#381 – Charisma Hacking And How It Can Improve The Voice Of Your Brand with McCall Jones

#381 - Charisma Hacking And How It Can Improve The Voice Of Your Brand with McCall Jones Speaker 1: Welcome to episode 381 of the AM-PM Podcast. My guest this week is McCall Jones. I first saw McCall speak at a Funnel Hacking live conference back in September of last year and she was talking about the attractive character, the charisma model that she has. It's an amazing concept that I think every entrepreneur listening to this podcast needs to know either for themselves And, or for their brand. And that's what we're going to dive in today. I think you're going to learn a lot about this. She's going to also be speaking at the Level Up event, which happens directly after the Billion Dollar Star Summit. It's my second event that's happening back to back in Hawaii, in Kauai, Hawaii. And Level Up is for empire builders that want to level up their game and want to take their business to the next level. A lot of people that are coming to the Billion Dollar Seller Summit are staying for that as well. And speaking of the Billion Dollar Seller Summit, the in-person one is in May in Hawaii, May 18th to the 23rd, level up. Where McCall will be speaking is May 23rd to the 26th, also in Hawaii. And the virtual event is happening in just a couple of weeks. So you can do that one from anywhere in the world. You can go to BillionDollarSellerSummit.com. And get all the information on that one. You definitely want to be at that. We've got some amazing, amazing speakers, including some doing well into the millions of dollars per month on TikTok. A lot of cool Amazon hacks and tactics. Speakers have won top prize at other events. You don't want to miss the Billion Dollar Seller Summit virtual event happening in a couple of weeks, the 21st and 22nd of February. In the meantime, enjoy this incredible and awesome episode with the fabulous McCall Jones. Unknown Speaker: Welcome to the AM-PM Podcast. Welcome to the AM-PM Podcast, where we explore opportunities in e-commerce. We dream big and we discover what's working right now. Plus, this is the podcast where money never sleeps. Working around the clock in the AM and the PM. Are you ready for today's episode? I said, are you ready? Let's do this. Here's your host, Kevin King. Speaker 1: Got something a little different for you today. McCall Jones, how are you doing? Speaker 2: I'm doing so well. Thank you for having me. How are you doing? Speaker 1: I'm excited. This is going to be a high energy podcast, I think, because you're always full of energy. This is going to be awesome. Speaker 2: I've been mining caffeine the whole time. Speaker 1: So, for those that are listening to this podcast, it's a little bit different that we're doing today. You know, a lot of times I'm talking about Amazon and the latest ways to do your advertising, the latest ways to do shipping or something, but there's something else That's super important out there that I think a lot of people that are in this, especially in this Amazon e-commerce space, they forget and they get so entwined in what they do and they're focused on that they lose sight of sometimes the bigger picture of things and that's why I wanted to bring you on. I saw you speak last year at Funnel Hacking Live and I tell my audience a lot of times, you know, I go to a lot of Amazon conferences. I speak at a lot of Amazon conferences but some of my favorite ones to go to are not Amazon. They're more entrepreneurship or more general marketing and that's what Funnel Hacking Live is. Was it 4,500 people were there in Orlando or something like that? Speaker 2: Yeah, I think 5,000. Speaker 1: Yeah, something like that. There might have been, I don't know, 20 or 30 guys that sell on Amazon there. The rest of them are all doing funnels and all kinds of other stuff. But what I get out of it is it expands your horizons. And it actually, I use those events, I brainstorm a lot at those events. So I'm sitting there and it may not be some tactic that I'm going to use, but I'm like, wait a second, what they're talking about is actually fundamentally good if we apply it to this and this and this. And you came up and you spoke. I never heard of you before. You spoke on like day three. It was like a 20 minutes, 18 minutes, 20 minutes, a short presentation, but you just rocked it. And I was like, I sat up in my seat and I was like, this girl has got it. This girl, what she's talking about, I think it went over some people's heads and they might not have totally got it, but like, this is fundamentally important. And I go back to the psychology of marketing and the roots and you didn't give away some hack, how they're going to make a million dollars tomorrow or how they're going to set their funnel up, but you said something that's very important around this thing called the attractive character. What the heck is an attractive character? Speaker 2: So I think of myself as like a human amplifier basically. My entire job is to help other people attract people to them. So the reason why it's called an attractive character, because a lot of times people think like, oh, it's a good looking character that is the front face of a business, but it's an attractive character because it attracts people to the business. So it basically means you are the face of your company and that you with your face are selling and attracting customers To you, to you. So the whole premise of attractive character is, yeah, to use your personality and use your charisma as almost like a weapon against your competitors and to get people to fall in love with you and follow all of your stuff and to use your personal brand. Yeah, because people like to work with people. And if you can put a face on a product, then it makes people trust it more. Speaker 1: If you're the face of the product, you're the influencer, you're the guy on Facebook, you're the guy teaching the course or getting people to come buy your thing, that's one thing. And we'll talk about, we'll go down that path in a minute. But there's also another aspect of this, which you didn't cover as much in your talk, but I think is applicable, is the attractive character to a business. Because a business, legally, a corporation, is a person. If you go look in legal, straight-up legal terms, a corporation is considered a person. And a lot of people, if you're not the public, if you're not the spokesperson or the public representation for your company, you need someone that is. You need an Aunt Jemima or you need, you know, the Uncle Bob on the barbecue sauce that's, you know, maybe it's made-up character. And what a lot of people are doing now, and you know, Perry Belcher talks about this, he spoke also at the event, but I've actually gone and using AI actually to create an avatar. He gives the example of a gardener. So he's like, who's our audience? Our audiences are women of this age. They drive this kind of car. They live in this kind of house. They like to grow these kind of vegetables. He's got a system where he puts all this kind of stuff and digital marketer does this too. A system where they put this into a database and it spits out a character. And this character even makes a picture of her. This is what Sally looks like. She's 62 years old. She likes to garden on Wednesdays and Fridays. She likes to do this. And it creates this avatar that draws people into them. I think a lot of our guys, they may be like, I'm behind the scenes, I'm not the guy, but I think you could do this, your same principles for creating an avatar, creating something that represents your business, the Angel of Mima of your business or whatever, you know, it may be. What is it, your background to actually get to this point was, what, theatrical, right? I mean, so, and... Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. So I grew up as a performer starting at age six. I spent all of my time either on a stage or in front of a camera. And then in high school, I did a couple movies. I was in like Disney's High School Musical 2. And then all through my 20s, I taught performers singing and voice and stage presence lessons. And then in 2020, so I taught performers like hundreds and hundreds of performers that and then in 2020, I went to Funnel Hacking Live for the first time. As A spectator like didn't know anything about internet marketing because my sister-in-law was speaking and I sat there the very first day of the conference and this woman sat next to me and she was complaining how people weren't staying and watching her videos. She talked about how people kept leaving her webinars and how her videos were awkward but she didn't know why and she couldn't get people to click on her Facebook ads. And I sat there and I turned to her and I was like, I think I can help Like I think I can help you. And I started Charisma Hacking that day, like at Funnel Hacking Live. You know, Russell Brunson, who's the founder of the event and of ClickFunnels, the company, he got on stage and he said, if you have something that's going to change people's lives, it's your moral responsibility to give it to them. So I literally left that first day of the conference with a new business and with a client. And then after working together, even in a couple calls, I, I figured out that she was facing the exact same problem that I had solved for myself growing up as a performer and that I had solved for all of these performers that I had taught before and it was just that she was not being herself, you know, and even though she was doing webinars instead of like music videos or speeches instead of Concerts, you know, all the principles were pretty similar. And as we work together, you know, within four calls, we 12x her click through rate on our Facebook ads. But I wasn't setting out to do that. I was just setting out to make her herself. And it was at this time that I discovered not only the Charisma Hacking obviously worked, but that people like people who are themselves, you know, they pay more attention to people who are actually being themselves and they buy from people who they actually feel are being themselves. So yeah, Charisma Hacking was kind of born in that moment and since then have helped thousands of entrepreneurs basically do that, be themselves and attract and engage and convert customers even more. Speaker 1: And I see so many people, they're so worried about what other people think or how they're going to be judged or this and they're just afraid to just be themselves because they might upset someone or isolate someone or they're not going to have the perfect image. How do you get someone out of that shell? How do you get someone out of that process? Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. I think the first thing I would say is like a lot of times the advice out there is like be controversial and I think that people don't I think that people kind of fall on two sides of the coin. First, they say like, I don't want to be controversial or have people dislike me or have people reject me. So I'm not going to say anything. And on the other side, I think that people think that be controversial means like be kind of a, an a-hole, you know, and, and I don't. Speaker 1: Offensive or something? Speaker 2: Yeah, it's, it's the, Our job is just to help people choose a side, right? It's just to help people choose a side of anything. And how we get people out of kind of that fear of rejection is we start to talk about first kind of what's more important, right? It's what's more important, helping the people who are maybe going to suffer the consequences that you could prevent. You know, we talk a lot about people who have told you you're too much something or not enough something else and that they are wrong. And that, you know, when you are being yourself, you attract, you attract the people who should be there. And when you're not being yourself, you are repelling people who would like you anyway. Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, it goes to even public speaking. I mean, a perfect example of this is at my billion dollar seller summits. And you'll see this in effect in May. Um, as I do a cash prize for the best speaker for the, for the Amazon part, for the part that you're speaking on, you're speaking at level up. So it's, they won't be part of that, but for the, the, The technical side of things and because I want people to come up on stage and deliver next level stuff. I don't want them to do the same presentation they've done on three other webinars and two other stages and I want it to be actionable stuff and so I put a cash prize and then at the end I'm not eligible. I speak but I'm not eligible to win and so they vote. The audience votes on who gave the best presentation and inevitably it just happened in Puerto Rico in June. When I'm watching the presentations, I'm like, that is awesome information, but the way it was delivered or the way it was presented was not the same as someone who might have won. Like the girl that came in second place, Janelle, brilliant girl, super smart girl. You'll meet her in Hawaii. She came up on stage, kicked off her flip flops onto the stage, sat down on the stage and just like started telling a story. Made fun of herself along the way in her stories and had this energy. The other guy that won, he came up there and he made jokes, you know, and invoked humor into it. And he has a little bit of an accent. He's from Ukraine originally. So, you know, Made fun of some of the things he misunderstood, but those two people had good information, their talks were really good, but I think what put them over the top was their personality, was their attractive character. Because the audience wasn't bored, they sat up and they listened, and they were never boring, they were never entertaining, and they could relate because they showed warts and all. They showed that they were human and not just like this robot up there delivering information. Speaker 2: Yeah, what we've found, so there's two keys to really being successful on video, right? What you say and how you say it. But what we've found is that if you say it the wrong way, then nobody listens to what you say. Right? The whole concept of attractive character is exactly that, to attract people to you, but you have to get their attention before they will ever process your information. And charisma is how you first get their attention, right? And then engage them and convert them. But yeah, you're exactly right. The entire reason why I started my business and the reason why I shifted from performers to entrepreneurs is because I saw that there were people who have amazing solutions that can help people that nobody's listening to. Because they don't know how to say it the right way, you know, or don't know how to stand out or, you know, will be ultimately defeated by competitors because they're not getting anybody to pay attention to them. So you're exactly right. Yeah, it's the information doesn't matter if you deliver it in the wrong way, because nobody listens. Speaker 1: So to get that, let's walk through the process. So to get that initial attention, whether it's on stage, live, or whether it's on video on a Facebook feed or LinkedIn or whatever, or TikTok video, What is the, there's something called, some people say you should use like a six second story and it's like get into some really cook engaging hook whether it's and then tell either a personal story that the audience can relate to or use humor and start with something humor because that wakes everybody up and then they want to follow. What is, what do you recommend is that first step to get that initial let me stop the scroll or let me stop here and actually see what this person has to say? Speaker 2: Great question. So charismatically we call them Charisma Pattern Interrupts. We look at the conviction level basically. So this is the delivery. We'll start there. The very beginning of a video should fall between, if you think of an intensity scale from zero to 10, the beginning of a video should fall somewhere between a seven and a 10. If you start a video with low energy, people won't, it doesn't stop anything. So if you think of your own intensity scale, it doesn't mean that Kevin's intensity needs to be as high as mine, but on your scale of one to 10, it's gotta be between a seven and a 10. The way that we do that is we choose topics that have more conviction in them, right? Things that you actually care about so you're not just trying to like speak louder which actually does nothing, right? So things that you actually care about. So that's delivery-wise. As far as like the content of it, yeah, starting with a hook, always a good idea. The best kind of hooks that we talk about You know, on top of that, to kind of combine it with the charisma or hooks that have stakes, right? Or hooks that have consequences. And it's just helping somebody identify, like, this is for me. And if I listen to this, then something will happen. It's all about return on, you know, kind of the investment. But the first investment that somebody is making is their time. So they have to know immediately, is this going to be worth my time? When you talk about humor, be worth my time can also be like, was this so amusing, right? That I felt like my time was well spent. With information, it's are they going to give me a piece of information that I feel will move me forward or kind of help me pick that side or choose a side like we said before. But yeah, the faster you can let them know this will be a positive return on investment of your time, the longer people will stay and the more they're likely to like go from just watching a video to watching your entire channel and then investing more time into you, the person. Speaker 1: Do you need to do that every time on your videos or is it just like the first time, like a cold audience start, do you need to do it, do you need a second effect, here's a cold audience start and then okay this is a warm audience start, I still need to engage them a little bit, is there a difference between the two? On that, when it comes to video or even a stage, because I can go up on one of my stages for Billion Dollar Seller Summit, everybody knows me and I already have instant rapport, instant everything, but if I go on a Funnel Hacking Live stage, most of that audience have never heard of me. Like, who is this dude? So, my audience is going to pay attention by default because they're there partly because of me, but if I'm on a cold stage where I don't know anybody, what's the difference in how you would do that engagement or start creating that attractive character? Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna be honest. I approach it the same way. I approach it the same way as far as like content for hook I think the positive return on investment for any video is super important if it's so the way that I separate it is like if it's a live stream versus a speech versus whatever but I mean every speech needs needs a beginning and needs a middle and needs an end some people just Some people feel like they really get in the flow, right? When it's like three minutes into the speech and they can sense it, right? Their intuition tells them like, oh, you know, I spent like the first five minutes kind of messing around and then I really got into the meat and potatoes. And from my perspective, I'm like, okay, great. Spend the first five minutes messing around backstage and hit the stage running. You can spend that warming up backstage, but bring your people, especially those that know you, your very best material. It should always start with the hook. It should always start with high conviction and high energy, even though they will pay attention. So there's three steps to charisma. There's attention, there's engagement, and there's conversion. And if those people are more willing to pay attention, that's fantastic. Right? That's so awesome. That means you can move them faster to engagement and then faster to conversion, but you're still saying you are, it's still an exchange of goods, right? They are still spending their time for information or for something. So it's just making sure that that, that, um, exchange is, is level. Right? A lot of times people do the same thing with a webinar. They'll be like, Oh, you know, like the first eight minutes of it, you know, I, I just talked to people and I, I welcomed them and all this stuff. And then finally we got into the information and I tell them, Oh, awesome. Great backstage, right? Unknown Speaker: Backstage eight minutes. Speaker 2: Awesome. As soon as you get into the information, that's where your stuff should start. So especially with like scrolling mediums now, uh, you have so much more, There's so much more opportunity with cold audiences and reach with every video that you're posting, that if you post it for them and you say like, oh, I'm gonna be on my better behavior maybe for the cold audience, your warm audience is going to react the way that you want anyway, which is fantastic. But then the thing that you wanna think about is your warm audience, if they love it and they are more likely to watch it, they're also more likely to share it with somebody who's a cold audience member anyway. So if you're always creating for cold of like, oh, they don't know who I am and I really need to make sure I start off on the right foot, it just has more shareability too. Speaker 1: So getting that attention, do people identify with people who are more, look more and dress more like them? Or is it the old thing like, you know, well, I'm not pretty enough. I mean, obviously a pretty, a handsome guy or a pretty girl is going to stop the scroll or get the attention initially. When it comes to that, how do you overcome those pre-built in human just tendencies to actually do something like that so that you can get that credibility? Because, you know, there might be someone that Doesn't look the part of what I'm looking for or something. What do you do to actually get that attention or to start that attractive character? We're like, wait a second, let me not judge this book by its cover. And actually, what's some tactic to do that? Speaker 2: You're asking great questions. So my entire expertise is based on charisma and with charisma, right? So charisma by my definition or our definition at Charisma Hacking is the ability to do three things. So number one, get people to pay attention to you. Number two, get people to trust you. And number three, get people to do what you say. I work with people of all shapes and sizes, you know, or we want to say like different levels of beauty or whatever. And I haven't seen I haven't seen. When somebody is charismatic and they're themselves, I haven't seen the inability to build an audience based on different levels of physical attractiveness, I guess. I know that there are human things out in the universe, but I think if you can attract somebody that will like you in person, then you can attract and get somebody to like you online, regardless of what you look like. I agree. Speaker 1: I think charisma trumps all. Speaker 2: 100%. Speaker 1: Your attitude and your approach trumps any other insecurities or deficits, I guess, you might think you have. Speaker 2: 100%. It just attracts people. It attracts people and they feel it, right? Really the only thing that people or the audiences are looking for is, it's one switch. It's either yes or no, right? And when they feel like somebody's not being themselves, that's why people come up with words like slimy or salesy or cringy or whatever, right? They just are clicking no. And if somebody is being themselves, they have so many more opportunities for the person to click yes in their brain to be like, something about this person I'm attracted to. I don't know what it is, but something about them I'm attracted to. So yeah, charisma is king always. Speaker 1: To get that attention, we're still speaking on this first of the three things, the attention. If I'm at a live event, how important is it beforehand? Some people say to really capture an audience and to win them over to your side, you need to go mingle with the audience and go sit in the audience and say hello to a few people to kind of get the vibe of the room or the vibe of the audience or online, maybe monitor a few chat groups or chats and kind of get what are they into? Is that important or that doesn't really matter? You're just going to Just do your thing and attract the right people naturally. Speaker 2: Yeah, so I know why those things are done or said or people say that they're necessary and I'll tell you why. It's not for the audience, right? The only thing that it really affects is what I was saying before of like, do the eight minutes backstage kind of situation. We're looking for ways to get in the right frame of mind, right? And a lot of times, People, so before charisma hacking, truly, people feel like there's not a way to bottle it. So they're just looking for ways to optimize it. They're saying like, if I'm out in the audience, maybe I will be more charismatic because I'll feed off the energy of other people. If I, you know, talk and mess around on stage for five minutes, maybe I'll work up the courage so that I am the best version of myself. Basically those things, right? It's also why people will go to events and feel like they're on fire and then try to do things either at the event, they'll like record episodes of podcasts or they'll film ads and stuff or they leave the event and they immediately try to like gather their team and create content or something. They're trying to bottle a feeling or they're trying to bottle a behavior that they've had in a specific situation. With mingling with the audience content wise, like yeah, sometimes people will like add audience members names into their speeches or something like those are fun tricks and you can do that, but it's all about making sure that you are getting into what we call your charisma styles. And your warmup process can look like a lot of different things, right? You