#459 - Why Being a Brand Matters More Than Ever in E-Commerce with Cara Sayer

Episode 459 of the AMM podcast. This week I'm speaking with Cara Sire. Cara has been selling online since 2000 since she invented her product in 2009. She's been on Amazon over 10 years. But the key thing here is she's not an Amazon seller. She's a brand owner. And that's what we're going to talk about the importance of brand and how to differentiate between being just a seller and being a brand. Enjoy this episode with Cara. Welcome to the AM PM podcast. Welcome to the AM PM podcast where we explore opportunities in e-commerce. We dream big and we discover what's working right now. Plus, plus this is the podcast for money never sleeps. Working around the clock in the AM and the PM. Are you ready for today's episode? I said, are you you ready? Ready. Let's do this. Let's do this. Here's your host, Kevin King. Kevin King. [Music] Look what I got on the AM podcast today. I got a special one for you. I got the beautiful Carara Ser. How you doing, Cara? Yeah, really, really good. Um, busy as ever, flying around, you know, um, going to some useful conferences, meeting useful people, um, having interesting conversations, learning about things every day. Every day is a school day. So, um, yeah. Um, my daughter's just passed her driving test, which is very scary to think that she's now on the roads. Um, haven't actually yet had a a li, in fact, this is something I need to bring up with her. I haven't actually had a useful lift from her yet. So, you know, haven't been to a restaurant or bar or something and then got to pick me up, which is what all my friends children do, but she's just gay gallivanting around in her car and and mommy's just sitting at home crying quietly. And I thought I thought today's age I know a lot of kids when they I don't know what's the legal age in uh the UK. UK, you can uh you get your driver's license at 17. Um I say at 16 in most of the US. And I know I know several people that se several of my friends that have uh young uh kids and when they turn 16, a lot of them now don't even want to drive. They're like, "What's the point? I I got Uber and Lyft and or my buddies got a car." I I remember when I when I when I turned 16, I was first one in line at 7 a.m. in the morning when the the driving license office opened to take the test. Absolutely. Well, I mean, to be fair, she drives herself to school. She's got a job in a restaurant, so she drives herself there. She trains um what's it called? Um coaches other children in cricket. Um so she's got quite a busy little life and it's it's great actually. I don't have to drive her around anymore. So mom's taxi has been retired. Oh, that that but you know that between 16 18 is the most accidentrone time of a driver's life. Well, she'll probably not really appreciate me saying this, but she has already had um a slight prank and um and uh she's also had a speeding ticket, which luckily they've um let her off as such, so she has to do a speed awareness. So, she's not done too badly considering she's only 17 and passed her driving test about five weeks ago. Having said that, uh sometimes I feel like these lessons are put upon you to learn. So, she's now like, I will never speak again and try and get into a parking space that I can't easily get into again. And I'm like, "Good." Cuz that's actually a very important life lesson. That is they got they got to learn it. You got to let them go and they got to learn it and just pray that they stay safe. She's actually quite good little driver actually. Even people who haven't seen a driver before like, "Oh, she's, you know, she's quite confident and, you know, not a scary driver." I think, if I'm honest, boys are worse than girls as a general rule. I think so, too. But I mean, I think you're a pretty good little driver. You're driving a very successful little Amazon business there. uh that into that that you've been that you've been doing for quite some time. Uh I mean I I know I know the general story a little bit but maybe for the audience you can tell them like a how long you've been uh playing this game. So um as I think you know as well I don't actually consider myself to be an Amazon seller. Um so um I actually consider myself which is actually true uh to be a brand and Amazon is my most uh large and successful sales channel. Um but I actually started 15 years ago now. Um in 2010 I launched. So I started my um idea process around 2008. So that was when Holly was just around a year old, something like that. And um I'd had an idea for a product that would help her sleep when we were out and about with a stroller. Um would also keep her protected from the sun, the insects, um wind, chill, etc. And I looked around and I couldn't find a product that did that. And so I I don't even to be honest to this day I still don't really know why I decided to do it. Um I I think I'm a problem solver. I like if you give me a problem and first thing I'm like, "Oh, how do I solve that?" You know, that's great. Um and um so I decided to start inventing something and I created something that I now I mean I found the prototype the other day and it's completely useless. Um but I kind of came up with a concept, started working on it, started talking to people. Remember this is like before well before Instagram, Facebook was there but not really very big. Um Twitter had only just launched at the end of 2009. Um, and um, so I came up with the concept of a basically a blackout blind and shade uh, for the stroller. And uh, I went to find I found a manufacturer. Again, remember this is all pre nowadays. It's all much easier to access. Um, how do you find a manufacturer? How do you find someone in China? Um, or anywhere really. Um, and I did all of it through contacts. So, I used to work in for a publishing house and uh we used to put things called cover mounts on the front of a magazine, which is all the free gifts you get, like you know, you'll get like a free um makeup bag or a free shaving kit or whatever it might be. And those are called cover mounts. And I worked for a baby magazine. And I said, well, who's doing the cover mounts for them? Because I knew when I worked there uh that they had to be safety tested. And I've always been obsessed with safety and producing something for my own baby um is one thing, but I wanted to make sure my products were super safe. Got given the details of someone who I still work with now. So 15 years on, I'm still working with the same manufacturer um who basically produces her real business. I say is producing uh promotional gifts uh for like brands like Zero and Zoom and Facebook and all that sort of thing. Uh Pelaton was one. Um and then she and she was a mother of four. So I went to meet her, told her what my idea was and she was like that's genius, you know, really good idea. Um and I started working on prototypes with her and the factory etc. and um got to a point where I was like, "Okay, what am I going to do with this and there was a trade show um in the US you've got the ABC kids and in the UK we had one called um BPA which is no longer happens, but they had an innovation area um which was a slightly cheaper area for new young brands to go in and show their stuff. So I went in um thinking well worst case scenario people just laugh me out of town, you know, that's not a problem." But I also would get feedback. I wasn't even really looking to sell actually. I was just looking to get feedback about whether the concept was a good one. Um and then I actually had an order placed by one of the larger uh retail chains in the UK um independent retail chains which called Jojo Mambe and they I think they've now recently not that long ago expanded into the US market um and they placed an order on the spot and I was like excuse my friends what do I do now? Um do you even have a price at that point or do you have to just make up a price? I was still working out my pricing. So um at the time uh what I mean that was one of the reasons it was great going to that show because I still used the pricing model from then that I used that I created then I'm still using it now um and um so I sort of spoke to a few people and actually what I found out was there was a product that was I say similar it wasn't really similar but it had a similar concept that literally launched a couple of weeks before I went to the show and before I went to the show I was like oh what's the point you know why am I bothering you know there's another product out there that's going to do a similar thing um and they've obviously got more contacts and all the rest of it they're you know and um anyway their product wasn't as actually if I'm honest as good as mine. And so lots of people were like, "Well, actually, yours is a lot better. It's better