thing. Um but so during this whole process you sold one unit online I did I sold more um at the farmers market. Okay. So I would be there sitting there all day every weekend sewing it. But Oh, cool. So then you said next you when you graduated high school you went and lived in a bus like I did. I lived converted a bus like these guys that convert vans to like these travel. Y'all converted an old school bus to like a little apartment or something basically. Yeah. So when I was uh cuz I was in high school during CO and so Okay. CO came my junior year of high school and they you know they basically cancelled school and so a friend and I we were we were out messing around in the middle school parking lot one one evening as you do and um we were looking at these buses and we're like dang like I wonder how much you could get a school bus for and so we looked it up that night and was like they're selling like these used school buses for like a couple thousand dollar and so then then that got the cogs turning. And I was like, "Okay, we could like if we both get jobs working at the Safeway and save up some money and buy, you know, buy a school bus, like we could actually do this in a couple months." And so then we that's what we ended up doing. And we got a bus for three grand, 35 ft school bus. Um, and then old yellow school bus. This is one of those old yellow like school buses that said something XYZ ISD on the side or something. Yeah, exactly. It was the It was Lowden County Public Schools. And we bought this old bus. And when we when we had it, like there's still stuff in there. Like if like if you reach between like the cracks between some of like the storage spots, like you'll find um like notes that like kids had left for like the bus driver like a decade ago, like two decades ago, how you know, who knows how long. Um but it's it's funny. And so we got that and then you know, put a strip out all the seats and everything. Yeah. took out all the seats, put solar panels on it, put a TV in there, an Xbox 360, um you know, bed, all the all the good stuff. And so that was the spot, like that was the hangout spot during, you know, uh senior year. Um and then did you drive this bus around the country or did you just stay in one spot basically and that was your like your apartment? It was it so I'd actually been parking it in the middle school parking lot cuz my house my parents house backs up to uh this middle school and Oh, okay. the same middle school I went to. So, I parked the bus there and when it wasn't painted, it was great cuz like, you know, no one would hassle us cuz it looked like a yellow school bus in the school parking lot. Like, it just sort of belonged there. Um, but then eventually like we we had to had to move it. Um there was a funny a funny story I have I guess is like one afternoon you know my buddy and I were hanging out um and I got a call and someone had left a voicemail and I'm like listening to the voicemail and it's like a a police officer had left this voicemail on accident like it was like some kind of butt dial almost cuz I'd left my phone number on the window of the bus. Um and so he he's calling he's oh yeah there's a bunch of freaks out here. we you got we're going to have to call the tow truck and we're going to get this bus out of here. And I was like, "Oh, like I got to I got to go." Um so I like run over to the middle school and they sit me down. And so there's like two school security officers and two uh Fairfax County police officers and they're um like telling me like, "Oh, we got a call. Someone reported seeing a naked person." And like cuz I had I'd come back from a camping trip and so like my shirt was dirty. I had like no shirt on at the time. And so like someone had made a call and was like, "Oh, there's like some creep in the middle school parking lot." And um and so I show up and I'm like, "No, no, no." Like, and they had s they sat me down. Uh they were like going to arrest me and be like, "Oh, you can't you can't like go on school property anymore, all this stuff." And so I was like, "Okay, like if if I'm getting banned from all school property, like do I still go to high school?" And they were like, "Well, what do you mean?" I was like, "Well, I go to I go to Edison High School like just down the road. like you can't ban me from all school property. And then they were like, "Oh, okay." And so eventually, and I was also when I was in middle school, I was like friends with the I guess principal because I ran like this 4H club. Um and so they ended up calling the middle school principal at the time and he was like, "Oh yeah, Tommy, he's he's cool. He can park the bus there." Let's go. Oh man. So the bus were you were you sleeping in it or were you still sleeping at your parents house? I was sleeping at my parents house at the time. It was like a party place. Yeah. Just sort of a kickback spot, you know, take it camping, that kind of thing. And then, you know, a year year or two goes by. I work a couple jobs, some sales jobs. I'm like, I don't, you know, I want to do something else. Um, I tried to launch a party bus business. So I figured like I have the bus. So I bought my friends half of the bus cuz we had split it. And so then uh I was going to launch this party bus business where I you know pick up business groups and take them to wineries or you know do whatever wedding parties but I was you know I was way too young to actually get insured. No one wanted to insure a 19-year-old with a party bus. Um I can't even drink a party bus around legally drink. Yeah. And I wasn't even old enough to get my you know like interstate CDL and so there was like that challenge too. And so then I was like, okay, can't get insured. I guess I'll just live in the bus, travel around and make Tik Tok videos for businesses. And that's when I got started into the, you know, Tik Tok space. And so the where were you where were you based? Where was the middle school? Was that California or somewhere else? Where? That was Virginia. Virginia. Okay. Yeah. So then you you headed out of Virginia and would you do like around the US or just the Northeast or what? I did I hit like 35 states and so I went north first did all the northeast then I went through Midwest then you know the western states. I ended up sort of crashlanding in LA where a buddy of mine from high school was living at the time and um he was pursuing a career as a a YouTuber. Now he actually is a YouTuber. He's got like one and a half million subscribers and he flies around the world making videos. And so I ended up sort of staying with him for like another 6 months and then I took the bus back out here um where I end up. So So as you're traveling on the bus, you're like I'm just trying to follow the mindset. You're like I got to make a little bit of money here. Um, so you're going online and you're you're posting videos about your bus lifestyle and like here I am in front of the Grand Canyon, here I am in front of uh whatever and then some people start seeing like, hey, will you make videos for us or did you go out and start like using that as like proof like, hey, I'm doing these videos. Would you like to advertise or like me do them for you? How'd that walk me through how that process worked? So I had some uh some business connections when I left. So, I was in um because I was doing this credit card processing sales job and I was in a a BNI, Business Networking International, if you're familiar with that. It's a lot of like home services and that kind of stuff. And um I had made sort