#320 - Amazon Product Differentiation, Branding, & Packaging Hacks With Norm Farrar

#320 - Amazon Product Differentiation, Branding, & Packaging Hacks With Norm Farrar Speaker 1: Welcome to episode 320 of the AM-PM Podcast. This week I'm speaking with my good buddy Norm Farrar. Norm and I have known each other for about six years now almost in the Amazon space. We like to have cigars every time we meet up at an event. It's like one of our traditions and we just kick it and just share stories. So today that's what we're going to do. We're just going to be sharing some cool stories. You're going to find out a little bit more about Norm if you already know him that you didn't know. And we're going to share a few cool little tactics on some things that can make a huge difference in your business, especially when it comes to packaging. So enjoy this episode. Unknown Speaker: Welcome to the AM-PM Podcast. Welcome to the AM-PM Podcast, where we explore opportunities in e-commerce. We dream big and we discover what's working right now. Plus, this is the podcast where money never sleeps. Working around the clock in the AM and the PM. Are you ready for today's episode? I said, are you ready? Let's do this. Let's do this. Here's your host, Kevin King. Speaker 1: Norm Farrar, welcome to the podcast, buddy. How are you doing? Speaker 2: Kevin King, glad to be here. Speaker 1: You and I have known each other for a day or two, I guess. Actually, since what, was it 2017 that we first crossed paths? I don't think we really got to know each other, but we It was a head bob. Speaker 2: What's up? Speaker 1: I think it was in Cancun at the Helium 10. Back then it was called Illuminati, which it's now called Helium 10 Elite, but back then it was called Helium 10 Illuminati and it was the mastermind, the very first one that Manny Guillermo and I and Mark put together in Cancun. I think it was May of 2017. It was awesome. Speaker 2: That event was one of the best events I've ever been to, but that's where we met. Speaker 1: And you just, you just, you were like the last guy I think to buy a ticket. It was like a $10,000 price tag back then. It's hard to get that kind of money these days, but back then that's what people were charging for these high level events. But I think you were like over in Spain or somewhere at some other event and someone told you about this one and like last minute you changed your plans and like flew over and bought the very last ticket or something like that. Is that, is that right? Speaker 2: I was in Mallorca at an amazing event and somebody told me about it. I got on my computer and I booked a ticket and you guys charged me full price. Speaker 1: Oh, you know, there's a sucker born every day, you know. Speaker 2: All right. All right. Speaker 1: No. So at that event, I think there's quite a few people at what we have about 60, 70 people, I think, at that event. Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. And really, it was solid. It was rock solid. The people that we met there. And, you know, we always talk about why we love going to events. Elena. Todd, Todd Snively, Joe Valli, everybody that I'm in contact, I'm still in contact with probably at least 50% of the people that were there. Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. There's a lot of business relationships and business deals and partnerships that actually came out of that. I think you even created a mastermind with someone. Were they at that one or was it the next one in Hawaii where you met? Speaker 2: No, I met Dave Kettner there. Ended up in a mastermind with him for about two years. Speaker 1: Yeah, you did the AMZ and beyond, I think it was or something like that, right? Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: Yep. Speaker 2: Yep. Speaker 1: So that's, that's why these events are, you know, sometimes people are like, why, man, it's too expensive to go. But when you get the right people in the right room that are at that same level, you know, you don't got the new people that are just starting out or the people that aren't so serious. If you're going to spend that kind of money, because it's not just the ticket price, it's the travel and the hotel. And I think actually we included the hotel in that one. Speaker 2: Probably not my ticket. Speaker 1: I think it was an all inclusive. I think you actually got the hotel. I think we included that. Speaker 2: Yeah, you did. Speaker 1: And hotel and food. But yeah, so you meet people at that level that are serious, you know, anybody's gonna spend that kind of money is serious about their business, serious about expanding it. So it's, it's always, there's just so much value in that. But before we get into that, let's let's just tell the people that don't know who you are, What's your background in this eco? I mean, you've been, you know, I've sat around and had cigars with you and we've talked for hours, you know, at different events, just hanging out. That's one of our favorite things to do is Norm and I will go to some