quality. It's better this, it's better that you should charge more." So I was like, "Okay." So I came up with my final price. Um, and um, and then just told the retailer, "This is the price, the RRP, uh, the, you know, manufacturer's price, and this is the price you'll be buying it from." Um, and then I went into full scale production, which was, so the show was in the October, so Christmas that year was fun. I was like literally pulling my hair out, you know, all sorts of things, like rushing everything through. And then the Icelandic and we know about Iceland and volcanoes um from our recent trip uh to BDSS um and the the volcano exploded in 2010 which then shut all the airways down for quite a long time and um so I had ended up flying product in because it was selling so fast I I couldn't I needed to get stock in um so that cost me an absolute fortune um even in those days and I I basically the amount of stock that I'd worked on for the first year I sold I think in about seven months and this was coming from China. Yeah, it was coming from China. Wow. And so then this big retailer took it. Then did you expand out other retailers start come knocking and saying, "Hey, uh, we want it too." Yeah. So I'd made a few other contacts with um other retailers at the show and also just afterwards I that was another thing that was useful. Um, you know, making contact with other brands and they had contacts at other retailers. So I started stalking everyone. Um, and I got into other retailers. I also picked up my first UK distributor there as well. So they then got me into all of the big boys. So I went into like Tesco and Boots, like the equivalent of like Target and Walmart and you know all of those big like retailers. Um and so basically my product was in like every single major UK retailer in the country within about the first sort of nine months of launch. Um and um I mean I think it was on sale on I think it's been on sale via the distributor. They were selling it on Amazon via vendor central and then I think they then also sold um to smaller resellers as well. So there were quite a lot of people selling it right from the go you know from the get-go. So, did you do use you worked for a baby magazine? Did they give you some press or they do anything for in that? Yeah. Yeah, I actually won an award from them um I think before launching pretty much which was good. And uh I also got a quote from their um editor of like who looked after product recommendations and she did a quote saying it's like a really fantastic idea and every parent needs one sort of thing. So yeah, I did I maximize. So my background is PR and marketing uh before I had Holly. So I actually was on the team that launched Amazon in the UK when it was a book warehouse in Slow back in 2000. UK as well. Um and on the PR you're on the PR team, not Yeah. Work for an agency that was part of the launch um launch uh strategy and we la I launched um online food shopping in the UK with Tesco which one of the big um grocery stores. Um so you know my background's always been more PR marketing which is why I always sort of laugh really because you know Amazon for me is an absolute pain. excuse my French because it is so irritating and so frustrating when there's a problem. It always seems to get exemplified by about a thousandfold. Um, and you know, it can be really really challenging. Um, but I don't really think about it that much if I'm honest in my day-to-day business. You know, it's just somewhere where I know my customers buy my product. So, when what year did you actually jump to start selling on Amazon? And so you said your distributor was doing it wholesale into Amazon, but then what year did you actually I also had I also had like a US distributor, New Zealand distributor, Australia distributor, UAE distributor. I had mult you know multiple distributors etc. Um the crunch point was getting divorced uh which is always a fun time in life. And that's always a blast done that too. We have that in common. Yeah, we do. Um but my so basically I was in a position where I had to really look at the numbers of the business and so whilst it looked great from the outside there was a lot of volume uh the actual net margin was quite low um because obviously when you sell to a distributor you've got to sell to a distributor at a price where you then have they've got to be able to make um money and sell to the retailer and the retailers sometimes want you know one of them in the UK wants 60% margin so you've got to factor that in. So I was and also the other thing is there's a hu there's a lot of risk doing that as well in terms of having to produce like volume of stock. So I would have to like Tesco would say we want 4,000 units. So I'd have to produce that 4,000 units. Whether they bought them or not was neither here nor there. Um and I mean usually they did and sometimes in fact they would complain because I' I'd run out of stock and I'd be like well you told me you wanted 4,000. I've given you 4,000. Like literally what else do you want me to do? Um so when I was getting divorced I really really looked at the numbers and I was like do you know what? I need to take the middleman out of this because I need to be selling more direct. And then I saw on Facebook and and you'll obviously know the reality of this and the fact that these are obviously true stories is the fact you can sit on a beach all day and just hear uh the tick tick kaching into your Amazon account. I know. Ain't it ain't it great? Is it great? I love it. I love it. So you just sit there drinking cocktails with your sunnies on on a beach lounger products on Amazon and I thought, "Wow, I like I want me some of that. Thank you very much." So toes toes in the sand and uh just with a nice drink in your in your hand. Exactly. Exactly. So, I thought, yes, I'll have me some of that. Thank you very much. Um, but then, um, I went to a conference, which I have to say, I look back on now, I mean, oh my god, it was a dreadful conference. It had it had pe it was a real I can't even remember the name of the people who did it. Um, but like they did everything like I hate in some conferences, you know, they had people up on the stage where, you know, my mom was dying of cancer and my I mean like seriously hardcore. I was like, oh god. And then they did the whole, you know, run to the front of the stage. I'm like, stop that. I don't run. Thank you. Um, so there was all of this rubbish going on. But what it did make me realize is that there are people out there who were selling at the time a lot of garlic crushers and posture, you know, adjusters and all that. And they were making a lot of money. And I thought, well, if they're selling fairly boring products really and making a lot of money, I must be able to do better selling my product, which has actually got some real USPs, etc., and you know, some some extra source behind it. So one of the things I had to do was um take a reality pill um which is sometimes I think when you are more of a brand you get a bit like oh I am a brand bloody blue but you have to forget all that and go back to what what is your basic crunch point product you know so it's great if people are looking for the brand but what are they looking for if they if you're not if they don't know about you so um for example my products have always been number one in fact I don't think I've ever lost number one position for more than a few days and that's usually to a rain cover in my category in 15 years um and um you know in in that category. People are looking for a pram sun shade. Now, I actually invented the product primarily to help my daughter sleep and and most people or many people buy it for sleep as well. But it's interesting, there isn't a a sleep shade category on Amazon, so you have to go where the money is basically. Um, and if I'm honest, like Amazon pretty much just told me that's where your category, you know, your product is going to be. Um, and I think it was also just sort of taking out some of the the rubbish that was probably in the titles. I mean, what I actually ended up having to do was uh first of all, I had to take a quite a big uh pill to swallow was I basically had to not sell to anyone who could then sell on Amazon. So, I had to take about 6 months out where I had to wait for them to sell all the stock because obviously, you know, the resellers were on there. They bought stock previously and it was also a slow time of year. So, it because I'm very seasonal as you can imagine. A lot of people are very Q4, Q1, I'm very Q2, Q3. Um and um so I had to sit and wait and that hurt financially while while while I sold out. Um and then I had for example some reseller had put a blue blanket as a listing that as a listing image. Um and uh I was like okay so I had to get