of friends with this uh realtor and realtor coach and he you know he would get on calls and so it started as just like me chopping up his content and um you know making making videos out of that adding subtitles music whatever using Cap Cut or Premiere. I was Premiere Pro. Yeah on Premiere. And so I I started with him and he was paying me a,000 bucks a month and I was living in the bus and I would do that and then I would also make my own content. Um and you know about living in the bus and traveling and whatever. Um and then I didn't really get more once I got to LA then I was like okay let me settle down. Let me get some more clients figure out more on the business side. And I was still you know freelancer content creator. Um but that's when I got more involved with like product brands and that kind of stuff. And that was after after when you met your buddy and saw what he was doing, he kind of inspired you or help helped kind of sent you in the right direction. U give you a hand there. Yeah. He actually handed off one of my first like real clients. Um he was working for this brand called Passion Tree. Uh it's a hard selzer brand in California. I think a couple other states. Um and he had been making content for them, you know, not no like real results, but they were paying him like a good good little bit. and he wanted to focus on YouTube and so he was like you can take over like this this passion tree brand and so I started doing stuff for them you know got them 10 million views or something like that 10,000 followers and that was like one of my first real like oh like I'm actually I'm actually doing this like for brands so and so that are you still doing stuff for them today or is it moved on? No. So they they hired a different ginger. It's messed up. um they they had someone internal and start making content. Um and so when I when I really started and and I so I've generated like 50 million views for brands and that was all like me as a content creator and so I came into this like space from a marketing angle from like a content angle. How do we get product brands and that was all before Tik Tok shop had even rolled out. Um and so then you know as time went on it it sort of changed. So, I started just making content for brands. I had another uh account client called the new calendar. It was a calendar with nine days a week. Um yeah, it's like really my my uh every time I talk about it with my dad, he says it's like trying to sell a a car with square wheels because it's like it's this whole new system of like you divide time differently. 365 can only be divided by seven or it's a I think it's like I don't know I forget how the math works out but basically it's a calendar that divides time evenly is the idea and so I got them again like another maybe 20 million views um and like 20 nothing crazy in sales like 20,000 in sales I think um and so I work with them yeah the views probably more just curiosity people what the hell is this than they are going to be like, "Yep, I'm in. I believe there's a a 9 day." It was honestly like a a funny uh product for Tik Tok. I think like because it was such like a unique thing, it got a lot of engagement. It got a lot of comments, a lot of people being like, "Oh, that's so stupid. Like, no one's ever going to use a 9 day a week calendar." Like that kind of thing. Um which is Is that company still around or or are they Not really. And it was like it was so it was my mom's uh cousin's husband. And so I'd actually known about this calendar since I was like 15 years old or something. He'd been working on it. It was like his brainchild. And um but he I don't think he's done much with it recently. Um um that's great. That's great. It's great. Thinking about selling on Tic Tac Shop? Or maybe you are already in it and you're ready to scale. Unlock all of Helium 10's brand new Tik Tok shop tools with our diamond plan. Everything from bulk Amazon to Tik Tok listing conversions to instant Amazon MCF fulfillment. Best of all, you use the code TT10 to get 10% off Diamond for 6 months, even if you've used a coupon before. So, go ahead and upgrade and let Helium 10 do all the heavy lifting for you so you can focus on what really matters. For more info on our new Tik Tok shop offerings, visit h10.me/tik. I'll see you there. So, how does it work when you go to a brand when you were doing this? Were they would you just have a flat rate and say, "Hey, my rate's a,000 bucks a month or it's 500 bucks a video or it's x amount plus a percentage of sales." What was your what was your methodology back when you were doing that? So, were you just like, I don't care. I just need to I need some I need some uh mac and cheese and some peaceful for Yeah, that was that was more how it went. Um, usually it would be per video and so I'd like I was doing, you know, 20 videos a month for the new calendar and then I was doing, you know, I'd have I would and I would get deals on Upwork, too, because I was, you know, still freelancing. And so, I'd find someone and I'd be like, "Oh, yeah. I can make videos about your, you know, whatever product and um, you know, it'll be a hundred bucks a video. And and I sort of for for a little while I was like I gassed myself up because I um I got to the point where I was charging like between like 150 to 200 bucks a video, you know, and then and then I I found a client, the Infinity Hoop. Um, and so they reached out to me on uh Upwork. And this was this was like my first time working with like a big brand and they did uh I mean they're they're a seven figure brand uh actually eight figures. They they had done like $13 million in sales the first year that I worked with them and they wanted me to you know same thing making a bunch of content and I was doing like three videos three videos a day for them. Um and that's when I realized cuz like the the guy Leo Iano um he sort of showed me like what he had going on and like the like it that opened my eyes as to like what was possible with Tik Tok shop and like all the different lovers you know how important that affiliate piece is. Um, and then from there I was like, "Okay, let me find a way to provide more value than I am currently." So, were these videos playing on your channel or on his channel or on both? On his. Yeah. So, it was always brand content behind it. Okay. Yeah. Um, it was always brand content. I was never I've never actually been an affiliate. Um, like I don't have like a Tik Tok affiliate account. Uh, I was right from the get-go I was posting like creating content that for brand pages. Okay. Uh, and so you did that and then what what was different about the Tik Tok? So when you said it opened your eyes to Tik Tok shop, you didn't you didn't realize how much money could be made selling products off of the videos or what was it that uh opened your eyes there? Well, it was it was it was more like I didn't realize what the path forward looked like and how to how to really really utilize like the Tik Tok ecosystem, if that makes sense. Cuz I was coming from a spot of like, oh, like I know how to make videos and I can make viral videos. Like I know how to make content. Like let me just keep making content. Um, and I had to really learn that although content is king and you know content is currency, all that it's like that's not it's not just a matter of content. You you have to have affiliates. You should be running paid ads. There's a lot more that goes into strategy especially launching on Tik Tok shop than um than just content. You have to have a product that people want