can just be backstage and warm up on your own, right? And there are specific ways to do that. You can, if you feel like mingling with the audience helps warm you up emotionally and gets you to that high conviction, Place, that's fantastic. I always, always say to warm up before any sort of speech, but I say the same thing with video, right? If you're about to do a webinar, you also need to warm up. If you're about to do a reel, you also need to warm up, right? It's probably the same reason why, you know, a lot of podcast hosts will talk to the person they're about to interview before they have the podcast. You can intuit that, oh, there needs to be some sort of warming up process here. It's just saying like how much can we systemize that and then find what actually works so we're not guessing the whole time. But yeah, that's why people say it. They're looking to bottle a feeling that happens in specific environments for them and they're trying on almost like different outfits of warming up to see what works best. Speaker 1: So once I've got their attention, how do I engage them? What are some tactics to actually engage them? Speaker 2: Great, yeah, great question. So with attract or with getting their attention, it's all about what we call their entertainment style. So it's like, do they think you're fun? Do they feel like you have high conviction and high, with that high conviction comes like kind of that higher energy. The next part that people have to do is, so first they're looking outward towards you and they're saying, do I wanna pay attention to this person? The very next thing that the audience has to do is they have to look inward And I have to say, is this for me? Should I engage with this content? Because is it relevant to me? So they have to say, oh my gosh, I have the problem that they're talking about, or this information is relevant to me. And oh my gosh, I need this problem solved, right? They have to feel compelled to choose a side somewhere. So the way that we do that is, you know, a lot of times when people dive into their customer avatar, they talk about like the pain points, the pain points of your problem of your people. So knowing the pain points of your people, what they're going through, what they think, you know, emotions, things like that, really important. The more you know what you're trying to solve for a person, the more likely they are to engage. So you dive into those pain points and you really try to get into their head and we just need identifiers so that the audience self-identifies. Oh, this is for me. This is for me. Um, And then they engage, whether it's in comments or in the audience, you get them to raise their hand or they like it or something like that. And then they can share it as well if they self-identify and they say, I know exactly who this is for, then they share it as well. The very next step from that, which is also engagement, is we talk about consequences, right? So we first have to set up the pain that we're solving for them and we have to get to know that really well. And then we have to frame what happens if they don't solve that pain. And the more they can realize like, whoa, this pain is something that I need to solve, I need to move on, then they engage even further and then they move into kind of our movement, action, conversion phase. But those are the two ways that they engage. So knowing the pain points really, really well and then framing out the consequences of like, what happens if you don't act are the ways to really engage an audience. Speaker 1: So it's kind of similar to a webinar psychology structure where at the beginning you want to give them, you want to get their attention, then you want to actually give them some stories so they can relate. A lot of times it's, I used to sleep on the couch and I had seven dollars in my bank account and now I'm a millionaire or whatever, like you can do it too. And then it's a series of yes questions like, well, Would you like it if you could do this? Would you like it if you could do this? And it's like, you want them hitting yes, yes, yes, yes. So it's kind of similar to that same structure of building a successful webinar that's interesting. On the engagement, how important is it to make sure they relate to a story of you? Do you need to use a story of you or a story of one of your other customers or somebody? Or can you, we need to have an example in there that they can go, that could be, that could have been me, or that could be me, or how important is all that? Speaker 2: Yeah, so when choosing stories, because a lot of times people will just like add stories because they hear stories sell. And what I say is just the right stories absolutely will sell, right? It's not about how dramatic the story is, it's how many parallels there are from the people in the story to the people in the audience, right? So if you can say, here's where the audience is at, and here's where they want to go, if you can tell a story of somebody, whether it's you or a client that you've worked with, That started where the people are at or even lower or further back than the people in the audience and they have ended where the audience wants to go. All of a sudden they see that and they're like, oh, if you have shown that you could do this, starting where I'm at and getting where I want to go, then I feel like I am more likely to be able to do that as well. You know, a lot of times people tell kind of the rags to riches stories. What they're trying to show is I have done this. So I could do this again with you. They're just increasing what Alex Hermosi calls it, the perceived likelihood of achievement. You are trying to get them to see themselves in the story, right? So whether it's you or a different client, it's all about the details. It's about how well do you know this person and how well can they see themselves in your story? And yeah, that does move them along and it does help them feel like, oh yeah, I can do this. I can do this. Like I see myself in this for sure. Speaker 1: So this applies whether you're trying to get someone to buy a course or a webinar or a conference, but it also applies if you're trying to get someone to buy a product. I mean, the character is like, this is how you suck it. I know I feel your pain. I couldn't cook either, but with this new device here, I can cook meals that my husband just loves. You can apply this a lot along a ton of categories. What about sound when you're trying to get engagement? You know, you look at Tony Robbins and he'll have, he has a DJ when he presents that's in the back, not spinning up records, but he'll say something and it's on like on cue. They'll play, you know, six seconds of a lyric of some song just to like cement that point or he'll act. To keep people engaged, you'll say something like, hey, everybody, all right, if you like this, clap three times, or you see some of the people at Phenomenal Hacking Live do that. How important are those kinds of things to actually keep people in that engagement and keeping it going, either sound or actions or whatever, more than just nodding your head or saying something? Speaker 2: I would say that the thing that they're all doing correctly, which is really all that you need, is you're just asking for the engagement that you want, right? And then you can gauge whether or not people are responding or they are engaging, whether or not they respond, right? So, for example, there were a lot of times during my funnel hacking live speech that if If people didn't respond as loudly when I said say yes or like say light or whatever as they had before, I knew that they needed to dial back in so I'd have them say it again, right? So I'd be like say light and then if like half the audience was saying it, I was like nope, say it again, right? And it makes them dial back in. So asking for engagement also allows you to kind of gauge where the audience is at. As far as like the sounds or like tap this or whatever, like I think they're just asking for unique engagement that makes people maybe dial in more. I haven't done any research on like the lyrics or anything like that. From my perspective, they're just asking for engagement, right? They're asking for engagement and then they're able to gauge whether or not it's working. As far as like music and things, Music definitely causes emotions. It's why they play like soft music in the background that, you know, while you're writing journal entries and things, that's why they have walkout songs. So like people could use music for that, but anybody who is new to speaking or new to engaging people, A lot of times they will feel inadequate or they will feel like an audience