all that sorted out. So I did temporarily go back to the dark side of vendor central um in order to get a lot of these things sorted out. And then once I was all sorted there were a couple of other reasons why I also left um which was primarily due to Amazon matching prices which some of the other retailers were doing which was just crazy stuff. Um I then moved everything over to seller central. So I' I'd started on seller central around 2014 14 2015. Um so I started in the UK kind of started to learn a little bit how it all worked. Uh then I launched in the US then I launched in Canada and then I launched on Australia as well. How big a team is this just you or do you have people working for you or So I do have people working for me but I don't actually I say employ anyone um as such because I the business is so seasonal it's difficult to give people things to do kind of all year round but I have got a team of freelancers some of whom have been working with me on and off for like nine years five years three or four years and you know they do like maybe 20 hours a week or something like that which which works really well because I have a combination of people who then it means that although I've got a smalish team I've got a variety in that team um and I actually at the moment for example example, I I did have a VA in the Philippines, but I just got sadly had to part ways and I will probably be getting another one um who's a little bit more skilled in in other areas, but sort of more like the admin type thing. But I do I mean one of my biggest costs is actually probably people in my business because I like working with people I like. Um and um and and I think you know you know my ethos is not all about making every cent like it's not about cutting margins and not enjoying life. It's about I want to run a business. I want to enjoy what I'm doing. um I want to um grow the business. So, one of the things I often say is quite funny when I when I deal with a lot of Amazon sellers, they're all about the data, the numbers, the you know, they're crunching everything all the time. And I'm more about the emotions, the feelings, the you know, I sort of am more intuitive and when I get up in the morning, I don't think how can I sell more shades. I think how can I help more parents? because I know the benefits my products give to parents and I want more parents to know that freedom that they can get and they don't know about the product and that's the most frustrating point for me is that why don't these people know it exists because I get people telling me off they're like well I wish I'd known about this my first one or I've only just found out about you and I'm like well you know we try we're only a small company um but I also got a range of really good agencies as well so I have an Amazon PPC agency I have a Facebook ads agency someone who looks after the search engine optimization and Google ads PR as well. Um, so I outsource as much as I can because for me it's about quality of life. I don't want to be doing all of that. I obviously am m I I t it is me really pretty much at the top and then everyone feeds into me. Um, but I quite enjoy that because I like being involved. So that's just the way I am. How many hours would you say you're actually working a week now on average? I mean, I know you it's going to be seasonal and come and go, but is it this a five 10 hours a week where you're just kind of overseeing all the agencies and checking the reports and getting guidance or are you having to It it depends down into the weeds a little bit still. Yeah. No, it depends really. So, I mean the problem also is they do say when you enjoy your work, it doesn't feel like work. That's true. So, you know, and the other thing is I am able to put it down when I want to. That's that's the key thing. So when I was working in a corporate background, you know, you've got to do the 9 to5 slog or longer and you know you're you know you never really other than you have your four weeks holiday and that's it. But what I tend to do is I mean I interact a lot with my customers for example. So if someone messages in on Instagram or Facebook or anywhere really and I'm and one of the team isn't on duty, I'll usually answer it but I don't really consider that work if you know what I mean. That's just helping someone out. Um in terms of actual work I mean I'm I say I'm quite lazy. I'm not really lazy. It's just more that I I'm not very organized. I'm not one of these people who sort of goes and sits at the desk and what have you. So, I have moments. So, for example, if I've got to do a tax return or I've got to just sort out the accounting, etc. Um, then I will probably I can spend two days sitting in my chair from like 6:00 a.m. until midnight every day. But, and I do it and I I'm like, "Okay, I'm not doing that again for a while." Um, and then other times I will be a little bit more structured and I might do like a couple of days, 2 or three days of sort of working probably like 9 till kind of 3 4:00 something like that. And then other days I'll get a bee in my bonnet. I'm like at the moment I want I'm developing some new products. So when I'm on one of those days I'm I might work again do a really long shift. But the great thing is is you know uh if I want to go to a conference I go to a conference. If I want to go on holiday I go on holiday. Um you know if I want to take a day is freedom that that ultimately freedom and you can set your own schedule where if you got some work to do you can do it. You can like okay I'm just going to buckle down through 6 a.m. to midnight for a couple days. Knock it out and then I go do whatever I want and go play. Yeah. That that's that's that's the advantage of that of this sort type of business really um is do that. How many SKs are you managing right now on the line? Got 13. 13. Are they just color variations or size variations or are they actually different actually individ different things? I would say there's really probably well two main differences. One's for strollers and one's for kind of CS and pack and plays really. And then there's different variations and different sizes and different you know. Yeah. But that's it really. So this just for the people listening that aren't sitting in front of computer where they can look it up. So the product is basically it goes onto a stroller or you call it pram in the UK that and it blocks out it's almost like a you said it's like a a sun shade. So it's like a curtain or something that that kind of attaches to it and goes around or can you describe it what what it is? Talk American because obviously I know American from selling in the US you see being English I can translate. So I've got one for the stroller bassinet which is what we call in the UK a pram or a carry cot which is flatline where the baby is flat and there's one it goes kind of over the top like a canopy and what that does is it blocks all the sun so babies under six months should never be exposed to direct sunlight so it stops that and it also helps them sleep and it can they can always be used all year round so to help with sleep etc. Then there's a version for strollers where the child is sitting up looking out so they're able to see out but also then help to sleep as and when they need to. So, I mean, I used it with my daughter until she was five, just for like really hardcore big trips and things where she would get too tired to want to move. Then there's one for double. It blocks it out or it just knocks out the sun. 94% of light, which is the safest level of light you can block out because obviously you've got to have the air permeability of the um of the fabric. Um, and so it attach it attach it's a accessory. It attaches to any size stroller or does it have to be sized for different? I mean, I said as long as if it's a single stroller, I've got a single stroller version. If it's a sidebyside double, I've got a sideby-side double version. Um, so just universal size for, you know, there for the different types. And then there's one for the pack and play um as well, which goes over the pack and play. And why wouldn't the stroller manufacturers just make this part of their stroller? Well, do you know what? It's a really good question, and I've seen it happen over the last 15 years, and some of them have tried, but they just never make it as well as I do because um the thing is what manufacturers often do is um they look at their margins a lot tighter. And I've actually got a little bit more flexibility, I think, in my margins. Plus also um you know this is my one thing if you know what I mean and we do it really well and um what I one of the things I've really hammered home is the safety of my products um so basically what I do is all my products are safety tested to the normal