#321 - From Side Hustle To 7-Figures, Erin Graybill Tells Her Story

#321 - From Side Hustle To 7-Figures, Erin Graybill Tells Her Story Speaker 1: Welcome to episode 321 of the AM-PM Podcast. My guest this week is Erin Graybill, a dual citizen of the UK and the US. She started selling in the UK back in 2014 and only recently has actually migrated over to North America. We talk about her story, about how she differentiates her product and how she struggled to let go and actually build a team so that she could really grow her business. I think you're going to enjoy this episode. Here we go. Unknown Speaker: Welcome to the AM-PM Podcast. Welcome to the AM-PM Podcast. Where we explore opportunities in e-commerce. We dream big and we discover what's working right now. Plus, this is the podcast where money never sleeps. Working around the clock in the AM and the PM. Are you ready for today's episode? Speaker 2: I said, are you ready? Let's do this. Here's your host, Kevin King. Speaker 1: Erin, welcome to the AM-PM Podcast. It's an honor to have you here. How are you doing today? Speaker 2: I am doing so well. It is actually a massive honor for me to be here talking to you because I must say you were the first, the very first Amazon guru that I ever heard that I took advice from and used. So this has like been a dream. Really? Speaker 3: Oh, wow. Speaker 2: Yes, indeed. Speaker 1: That's awesome. When, when was that? When did you first hear me speak? Was it on stage somewhere or was it on a podcast? Speaker 2: No, I didn't go to any conferences in the beginning. This was actually 2016. I was in my studio apartment and I found, I think it was Matt Ward's podcast. I believe it was that one or early AM PM one or the other. I can't remember, but it was a creative hack on how to get customers to convert feedback into reviews if you do it manually. Successfully did it in the UK and then expanded into Europe and did it all over Europe. And that was the key to a hero product that we still sell today because we have so many reviews. So thank you for that, Kevin. Speaker 1: Oh, you're welcome. You probably, you probably can't do that hack anymore. Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it was like a manual one just to be like, what I really liked about it was it's quite intuitive because customers don't have time. Right. So it's like the right feedback. So you just send them a quick message and be like, thank you so much. You know, basically explaining the difference between reviews and feedback and then copying and pasting what they wrote as feedback. So all they have to do on their phone is a quick copy paste then give an individual a voucher code just as a thank you for supporting them. Speaker 1: Ah, okay. I remember that one now. Speaker 2: Yeah, it was so good because it's so true. Just imagine like, you know, I was living in the UK. You're at like a, you know, at a bus stop. It's raining. You're not going to rewrite a review, but I'm like, oh, that's nice. You reached out. You gave me a voucher code. Like, oh, absolutely. More than happy to. Copy paste. Work the dream even across Europe too, which is usually harder to do so. So yeah, that was like, I just, yeah, we still use it, but we don't get as much feedback or we can't. Speaker 3: Yeah. Speaker 1: I don't think it works as well anymore. Speaker 2: They never get the emails, but anyways, skipping into it. But yeah, so I was like full circle moment for me. I was like, ah, now we're talking, so this is fun. Speaker 1: Awesome. Awesome. And so how long have you been selling on Amazon? Speaker 2: Technically 2014 was my first sale. December 2014. That was in the UK. Speaker 1: So really 2015. So you don't have a British accent. So were you living in the UK or did you just decide to start selling in the UK? Speaker 2: No, I was actually living there. I did kind of the backwards thing to most sellers. So I started, it was a side hustle. I lived in the UK, rewinding back for almost 15 years. So I'm a dual citizen, but I'm a West Coast American. I'm born and raised there. Went over to the UK, studied, was kind of complaining my scholarship wasn't paying me well enough and one of my friends kind of called me out and was like, why don't you make more money then? I was like, oh. Okay. And then heard about this Amazon FBA thing. So I was in the UK and I was like, what could I develop and sell? I was studying international trade economics. And so, yeah, I started sourcing October and then had products already in December, two different products. I was obsessed from day one. So, yeah. Speaker 1: So did you take a course or did you learn by watching online stuff or how did you? Speaker 2: My ex now is he had done ASM so I knew he was selling on Amazon. He's always like you should do it you should do it and I was like I'm busy whatever but the day I decided so I kind of like almost I got like the kind of a summary I watched one One module, but I was a bit impatient, but this was back in the day where once I figured out you could look in browse nodes, right? And I love it when I could talk to people that's done, who's done the 999, like the real OGs. So it's like, you can look in browse nodes. And when I realized you could do that and then start stocking volume and I could like, I could do better. I could do better. So, so that was how I did my product research. So I was kind of introduced to like how to look at browse nodes and assess volume. But in the UK, there wasn't Jungle Scout. There wasn't anything late 2014. So once I had my little spreadsheet going, then it was just self-taught podcasts, asking questions, but yeah, failing a lot, but getting back up. Speaker 1: Those that haven't been doing this as long as you and I, I started FBA in 2015. I started selling on Amazon in 2001, but the FBA model in 2015, they don't realize, like you just said, there wasn't a Jungle Scout or Helium 10 or these tools. I think there was a precursor to managed by stats or something like that. There's a few little things, but tell us how the old days, how did you actually pick a product and people are going to be probably flabbergasted about this. How