event and we always find a way to sneak off and either it's just the two of us shooting the shit or sometimes other people join us and we sit there sometimes till three, four in the morning. Just smoking cigars and having a Coke Zero and just talking life and business and whatever comes up. And that's one of my favorite things. Every time I see you, it's like I know it's going to be a great night. You know, it's just good company. Speaker 2: We always do have a good time, don't we? Speaker 1: So I know a lot of the story of it. You've been basically an entrepreneur since you were in diapers. And every time we sit there and talk about this stuff, there's always like, oh, I know this guy, or I used to do this. I'm like, holy cow, you've had more life experiences and done more stuff than almost anybody out there, whether it comes to personal or business. So just give us the short backstory for everybody that may not know, where did Norm come from and what's his actually story to get to this point? Speaker 2: Okay, so one of the things to get to this point was a little bit of business experience. So I got out of college, I dropped out. And in my last semester, I dropped out my last semester, really stupid, but I had a business idea. That's how stupid I am. But anyways, my buddy and I started a promotions business. This is going to sound like it's going to be a long answer. Speaker 1: You're like 21, 22 years old, something like that. Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe not even that. So we, well actually to go through college, I started a business. It was a video business and the government, a government agency picked us up. So I paid most of my way through college through this, through this video production company. Then after that, I got into business with a really good guy and we started this promotions company. And the typical, this is where research really helps, but the typical promotions company at the time was a two person operation making $300,000, 23% gross margin. We figured out how to do this. We went to bigger companies. We figured out that people will pay more just as perceived value. I always talk about perceived value. So we package the products. We put a t-shirt in a poly bag. The poly bag would have our name on it. We'd remove the liner or we'd add our label inside. Everything costs a bit. Speaker 1: Just to stop you for a second to explain what a promotions company is for the people. It's just so they can follow. The promotions company is basically someone comes to you and says we want a bunch of pens or we want a bunch of hats or a bunch of jackets or a bunch of coffee mugs with our logo or our design or something and you facilitate that process. Is that correct? Speaker 2: Exactly. So we didn't want to be that two-person operation. So we ended up saying, what can we do to be better than everybody else? We didn't want to live with 23% gross margins. So we ended up starting with becoming vertically integrated. We bought a screening company. We bought an embroidery company. We bought a courier company. And we ended up going into a fulfillment business. Speaker 1: How did you do that at such a young age? Did you have access to capital? Or did you work deals? Speaker 2: No. You know what happened? It was a deal. Our customers knew that we were customer service eccentric. Okay, we would do anything for our customers. So this started with Hershey's and if my buddy Dave, my partner at the time, is listening. He got the ball rolling. We went over to Hershey's and they wanted to, we got in, they liked us, we tag teamed. So his personality, my personality, you know, we worked off of each other and they liked us. So they were going to give us an order for some product, but it was 15 grand. We didn't have it. So, we got them to pay COD or to give us the payment in advance. So, we got that. We could pay everything. We went to our next order and to our next order. Anyways, we ended up getting a ton of Fortune 500 companies, but what we did is reinvested in boxes. Quality, like really nice corrugated boxes. We had tape that had our name on it. We had fragile things, so if it was popped, don't open the box. Anything came to us. If you received my Lunch with Norm mugs, you saw how they are packaged. It's top quality. We ended up spending a little bit extra, but because of that, we were one of the fastest growing industries here in Canada at the time. In six months, we went from zero to two and a half million bucks. We were at about 45% gross margins. Like we killed it. So things were going really great. And one of the bigger fortune fives here was my client. And we were trying to get deeper and deeper and deeper. And this is how this started. This is how this whole e-com started because e-com wasn't really around back then. Speaker 1: So, when was this, like the 80s or something? Speaker 2: This was in late, no, this was in about 1995-ish, I think. So, I knew about the internet. It was BBB, they're bulletin boards, right? CompuServe was around