levels then they're safety tested above um and you know and that that gives parents a confidence plus also remember a stroller manufacturer will make one that fits their buggy they're not necessarily going to make one that fits another one so the good thing is with mine is you can use it on all you know parents often have four or five different strollers So you can buy one product that works for all of them. Whereas with a manufacturer's one, it'll fit that one manufacturer, it won't necessarily move easily to the next or the next or the next. Have you ever thought about like licensing it to the stroller manufacturers or partnering with them in some way? Yeah, I think I did years ago, but to be honest, I kind of feel like it would lose lose a bit of value in it. So I don't really like the idea of it. What's the retail price on this? Oh, I mean it varies between in the UK it's about £20, which is what $24 or something to up to um maybe $65. So not not hugely expensive. So the $65, what makes that is a different material or or that's the one that's for the pack and plays. So that's much bigger. Okay. Okay. So what do you do? You said you said earlier you're not really a Amazon seller, you're a brand. So what what is the definition of that? What when people are listening a lot of people think, well yeah, they're listening go well I'm a brand. I'm on Amazon. I got a brand name and I got a logo and I got, you know, some stuff on my packaging. So I'm a brand, too. But but they're really not. So what's what is the what is the true difference between a real brand and someone selling under a name or with a logo on Amazon? Okay. So a logo is not a brand. Uh a trademark is not a brand. Uh a brand is a personality basically. Um and I think uh what you'll find is that a lot of Amazon sellers they there's no why in what they're in why they're selling if you know what I mean. You need to have a story. So there needs to be a reason for your customer to emotionally engage with you. So that's the difference. A brand is something that a customer can emotionally engage with. So for example, um you know, buying a car, for example, is often not anything other than a brand decision because it's usually like, oh, my dad used to drive Fords. My uncle used to drive has has just bought a Tesla. Um you know, my my dad hated BMWs, whatever it might be. And you've had these experiences which are emotional experiences. They're not logical. It's not like you don't know why your dad hates BMWs. You don't know why, you know, but it's just like you've got these sort of emotional connections with products. Um, and so when you're looking for a car, you're like probably got that in the back of your head. You know, my dad never really liked BMWs. Now, if you hate your dad, you might go and buy a BMW just to spite him. So, you know, that's not a logical purchase, if you know what I mean. And so, that's the thing with a real brand is that there's something there which has some form of an emotional connection where the customer feels like that they're actually engaging with the brand. It's not about the products, it's about the brand. Because you know a brand can send sell multiple different types of products but by building up trust by building up kind of a personality the the customer can then basically um emotionally engage. So um yes so there are a lot of sellers on Amazon um who use Gmail addresses right? No, you need a domain. Okay. Um you need to have a website. You need to have something that shows that you don't just exist on Amazon. If you don't have anything that exists off Amazon, you are not a brand. You're just an Amazon seller. Um, and even if you do have a website, it should be more than like a website that just basically has your basic information. You know, there should always be, as a general rule, um, if you want to kind of grow, um, as as a brand, you really need to have a story, as I said before. So, you know, of I do know there's a lot of sellers out there who would probably just say, "Well, I'm there to make money." Well, okay, that's not really a story anyone's going to give a blind hoo-ha about, right? But a lot of people, it could be that they wanted to give up their day job because they wanted to do this or travel or whatever it might be. It might be that, you know, that they got frustrated with, um, you know, like me, I've got a story cuz I invented something. But it can also be, you know, um, for example, you know, they wanted to raise money for a really good cause. I mean, like Tom's shoes for example, you know, they donate like shoes for every shoe that's bought and things like that, you know, so they've started up with something where there's an emotional thing going on there. Um, and I mean, I think, you know, as you know before, there's things like you can use humor, make things funny. Um, you know, but just it's just otherwise there's no voice. Um, and there's no there's no personality. How do you have a brand story if there is nothing there to really talk about? Because actually a lot of a lot of Amazon sellers brand stories is just a showcase of their products. That's it. So how do you do that? How are you doing that specifically on Amazon having this personality and telling the story? Are you doing that in your A+ content or do you have interesting graphics and smiley faces and happy moms or what are what are you doing to actually convey that message when they don't have the ability to talk to you or to meet you or to see the product? I think it's really important to have a tone of voice, like to have some kind of tone of voice. So, mine is always very friendly, very warm, slightly humorous, but not too humorous because I'm dealing with safety. So, I have to be a bit careful. There is um the other day it was quite funny. I was um on Instagram somewhere and someone was going about how important it was to have an authentic voice when you're talking um but with your brand. And I said, "Yeah, but the problem is I swear I've got potty mouth and I've got a really wicked sense of humor and actually I can be really inappropriate sometimes. So I actually have to play that down when I'm in work mode because of the fact that I respect the fact that my audience is parents who are interested in safety. But I definitely always we always have a tone of voice friendly um you know instructional like we try to hold the hand of the parent as they're going through. We try and guide them like this is the product you need. Um reassuring you know like giving them all the information they could possibly need in order to make the purchase decision. Reassuring them with like trust. So I mean my business so far has probably won about 80 awards. So we we show the awards. uh we show social media proof of the fact that people are out there loving the product using it um you know so that they can identify and go oh yeah you know that could be me um highlighting the things that we know they care about so they care about safety they care about how much UV is blocked making sure those things are are there um and and that's one way of sort of conveying more of a personality but I think one of the ways we do it a lot and this is this is the other thing is that you know probably I get most of my traffic not on like yes the traffic's on Amazon um but they're when they're on Amazon they're usually looking for my brand so they've already heard about us. So I think a lot of it comes from social media. So on social media it's very like you know getting out there working with influencers getting them to share the product benefits etc. So they start building up. Then they come to our social media they sort of see you know who I am. There's videos of me talking. Um there's videos of the product being used in different ways. There's lots of testimonials. We get a lot of celebrities. We just had a lady today. I don't actually know who she is but she's got 3 million followers on Instagram. Um and she's using herne shade when she's out with her little boy. I actually had no clue who she was. Um and um you know, but we get that a lot. You know, we get people, we've had royalty use my products. Um so I think the thing is it's sort of working um working around. So, when I look at things to spend my money on, I'm probably the stingiest on my Amazon PPC and I'm probably more likely to be a bit more rash on spending something to do with marketing, like maybe sponsoring a podcast for a particular baby sleep consultant or um you know, doing an event or something along those lines or investing in product to give to influencers and time and the time of my team to support those influencers because that's the other thing. I mean, we regularly get I mean, in fact, actually, funny enough, I've literally one of my team left this on the desk where someone