did you pick a product in 2014? Speaker 2: It was, I just literally went to the top, just like the top browse notes, you know, I'm like, Oh, beauty top 100 in beauty. Like what, what do I fancy selling there? What looks nice, you know? And I was kind of like, okay, eliminate brands. And then I was like, what is, and then, then what I love doing to this day is I'm like, Oh, jump on Alibaba. So kind of like what we do now, but a lot more rough where I was like, um, I'm, if I'm not secretive about one of my, um, I've got a few brands. One of the main ones is cosmetic accessories. We sell makeup brushes. I didn't know how to use makeup brushes. I saw one. I ordered it because I was like, well, that's on Alibaba. And then I was like, ew, this looks cheap. It looks horrible. And then I was like, I can make it look better. So that's how I found one was in the top 100 for beauty. I was like, not that many reviews ordered it. It's stonk. It was horrible. And I'm like, They were selling at a price that they shouldn't have been. And then I did the same thing in men's wallets, oddly enough. So, so deacted, did the same, same for both where you're just like, I'm like, ooh, top 100 in luggage. And I had my little 999 sheet of, I do number one in the browse node, and then 50. So you can get an idea of depth because, you know, I wasn't looking at sub browse nodes. This was 2014 in the UK, you go right for the top ones. So, so that was, it was kind of a bit of, Order it and I'm like, I can absolutely do better because there weren't many people doing good products. And, you know, of course I didn't do these things, but launching was a little different as far as getting reviews. And, you know, those crazy kids were doing some things where you could write your own reviews, et cetera, et cetera, Fiverr. People, you know, so it was potentially a little easier. Speaker 1: You could actually get reviews for, for basically for free back then. Just as long as they put, I received this product in exchange for my opinion or something. That was the days where it was just easy. Speaker 2: I heard you could spend $5 and write your own review and someone would, someone would post it, pictures, everything. It wouldn't say a thing, nothing. It was crazy. Speaker 1: Yeah. That was like 2013, 2014. You could actually do that. Yeah. Speaker 2: And in the UK, I didn't do those things, but you know, um, it was just, it was just a lot different, but I guess where I felt I was like, I really tried to make the product better. Um, and it was potentially what slowed the growth in the beginning is because I ordered little batches of these two things, um, sold them all in December. And then at that point realized, I just wanted to make sure the products were as good as I was saying they were. I was really, really obsessed with exceeding customer expectations, even if I could sell, get away with less. So kind of missed that first Chinese New Year boat, trying to make things better and kind of, it was a bit slow that first six months to a year, but I was also a PhD student first year. So it was a side hustle. Speaker 1: So how much in sales did you do that first year in 2014? You said you were just a small amount. Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh, 2014. Oh, cause that was only a month. I think I actually, I remember I profited 5,000 pounds. So I can't, I don't. Speaker 1: Wow. Speaker 2: Yeah. So that was the thing is my main thing is like, I want to make more money. But then that's when you know, you're an entrepreneur, right? I'm like, but wait, if I put it back into the business. I can make even more money. So I didn't realize I was going to enter like multiple years of being more poor than I'd ever been before trying to make this money, you know, but I feel like that's when you know, you have like the itch for it. So I don't know what that would have been. I think I was selling, I mean, any math whiz is there. So if I made 5,000 profit and I was, it was between 25 and 30 pounds. Speaker 1: So probably about 15,000, 20,000 pounds or something like that. Speaker 2: And that's when, like, was I even doing, I was doing PPC where you just pressed auto. That was it. I was like, I should turn on PPC. Like, Oh, that's nice. Like, you know, turn on the nozzle. And then I think like a two months later I checked and I was like, Oh, ACOS. Oh, it's low. Nice. I should do more of that. So it's easier to learn as you're going when obviously things. We're quite as sophisticated. So you get a handle on everything, your operations, your supply chain, kind of like incrementally bit by bit. Um, I couldn't imagine what it would be like going from, from zero now. I wouldn't want to. Speaker 1: Yeah. It's a, it's a whole different game today. So are you still selling those same products today or, or have those long gone and been replaced? Speaker 2: Gentlemen, I'm sorry to say the wallets have been discontinued, so I no longer have my men's wallet brand, which was a shame. Um, but, but yeah, the, a version of, The very first product, I mean obviously it's been many different ASINs, is the Nira Beauty Artistry Set. Now that is basically what's evolved from that first top 10 scan I did in 2014. It's our top selling set. We've sold off Amazon B2B contracts across Europe, now into Eastern Europe. It's been, and actually this Christmas has been really great as well. So it's been kind of what's carried the brands across. Yeah, a bunch of the bumps, but no, the wallets are gone, which is a shame. Still have the brand though, you know. We'll see if it'll make a resurgence. It's got a lot of reviews on the ASIN, so anyway. Speaker 1: There you go. So what have you grown it to now? So from those humble beginnings, what is, is it a 7-figure business, an 8-figure business? What are you at today? Multi-7, not an 8 yet, but somewhere between 7 and 8. And selling in the US and the UK and Europe still? Speaker 2: Yes, so we just entered the U.S. in March of 2021, which is crazy. So the whole, yeah, did I think definitely cross the seven-figure mark, maybe into gotten to the multi, early multi before coming to the U.S., was it? Yeah, definitely