doesn't like them because they forget to ask the audience what they want them to do or tell the audience what they want them to do. And it's exactly like the guy in the back situation where it's like, is this making sense? And then the audience doesn't know how to respond so that they feel like the audience isn't actually paying attention to them. And then they feel insecure. And then all of a sudden they're like trying to compensate because they feel insecure, right? And it just kind of like snowballs from there. Instead, if right from the beginning, you know, I don't know if you saw Brad Gibb and Ryan Lee the very first day. They did the whole speech on movement. They were my clients, so I helped them with that speech. And right from the beginning, they were asking for engagement. And if you do it right from the beginning, the audience is used to it, and then they will engage with you throughout your entire speech as well. You just have to know what to ask for. I mean, at the simplest level, it's like when people say, comment below for this, or type this in the chat if you're feeling this. Yeah, it's just asking for it and engaging whether or not it's happening. Speaker 1: So how do you, on the engagement, how do you help the audience minimize distractions? Whether it's, if it's an audience that's live, you know, you don't want them messing with their phone. Obviously people, most people turn their phone off and stuff like that, but how do you minimize that? Or if it's a video, the kids are coming in saying they're hungry or whatever and you lose, you want to get them into that place where they're like, wait, wait, wait, I'll talk to you in five minutes. I got to pay attention. How do you get them in that, keep them in that engagement so they're like, Not right now, let me talk to you in ten minutes, how do you keep that going? Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so silly, you make the video really entertaining. The interesting thing, so a lot of times people will talk about, especially right now, that attention spans are getting shorter. And I just believe that is not true. I don't think that attention spans are getting shorter. I think our taste is getting better, right? I think that people's taste has risen because if you can get in a 15 second video, the same amount of value that you could get out of a five minute video, then the 15 second video is better, right? If it's the exact same amount of value, you're delivering it faster. So our taste has gone up being like, oh yeah, I'll watch this instead, right? A video is never too long, it's too boring, right? There are videos online that are seven hours long and if they can engage somebody the whole time because they're entertained, then the video is not too long. As soon as people start to drop off, that's where you know the max length. So in order to get and keep people's attention, it just has to be entertaining. Whether it's asking for that engagement while you're on a live stage or it's adding things like jokes, things like that. Making sure that there's dynamics in a video is super important. Whether, you know, the first kind of dynamics that people know about with charisma and people use, they say it a lot, is monotone. They're like, I just don't want to be monotone. That's only one kind of dynamics, right? Monotone is the lack of dynamics in vocal pitch, right, to get really geeky. It's that there is no variation and all of a sudden it starts to fade into the background. But if you are not a super expressive person, you don't have to all of the sudden modulate your voice up and down. The next way you can add dynamics is by different emphasis on different words. It's making sure that your video's full of dynamics, that you are studying where people fall off of the videos and adding more dynamics there. It's just making the video more entertaining. Speaker 1: It's kind of like when you first start dating or when you first fall in love with somebody, you might be sitting there on the porch, talking on the back porch, talking to them for seven hours and you look up and he's like, that felt like 15 minutes. Speaker 2: Yeah, 100%. Speaker 1: It's kind of like you want to get into that, find a way to get into that first date, first fall in love zone with your audience and how do you keep them in that zone to where when they're not looking at their watch like, who's the freaking next speaker? When's lunch? They're like so captivated, they're like, give me more, give me more, give me more. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: And that's hard to do, but it can be done by everybody. Speaker 2: 100%. Honestly, well, it's two things. It's what you say and how you say it, right? And we talked about this a little bit before. The how you say it part is your own charisma. You have to be in your own charisma styles, what we call charisma styles. And that just means you are being actually yourself. At all different intensity levels, you're actually being yourself. The what to say part of it, first, you have to be talking about things you care about. A lot of times people will be like, well, I'm just making educational content. And I'm like, okay, well, if it educates them, but you don't care about it, they're not going to listen to it anyway, because it's going to be boring, right? So making sure you actually care about what you're saying automatically makes it more charismatic, just the way that you speak about it. And then beyond that, right, it's knowing your audience really well, and knowing what they want to hear, right, knowing what's going to help them the most, knowing where they're currently at, where they want to go, right, and just doing all that audience research. So if you know yourself really well, Right? And you can truly be yourself in all these situations, right? And then you know what you care about. So what that is like the first umbrella of stuff you can talk about. And then from there you say, okay, and what is actually helpful to my audience? If you have all three of those things and people will, they will come, they will stay, they will buy everything. Like they, they become your ideal audience because they want everything that you're putting out. You just have to have those three things. Speaker 1: They become raving fans. Speaker 2: 100%. Speaker 1: So after you've done this and you've converted them into raving fans, how do you convert them? Speaker 2: How do you convert like money? How do you convert that money? Speaker 1: You said that's the third step in this is converting them. So how do you convert them to taking whatever action it is that you want them to do? Speaker 2: Yeah, great question. So first we attract, right? We get them to pay attention to us. Then we get them to say, Oh my gosh, this is for me. I have this problem. Whoa, I need this problem solved. The final step is what we call authority. And all you're doing is At that point, they're ready to choose somebody to solve the problem. They know they want it solved because of all the things that you've said and how you've had them engaged or have had them engaged. And then they're just saying, okay, now who can solve this problem for me? And at that point, you are just showing them how you can solve that problem, right? You are establishing your authority, right? If you've done all the steps in order, at that point, you are either saying, right, depending on what your charisma style is, you're saying, I have the missing pieces that you've been looking for the whole time. So of course, like you should go with me and I'm going to solve your problems and everything's going to be great. Or I've helped somebody exactly like you succeed. So I can help you succeed too. And they're like, Oh my gosh, yes, of course. Like I'm going to go with this person because I can see myself succeeding with them. Or I've walked this path. I have already done this and I can show you the track record of me doing it. And You know, so you will be safe in my hands basically, right? I am more likely to get you where you want to go, right? And that's how you convert them. It's all about that setup. You got to get them to pay attention because if they never pay attention, they never get to the point where they convert. You got to get them to relate and say, whoa, okay, actually, I need this. This is crazy. Then you have to add the urgency part of it, which is the consequences for them to say, oh, and I actually want this solved. And then it's just opening the door and saying, oh, and here's my authority. Here's how I can prove to you that I am capable of solving this, or I am the best person to solve it for you. And then they move to wherever you want them to go. Speaker 1: So like one of the things that you showed when you spoke is you said there's 54 character types. There's like three, I don't know what you call them, but three like little components to that. And some of those have multiple types within that component. You got to figure out, okay, out of this one, I'm one of these eight. Now this one, I'm one of these seven or whatever the number is. And you said a lot of people, they don't really sit and analyze that. They look at Gary Vee and they're like, oh, Gary Vee is doing it this way. That's working. Or Mr. Beast is doing it this way. Or Russell Brunson's doing it this way. Or Kevin King's doing it this way. Let me try to copy their style because obviously that works. That converts because whatever they're doing is working. They're successful. And you're like, that's absolutely wrong. And you're actually leaving money on the table by doing that. So what are the three components that make up these 54 character types? And then can you give me, for the audience, someone that they might know, you know, like you gave some examples like here's The Rock and he's somebody that the audience would clearly know. Give a few examples of that. I think that was fascinating and will be very enlightening for people. Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. So it's called charisma styles, right? So there's three charisma style categories that make up the core of who you are. You have to have all three of these to be like your complete self. So first is entertainment, then compassion, and then authority. And they coincide exactly with all the things that we've been talking about, right? Entertainment is how you get people to pay attention to you. Compassion is how you get people to trust you and engage with you. And authority is how you get people to choose you and to move to action. Right, so all three of those charisma styles make up the core of who you are. So within those charisma styles, you are one of each of those. Basically, you think of it as like a recipe. So within authority, we'll start there. With authority, there are three different styles of authority. You are only one of them. And the problem is when people use the one that is not natural to them, that's when they don't convert people. So first, I want you to imagine there's three vehicles. They're all going to a location, right? They're all going to get there at the same time, but the way that they get there is different. Each one of them coincides with a different charisma style. So first we have light authority or light the path. Those people say this bus is going to this location, this bus is the only way that you're gonna get there, all I have to do is convince you to get on the bus. These people are very framework focused and the more they can convince you that this framework is the missing piece, that's all you've been missing, this framework worked for them so this framework will work for you, the more likely people are to move. My favorite example of this is Russell Brunson. He talks about a funnel. He says, if you use a funnel, you will succeed. And the more people believe that a funnel is the thing that they've been missing, the more likely they are to convert with Russell Brunson. So that's light authority. The second one is called lift authority. And lift people say, I think my client should be in the driver's seat. I think I should be in the passenger seat giving them directions, but I want to show them all the people who've succeeded and made the journey exactly like them So that they know that they are capable of making this journey. I am a Lyft. Another example of a Lyft is Ramit Sethi who wrote, I will teach you to be rich. He says, all of the students that I've walked through this program, they have all created their own rich lives from all these different diverse backgrounds. They were all able to do it so you can do it too. Right, the final one is lead authority. And lead authority says, I should be in the driver's seat. I should be the one that takes the turns. All you have to do is get in the back of the car, right? So this is like Tony Robbins. This is you, Mr. Kevin, right? So the more you can convince somebody or show them that you have walked the path, the more likely they are to say, oh, well Kevin knows what he's doing, like he's done it so I can do it too because he's gonna show me all the shortcuts, right? So within those, you are either a light the path, a lift the person or a lead the way, right? When you use your true authority style, then it doesn't come across as salesy, it just comes across as, oh, I know what I'm talking about and I'm gonna help you get there, right? So that's authority. Does that make sense so far? Speaker 1: Perfect. That's awesome. Keep going. I love it. Speaker 2: Great. So the second one, right, is compassion. So this is how you get people to trust you and engage with you like we talked about before. And you're one of these three styles. So we have steady, fix, and mirror. What I want you to imagine is that you've been stabbed in the leg. You've been stabbed in the leg and you have three friends with you. They all deeply care about you. In fact, they all care about you the same amount, but the way that they show that they care about you is different. So you get stabbed in the leg. Steady, the first one, comes over and holds your hand and tells you it's gonna be okay. They're very soft, they're very emotions focused, and that's how they talk about and respond to pain and problems. They're like, oh my gosh, are you, this is gonna be okay. Right, they are called the rock in a lot of times, or in a lot of situations. Then we have fix. So fix, you get stabbed in the leg and fix acknowledges the knife. They're like, whoa, that's a crazy knife, man. Like you are totally responding appropriately. I know. Yep. You, you're, you're nailing it. Right. I, this is, this is an appropriate response based on what you're going through right now. Right. Then mirror, mirror people, uh, respond with reactions. So they're like, oh my gosh, you're crying, I'm gonna cry. Whoa, you're screaming, oh my gosh, I'm gonna scream too, right? They respond by showing you that they're on your team, right? So how you respond and talk about pain and problems, either steady, right? You hold their hand, fix, you acknowledge the knife, right? This is like you, Mr. Kevin, you're a fix. Speaker 1: Yeah, you got me nailed already. You already got me down. Speaker 2: And I'm a mirror, right? So anybody who watches the video example of this, right? You'll see every time that you, Kevin, are speaking, I'm reacting and I'm using my facial expressions because that's how I talk about and respond to pain and problems, right? So steady fix and mirror. So you're one authority and then one compassion. The final one is entertainment. So entertainment is how you get people to pay attention to you, right? This is what we call the fun part of our charisma. So there's six entertainment styles and you're one of them. So first there's Amaze. And Amaze is like Paul Rudd or like Brendan Burchard or Elle Woods. They're very bright and it sounds very much like this, right? Daniel Radcliffe is an Amaze. Then Excite. Excite is all about enthusiasm. This is like Mr. Beast. This is like Mark Rober. This is Russell Brunson. This is Kelly Clarkson, right? It's all about the enthusiasm. Jimmy Fallon is an Excite. The third one is charm. Charm is all about the playfulness. So this is like Ryan Reynolds and like Anna Kendrick, even like a John Krasinski or Jim from The Office, right? They are very like cheeky and playful. That's how they get people to pay attention to them. So that's the first three. Then we have perform. Perform is very theatrical. And the way they get people to pay attention to them is like Robin Williams, right? They're very theatrical and they use like voices and weird facial expressions. I'mma perform. Then we have impress. Impress intensifies with weight and the way that they get people to pay attention to them like Oprah or like Brene Brown, even like The Rock, right? He's an impress as well. I would say you, Kevin, are also an impress, right? You get people to pay attention to you with how you are emphasizing things. And the more intense you feel about something, the more you lean into it. So that's Impress. And then finally, there's Roar. So Roar is like Tony Robbins. It's like Jennifer Lawrence. And they intensify with power. Unknown Speaker: They always feel like they are. Speaker 2: It's just all power forward. So you're one of those six entertainment styles, right? So it's either amaze like Brendan Burchard and Elle Woods, excite like Kelly Clarkson or like Jimmy Fallon, charm