too. you look at the 9 day calendar uh or nine week a 9we day a week whatever it was called and um you said you got what 50 million views or 20 million views or whatever it was some crazy number of views and they sold $20,000 worth. Yeah. Uh so there's a that that's where a lot of it's not just about the virality. That's everybody's like I want to go viral. I go viral. Sometimes you don't want to go viral because actually going after these smaller niches where there's mark product market fit is actually better than something that goes viral and everybody's just commenting like this is crazy or look at his hair, he needs to get a haircut or whatever stupid stuff they're putting in there. Um, so that's that's an important aspect that I think a lot of sellers miss or or don't quite understand. They're always looking for the Kim Kardashians or the big the big people that can make it go viral and that's not necessarily what you want to do. Yeah. And it's not you have to have a holistic approach because there's something to be said about going viral. There's something to be said about having a million people view your product and then you know however many product page views you get and then like there is going viral is generally a good thing, right? And um but that is something that I had to learn where it's like that doesn't mean that you're just going to have an insane number of conversions. You have to have content for every sort of step of that funnel. Like you have to have videos that can can go viral, but you also have to have videos that are like going to perform in ads and are going to drive conversions and are tailored to actually, you know, convert at like the bottom of the funnel. Um, what do you see that makes helps make something go viral and all the viral videos that you've done? Is there is there a is it just pot luck and just throwing enough videos out there or is there something that you do that kind of juices the algorithm that gives it a much better chance of going viral or is it something that's offthe-wall where like people are commenting and because there's so much comments and engagement that helps it go what are what are you seeing that uh that helps helps with that? So, I mean, generally to to go viral, there's it's really like a a couple of key metrics, right? Number one, it's like the viewer retention. How much are people actually watching the video? Because if they're swiping away after like a hook, you know, if they if the hook doesn't catch them, they don't watch the video. Like, Tik Tok's not going to push it. For those listening that may not know what a hook is, I mean, I know, but just for those listening, what's a what's a hook or a way to set up a video? So, you have to you have to think when when you're thinking about content and you're thinking about Tik Toks and short form content especially, right? There's people are just scrolling and if they don't stop to watch your video, then your video won't get pushed out. So, they're just scrolling and they within the first 3 seconds they're deciding, am I going to keep watching this video or am I going to scroll to the next one? And if you don't give them a reason to keep watching within that first 3 seconds, they're probably going to scroll to the next one. And so that's I mean that's ultimately the first that's the first thing that you have to do is is what is your hook? What is like what reason are you giving the viewer to keep watching from there? You need to to deliver on that and continuously deliver on that. So you hook them, right? And when I'm talking about this in the context of a product, right, usually we want to go viral within a certain niche, right? It's like I'm looking to reach middle-aged men who have blood flow issues, whatever. And so like we're going to have a hook that drives to the emotionality of that and get someone to who is experiencing those problems to stop scrolling. Um, and then part of that is visual. So, like one of the affiliates that I have, um, you know, he's selling this this product. It's capsules, but like he starts the the video with like a syringe like in his butt and he's like got his, you know, half his pants pulled down because like that's going to stop someone and be like, "Oh, what? Like, what am I watching?" Right? It gives them some questions. Then from there, you're talking about like the sort of, you know, depending on how viral you're trying to go and what you're actually trying to do. Like I generally think it's it's good to go from there like that hook into the problem that the product is solving. So if it's blood flow like maybe you're talking about you know like ED not not performing in the bedroom or you're talking about you know like whatever whatever that problem is and then you just structure that to go right into the solution of those. So the way he structures that with a needle is that that stops them cuz people are like what the heck like you said and then then he takes that like yeah needles are gross you don't need to do that. I've got these capsules. You don't ever have to punch the needle. So, you segue or use that. That's what you're kind of talking about. We're just Yeah, exactly. So, you have it has to be um you have to have a video that makes sense from start to finish. And like you sort of have to hold the hand of the viewer from the beginning of the video to like really get them to understand like exactly what it is. And then also, it needs to be disruptive. It needs to be scroll stopping. It needs to be eye-catching. needs to be uh you know at times controversial. Um and you you know thing like if if you can if you have a video and there's just something to just generate comments that sparks it that that will really help because I've seen that a lot of the times that will correlate with a video going viral is people will start commenting and once people start commenting then you know there's more incentive for people to keep commenting because there's already engagement. people are replying to each other's messages. Um, and then from there it's like you've got sort of a a method to to go viral um just organically with that. Now, are you just doing Tik Tok? Are you also doing like uh Instagram reels and YouTube shorts and that kind of stuff or just primarily your focus is Tik Tok? So, my focus has always been Tik Tok. Um, and so now but now I'm doing full service management. So, I'm a I run a TSP, a Tik Tok shop partner agency. Um, so I went through Tik Tok's sort of course that that they have and I meet with Tik Tok twice a week and you know big group setting, big group calls. Um, and so a short or a uh TSP has sort of five core uh pillars, I guess. And so there's short video management, there's affiliate management, there's shop operations and management, uh then there's paid media and live video services. And so as a TSP, I provide services for for all of those pillars um for clients that are trying to launch on Tik Tok shop. So this is your own company or it's in conjunction with Tik Tok? This is my own company. Yeah. Okay. So the meetings with Tik Tok are just to keep you up to date on the latest stuff and where you can ask questions about stuff. But then you're you got your own team or you're jobbing out to people that are doing these five different core services. Exactly. Yeah. So the meetings with Tik Tok are sort of big group calls, educational calls. There's there's one meeting a week that we have that's um like people will come and and give presentations and they'll be you know presenting on the latest software to use or the you know different strategies that are working for them or fulfilled by Tik Tok or whatever it is and then um there's one call a week that's like office hours and so I can come with my questions and we can sort of all collaborate as a as an industry almost. And does Tik Tok pay you for this or this just a privilege uh to for you to help keep your your agency stuff on the cutting edge? Yeah, so uh Tik Tok does does it all. Um they it's just a privilege that that I get to to use that and it's all on Lark, too, if you're familiar with Lark. Um yeah, it's an app. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's but it's owned by Bite Dance. And so it's like um and so they want all the Tik Tok people in there using it and uh it's all sort of contained within that ecosystem. Yeah. It's like Alibaba has their own little app ecosystem too. The Chinese like to control everything. They don't want any outside uh stuff or someone's coming in scraping. They want to have that complete control. So yeah, that that that makes sense. So how when did the agency start? Um, basically the start of 2023. Okay. Um, and so doing about two and a half years. Yeah. And it, you know, it's it's my LLC. I've been doing it. I mean, cuz I've been in the business and it's been a a dream of mine for a long time. And then recently, and I'm still in that sort of building phase, but like it things have been coming together in a beautiful beautiful way. So, I'm excited to just keep keep going. So, you working mostly with smaller like like you were at an Amazon seller event. Um, was that your first event to go to or you've been to others or um were you there like just checking out the scene or hopefully recruiting clients or what was your goal there? Yeah, so I wasn't sure at first um it's sort of funny like the first event that I went to for cool content was um Expo West, the Natural Products Expo. Mhm. And um and I just happened to be to be sort of in the right place. I had gotten flown out for a YouTube video and I was hiking in Death Valley looking for a crashed airplane and I get back to the apartment in North Hollywood and I get a message in that lark group with like all the Tik Tok shop people and this was when I had like just become a uh an official TSP and they were like, "Oh, you know, if anyone's around California, you've got to go to the Natural Products Expo." And so I went there and then there was also an invite to the MDS um like event and because they had like a dinner out there at the same time. And so I went to all that. I met some of the people out there and then you know a month goes by and everyone's like oh you got to go out to Vegas like you got to go to you know Hit Prosper and Shop Talk and MDS. And I'm like well guess I got to do it. So I, you know, dropped everything and and flew out there and with no real goal other than like to just be there, I guess. And so I learned a lot, ton of brilliant people that I got connected with. I got connected with you and um and then I did, you know, a lot of people potential clients too that were that were out there. So So you went to both MDS and Prosper uh while you were out there. So that was your first exposure to like this Amazon kind of world really, right? So was it like overwhelming or was it like holy cow, there's a lot going on here? Um, it was overwhelming. It was uh there was I remember I think like once I got back I I even like made a LinkedIn post about this. I was like, cuz when I I guess flew out there, I was thinking I was sort of like had a like my my ego got crushed while I was out there cuz I was like thinking, okay, like I'm I know Tik Tok. I know Tik Tok shop. I know all this stuff. And then I'm meeting all these people who like they've just I mean part of it that they've been in the industry for longer and whatever, but like just brilliant, brilliant people. And I'm like, dang. Like I was low-key getting humbled. Um, and and so I was a little bit overwhelmed, especially like a couple days into it. And Vegas just takes everything out of you. I don't know like what it is, but like if you're just in Vegas for too long, then like it just sort of drains you. And so like by the second or third day, I was like, "Wow, I need to like put my head down and just like get to work, like use what I'm learning to to deliver." So, so you went to some of the talks like Michelle Barnham Smith or someone like that talking about Tik Tok and and stuff. Um um yeah, there's there's several of them up there. Um yeah, that's So what what coming back out of that, what did you take out of that or what have you or have you implemented anything from what you learned there or whether that be something actually for your clients or that just something your your way of thinking or something that what what was the end result? now that you're back and be able to digest what you what you experienced there. Yeah. Um I guess there's there are so many founders, so many brilliant people, so many people all all different levels. Part of it is connection. Like I think for a long time I had been sort of just like oh I can do this on my own. I can just I can make the videos go viral. I can scale my agency by myself. And it's like that's not that's not how that works. And I think I sort of had and I I sort of knew that, but then I also didn't really know like where to find people where to find other people who are in also running a Tik Tok shop agency or you know in the in the industry. And then I think that that was really one of like the biggest things that like it revealed to me was like no like there's people like you can you can talk to you can have conversations that will like change your life in you know a room and you can be in a room full of people that you can have those conversations with. Um, so that was really like the biggest thing for me and then also just sort of building these connections with with people and really like it's more than just business, you know, like it's it's real human connection and like so many people driven so many driven people trying to It's your type of people. It's people that understand and they get you. Yeah. They're doing they're doing similar things or they're in similar boats or they've been through some of the same ups and downs that you might have been through. Yeah. Um that that that's yeah that that's an important aspect of it. So what your clients now that what's the name of the agency? Cult content. Cold content. Cult like a cult following. Oh cult cult ct. Yeah. So why why that name? Uh does that does that name like some people are like what's this like some guy that's uh the next uh uh you know Kavorian or something or what's the next you know cult leader or or why the name cult content? So I've always been into like uh the esoteric you know type of stuff. Um I've I I think a you're on Tik Tok shop you need affiliates. You need your own cult essentially to succeed on Tik Tok. You need affiliates who are under dedicated to understanding your product, dedicated to posting, right? And then ultimately too, you could think of like your customers as an extension of your cult. Um, I think that it fits sort of the the Tik Tok uh social commerce world because you have to invest so much in like education and it's it's not about like it's not as transactional like if I was an Amazon agency, you know, and I was like, oh, like we're going to rank you like I would I would have a different name. But like to succeed on TikTok, you need it to be like authentic and you need people to really genuinely