was like at least at one and a half just in the UK and Europe before maybe two before we considered looking at other options as well. So yeah, that was I was actually scared of the US. I just thought the minute we started selling in the US we'd get hijacked and black hat attacks, which is not too untrue. I will say now but But yeah, so I was actually hesitant. And now it's our biggest growth market. Just launched in Canada as well earlier this year. Speaker 1: What do you find different? Did you take the exact same product and port it over to the US? Or did you actually change it a little bit? Or what do you find different between selling in Europe and the US? Speaker 2: OK. It's kind of like a nuanced question. So as far as product-wise, for the Makeup Brush brand, we took our winning variations that I entered the US market with 6K reviews at 4.8 out of 5 at the time. So that's how we decided to choose one brand. And then I developed a brand new brand. I'll talk first about the difference between the exact same product and the different markets. So I think actually to those sellers that started in the UK and the EU, it's in a lot of ways, if you can make it there, you can make it in the US. If it's a product fit, because it's a lot harder. Every new launch we did in the beauty niche, it would be in five different languages, launching on primarily short tail keywords against Chinese suppliers. And paying VAT, by the way. So everything had to be so tightly run and efficient. Like that was kind of how we grew up, you know, dealing with Italian bloggers, trying to drive some external traffic, but everything was, I didn't realize it was a lot more laborious where getting to the UK or in the US and I was like, What are all these keywords? I'm like, you kids are so spoiled. You have long tails. Like we would have all that we knew what the long tails were in the UK, but like one person a month might buy something. But here it's like we were able to launch a more premium price, some premium price beauty products just off the back of long tails. You guys are so spoiled. There's a lot more competition, but the fact you can build out like sub niches where imagine a short tail word of keywords and beauty. Against Chinese suppliers that are like one third your price across five countries. So we are still doing that. But as far as new launches and stuff, it's I still we've done quite a bit of export off of Amazon as well. So my heart is still with a very international team and I love the idea of Europe, but you know, Profit wise, as far as Amazon, the path of least resistance is to do more in the U.S. right now. Speaker 1: In the UK, up until just recently, you're talking about competing against Chinese sellers. A lot of those, they weren't even paying back. So they had, I mean, until recently, Amazon's cracked down on that. Some of them may still be skirting it a little bit, but they cracked down on that. So for a long time there, for the first five, six years, you were competing at a major disadvantage. Speaker 2: I was just like a bitter Betty about it, but it's like, what was I going to do? I would take the risk as a British company with British employees and probably like go to jail to not pay VAT to compete. You just couldn't do that. So we were, especially with our B2B sales, we were registered across all the European markets through Amazon, but also a couple of Scandinavian countries as well. Speaker 1: But, but now you're back living in the US. Is that correct? Speaker 2: Yeah. So I was living in Northeastern England near, kind of, kind of near Scotland and now I live in Miami. Exactly the same. Forget where I am. Speaker 1: So on the makeup brushes, that's a, that's a highly competitive niche. I actually sold makeup brushes in 2015 and 2016. And yeah, actually what I did is I did a set. So I looked on there and I was like, I don't want to sell these brushes for $4.99 or $5.99. I want to actually do something where I can actually distinguish it. So I've dealt with, in one of my other businesses, we've dealt with models and photo shoots and fashion photo shoots and stuff for a long time. So I had a general sense of it. So I went out to a bunch of makeup artists that we were using and said, what would be the perfect makeup brush set for you? And they said, oh, it should have this one and this one and this one. And I ended up creating like a 21 brush set and put it in a nice like leather case. And the company was called Elite Beauty and Illuminate was the other brand name that we did. We did makeup brushes. We did mirrors, little travel mirrors, little desktop mirrors, all kinds of stuff. But But when we came up with this brush set, I was selling it for $39.95. 21 brushes in a nice leather case and I just could not compete. I could not get that $39 price point to stick on page one because everybody else, mostly Chinese-based sellers, were selling a brush for $5.99. So the page one was just full of like $5.99 one or two set brushes. And so I ended, I would do a promotion, get to page one, sell a bunch, and then I'd just fall off to page two or page three. And it was a constant fight. So I ended up just creating like a two brush sample set just to get on that 599 price point and then putting a variation on it for the 3995 one. And It still was very, very difficult to compete. So how did you, how did you compete? Maybe in Europe it wasn't that difficult, but how did you, what did you do to differentiate to make your brushes stand out against the guys that are just all race to the bottom on pricing? Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. It was like that from the beginning. It's interesting. We had, we had similar approaches, but in parallel sides of the pond is that like after that first December where I sold my batch, cause it's a set as well. The top selling, I'm products within the Nira Beauty brand. So it was the same. I kept 10 of them aside and I gave them to estheticians and makeup artists. I was like, tell me what you don't like. And they're like, why would I do that? Because British people are quite polite. I was like, no, if you tell me, I'll make it better. It's quite a few iterations to make it better. So I think part of it was also intuitive bundling because I kind of looked at what would be nice to go next. So it comes in like a storage capsule, which is good for travel. Then I decided to add a makeup, a silicone, like basically a brush cleaner and put that in with our customer experience as well. So we're like, You know, you should wash your brushes once a week and here's something to actually do that with. Here's a sponge in case you use that as well. So it was also just the way it was presented. The pictures were better and then we got really, really good reviews. Had some makeup artists actually contact me. We started sponsoring masterclasses as well. So we had a lot of really, really great content. And then part of it too was when once I had it down to kind of a science in the UK about this set. Early 2016 entered into Europe early and then went hard on trying to get reviews by doing the proactive customer service when people were still actually checking their email. So part of it was superior product that we were always tweaking to do. I say we. I still didn't have a team at that point. It was always tweaking to try to make it look nicer. Pictures, bullets, etc. And then Getting those reviews and then when they all started getting bundled together, then it was crazy. So we were actually the top converting product in the makeup brush set niche. I say like a like a not really like Not like a, you know, real techniques or like a, so we had all the cheap tat basically, the really, you know, you get 32 brushes for $8. Like I literally still don't know how those factories even make money. And then you'd have real techniques, which if you're probably aware, it's like a really popular brand. And then you have us. So we always just kind of stuck until we had, now we have a few dupes. So we're able to just build that momentum and keep making the set better, but not changing the brushes. It was just more the packaging or, and then we kept getting all those reviews. Because we did as much as we could with customer service while we were able to. And then by the time we entered the US, because to be fair, if I would have tried with Neeray years earlier, especially without all the reviews, I think it would have been the same thing. How do you get on page one? We're around $50 now. And it's because of the cluster of long tail keywords that Match customer intent. The big guys on the top of page one are still absolutely selling massive volumes for breakeven. Gotta be breakeven for some of these factories in the US. So I think it's just the now the market has more pockets of richer keywords, long tail keywords that are associated with enough revenue to make it worth your while. Speaker 1: So are you doing anything along this way as you're, you were a superior product, kind of right place, right time and able to, to, to build that moat. Were you doing anything at the same time to actually build a list of any kind, like an SMS list, an email list? Uh, were you giving away a free brush if they signed up for a makeup tutorial or something? Speaker 2: This is where it's like my biggest, like I can do a whole podcast on failures. So this is before the U S was just one kind. I tried doing these things across five countries. I gave away so many lip brushes and I had this list of like 5,000 people across Europe that just want free stuff that I didn't know what language to launch to. So like I did. I tried. I tried once with that. But it was also kind of cart before the horse with with the beauty brand is that Never got that far outside of brushes. So it's kind of like how about you buy more brushes? How about one for your friend without having that fully built out? consumable also, you know, so I just had an annual meeting today this morning and that's a huge thing for next year is to finally really try to build out an audience and we have a QR code on our packaging that just goes to a I have a joke right now, you know, kind of to make customers smile. It's dynamic so we can change it. You know, it was like a good pun, but yeah. So, so that's something where I tried and failed a lot. Spent a whole year trying to work on the B2B side with professional makeup artists. Got all the content. Kevin, I have videos of Nere brushes in Milan, in Paris, in London, the best makeup artists using them. I've got all the evidence in the world that this is a top class makeup brush, but it just wasn't enough. Um, to, to actually even get the makeup artist niche because there's so many other more well-established brands. And since it was my, my bad to not Find a way to pick the right consumables, you know, so so yeah, this is the first brands kind of in my baby where I've made all the mistakes and so Now then we actually called a lot of the SKUs two years ago and just focused on profitability So we had other makeup brushes, you know, so we had two sets. We're like if you have this one Here's what's missing like all the technical it's the best, you know instead of 24 brushes you'd ever need having both of them, but the average customer on Amazon was like I They kind of look the same. I'll take the one with more reviews. So had to go in really unemotionally and call a lot of the additional sets that were taking up inventory, profiting if only just a little without that bigger thing. So there's still opportunity, but I work to do in that department. Speaker 1: So are you hoping to exit any of these brands or are you just right now just enjoying the creative process and building them? Speaker 2: Yeah, the latter. Yeah. It was kind of like beginning of 2021. I started thinking like, oh, is there something wrong with me? Like I should exit. Everybody's exiting. And I think it's the right choice for a lot of people. But at least right now across the three brands, I really enjoy what I do. And part of my why is developing opportunities for my team. I'm very team focused. As well, so I think we're at a point now where we're making some really good momentum and we can get more efficient. There's a lot more we could be doing across the three brands before it even beyond my mind. I want