AOL. So, anyways, World Wide Web wasn't really a big thing. I ended up getting a contract for this one Fortune 500 company to sell products to 20 of their locations around North America. And I was sitting, I flew into San Jose one day. This is crazy. So I flew into San Jose. Everybody was really in a pissy mood. And so it just happened that the VP of purchasing was in from Calgary. So, we went out for lunch. I said, what the hell is going on with these people? Everybody's so pissy. Usually, it's pretty, you know, everybody's, you know, pretty nice. He says, the bloody non-contracted suppliers. We can't pay them for 180 to 240 days. And the problem is they're thinking they're going to get paid 30, 60, 90 days. And I went, well, I'd be pissed off if, you know, you're stringing me out for 240 days. I got paid 30 days. So during the conversation, this is at lunch, at the end of lunch, I said, how about if I take on those payments? And he looked and I said, I'll be your non-purchasing contract. I'll be your purchasing department for non-contracted people. You pay me 30 days. You give me five points. And I'll pay them in 90 days. Two weeks later for this huge Fortune 500 company, I became their non-contracted or their purchasing department for non-contracted supplier. And I was buying, I remember for the masters, I bought $250,000 worth of tickets. It was crazy. So, Anyways, how does this affect e-com? The same Fortune 500 company comes back to me and says, we want to create this thing on the worldwide web where our dealers can get our logo on a pen or a mug. Can you do something like that? I said, yeah, no problem. I had no idea. I didn't have any idea about e-com, but I knew that the people I were paying in India did. Because they were happy with us turning around the payments in 90 days and not 240, guess who became our allies? And we asked them if they could help us. We did this e-com site, and it worked. And all of a sudden, other companies were hitting us up. I ended up with, our company ended up with probably one of the first five print-on-demand companies in the world. So people would want a logo. We would say, all right, you can have a logo. You can have your logo in 48 hours up to three weeks. And we, again, because of these Indian contacts, we were outsourcing to India for $60 for a logo to be turned around in 24. And we were turning around, it was $3,000 if you wanted it in a 48-hour time period, and it went down to 395 bucks if it was three weeks. So just leveraging this. So at the end of the day, one thing I learned, and this is Richard Branson, If an opportunity ever comes your way, if somebody says you can do something and you can't, just nod and say you can. Figure it out later. And I'll figure it out. That's exactly it. And that's not an exact quote, but that's something I've lived with and I've been involved with a lot of different companies because of that. You know, opportunities are always there. They're always there. Speaker 1: And so what, did you exit that company and sell out or what ended up happening with that company? Speaker 2: Oh, it's a bad story. So this is a, I've had a lot of successes. I've had a lot of failures. What ended up here, and one thing I'll never do again, is because it was such a massive, massive company, right? And we were with all these other Fortune 500, but nothing to this huge contract that we had with this one company. They went under. I don't have to mention the names. They went under leaving us out like I had to pay off all sorts of suppliers. We just we went under we went from at the very top. To the very bottom within few months. It was horrible. I had just our staff, like we had 23 people, 23 salespeople that were involved with the company. You know, you're trying to make payroll, you're trying to do everything. It was horrible. But, and I was 28. That's how old I was when it finally ended up hitting the fan. So going from millions. Speaker 1: 28 with like a newborn or at that time? Speaker 2: Yeah, well, with a newborn and finding out the day coming out of the hospital that you have to declare bankruptcy, it was horrible. Yeah. Something you don't want. Yeah, it was horrible. Speaker 1: Now, a lot of people would stop at that point. A lot of people that are trying to be an entrepreneur or trying to get their freedom, when something bad like that happens and You end up having to pay out of your own pocket. They're like, okay, forget this. I'm just going to go back to a day job and just make sure that I'm comfortable and safe and my family is protected. But not you. You're like, what happened next? Speaker 2: Oh, okay. So let me see. There's a few things that have happened. Oh, okay. So I got into business again. We started to finance the business with a buddy's credit card because I couldn't have credit for seven years. And that business went well. We continued to do business. It was cutting edge business. Like this one, we had, I told you this on the cruise, but we had this PDF file that came up. It was more of a tech