is te sending her product back and I think she left it for me to read and it said, "I must say I'm gutted. It's not for us. The quality and customer service you provide is one of the best I've experienced for a long time and is a credit to you. Uh, especially enjoy the cat gifts." Now, that's also because I put gifts in my news in my when someone orders off my website, they get a chain of emails. And the first one, for example, is thank you for your order. and I've got the girls from friends jumping up and down like I'm really excited whatever. Then the second one is about have you read your instructions and I couldn't find any interesting um gifts for that. So I found one of a cat reading a book um you know like instead um and then you know so so the thing is is just putting in some personality um and some thought to the fact that that's branding for sure. That is branding. Yeah. And it's reconfirming that they made the right decision. Exactly. uh as as well and making them feel. But how do how do you that's harder to do when you have a product that's a one time buy cuz I'm assuming most people are buying they have a baby one time and you said it could be used between different uh different trams or or or uh dollies or whatever the heck you call them over there that can be used between uh different ones. Maybe you know they need to buy a second one for for some reason because they're pushing two different ones but most of this is one-time purchases one and done right. So are you doing anything to like keep these build a community or of moms or keep these people around so that you maybe you can I know you said the goal is not to sell something it's to take care of a problem but maybe you can help them fix other problems that results in another product down the road. Well yeah but I mean the thing is you say that but the business keeps growing every year 10% 10% 10% babies keep happening except in uh except in Japan and uh few places where the population is going the other other way. Well, even everywhere the population is declining. Um, to be fair, I think probably there's probably a few places in the world that but they probably don't use so many buggies or or strollers. Um, but no, I think what it is I mean there there are various products and we try there is a product for when they're baby baby then one when they move to the stroller and there's one for the pack and play and you might have two children so you get the side by side. But if I'm honest is a pack and play. I'm sorry I'm not a a parent. What's a pack and play? The American word for a travel cot is what we call it or okay watercot. You're too cosmopolitan. You see I am. my hand speak English too well. Um, so, um, so yeah, we don't get multiple buys. But actually, funny enough, I mean, this is what I mean about being a bit lazy is that I've known for years that there are other products that I could sell to customers that would work because of the fact that they're all in the same kind of genre, but they're not going to be inventions. Um, but what I'm going to do is brand them as like shade essentials, basically. So, they're the sort of product that I know my parents will buy because if they're going to buy them, they might as well buy them from me rather than from someone else. Um, so that is something that's in the in the pipeline. Um, I have also got a product as well that I'm looking at doing for children with special needs as well, which has been asked for quite a lot. So I'm I'm busy cutting up prototypes and things for that at the moment. Um, and um, you know, but I mean, as I say, the thing is is that, you know, whilst I get exactly what you're saying, but the thing is is that it is only really a one hit wonder to but but the great thing I think is also when a parent has one, they then love it so much that they want to give it to their friends. So, I mean, I had a lady, for example, who um messaged me because she wanted to buy four of them as baby shower gifts for her friends. Um, and I was like, "Oh, yeah, sure." And she said, "Oh, can you give me a discount?" I was like, "Oh, yeah, no worries." Like, and I gave her quite a big discount cuz she'd bought quite a few before. So, I think I gave her like 20 or 25% off, which is a really significant discount. Anyway, it turns out, I mean, you may not know who he is, but one of the the gifties was Ollie Mur, who's a quite a well-known singer. Um, and um, she ended up giving and he's been using his new shade. He's had it in his um you know posted in his his social media and whatever and I was like if you'd have told me I'd have given it to you for free you know but that's the thing and and people like giving it as a gift as well which is which is great but yeah I mean you're right you know I mean I sometimes I look at people who are selling like supplements and I'm like wow that would just be amazing because once you've built your brand you know really people have to keep taking the thing you know and and like you know you're constantly kaching kaching kaching um but like I said I think you know it's it's um I'm quite happy kind of how I am really which is I quite also like the seasonality because it is I say crazy busy. It's actually less crazy busy now. We're bit we're selling more but it's less crazy busy I think because over the years we've had a lot of like questions about safety and and health and all the rest of it and we've sort of knocked a lot of those on the head now. So there's this assumption that it's fine and we get a lot less of the sort of it's going to kill my baby kind of comments on social media that we used to get. Um so it is actually a lot quieter in some ways. And then there's other things to do like investigating other retail options. Um, I'm looking at maybe um I mean I'm looking at maybe doing something with a Facebook group. Um, you know, like you say, building a bit more of a community around um like things that I know my my parents would be interested in. Um, but you know, I I suppose I'm just like, you know what, there's no mad rush. Um, so you know, it's all pling along quite nicely as it is. I mean, as you know, I've been copied by Aldi. I've been copied by the Chinese left, right, and center. Like, you know, they're always copying my products. I mean, I shut America down last year, uh, because I basically just got copied so much by the bestselling product, which is the one for the Travel Cop or Pack and Play. Um, and the Chinese just basically were copying and selling like a $20 product. They were buying and you could see they're buying them off Alibaba for like, you know, £45. It wasn't the same product as mine obviously, but it was a interpretation of it. And I can't beat my my product cost me about $27 or so to make. So, I'm not going to be selling it at like um $20 cuz I'd be making a loss. That'd be stupid. So, I just cleared the decks and then I've had a revisit, looked at like manufacturing costs, etc., etc. Mine will still be one of the more expensive models. Um, but um, you know, the business didn't suffer because I came out of the US. That's the interesting thing. I mean, I shut Canada and the US down at the same time. And, um, I'm still turning over more than I did before. Do you not have IP on this? So, you can't really um, I didn't get patent when I started. Um and uh so I haven't really I have actually got a couple of things for newer products but nothing like for when I for the product when I very first started. I didn't really know what I was doing in the same way. So um I didn't protect it to be honest and I should have done. Um but having said that it still doesn't matter because people still choose the brand. I mean I get it all the time. People are like oh I looked at the other options but in the end I've just gone for yours because I want the safety you know and when you're talking about baby products particularly you know safety is critical. You want those 80 awards that they want the 80 awards. They want the reassurance. say, you know, and also they can see me. Uh, you know, they can see the person who invented it. Um, you know, there's a few videos on Instagram and Tik Tok and all the rest of it. So, I'm very I'm not I'm not massively visible. So, funnily enough, I mean, I wouldn't necessarily say that somebody else couldn't take the brand over at some point and run it because you've still got that story. So, there's, for example, I think Ezra Firestone did it with um the Boom um brand where it was owned by I can't remember her name, Cindy. passed away and he's taken it on and grown it, you know, still. Um, so I don't think you could remove Snooze Shay because the thing is also then it's got heritage and history behind it. So it doesn't matter that it was started by Cara, you know, 15 years ago because it was started by me 