to say no, I don't ever want to but you can't ever you can't ever say that but it's it's just it's just not really my motivation because it is the joy is creating these beautiful stunning products and An additional joy has been creating a team that carries that passion as much and if not more so than me. That's been so amazing because I just never thought anyone would be obsessed as me. I was like, oh my gosh, that's why we have a headquarters, an actual physical headquarters. We take all of our own pictures. I want everyone, before a copywriter writes bullets, I want everyone in the office I'm physically unboxing the competitor. I want you to know what the expectation is for the customers that's going to be buying from us and how you market and how you write and how you design products. It was like, how do you replicate what you did on your own? It was me in my studio apartment ordering the competitors being like, that's crap, that's crap, that's crap. That's good. I'll do that too. Because I just think you really miss a step not forgetting that on Amazon, we sell stuff. Unknown Speaker: So make your stuff better. Speaker 2: And then make it another step above better. Think of what's coming next because at the end of the day I do like to tell myself marketing is of course extremely important. Make sure the stuff is good. Speaker 1: Marketing is also part of what you just said. That experience when that box comes, when those makeup brushes come, that experience of opening it right there. That is super important. Most people, they skip that step because that's what's going to help you get the good reviews. That's what's going to help you get the good word of mouth. That's what's going to help you. Someone taking a picture and sharing it on their social media. Look what I just got from Amazon. And so many people forget about that experience. It's also, it reinforces that they made the right decision because sometimes people are like, hey, I just spent $50 for these makeup brushes. Man, was that a mistake? But when they get a nice box, it's a nice unboxing experience. They're like, this is cool. This was worth it. Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. It's like what I try. It's like the art of making something look expensive. Like you're like, oh, what do you mean looks expensive? Like it's not just it's like the little things like does all the paper match. Do you have the same rose gold foil that starts it doesn't match the The snap of the button doesn't match the ferrule. It's all these little cues it gives your brain because the human brain is a bit greedy, right? You're like I spent 50 but I want to feel like I spent 75. Even better if I'm gifting it, I'll look even better. I'll look better if I gift you something expensive and even better if it wasn't. So it's kind of like breaking down the science of make it look expensive. Without being as expensive. So that's kind of what we do. Make stuff look expensive. Speaker 1: That's that's what I do too. And just just last on last week's episode, Norm Farrar was on and he was talking about some knives that they sell. And these knives, I think they cost them or maybe it's a knife. I'm sorry. It cost him like three or four dollars. It was his landing costs and they were selling them for 20 or 25 bucks or something like that. Just by changing the packaging and the presentation, they were able to take that as high as two hundred dollars. And spent about three or four dollars, I think he said, on a really nice cool packaging and changing it up. And they were able to completely change the perceived value on that. And it's so important in today's world of just selling another commodity or another thing on Amazon. You've got to start thinking about that. It's like you're saying, building the brand and building that experience. And that's crucial. And you understand that, but unfortunately, most sellers don't. And they're just looking for shortcuts and the cheapest way out. And it's just, they're not going to last. Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh, no, I definitely agree. But it's just kind of getting over myself too when sometimes, you know, Sometimes we have to do things a bit cheaper too, but not less than what we do, but I'm totally on the same page. It's all those little things that people remember. And it's funny, actually, because it makes a lot of things that wouldn't. Now we do everything that's obviously giftable, but in the beginning with makeup brushes, because of that, that premium packaging, it also, you know, in business at networking events, you meet a lot of males and They'd be like, oh, you sell makeup brushes. I'm like, well, that has nothing to do with me. I was like, actually, in fourth quarter, 35% of our customers are men. Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 2: I was like, because it looks expensive and it's in a nice box, and we put a picture of a happy girl in a boat, like, we're in your head. This is about you. So we're making it easier for you. I've even thought, I was like, I should just do a brand of just stuff for women marketed for men. But the women would have to like it as well. But just kind of with that psychology of gifting. So yeah. I guess we all roads keep leading back to giftable things, but I think that just goes to the passion of we just love everything from start to finish where it might be a little harder if we sold like Actually, who knows? I don't know other niches besides what we've done. Everything's always been in nice boxes. Speaker 1: I mean, like a makeup brush, if I'm a woman and I need to buy a makeup brush set, I might go and buy it. But when it comes in a nice packaging, it's not just giftable for I'm buying this for my mother-in-law or for my daughter or something like that, but it's a gift to you. And when it comes in a nice presentation, you're like, I just treated myself. I didn't just buy some makeup brushes, but I just treated myself. And it makes you feel good. Speaker 2: Yeah. And we like putting little affirmations, you know, kind of like, hi, beautiful, hi, pretty, or like sneak in a pun there every once in a while, you