understand and and and share the same values as as like the product or like the brand like what that represents. Like you want people and affiliates to to really double down and like be passionate about that. Like you don't want affiliates who are just going to like, you know, unbox the product and be like, "Oh, like whatever." Like this, maybe this works, maybe it doesn't, and that's their video for you. You want people who are like in it. They're they're like a member of your cult. Yeah. Yeah. They're passionate and all working towards a cause or something. Yeah. Um, so, so are you still doing videos now for in cult content yourself or do you have like a team of people affiliates that are other creators that kind of you you send a lot of the jobs off to? Yeah. So, uh, generally the way that it works is a a client will come in and we set up a budget, you know, for them for affiliate retainers and that kind of thing. And then we set them up also with affiliate outreach tools. There's a whole bunch of stuff that goes into the strategy. Um, but no, I'm not I'm not the one making the videos. I'm more the one uh finding affiliates and so I I have a a cult content Discord server that's now got close to 100 members and you know, affiliates are in there and they'll have me like review their content and so I'll sort of coach up affiliates and that kind of thing. Um but generally it's more equipping brands with the tools and the resources to find affiliates and then you know like actually finding the affiliates and hiring them to create content. Now you finding them through software tools or just personal relationships and then referring each other cuz that's there's I think I saw something there's like 1.5 million people in the United States trying to make a living u being a creator right now. It's every young kid doesn't want to be a doctor or a fireman or astronaut anymore. They want to be a a creator. And most of them are not making much money. I mean, you do have the ones that do very well, but the vast majority, something like 98% make less than 10 grand a year off of it. So, and it's so competitive. You you go on to Tik Tok shop into their portal and it's like people are getting sometimes hundreds if not thousands of emails a day of people reaching out to them. You got agencies, you got all these different tools and all these companies have propped up to help uh place people. It's it's both compet it's competitive and there's a lot of noise. So, how do you how do you stand out? How do you recruit or what do you do to to get these hundred plus people that are on the Discord? I'm assuming you probably have a few more than that that just aren't on the Discord. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've got thousands. Generally, if you want engagement, what I've seen works is is offering some kind some kind of uh higher incentive, whether that's uh basically saying, "Hey, and we also have the opportunity to earn a retainer or a pay-per-view deal. Um, join this Discord and and you know, let's get to work." That kind of thing. um the the way that I see affiliates and I guess like this whole sort of ecosystem, right? Because it is incredibly competitive and as an agency, you have to you have to balance a lot, right? You have to balance the client and they're trying to obviously sell as much product for the lowest, you know, cost to acquire that that business. And um then you've got the affiliates, right? And you even have the affiliates that are having their issues where a lot of them maybe they're new, they just don't know how how the game works and how much what type of content they should be making and that kind of thing. You've got people who are more established, but they still have super fluctuating uh you know, income. And so, cuz as an affiliate, you might make, you know, $15,000 one month and $2,000 the next or, you know, there's it's not a stable stable income. And so, you have to really try to understand the goals of each affiliate. And I like to meet with meet with them, talk face to face, and be like, "Hey, like what are you know, what are you really trying to do? What are your goals? How can I help you?" And if the client has budget for uh retainers and I think that an affiliate is a is a good fit and they're going to do a good job, make good content, especially if they have sort of a proven track record of driving sales. And that's one way that, you know, I can help them out. And um so it's really just sort of like navigating all these all these different relationships with affiliates and and clients and figuring figuring out a way to make it work for everyone. How do you screen them? because a lot of people you I can send my products to to anybody and anybody can almost create a video. I mean some people are better at editing or lighting or whatever. Um but a lot of times it it it takes a salesman. I mean you got to actually know sales and marketing and and how to trigger people into buying. I if you got a hot trending product, anybody can almost sell that. If I if I'm trying to sell something that's maybe not so hot and trending but convince people to do it, what what do you look for in in these creators that actually shows you that they they can sell? Is it a track record on Kalo data where uh but that that means you're eliminating the new people that might actually be good or they don't get a chance or how do you how do you filter them like all right you look like you're good on camera and you can actually sell. Right. So, the the two main things that you look at, and this is partially just because that's what this is what Tik Tok presents to you, right? They before a product sample goes out, unless it's set to auto approve, you have to approve the product samples. And so, you're looking at the um post rate and you're looking at the uh gross metric uh or gross merchandise value, the GMV. Um, and so if an affiliate has over $1,000 in GMV, you know, they're probably going to be like, "Okay, like maybe I can actually take this a little bit more seriously opposed to someone who has no no GMV." They might just be in it for the product sample. Obviously, someone with, you know, $80,000 in GMV over the last 30 days, you you might have to, you know, pay some money as well to get the content going. But that's that's really your best bet is like, okay, have you generated revenue before. Um, there are affiliates, you know, who don't have as much GMV, but you meet with them and you you get a feel for, honestly, it's sort of like an intellect thing, right, where it's like, okay, you know how to make content. You're coachable. like I can tell that you're you you match the ICP of the of what the client's looking for as a in a customer. So yeah, there's there's definitely a lot that you can look for in an affiliate um to to make it work. But ultimately too, it just comes back to the numbers. Like we're going to pay the affiliates who make us the most money and we're, you know, going to try to train anyone and get them to be become that affiliate as well because they have to have that buy in. What do you do to set expectations of of the client? Sometimes the clients will come in and they're like they want a magic pill. They want like, "Oh, make make this every video should go viral. Every video should make me x amount of money." What do you do to set the expectations on on clients? Yeah. So, I have a um a profitability calculator that I use. Um and like generally too there's Tik Tok is an investment, right? you're you're buying into the platform. You're