15 years ago. Now somebody new might take over. Not that I'm planning on exiting, by the way, by at any point in the near future. But you know the good thing is I sort of think it's it's interlin with me but not so much like some brands are where they're so inter like linked with their founder that if the founder leaves the whole business collapses. Why would you you said you're not considering exiting. Why why would you why would that not be an option on the table? Because to be honest I don't need to. Um which is that sort of financially I'm absolutely fine as I am. Um I don't need a big payout. I'd be bored within four nanoseconds. Like what would I do? And I've seen a lot of my friends sell out seven, eight figures, nine figure um exits and then they're like, "Well, what do I do now?" And then they try and get back into the Amazon game or build another brand and it's a lot harder. So, I would rather carry on doing what I'm doing, which is kind of still growing mine and enjoying what I'm doing and um you know, keep going. I mean, I'm only what 53. Um you know, I can see myself doing this for at least another five years at least. Um, and even then what I might do is I might then get someone else to take it over and I'll just be lurking around in the background slightly dodgily while they, you know, while they benefit from it, etc. Because the thing is is that I've, again, I've seen it many times. I mean, you know, Ben Leonard, for example, he sold his brand and he's, I think, trying or has either bought it back or is I think he did buy it back in the end. Yeah, he bought it back. He's Yeah, he's going to try to do a little case study on how to resurrect a brand or something. Because they trashed it, right? And that's the thing. No one cares about your business the way you do. And if I'm really honest, um, at the moment, I'm I I enjoy it. It allows me to go to conferences. It allows me to go and hang out in really nice places and meet people talking about interesting things, doing interesting things. I mean, look, you know, look at the amazing day that you put on in Iceland for us, which was just incredible, you know, whale watching, super jeeping, you know? I mean, it it was just incredible. Like, how am I going to do that if I'm if I haven't got a business behind me doing it? So, you know, and the thing is also, like I said, I enjoy what I do. And I think, you know, if you're doing it and you don't enjoy it, then exit, right? Um, and the other thing is is that nowadays the retirement age is getting later and later and later and you need more and more money to live on in retirement. Well, I'm not in a corporate job. And that frankly is like a dream for me because I have the freedom. I hate I've always hated I was always a round peg in a square hole. Um, and I always hated that whole like I hate 9 to5. I hate that whole ethos. I hate like, you know, there are so many things that just wrong. you know, not being able to disagree with someone if you think they're wrong because they're higher up in the business than you are and and all the rest of it. Um, and um, I earn more money than a lot of my friends do working in a corporate job, but I get to do what the hell I like when I like. That's the way to be it. That's that's exactly the way to do it. That's what attracts a lot of people to this. Exactly. And they don't realize it can be a lot of work. And we got in at a time I mean whe starting a brand or before all these marketplaces whether it's Amazon or Shopify or whatever at the very beginning which it was easier then than it is for a lot of people now and like you just said people that exit I know a lot of them too that have taken some money off the table and and now they're bored or or they try or they try to do it again and most of them fail or have or struggle because well there two reasons. once much more difficult now and they're not used to putting in that kind of work and also some of them are right place right time and they actually don't know what they're doing right um and they just got lucky uh and build something up and and had a moat around them with reviews and stuff so there's a couple different reasons there but yeah I I see it a lot too and um if you're enjoying it and it's it's paying your bills there's no reason to sell the only thing is if the market crashes or something happens and then you you you don't want to ever look back and go man I could have gotten $4 million. Now this thing's worth hundred thousand. Um that's that's the downside to it. U but in your space I don't think that's likely to happen. I mean I don't first of all I think that's unlikely to happen. But second of all you've also also got to look at the cumulative amount of money you can take out of a business. So I've been going for 15 years. So I you know 4 million probably is not that far off in terms of what I've been able to take out and then also very tax efficiently as well. So rather than getting a great big lump sum which then gets taxed completely, you know, I'm actually taking out quite large sums, not necessarily write off all these trips to Cancun and Iceland and everywhere too is a business expense. Correct. Um and then also you've got well they are a business expense, you know, in absolute, you know, in absolute honestly they they're a genuine business expense, but then they generally are. Yeah. Things like my pension, which I think in America is is that a 401 or a 301? Yeah. Yeah. Like Yeah. 401 usually. Yeah. So I there are pension there are pensions too but that's kind of right that's not as common anymore um as like a 401k. So I'm chucking in the maximum amount you can put into your pension every year and I have been doing that for the last eight years you know and I wouldn't have been able to do that if I was in a corporate job. That's tax again that's tax efficient because it's coming out pre-corporation tax, you know, pre-p profofit. Um, so all of these things, you know, that you can do, um, you know, can all sort of make make life a lot easier. And and as I say, I think the other thing is genuinely I mean, I enjoy what I do. And, um, and I and and when I get when the day when I get out of bed and just think, "Oh god, I've had enough." I mean, I don't get me wrong, I have had days like that in the past. I have had I mean, one of my friends, I remember in the very early days when, you know, I mean, I worked like a freaking dog. I mean, I probably I remember I had a baby as well, so I had a my daughter was about 18 months old and I was working like a dog. I mean, I would get up at like 6:00 in the morning. Then I'd also be working and looking after Holly, then I'd be like doing family dinner, then I'd be going like putting Holly down, then I'd be working until maybe midnight, then getting up again. And, you know, that was my life. I mean, I I I did actually have in 2010, I did actually have a form of a of a breakdown because I just got so overwhelmed and I basically fell apart. Um, so personal health is very important to me and that's one of the reasons why, you know, I I look at what other people do and I watch and I'm like, do I want to do that? No, I'm all right. actually I'm I don't need to work so crazy because actually like if I I'm doing okay and I haven't brought on these new products then I bring on some new products I'm like oh wow that's really cool that's doing really well you know and I think that's the thing is that I think there is a there's often an a need for speed that's unnecessary um you know you need to maybe sometimes let things bed in a bit and and before you kind of go on to the next thing and and that's another thing also I'd say about um like Amazon for example so I shut the US down in Canada has my business like suffered on a bigger level no because actually I'm more profitable and I'm turning over slightly less, but I'm actually more profitable because the uh US business wasn't as profitable, whereas my UK business is. And because I'm focused on the UK, I'm growing it more, which is why it's growing. You know, we're about I think we're at least 10% up this year so far, and I haven't even hit really busy season. Um, and that's not through me doing anything that I can actually put my finger on and go, "Oh, I made that, therefore, I've increased by 10%." It's more just that sort of general awareness, keeping going, keeping the communication out there. Are you doing Germany as well or just the UK? No, just the UK. Just the UK? Yeah. And all your distribution, your wholesale is all UK or is some of that outside the UK, too? Well, I mean, I do I've got a a distributor in New Zealand. Um, but they they do a fair amount, but not not huge amounts. And then other than that, I've got a couple of smalish retailers in the UK who I work with because I like them. Um, and