know, just to kind of make people smile. So, so yeah, you can talk about this all day. Speaker 1: QR code. You said people scan a QR code. It's just to make them smile. You said it's like a little joke or something. Yeah. Speaker 2: It's like, it's a pun joke. Yeah. About makeup brush. Oh, no spoiler alert. Everyone has to go out and buy the set and find out on their own, but, but it's dynamic. So yeah, we're going to try to put some links to some like helpful tutorials or, you know, just a bit, a bit more content for people, but, but yeah, lots in store for next year. Speaker 1: I hope you're at least pixeling on one day when they scan that QR code. Speaker 2: Yeah. I need to look, it's on my notes. Like, you know, when you have an annual meeting, it's just like, like, there's a lot of things I need to need to double check. But I was just kind of like, Print them first. You need to get obsessed. Get the QR code on there. What are you going to do with it? I don't know. It's dynamic. I'll worry about it later. Just get it on there. I need to actually figure that out. Speaker 1: Speaking of annual meetings, you're big on, like you said, on team and systems and stuff. Is that correct? I mean, you're really big on... Where does that come from? Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. Um, it came off the back of pretty much total and complete burnout. That's, that's when I kind of had my, my moment of realizing I needed to change things. So I, as I mentioned before, started in 2014. And then at the end of 2018, kind of crossed that line that you think now you should have made it, you know, when you listen to the podcast, cross the seven figure line. I had a team of about eight people including placement students and I realized at that point that I was so burnt out physically, mentally, was working ridiculous hours and I had a team that were looking to me on how to act and how to be because I worked with a lot of interns and graduate students and I just felt like I couldn't You know, as entrepreneurs, we can do a lot. We can spin a lot of plates. You can burn yourself out. You can go and go and go. But at some point, it's like something's got to give. So I ended up going to a conference, Capcom actually, Ryan Daniel Moran's conference in Dallas and met some other entrepreneurs. I heard a particular teams person speaking, Alex Sharfin. Some of his ideas ended up studying all of his stuff, listening to all of his podcasts, worked with my team, and then realized that the biggest thing that I needed was a team to get out ahead of me. Because I'm more, I think there's, with entrepreneurs, sometimes you're more visionary or operational as far as how you work, right? And if you are a visionary entrepreneur, it's like you have the ideas, you like strategy, but you often get bogged down in so much of the tactical that your team literally has no idea what's next. The things that excite us as entrepreneurs If I say, Kevin, I want a 5X next year, I'm like, we're going to go for it. It's like we get excited and we're like, yeah, think big. But if there's not an actual plan, and if that doesn't actually happen at the end of the year, your team loses faith in you and what's going on. Goals mean nothing. Targets mean nothing, which means they don't know how to support you. It was a lot of training myself. I'm still me. I'm still the entrepreneur. I love the idea of a good New idea, like new revenue, etc. But it's kind of structuring things basically to protect the team from me. So getting the team out ahead to get put my ideas into reality, but then also, you know, stopping me from going to like click funnels and running back and being like, Hey, guys, now we're gonna do this. Because it's a quote that I really, really like is, was it quitting the addiction to new is the commitment to mastery. So As much as it sucks. I think that's the main lesson as an entrepreneur. Once you get that is when you're kind of starting to grow up a little bit. I still have. I am still new in my journey. I'm feral. I've never even worked corporate before. I figured this stuff out on my own, like not trying to say I have it figured out, but really kind of getting that lesson is we are all wired to be shiny thing object addicts, but you can let that addiction keep you as like a, I got 10 different hustles versus a massive scale entrepreneur. Yeah. So you have to get your, Stuff together basically with team and with that is the stuff that we avoid more than anything else, which is structure, process and routine. It gave me hives at first to actually think to have those types of things in advance, but that's when you really start to flow. You have a team that's a lot more invested because as entrepreneurs we think people think like us and most people don't. And the people you need working for you shouldn't think like you. It'd be a hot mess if you just have a lot of people that think like you all together. So really it took about a year and a half of studying and putting systems into place where I have amazing operational talent within my team. Thank God. I think one of my strengths is realizing what I'm crap at, making sure I have that in there. Part of it is forward planning. That has been such a game changer. Like I said, we just had our annual meeting, which means our Our revenue objectives are how many reviews we hope to get. It sounds crazy, but we actually forecast all of this now. So we know the high-level things we're going to do, we're not going to do. And then by the time first quarter starts, we have a meeting and we tell the whole team, here's what we're doing first quarter. Nothing's a surprise. People know what they have ownership and that goes down. From annual down to meetings that we have daily. So without getting into the details of all the different ways we do things, it's actually set us free because we're all moving together with a similar like rhythm towards a common goal that's actually achievable. We set our financial objective. Like, you know, I said the kind of stuff like my secret entrepreneur objective is higher than what we said. Unknown Speaker: I'm like, no, we're going to do more. Speaker 