buying into like the whole ecosystem. And you have to understand that it is a long-term game because you're like there's so much top offunnel awareness that comes with Tik Tok as a platform. Um, and it is expensive. And so I do have to set that expectation. Um, as well as like there's there's certain clients that it just wouldn't be good for, right? Like if you don't have the the finances to really invest in TikTok and to make it work, then don't, you know, don't do it. Um but generally to like you have to like explain to them in some way that there is a level of like randomness to this where you in some ways are waiting for a video to to go viral or waiting for you know some ads to start converting to the point where they can scale. Um, and there's we can put all of the strategy behind it and we can figure out so much of like what needs to be done to like make that happen, but at a at a certain point we are still just waiting for it to happen and then once it goes, you know, having all the systems in place to just keep it going. Um, that's sort of the the methodology there. But in terms of managing expectations, it's just sort of like you got to keep it real, you know? You got to like I don't want I don't want anyone to think that like, oh, I'm going to sign up with cool content and first month I'm going to make $50,000 cuz that's just unless unless we're doing a lot, then we're not we're not pulling those kind of numbers right out the gate, you know? So, what makes cult cult content better than somebody else? If I'm looking for someone to help me out, I'm a seller listening to this on on on AM podcast and I'm like, "Yeah, I want to get in this TikTok, but you know, I don't have time or I don't want to mess with it." Just let someone do it. Why What should they consider you guys over uh about two million other possibilities out there? I'm exaggerating. There's not two million, but a lot of other possibilities. Yeah. So, I think um a lot of it a lot of it comes down to just like I I eat, sleep, and breathe TikTok. And I know a lot of people do that, but like I also I'm very transparent. Like I will always sort of say how it is with a client. I'll always be as as clear as possible. I'll always like if if it's not a right fit, I'll I'll let them know. Like I think um the what makes cult content different is just that part of it is just my my experience and like I've been breathing this like it has been my life for like so uh for a while and it's like honestly I've built my brain to make it uh you know make make cult content like be what it is and um I'm just very committed to it working for my clients as well. Like there's not a I like all of my clients I consider almost like friends. Sort of like getting back to what we were saying about how going out to like prosper you've got like like there's and MDS you you form this connection and I'm big on that. Like I'm big on fulfilling the mission of my clients. Like if you if you've got a supplement that you think really really helps people and you're passionate about that then like when you work with cult content your mission becomes our mission and like we like like that's why that's why I'm doing like that's why we're we're in it. You know what's your creative process like? So I'm I'm a client with a supplement. I come to you and say, "Hey, um I want you I want you to take care of this for me, Tommy. Um, here's my here's my creatin powder. Um, what do you what do you do next? So, I mean, first we we have to find the differentiators of the product between like what it, you know, there's a million other creatine products out there. So, like what is it about this creatine that is actually, you know, going to get people to buy and like who is the who is the client looking for? like some clients they know exactly who their core customer is. Um, and they can share that with me and that's always nice, but if not, like that's sort of what I'm going to be thinking about is like who is who is it that like this is actually solving problems for and how do we reach that person? Because if you're not if you're not doing that as like your first step, then everything else can just be sort of pointless. Um, and so that's sort of like where that that first step comes in. And then from there it's like it becomes about, you know, content and and angles and hooks. Um, and I'm not like as involved in in making the videos anymore. And a lot of it is going to be like honestly if it's for like a brand new client and I'm trying to get them launched as as fast as possible, I'll use chat GPT for scripting and just finding some of that like those angles that are going to work. Um, and then from there I take that and we we create a whole bunch of scripts and we distribute those to affiliates and you know put those in a in a system where they can be used by affiliates so that they can leverage that content or that those scripts and and those angles. Um, how much should someone be willing to spend? Uh, like say it's a it's not a big company. They and they're like, "I want to try this out and I just want to see, you know, if my product fits on the TikTok and if we can make this work. Is this a couple thousand bucks? Is it 5,000 bucks by the time you pay your agency's fees, the affiliates, um any kind of creative stuff that's got to be created? And maybe even put a little bit of advertising behind the ones that work. what what am I looking at to to kind do a little solid little test uh on not not on a big budget, right? Generally, uh you you'd be looking at spending like 10 10 grand a month after everything said and done. Product samples, shipping, uh affiliate retainers. I like to do a product launch uh campaign as well. So, I'll use a platform like Celico or if a client has uh like a control over their distribution, then I I'll like to literally place the orders, the initial orders. So, that cuz that's one of the first things that a a customer or an affiliate sees with a product is how many units have been sold. Um, so there's a lot that goes into the launch and generally you're looking at spending anywhere between like seven to 10 grand a month after all is said and done. And then that includes the cost of the product samples that you're giving out and the shipping and and everything. Yeah. And that includes your agency's fees because you you I'm basically if I'm the client, I'm paying you, then you're paying the affiliates, their commission. You're negotiating the commissions with the affiliates and you're taking a little Scooby snack off the top or however that works, right? Yeah, we charge an agency fee and so then um we charge an agency and and a percentage typically um and then we but we have a budget for affiliate retainers. And so we'll go through that with a client and be like, "This is what we're going to set. We're going to spend $2,000 or whatever it is on affiliate budgets or affiliate retainers or paper video deals. uh performance max or whatever do they call it or spark ad the GMV max. Yeah. So that's um performance max GMV Max. Um yeah. So the that wouldn't include GMV Max and generally too like I don't like to really start ads like if someone wasn't was was just launching like we wouldn't be running ads month one. Um so we're looking more like at running ads once once we've already got a good base of content. you get some yeah something proven. Yeah. What does Celico do in that process for you? So, Celico is a platform that I use to um they have a Tik Tok shop launchpad and essentially what you can do is you can set it up so that uh