like Ryan Reynolds or Anna Kendrick, which is very playful, perform like Robin Williams or like Kate McKinnon from SNL, impress like The Rock or Brene Brown, or roar like Tony Robbins or like Mila Kunis or Jennifer Lawrence. So your recipe, right, your style recipe, what we call it, is your one authority, your one compassion, and your one entertainment style. When you're all three of those, you're the very best version of who you are. That's when you can attract people using your entertainment, you can engage people and make them trust you using your compassion and you can move people using your authority style. So that's what we do with our company and that's what I do with all my coaching is I get people in their charisma styles and I make sure that they're using the right ones so that they are attracting, engaging and converting audiences all day long. Speaker 1: It's really fascinating stuff and I think a lot of people, how do you get someone, so if someone, like you're working with a client and you, like you just analyzed me, I mean, pretty, really good, right there and we don't know, I mean, we've talked one time before and that's it, so you already have figured me out, so that's really good, but where would I, if you were advising me and coaching me, When maybe I be making a mistake, if I'm like doing a presentation, I'm trying to be a roar guy instead of an impressed guy and that's where you have to dial someone back and say, no, quit trying to be like Tony Robbins. You need to be this and focus in on this and your message delivered in that way and that's what you reel in. And when people do that, they all of a sudden just shoot up on everything, right? Speaker 2: I will tell you, it is crazy. It's crazy how fast Charisma Styles works because it's exactly what you just said. It's showing people who they are and then we do what's called a charisma counterpart. So I show you like this celebrity is not only the same styles as you, but you can model them exactly, right? This celebrity or this business person so that you can see what your own charisma kind of looks like. Cause there's only 54 different style recipes or style combinations. So people are the same. Right. And then. We just make you yourself, right? What people don't realize is they've actually, they have been building the skillset of attracting, engaging and converting people, right? In their lives, their entire lives, right? But then when they think it comes to business or sales, they try to start to like learn new skills or things that they've never done before instead of using the ones that they already have. So at the beginning, it's just kind of getting you out of your own head and saying like, okay, you know, I know you are trying to be a roar because you feel like you are maybe, Maybe you don't have enough energy, so you're trying to model Tony Robbins. Instead, I'm gonna give you somebody who has high energy, who's your same charisma styles. Model them instead, right? Or saying like, oh, I'm not enough like this person, this person sells more than me. I'm like, oh, okay, let me give you somebody to model, who's your exact same charisma styles, who sells a lot of stuff. So that you can stop thinking like you as yourself are not enough or are too much or whatever. And we just center you and we teach you to use the skills that you've always had, right? And that's, yes, that's why it works so fast because people, we just teach them to be themselves. And then we teach them to be themselves in different environments. And it's amazing. It is so cool. Speaker 1: It's so fun. Yeah, it's really cool. Do you only attract other people in your, that match you or, So you attract across the spectrum and then it's like out of the 54, there's six of them or I don't know, I'm just making stuff up here, six of them that you're going to repel but you don't want them. I always say, one of my sayings in business is you're not pissing someone off, you're not doing a good enough job. If you're not isolating people, you're trying to attract too many people, you're trying to appeal to too many people but does this apply to charisma styles too where there's certain ones, you know, like signs of zodiac, certain ones bond together and certain ones don't or is it. Speaker 2: It's a great question. So what we have found, we have found that people who are in their charisma styles attract people and people who are out of their charisma styles or using the wrong ones for them repel people. So the way that I want you to think about it is what we are doing with Charisma Styles, because we are truly just making you who you are, we ask all of our clients, would you be more likely to sell somebody or convert them or whatever if you could establish a relationship with them first, if they knew you beforehand? And all of them say, yeah. And I say, okay, well, all we're doing is we're speeding up the timeline on that. We're getting people to know the real you. So if they would like you and trust you and right, follow your advice and stuff in real life, Then when you are in your charisma styles on video, then they would like you and trust you and move and do what you say on video as well. So if they would not like you in real life after trying to get to know you, then they shouldn't like you on video either, right? What it does is it just opens up the door on so many more people that would be attracted to you, but just happened to see a video of you where you were not being yourself. So they weren't attracted to you because you weren't being yourself. You know what I mean? It's the reason why people say you need so many touches with people online. It's so that you have more than one chance, right? It's like people spend so much on ads because they're like, oh, well, the first video that they saw of me, that wasn't all the way myself. Maybe they'll get used to me and right by touch 27 or whatever, like maybe I'll convert them. If we can get them to like us immediately, then all of a sudden those touches go down significantly and then we move people, we move people so much faster. Yeah, we haven't seen anything in our data. A lot of people ask that question, but we haven't seen anything in our data that says like ROARs are attracted to ROARs or anything like that. Speaker 1: It's authenticity. People are attracted to authenticity. Authenticity, whether they agree with whatever you're doing or whatever your general message is, they're still attracted to the authenticity. Speaker 2: Yes, it's all about the authenticity and it's fun. It's fun because Everywhere else outside of all the Charisma Hacking, Charisma Styles things, people just stop there. They say, oh, be authentic or be yourself. And then people end up getting really frustrated because they're like, I don't know what that means. Like, how am I supposed to be myself? I'm trying to be myself. Like, maybe I don't know who myself is. Right. And the cool thing about Charisma Styles and all the formulas that we have is we have We've created a science around teaching you to be yourself, right? And we know when you are being yourself, when you're not being yourself, we have audience data that says like, depending on which style you're trying to model that's not your own, we know what the audience thinks of you. So we also can reverse engineer it that way. So it's like if an audience sees you as obnoxious or aggressive, we know which style you're trying to use that's not your own. And we'd say, oh, okay, well, we just need to have you use this one, which is really fun. Speaker 1: And I think this applies to Beyond just the human being, but into a brand, you can take these same concepts that we just discussed. What does your brand represent? What is your brand and all your messaging, all your advertising, whether that's you as the face or the message, if you figure this out, I think that can explode your brand. You look at some of the top brands, I bet if you analyzed Apple and Coca-Cola and some of these and put these into your model of charisma styles, I bet you'll find the same kind of patterns that just happen naturally. And what they do and so i think i think this is brilliant stuff and this is why i want to bring you on because. This is stuff that people, you're not going to get this in some Amazon course or some like Amazon event with a bunch of hacks on how to rank number one on the page or whatever, but this is super important stuff if you want to expand yourself, if you want to grow your business, grow personally and your business, you got to understand these bigger things because it's psychology. Selling is psychology and there's lots of components to psychology and it's not just about the price and just about, you