incubator. And it was a PDF that I think even to this day would protect music rights. And we had it where if you had a music, a song in there, it was digitally embedded, where if you did forward it or if you did try to copy it, you could trace it back. So it pretty much wiped out pirating. Well, a little bit before it's time. If you think of people walking onto screens, like you see this all the time on the internet now, but we created this product where people would come onto screens like Shaq, like the Miami Heat. Before the season started, Shaq and Dwayne Wade at the time would come on And if they won a game, they would say something. If they lost a game, they would say something. We didn't know what the outcome would be, but they would trash talk or they would do whatever. And entertainers would come on and they would talk about their music schedule, seeing you at a certain time. We had all sorts of people using this new technology. And then my buddy in this other business, NetEvents, we ended up creating this sidebar, we called it. And to this day, I've never seen anything like it. We worked, we had a couple of Microsoft contracts. So we had three Microsoft consulting contracts at the time. One of them was to work with Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer directly when they were doing their keynotes, we were doing the audio visual for them. We were also Microsoft's educational arm when it came to like the internet was still not a big thing. So they're off online products when we travel around Ontario or Canada with all these computers teaching people all the Microsoft products, like all of them. And then the last thing was this thing that we developed called the sidebar. And you could use this with Internet Explorer, where all your information Of whatever you are a fan, it was all fan based. So one of the people that we were working with at the time was Alan Iverson. The other ones, there was another with the, it was Randy Moss. It was a test with Randy and then friends. And what it did is let's say Alan Iverson at the time went to the Olympics and he wanted to communicate. There would be a streaming board that would come across talking about Iverson. If Philadelphia was playing, if you couldn't watch the game, it could flash the score up. We wanted it where we could get the rights to do it on your TV or on your computer, but we would have all this information there that a true fan would want, including a merchandising arm. With Randy Moss, let's say it was the Raiders and this was all, this was test, but you're watching during a game, you could click on Randy Moss's jersey and it would take you to the merchandiser, the outlet, and you could buy it online. This is 19, this is in the 90s still. In the 90s. And so with friends like the we took that and we did the same thing there, you know, TV show friends. Yeah. And so like Chandler, if he was wearing a cardigan, you could go there. If there was a vase that was on the desk, we could click on that and you could buy it. You could go to L.L. Bean and buy. It was all done. It was all you click and you purchase. This was all set to go and nothing ever happened with it. So it was really cool. At the time, we had this incredible Credible email that is still to this day, it was like a mini website that when you got your email, it was a graphic. It was a lightweight graphic that would open up and we did it for so many companies, but you would open up and like this, we couldn't get this to go, but we were working with Ford and we were trying to see with the Mustang. They had a really great video and we were trying to work with it and embed it at the time, but we were having problems with delivery. But you name, like there were so many companies that were working with this and you got it, it would It would either be a thank you email or it would be a benefits email or a promo email, but it was beautifully laid out, lightweight, and easy to deliver. Speaker 1: You did a lot in technology. You did a lot around the internet, but you've also done several businesses that have nothing to do with the internet or technology. Like a few retail type of things at one point and then like a, didn't you own like a recovery center at one point in Hawaii as well? Speaker 2: Yeah. So, uh, I did that, uh, before I got into that, uh, my dad saw what I was doing in India and he, uh, he approached me and he said, Hey, how would you like to, uh, you know, get into some manufacturing, some contract manufacturing. Um, we, we noticed that like nobody was going over. Uh, to China or to Taiwan, we were in Taiwan and we ended up selling to American companies. Uh, they would save about 30%. We would save about 70%. And it was really interesting how this all happened. But anyways, it was my mom trying to find some, um, My mom, you know those little, I know your wife will know this, the EVA foam wedges that you use to put on makeup? My mom brought them home and she was saying, you guys should sell these things. What are you talking about? And