that's really it. And then the only other plans I've got to expand are going into Ireland. uh because uh I've always done really well in Ireland and now we've got an actual fulfillment center over in Ireland. Um so I'm probably going to start looking at that fairly soon. Um and uh but yeah, Germany, etc. You know, the problem with the EU and by the way, the UK and the EU are very separate. Thank you very much. Saying America and Canada, you know, we are different countries very much so. Um but um no, I mean trading in the EU is a challenge. I mean, unfortunately, it's a bit like, well, I mean, in the States, you've got like so many states and every state's got different rules and regulations, and that's the same with the EU. You know, every country's got its own regulations and its own rules and its own tax and all the rest of it. And, you know, they're just not so fun to play with. Um, and they can be quite sort of stick in the mud and all the rest of it. And, you know, it's very like, you know, you will follow the line, which is not necessarily the way most entrepreneurs like to kind of walk. Um, so, um, I'm I I sort of I mean, I mean, I'm registered. I could go live in the EU anytime, but it's just whether or not I really want to or not. I just can't decide really. So, on your new product ideas, do you get these from your customers by looking at emails and being actively involved in there, or are you polling them or going out to them and saying, "Hey, what what other types of stuff would you guys love to have uh that we What's that?" I said, "That would be a really good idea." Um because that would be like data driven and all the rest of it. know, I mean, most of it is I just kind of Well, obviously there's things like frequently bought together, so that's an obvious match. And there are some things that I know, you know, frequently bought together, they might as well buy my version of that than someone else's. Um, and I can do bundles and all the rest of it. But then there's other products which I just know my customers, so I know that they're going to like this, they're going to like that, they're going to like this. And so obviously then I go and do the research on Amazon and see what kind of sales volume. I also test things out on my website. So, you know, I I I've done it for the last few years. I introduce a few new products on the website and see which ones sell um because you know that can be quite a good indicator. Um and um yeah so so basically um yeah I just sort of um I mean there's there is some data involved. I mean my ad agency are much more data driven so they'll be much more likely to kind of go oh yeah this would be a good like product to do and or I'll say I'm thinking about doing this. Um and they might might say to me oh yes that's got good volume or whatever it might be. But to be honest I just kind of know like what my customers would like. So I'm sort of fairly confident that the products I'm looking at and the other thing I'm doing it for is I'm always about is in marketing I I talk about octopus tentacles. So you know making sure you reach your customer in multiple different ways. So you know you reach them on email, you reach them on like Instagram, you reach them on Tik Tok, etc. And it's the same for products. So if I've got these other products that are in other categories, that's another octopus tentacle that goes out and exposes the brand to them and then they'll get the product. It'll tell them more about the other products and therefore they'll hopefully come over and buy the other products. What percentage of your customers do you estimate come from referrals from someone seeing someone walking their their baby through the park and they see your product on like oh where'd you get that? Oh it's uh you know I got it on Amazon or I got it on this website and what do you do you have any idea like how much is that versus how much is like all your efforts for ads and SEO and everything? Well yeah no I'd say it's probably more the being out and about with them really and um people seeing them. So, I mean, I don't know is the answer, but I do know that when we get a lot of things, oh yeah, my friend has one or I saw this on holiday or whatever. So, I mean, I'd say maybe 50% or something like that probably. Um, I mean, that so that's the benefit of Amazon. So, you know, the the fact is that Amazon is a place for people to find a product that they don't necessarily know is around because it's in the right category. So, they're looking for a pram sun shade, they find my product, it's the best seller, it has the most reviews, you know, etc., etc. Um but um and also you know it can be shown you know for different things. Um and then you know the website and everything else is for the people who kind of you know they're looking for something and and you know I mean like obviously I mean look we we all know your Google is going to go downhill fairly soon. I mean it's it's going to probably the the standard SEO strategy um of of the last 15 years is going to completely pivot with AI. Um but for example you see a lot of the work. It's really interesting. I had two new team members here today and I just said to them, look, just put into chat GPT. I said, have you mentioned shade to them before? And they said, no. And I said, okay, just put in what it my friends just had a baby. What's the best pram sun shade that she should buy? Guess what it recommended? You. Correct. Because the thing is, even though Google P I I think it's really interesting. So, I know my SEO SEO guys really like, oh my god, like you know, search engine optimization as we know it is is changing and it's a whole, but actually it still goes back to the fundamentals. The more you put out there, and this is why being on Amazon only is so dangerous. The more you put out off Amazon, the more credibility you have and the AI, yeah, the LLMs like that. They like those press releases. They like those mentions on other uh websites for someone, you know, the picture of the the royalty uh that's on their website or whatever it may be. That all that stuff factors in. Yeah. uh to to it why why it needs to be the part of a strategy for any like seller needs to start thinking more like a brand which is actually putting content out there online reviews off Amazon and you know reviews are not all about Amazon reviews should be like you know look for review websites look for bloggers look for influencers look for um you know they have quite a lot of the the sort of magazines like websites where they're they're pulling together reviews of different products you know go out there and be a bit more proactive get out and actually put your product into the real world Not just Amazon. Take it away from Amazon and start thinking about it as a product that exists outside. Yeah. Like Google My Business and Google knowledge graph are two things that can help you quite a bit too that a lot of people don't don't do. What what do you see is changing the most for in Amazon since you started selling on Amazon 2015 or or whatever it was. what what have you seen evolve uh for and what do the people listening to this that are selling on Amazon whether they're starting or maybe they're they're going right now what do they need to be paying attention to and what how how's what are some of the changes that you see coming up on the horizon or or are there any I don't know I mean I think Amazon is I think when when obviously when I started it was 10 years ago and Amazon was still in kind of I say startup mode really you know in terms of pushing FBA forward and all of those sorts of things that's all now established and what we've seen over the last few years is the increase of costs because Amazon is going to keep trying to throw more and more costs at sellers, not less. Um, and so, you know, the the people who are operating on incredibly small margins are going to struggle because, you know, Amazon is going to want to take more and more money from you one way or the other, whether it's to pay for storage, for, you know, fulfillment, moving it around different centers, whether it's advertising. I mean, now they've just changed the the deals option where that used to be like a cost-ffective thing. I think now is it like some is that $800 or something you have to something like that. Yeah. Um so I think you're going to see more and more of that. Um and this is why it's equally important you get off Amazon because you know you shouldn't have all your eggs in one basket. You should be operating a business that doesn't just operate in one area. Um because you know it's going to be interesting because obviously Tik Tok's coming after Amazon um you know with like hardcore um whether or not and you see the thing is also shoppers are going to change you