know, do I put a strike through or do I do this or do I put on a coupon or not? There's a lot more to it that makes sense. So this is really cool stuff. So I know you can go to your website and you have like a little, it's pretty cool that you did some sort of like little interactive, you like drag the mouse around, it's like a YouTube mouse drive or something. And you like drag it over, like I'm like this person, I'm like this person. You can kind of get a rough idea of a self-assessment. How would someone do that? How did they get to the website to do that? Speaker 2: Great question. So charismahacking.com will get you in every direction that you want to go. Yeah, we call it our Charisma Styles Estimator. So it helps you estimate your own charisma styles. You just have to make sure that you're not trying to pick the ones you want to be and you're actually picking the ones that you are. So we also have the option for you to send it to like a spouse or a business partner or somebody who can see you where you won't be clouded to be like, I really like Oprah. Maybe I'm going to say I'm like Oprah and they get the wrong results. Yeah. But within the estimator, we have like some trainings that you can get started with. And yeah, it's a fantastic place to start. I will also say though, based on what you just said, when creating this for a brand, one of the most popular things right now is user generated content, right? Or influencer marketing, because people know that people like to work with people with a face. They like to work with people that they know or that they follow and all of this. I think a lot of times what happens is people go behind the scenes because they think that they are not capable of being the face of anything. They say, you know, well I'm not charismatic so I'm not going to do this. And it's just saying like, okay, if you're going to try to use user generated content, why not make you one of them? And even like test this out, right? Why not make you one of the influencers that can help sell your product as well, right? And yeah, I think that more often than not, people feel like it has to be some crazy out there character for them to be able to attract attention when, I mean, there's an audience for every kind of voice, right? If you can attract people in your everyday life and you have Friends and you have family or you have loved ones or you are, you've ever been on dates. Like, you know, you can attract people, you know, you can engage people, you know, you can convert people. So, or make them choose you. And it's just kind of getting out of your own way and saying like, oh, okay, there is a system. I don't have to discount myself right off the bat. And I can lean into this. I can lean into this. I can become the face of my company. And, and I think it would be beneficial. Speaker 1: I wonder if there's a way, you just got me thinking of, to test an influencer. If I'm going to hire a bunch of TikTok people, the traditional thing is you either look at their price, you look at their engagement, you look at their audience size. Those are some of the, there's a few others, but those are some of the common metrics. What if there's a way to actually Before I hired them, put them through some sort of little test to find out what is their attractive character or their charisma style and does that match with my brand or with the message that we're trying to do. That would be a pretty cool vetting process that I think might weed out some bad apples that you would not be happy with and actually help you zero in on the really good ones that are going to really excel your brand. That's interesting. Speaker 2: I would say probably it's like the content that they create, right? Everybody says, you know, especially like on TikTok and stuff, the most popular stuff is the stuff that doesn't look like an ad, right? Because they feel like it's more authentic. And it's all in the delivery of it, right? People can sense the pacing of an app, right? They can sense like that somebody is reading a teleprompter or using a script, right? And it's the equivalent of people being turned off. By a caption that says like, I think this happened to one of the Kardashians a while ago, where they put in what the promoter wanted them to say, but they left in like, Kim should write this in her caption, like from whoever the promoter was, and everybody like totally ragged on it. They were like, Oh my gosh, like, now we're not gonna buy this. Unknown Speaker: Like this is this is so fake. Speaker 2: The equivalent of that, but just in video format, when people sound like they don't actually like a product, right? Or when they sound like they're doing an ad and people are just turned off by it, right? So it says, it's just saying like, okay, when people are delivering, you know, the ad for your product, it's making sure that they are in their own charisma styles. It's making sure that they are, you know, being authentic and attracting your audience to them, right? Because if they are, if you pay them to do an ad and the ad doesn't do well, right? You wasted a lot of money. So yeah, it's just making sure that they do it in their charisma styles. Speaker 1: Awesome. Now, McCall, you're going to be joining us in Hawaii here in a few months, I understand. You and your husband are going to be coming out and joining us. Most of you know that I'm doing my Billion Dollar Seller Summit at May 18th to the 23rd at the Grand Hyatt in Kauai. And then right after that, we're doing a level up event. It's an optional event. It's going to be a little bit smaller, more intimate, but it's for people that are empire builders that want to level up their game and want to like get outside of this box and actually Really maximize their potential and you're gonna be speaking at that some about what we just talked about and some some other cool stuff and then I think you're getting you and your husband gonna be hanging around the whole BDSS as well and just so people get to know you and I'm really looking forward to that. Speaker 2: I'm really excited. Yeah, we're so excited. Thanks for having us. We it's so fun. It's so fun. Honestly, there's so many things with charisma styles and yeah, it's it's nice. We like to hang around the events because a lot of times people be like, how does this apply to me and they want to know right there. So it's yeah, it's fun to it's fun to be able to mingle with the people. Speaker 1: That's right. It's gonna be cool. Awesome. Well, I really appreciate your time today. This has been great. I love it. We've been talking for about 10 minutes. Oh, no, wait. It's been an hour and six minutes. Feels like 10 minutes. You got my attention, you engaged me, and then you closed me. Speaker 2: Yes. Speaker 1: There you go. Good job, McCall. Speaker 2: Awesome. Speaker 1: Again, how do people find out more about you? What's the website again? And what's the best way if they want to know more? Speaker 2: Yep, charismahacking.com. Speaker 1: Awesome. And for people that don't know how to spell charisma, how do you spell that? Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. This was the bane of our existence at the beginning. I started calling it Charisma so that people would spell it right. C-H-A-R-I-S-M-A Hacking, H-A-C-K-I-N-G dot com. You see, I had to look up to make sure that I was doing it right. Unknown Speaker: Charisma. Speaker 1: Awesome. Thanks again, McCall. Appreciate it. Speaker 2: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. Speaker 1: We'll see you soon. Awesome, awesome stuff with McCall there. I really enjoyed that conversation. I hope you did too. You know we get caught up on as Amazon sellers in our own little world just worried about how do we can rank number one, how we can get hijackers off our listing, what's the latest hack and trick and we lose sight of some of the big picture things that are really important that can really move the needle and Charisma Hacking is one of them. I hope you got a lot from this and I hope you can join us in Hawaii where McCall will be as well in a couple months speaking at the Level Up event as part of the Billion Dollar Seller Summit. Before I go, I've got some words of wisdom for you, kind of along the lines of what we talked about today. You know, you've got to understand your brand as a character and a collaborative performance. Understand how your brand is a character and a collaborative performance. If you know who you are, you know how to behave. Understand how your brand is a character and a collaborative performance. Know who you are, you know how to behave. We'll see you again next week with another awesome episode of the AM PM Podcast. Take care.