they have uh you know a list of however I think like several hundred thousand customers who will go to your Tik Tok shop and they they'll either click on a link that we provide that's like from an affiliate video or you could do it like right from the shop page. They'll order the product through Tik Tok shop and then 40 to 60% of them will leave a review. So Celico facilitates Tik Tok on Tik Tok shop. Yeah. So Celico facilitates that interaction with however many orders you want to go through. Um and so what that does is you've got now, you know, 50 people order the product. some of that money that you invested obviously will circle back, you know, through um and you've got people leaving leaving leaving reviews. It's a it's something to get uh traction started on Tik Tok shop. Otherwise, basically a trust. So when someone sees your affiliates video, they go to the Tik Tok shop to buy the product, there's not zero reviews there. There's like Exactly. Is there certain numbers that are magic? like on Amazon, uh, statistically people say the magic number is 21. Once you get 21 reviews, people will start believing um that that it's legit. You know, if there's three there and they're all five star, people are like, "Yeah, it's not enough. Not enough sample size, not enough people." Is there a number on TikTok where you see like um you need to get you recommend your clients get 20 or 30 or 50 or some number to to really help on the conversions? Um, I I haven't heard a number for the um reviews, but generally I've heard like $10,000 a month in sales is when people will start to see traction, like things start moving a little bit easier. Um, so I wonder like so how how does a new person break in on TikTok if someone has zero GMV? Let's say me, I'm not selling on Tik Tok. Let's say all of a sudden I want to be a affiliate on Tik Tok. Like, hey, I can sell some stuff on Tik Tok. I've done this for a little bit. I'm an old guy. I know what to do. I've been around the block. I want to get paid. I go up there and I put my listing up on or register on TikTok and all this stuff. I have zero GM GMV. You said it's a gut feeling. You if I get on the phone with you, like, all right, I'm going to give this guy a chance. But a lot of people don't even do that. They they just filter them out. So, those people, what do they do to get a start? What do they do? they go to Celico and become a buyer so that they actually through their own link or something and like now I got a little bit of GMV or is there a system or someone that's helping these new people kind of get their foot in the door that's so are you talking about for um as an affiliate or do you mean like as someone launching a brand both I mean I guess it goes both ways because the affiliates also don't want to work with a brand that has zero GMV u and the the brands don't want to work with someone affiliate that has zero. So it goes both ways. So how do you get that initial uh wheel pumping uh so people can get going? Yeah. So that's I mean that's where the that platform Celico comes in, right? Where it's like you have to you have to have some some kind of group buy in and show like okay there's there's traction behind this product. both an affiliate needs to see that in order to for them to want to work with the product and the customer needs to see that too in order to like trust it and make that purchase. Um, so if you're not going to use Celico, the other I guess method would be to literally place the order yourself and then have your distributor send only one product. I've like I don't know how long this method will work for cuz I I think I mean from what I've heard like no one's gotten slapped for this. Um, I know that this was a thing that was going on on Amazon for a while and then I guess they had to uh sort of regulate that. Um, but you can literally just order 100 units on Tik Tok shop and then have your distributor only ship one product and then from there at least you've got 100 units sold showing up. Um, and that's sort of a place to start. Um, so basically the bottom line is people are gaming a little bit to get going just like they used to do. I mean, it's it's common in every industry. I mean, Airbnb when they first launched, they gained the the Reddit system and the referral system. I mean, everybody it's kind of a a known thing. Amazon, you're right. Amazon cracked down on it. Back when I back in 16, 2016, when you were still in middle school, I guess, um, you could actually launch on you could get reviews on Amazon. You could give away a product for free and it was permissible for the person to come and leave the review as long as they put a disclaimer that said uh I received this product in exchange for my honest opinion or something like that. Yeah, that became an issue and Amazon banned that in November of 2016 or October, sorry, October of 2016. And then a whole another industry popped up of um search find by where you would pay agencies. They they would see which keywords you need to rank on. They had an audience of people. You would then go and pay them say $15. If it was a supplement, it could be 20 bucks. $20 per buy. That was the agency's fee. And then they would get their buyers to go in, search for a certain keyword, scroll up and down, click around a little bit, and then go buy your product off of that keyword. So it got attributed. And then you had to pay the agency for that, too. So, if it's a $30 product, you're giving $45 for every supplement bottle sold to the agency. Now, you're getting some of that back. Just like you said, it circles back through and you get, you know, after Amazon's fees, you're going to get half or more of that back, like 20, 25 bucks of that back. So, it's still costing you $30 or something per sale. And that's how people were ranking. And then Amazon cracked down on that. And then it became a search find buy and a rebate thing. And that's where the guys at MDS, one of their co-founders at MDS had a a company called Rebate Key. And so they're like, "Well, rebates have been legal since the dawn of commerce. So if you buy something, I can give you a rebate. Um, we'll make it official. We're not just Amazon. We're on Walmart and everywhere else." And that was the way for a while. And then Amazon cracked down on that. Uh, and now there's still some now now the methodology on Amazon primarily is uh product feedback. So instead of getting this product in exchange for a review or getting this product and just go search on a keyword, they actually want you to actually get the product, buy the product, actually then give critical uh not on Amazon but like to the to the service provider. You give critical advice and so you say, "Oh yeah, I think uh you know this is uh needs to adjust here or I didn't like this part of it or whatever." you give this like you shoot a video of you scrolling around the screen looking at the listing and all this kind of stuff and so they're they're couching it as market market research and so it's just it's you know you're just putting lipstick on a pig and just changing the way but it's the same thing so that's why I was curious about so you're saying that that same kind of uh a similar type of thing is happening on Tik Tok as well. Absolutely. Yeah. which would Yeah. And it sounds like it sounds like Tik Tok's a little bit more receptive to it. Yeah. Right now, because a lot of times when when when uh marketplaces are newer, they're a little more forgiving because they know they need to get the the flywheel going. So, Amazon kind of looked the