2: I'm sure we'll do more because I don't care if we don't. It excites me thinking maybe we can't, right? But what we actually set It's like you kind of bring the target in closer so you could hit it. So then you know what winning feels like. And then setting that up for the team. The team wants a place to show up and win. So they can be winning. You can still be casting your vision out ahead, but communicating it in a format that's not going to burn anybody out. So sometimes I'm kind of like, oh man, I'm boring now. I don't go run after the stuff I used to. But I think the truth is somewhere in the middle, definitely. But that's been the biggest I guess hack for me. So that's why I know how we were introduced is that like I, I've shared, I don't gain anything from it. Just kind of like what I do with friends. You want to know how we do stuff with team? Here's my laptop. Let me just run you through how we do things. You can just see. Maybe it'll help you. Maybe it won't. But it's making sure we're always reaching out to see if people... For example, one thing that people can take away if you've got a team that you can't talk to everyone, but you still want to know what's going on. At the end of every week, we have everybody do a weekly report, which you report on what did you think was a win? One way, well, as metric based as possible is great. And then we ask every single week, where do you need support? We're actually asking people to complain. Where do you need support? But a lot of times you might think, oh, they're just going to complain. Sometimes you get that. Sometimes you get nothing, but sometimes you get people actually solving things. One time our comms person was like, where do I need support? It's like, you know what? I'm kind of annoyed because I feel like I shouldn't be the one that is liaising with the translators when we're doing European launches. I don't think it's as efficient. I think it'd be better if it was the designer. I've talked to him. He thinks it's a good idea. Can we do it? And I was like, Yes, absolutely. So if they know it's like a safe place all the time within a structure that is forward looking repeatable and has a rhythm that doesn't like stress them out. It's amazing how much you as the visionary entrepreneur can be in a position where you're like in a bird's eye view of seeing what's going on instead of before I started on this journey. I would show up at my desk. I had like Three placement students. I didn't know what they did like bless them. Thank you for the work that you did. I was just like bringing getting funding where I could like bringing all these people and I was like a big hurricane. I checked my email and I'd react that that's what I would do and that was that was my day and then I would work until it was dark and then that that's that's what I would do. I'm not saying you don't still have to roll up your sleeves, but having that structure and process as much as entrepreneurs would naturally resist it. It's actually It sets you so much more free. Speaker 3: How hard was it for you to let go? Speaker 2: So it was really hard. Absolutely. Yeah, it's really and it's you still struggle with that. And that's why I feel like entrepreneurship and business, it's like a spiritual journey. It's like every time you think your stuff like you get poked and you know, you get triggered with stuff. And I think there's a huge problem I see with a lot of entrepreneurs and in myself, but especially in the Amazon space is people don't want to let things go and they bottleneck it. And the thing is, okay, here's the deal. Some people are not going to like this. I think there's two reasons. There's two reasons why people don't let things go. Number one is they think they're special. You know, like, no one can do it like me. No one will be as good as me. I can't hire anyone. Okay, fair. If you actually think that, then you're right. And then you're a bottleneck, you know, like, they might not do it exactly like you, but There could be a process put together where people could be at a template, be at whatever. So it's really kind of getting over that ego part of it. It's like with me, I'm still like, I'm really good at product development. I'm really good. It's like, really? Or do you just like what you do? Like, you're good, but like, can you make space? Because if you don't, Are you a product developer or are you a CEO? You got to make that decision. So if you want to be in a strategic place, you got to check your ego and it's tough and you know, and it's kind of like I've got all my little cliche terms. If there's a need to complain, there's a need to train. Well, they're crap at it. It's like, okay, well maybe they are, but however, like how good was the process? Did you set them up for success? What does it look like? And you have to realize it's not going to be you. But are you a CEO or are you a doer of the things? And there was a lot of brilliantly, tactically talented people in the e-commerce space. So I'm challenged on this quite a bit. You know, go to masterminds or people like no one's better at. You know, PPC than me or whatever. I'm like, potentially, by the end of the day, are you a PPC guy? Are you? It depends on what kind of business you want to run. You know, like if it's like a packaged up Amazon business to sell versus like a, like a structure based company. And the second reason this is like, people don't want to let go is because they like, you like to feel You also like to feel important. If things are bottlenecking on you, that means people are asking you questions all the time. Like, Erin, what do you think of this? Do you need this? Will you look at this? Will you approve this? And sometimes, yes, you need to do the final sign up on things. But other times, people actually low-key like it when people are coming to you all day, which could be cool. I have an open door policy. It's like, Okay, cool. But like at the end of the day, are you fully positioned to be strategic in your business at that point, you know, where, because you can structure things where you have the metrics you need, and you have times where you meet with