know like what what you also have to remember is your Amazon customers probably possibly they might be the slightly older customer right and your Tik Tok are the younger generation and the more they get used to shopping on Tik Tok that's going to overtake because it's a bit like for example social media I I use Facebook still my daughter She I think she's got a Facebook account but only because I asked her to open one because of some reason or other. She's on Tik Tok, she's on um Instagram. Those are her two primary and Snapchat. Those are her three things. Now she's the person of the future, you know. I mean, she's aware of Amazon because obviously I end up when she buys books and Kindles and all all these things and videos and stuff, she's buying on mommy's account. So, she knows how to get onto Amazon in that way. Um, but whether or not she's going to really be the person who goes to Amazon to buy or whether she's going to like people are going to start literally putting their full cataloges onto Tik Tok or another platform, let's not forget, you know, we we're a constantly moving um environment now and with AI, things are going to speed up even faster. I mean with chat GPT you know moving into retail as well or into e-commerce that's going to be a real game changer you know um and you know that it could even be that you know you just end up maybe in the end it's going to be a case of just going on to chat GBT and saying oh I want to buy this and it goes off and finds you the best prices and tells you right these are your options and then would you like me to buy it for you I'll put it through my chat GBT account. I think that I think you I think that's going to be a bigger and bigger thing. It's interesting times that we're living in. And I think there's a lot of big uh changes coming up. But uh at the end of the day though, if you're a true brand like you are, you've got a big advantage. And I think that's the the biggest lesson is become become a brand, not a seller of products. Exactly. Uh and and no matter what happens, whether it's SEO changes or chat GBT buying or different social media platform, if you're that if you're a brand and known as that brand, that that's that's the uh the big shield that you have around you that's going to help you sustain and grow. Look at all the people who do the big exits. What is the common theme? Yeah. Branding, right? All brands. No one goes and buys a brand called XY Z J KL because it's selling a very successful garlic crusher. Well, they did. The name was the company was Thrasio and now they're no longer around. Cheap monkey. But um I think I think it is it's um you know there's a definite power in having a brand. There's a power in not just selling products, you know, and and actually if I'm honest, you know what? everyone should be doing if you're look go and get on to bloody chat GPT and say to it this is my product how do I make a brand from this chat GPT will help you know I mean I at the moment I use chat GPT for everything I mean if it could brush my teeth I would help I would get it to help you know help me that's coming that's that's coming it's going to be the little robotic arm that's uh Bluetooth enabled and uh you're just going to upload a picture of your mouth smiling and uh brush harder here you know but all honesty but the but the thing I would say, and this is similar to the Amazon seller type scenario. You're selling a crappy product on Amazon, you're never going to do very well, right? Because it's all about the quality of the product. At the end of the day, even if you've got a great brand, but you're delivering rubbish products, that's not going to help anyone because it's not a great brand. A brand is the quality of the product, too, like the iPhone or something like that. It's it's the it's the messaging, it's the packaging, it's the avatar, it's the personality, but it's also the quality of the product is important. And that's an area where a lot of people don't pay as much attention as they should. And then and then the thing with chat GPT is the same thing, which is if you put in a rubbish prompt, you're going to get rubbish out. So you actually need to really start understanding what it is you're researching. So if you don't understand marketing, then tell get chat GPT to give you a course on marketing. Tell it tell it to teach you like the 101 basics of marketing. Tell it to teach you the 101 basics, you know, tell tell it there was a website which I think is probably redundant now because chat GPT would do it now, but that sort of talk to me like I'm a 5-year-old. Um but you know it's that similar sort of ethos which is you know you need to understand marketing. I mean I it was funny. I was at a conference not so long ago and um somebody came in after me um and uh when he spoke to me he said oh you are you a marketing agency? I said no I've got my own brand. He was like oh wow cuz you know from the way I talk I'm I'm talk marketing is in fact I literally said this today to my two new team members. I said I've seen this through history right? So, I remember like in the 1980s when there was um in the 1990s, sorry, when there was a um the big uh crash, um the first thing companies do is cut their marketing departments, right? It's the first thing they've always done. They keep sales and they lose marketing. The problem is how do you sell if no one knows about your product? And marketing is the how they know about your product. So, you know, that's why it's really important because something will sell if they know about it. You almost don't necessarily need the sales team if you're marketing enough. So, one of the things I do is, you know, it doesn't matter like when COVID hit, I didn't just go like, "Oh my god, I'm going to panic and not do anything." I was like, "Right, let's ramp this up, you know, let's get out there doing more, you know, and actually I had a really good year that year." Well, Carara, this has been uh this has been great. I really appreciate uh you taking some time to to chat uh chat with me today here on the AMP podcast. It's always a pleasure and never a chore. Never. Uh this has been this has been fun. I always enjoy speaking with you uh whether it's at BDSS or one of the other events. Um, and uh, you know, we'll just have to put on the thumbnail. Uh, what's your little thing that you're always known for in the group? The what is it? The the toe pictures or something. Yeah. Yeah. The toe the toes in the sand pictures or whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah. In the Amazon industry, toe shots. I've got I've had men sending to putting posting toe shots like, you know, with boots on, without boots, etc. I'm doing a toe shot. That's great. It's great. That's That's the car brand right there. Exactly. That's it. Well, if people want to uh to learn about your brand uh or reach out to you or connect with you or something, what's the best way for them to do that? Well, it's very easy because I am actually the only carer in the world. Uh which makes it easy for everyone. So, like LinkedIn, uh Facebook, it depends. If I haven't met you, I probably won't accept unfortunately because it's my private like it's more private although I know I've got a lot of people on there. Um my brand is Snoo Shade which is very easily accessible um everywhere on every kind of social media channel etc. Um, so yeah, just however you like really. Awesome. Well, thanks Cara. I'm sure I'll see you at another BDS event or some other event uh here in the in the near future. Oh, absolutely. You know, I won't stay away. So, if you're not a subscriber to the billion-dollar seller newsletter, billiondollers.com, you're missing out on what's happening, how the Amazon industry is changing, how how to actually do some of this kind of branding that Cara and I talked about on Amazon and on other platforms as well. Some of the new ways to optimize everything. We cover all this every Monday and Thursday in the totally free Billiondoll Sellers newsletter. So, if you're not a subscriber, be sure to go to billiondollarellers.com and sign up today. We'll be back again next week with another awesome episode of the AM PM podcast every single Thursday. Brand new episodes coming out. So, don't miss them. If you like this episode, be sure to subscribe to the channel, hit that like button. Uh share this episode with somebody if you if you thought it was interesting and they could benefit from it. Uh we always appreciate that as well. Or you can even leave a comment down in the comments and and say how much you like it or how much you hate it or the sound of my voice just is like fingernails on a chalkboard or whatever you want to say. You can throw that down in the comments as well. Have a great week and we'll see you again next time.