other way for the first few years and then the FTC some story came out and they're like, "Oh, we got to we're a public company. We got to behave a little bit more." And so, they they tighten it and then they keep tightening it a little bit as they don't need that anymore. They got enough people in the system. So that's probably Tik Tok is probably u they're probably they they know what's happening uh and they may at some point crack down, but right now they're like, you know what, it's it's helping get the ball going. So we're we're cool with it as long as it doesn't get out of hand. Yeah. And I think too, you know, it's an interesting thing too cuz it's like it has to do partially with the buyer's trust of the platform where like they're not they're not really Tik Tok shop is still new and some people they're fine making those purchases. A lot of people are a little bit more hesitant, especially when a product Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And so especially when a product has no sales, they're going to be like, uh, no thanks. And so, and the fact that that it's just so visible, like it's right there on the product page, you know, when you look at a product on Tik Tok shop and so that's something that I think is, you know, it's important to do. And like for a while I I underestimated the importance of it. And I was like, "Oh, well, like, you know, if we get a enough of affiliates and we get them making content, you know, surely some of them are going to drive a bunch of sales and stuff, but like it'll be so much easier for the affiliates to get sales if you've already got sales." Um, and if there's already traction there. So, something to spark it definitely definitely really helps. Yeah, I know. I don't know if most of your clients also have a presence on Amazon. And I know you have to be careful and like promoting go buy this on Amazon and and Tik Tok stuff. There's certain things you can't can't do, but a lot of them are just going to go naturally search for the brand on on Amazon. And I know several brands that say they do okay on Tik Tok shop and they get a lot of views, but as soon as they start running their Tik Tok uh videos or something goes viral, they see a huge uptick on Amazon. I think there's been some studies that say about 70 60 to 70% of the sales that you make off of a Tik Tok campaign are actually not going to come on Tik Tok shop. They're going to come on Amazon for that exact reason you said the trust issue. Uh and and people know that if I buy it on Amazon, my credit card's already there. Uh I don't have to it's easy to return and I can depend on it showing up in a day or two. You get your free shipping. Yeah. You get your free shipping. You get all Yeah. But on Tik Tok shop, the beauty is you can just I I've bought some things on Tik Tok shop. As you're scrolling, something comes across that's of interest to you. You're like, you like it, you hit a couple buttons uh and boom, uh it's it's on its way to you and you're back to scrolling instantly. Yeah, it's very uh very insular there. So, you're not like having to bounce off and like where was I in the scroller? You get uh you know, you get distracted. It's like boom boom boom close that window, you're back right where you were and you keep keep scrolling on. Uh and uh that that's the beauty of social uh social shopping. Yeah. I mean it's amazing like how well contained it is within the platform and and I guess to your point too where it's like you have so much of this like the halo effect and people going to Amazon to to make that purchase. Um, and so then it's like you're the investment that you're making into Tik Tok. And that's why I talk about like top offunnel awareness like and it's so important because there's no other platform that you can do this with, right? Where you can invest in the platform and have it pay back not just instant like like through Tik Tok shop but then also through Amazon and through your site. Like there's and to to the scale that you can do it with Tik Tok shop like you can you can have a video about your product that's just talking about how it solves a problem go viral reach millions of people and inform millions of people who have now like they've entered the top of your funnel right you those impressions will convert it might take a couple weeks it might you know they they're only x amount are going to click on the product page and get retargeted and whatever. But like you have this massive opportunity for just huge top offunnel awareness and then you know from there like if you if you're set up on Amazon good like cuz you're going to see that that increase. So lots of opportunity out there man. You're in the right place at the right time. Uh from from pallets to buses uh to you still have the bus? I do still have the bus. Yeah, you still have All right. That's awesome, man. You have to do the Tik Tok bus tour at some point. Exactly. Exactly. It's on It's on my page somewhere. Take to get a sponsor to pay for a cross country Tik Tok tour with affiliates. Sounds great to me. Passing out samples uh all along the way and hosting little gettogethers for uh the cult all all along little cult parties uh all the along Route 66 or something like that. That would be uh that would be cool. Yeah, that sounds like a fun time. Well, Tommy, if if people want to reach out to cult uh content or to follow you or get in touch with you or something, how would they go about doing that? Yeah, so uh on socials, if you just look up Tommy Lynch, look for the ginger, I should be there. Um otherwise, email me, Tommycontent.cc. Um check out my website, colcontent.cc, and yeah, that that's probably the best way to do it. LinkedIn, too. Always LinkedIn for business. That's right. Well, Tommy, I really appreciate you coming on today. This is uh this has been great. Thanks. Uh thanks for joining. Thank you. It's like your third podcast that you've done. How was it, dude? This was pretty good. This was my favorite one so far. You know, to get into it. All right. It's going to be your favorite one of all time. You're going to do like a hundred more as you become more popular and more famous. Uh and you're just going that AM PM one. That was like, man, that was cool. Uh appreciate you coming on, man. Thank you, Kevin. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Social commerce is playing a bigger and bigger role in selling online. As you can see, in this world of AI and marketplaces, social commerce is is an important element that you need to have in your mix. If you're selling products, whether that's on Amazon or Walmart or your own shop or wherever it may be, you know, you don't have to be on on Amazon or Walmart to do well on Tik Tok shop. We just had on the Marketing Misfits podcast Tammy Evvelski. She's doing 21 plus million a year on Tik Tok shop with zero presence on Amazon. Uh so if you want a a different side of things, go check out that podcast as well and I think you'll learn something. You can always learn something too in the billiondollar sellers newsletter. Billiondollscellers.com is the the website to actually go to. It's free every Monday and Thursday. You know what else is free is the amm podcast. We'll be back again next Thursday with another awesome episode. So, if you like this episode, feel free to uh like it to uh subscribe to the channel, whether it's Apple Podcast or Spotify or you're watching this on YouTube, and forward this to a friend if you think they'll get some value from it. Otherwise, I will see you again next week right here.