people from different departments. There always are fires to put out. So it's not like, sorry, process says this, we're under a black hat attack, and you can't talk to me. But I think it's like kind of really looking at yourself. And, and if in part of it is like, okay, fair, like, if you really enjoy doing some of the tactical things, it's just like, Are you able to like, you know, do that next level strategic role as well? Because doing both sometimes you can't if it takes that much time. So I think that's like the main thing with bottlenecking because that's like, and I'm fully still guilty of a lot of these things. On the annual meeting, I was basically like slating myself. I'm like, oh God, I didn't hand this off because part of the same thing. I like NPD. Why do we have nothing launching before Chinese New Year? Why me? Because I'm like, oh, I really wanted to put the briefing together. Guess what? I didn't. I'm mad at myself right now. Speaker 3: Okay. Speaker 2: It was a rough meeting today. That's why, because I'm not even taking my own advice, but I'm aware of it. So that's part of what I need to do is actually be like, Who can help with a pipeline of ideas? You're not a unicorn. You might think you're good at it, but give your team the chance to win. Yeah, anyways, I'm very emphatic because I just realized all the mistakes I'm making today, again, because it's one thing to know it, but it's like, you know, it's like an ongoing practice. Speaker 3: So someone that's out there that's selling now, that's doing everything themselves, what would you say should be like the first three steps that they do to actually get to the point where you're at right now? Speaker 2: Yeah. Okay. So if you're selling yourself, and I guess this goes at almost any phase, is for you to know who to hire. What you need to do is there's templates online is make do a time study, not digitally, but actually print it out because there's something about writing things down with an alarm on your phone every 15 minutes for two weeks. What is it you're doing? And I've got like kind of like a breakdown. You know, like what is like survival, eating, sleeping, you know, self-care, family, but then within work, what are the things you're doing? And then what is strategic and what is tactical? And this right here is going to be so telling because a lot of people think a lot of what they do is strategic because either they like to do it or they don't trust other people to do it. But so once you have this two-week time study, you can, okay, imagine picking it up and shaking loose the easiest tactical tactics. What would be tactical is like, you know, customer service and I've run into someone that's like, no, I know the customer best. I know their products best. No one can do it. I was like, do you know that you can do FAQ based I've built a CRM on Google Docs. You literally can. Exactly what you would say in these situations, you can build a template. If you shake loose what is low-hanging fruit as far as tactical, then make a process that anybody can do. Yes, it's not going to be you. You can use Loom and there's going to be a little bit of iteration. Then from there, because you did the time study, you should know exactly How many hours this position should be and at what level? Because often what we end up doing at the end of that is being like, or like without doing that, we're like, I need someone to do Amazon. I'm going to get a VA full time. Well, great. Like how long should it actually take? Because you know who loves not being fully busy? B players. They love that. And you know who you're going to lose? A players because they don't want to be bored without a clearly defined objective. So it's like easy enough. If you're replacing what you're doing, perfect. That's actually the most straightforward place to start that people get the most overwhelmed. So start with a time study, put some stuff together, and then you can put together, what if you're like, okay, it's only, it's 15 hours a week. I'm going to start with a VA, experiment with some of these processes, see what it's like checking in with them once a week, and then you can build it from there. Speaker 3: That's awesome. I know we could probably sit here and talk for hours and hours more, but we'll have to have you back on a future episode of the AM-PM Podcast. This has been awesome. Lots of great information and lots of good insights and I think it's going to really help a lot of people listening. Speaker 2: It's such an honor and thank you so much for the opportunity to be on your podcast. Speaker 3: I appreciate it. Speaker 2: It's been awesome. Speaker 3: If anyone wants to reach out to you or find out more about you or anything, is there some way they can do that? Can they follow you or whatever? Speaker 2: Yeah, probably. My personal Instagram, that's better than email for me. So it's just Erin.Graybill. I hang out there the most. Speaker 3: Awesome. Well, thanks again for spending some time today. This has been great. I appreciate it. Speaker 2: Of course. My pleasure. Speaker 1: Erin and I could have spoken for another probably several hours. As you can tell, she's a passionate entrepreneur that really enjoys what she's doing. She really enjoys creating and providing value to her customers. That's something that a lot of us could spend more time on is really focusing on how do we provide that extra value? How do we make them smile? Just like that QR code that she said, it just goes to make them smile. They scan it wondering what the heck are they going to get and right now she hasn't quite figured out exactly how she wants to leverage that, but it just goes to like a pun she said, just to put a smile on their face. That's something that you want to do in your products and in life is just try to put a smile on somebody's face and just see where that takes you. We'll be back again next week with another episode of the AM PM podcast. But before we go, just want to leave you with these words of advice. The world rewards you for value provided, not time spent. The world rewards you for value provided, not time spent. See you again next week.