she goes, they always turn yellow. Can they not just be white? I don't like yellow foam. And my dad, he's a super entrepreneur. Like he is mega entrepreneur. And he looked at it and he researched it. He ended up creating this massive machine, foam, like EVA machine in the US. Hiring a chemist, and I don't know, within months, we had this patent, this white foam. We were also doing some other things, but it was a lot cheaper to do some of these other EVA products overseas. So we ended up with a factory. Now, technically, we didn't own the factory. We had a husband and wife team that ran it, but we owned two factories. My brother did something very, it was brilliant. We were selling a really thin foam. And by the way, we owned 60% of the market when my dad was finished with this, with the EVA. So we were in Eckert's, Walmart, you name it. And we were doing all the private label for them. And then we got into this wood-handled stamp company, thin EVA. It was worth like half a penny. And my brother had asked the guy, hey, Can we do this rubber stamp for you? Like, can we do the rubber vulcanization or the wood, you know, wood handle stamp? And the guy said, yeah, I mean, send me some prices. We said, save this guy 30 points. We set up to get the wood handle stamps done, all a variety, like back when stencils were being done and like all these arts and crafts. Turns out that almost overnight, we became the world's largest wood handle stamp manufacturer because we found a wood in Taiwan that would match maple here. And we went from a half a penny to Packaging these wood-handled stamps. And then we ended up looking, because with a wood-handled stamp, what makes sense, the next move? It's an ink pad. So we ended up buying an ink pad or a plastic company over there. And they ended up, they had a contract with Yves Saint Laurent, Chanel. So we were making all the makeup containers. So that was just, it was just kind of, it was a by-product. I mean, and because of the wood handle stamps, all of a sudden we were selling, I don't even know how many of these ink pads, but they went hand in hand. Speaker 1: And didn't your father, something evolve out of that too, where you guys became one of the biggest manufacturers of wipes, like disinfecting wipes in the world? Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it was my, we came up with a patent for cleaning. Like if you've got a New York City subway was using them, hotels were using them. We had the contract for almost every gambling like slot machine where you had to clean, but to clean it effectively, it was a flat surface. These cards that were people using alcohol swabs. And he made this card called a waffle card, which caught more dirt. So if you're using a swipe machine, like a Visa machine, or any type of swipe, it gets dirty. So you have to clean it. You know, your hotel room, everything, you have to clean it. So, yeah, that was something that was very successful and it was fun because we even had three slot machines in the back of the factory where you can go and play if you wanted. I didn't win anything. It's like my dad, you know, I almost got paid. What came out of that slot machine is what my dad paid me, squat. Speaker 1: I mean, you've done a lot of different businesses. How did you pivot into this whole Amazon, Shopify, Walmart type of stuff? When did you discover that and how did you get involved? Did you launch a couple of private label brands? Did you take a couple of things your family was doing and move them into that or how did that begin? Speaker 2: Yeah. A friend of mine, he's a pretty smart guy. He was into SEO, said, hey, you want to check out this thing called AMA? And so I looked at it, and I thought, I don't want to get involved with this. But he comes back, and he says, look, they're having this thing in Vegas. You've got to come with me. Let's just get a room together and see what they have to say. Speaker 1: Is it like 2012, 2011, 2012? 2013, I think. Speaker 2: So we ended up going to this thing and I'm going, wow, this could be cool. I know about marketing. I know about packaging. I have the fulfillment center. One of the things that came out of doing all the private label for other companies We had specialty packaging machines back in Auburn, in Auburn, Maine, and so I had everything that I needed, including the knowledge for advertising. So I'm thinking, this is great. During this time, I hear this guy talking about he's a deer in the headlights, and he wished he could just specialize in what he did. He was a doctor. So, I overheard him say, if I could only beat the SMP, and I just said, I can do that. And I took a product. He didn't know what it was. I went and sourced it because we were in China now, or we were in Taiwan, but we've sourced in China. I was sourcing in China back in the 90s with our promo company. But anyways, I gave him 10 products to choose from, and he picked two completely different products. We went with both of them, and that's how my Amazon Optimization started. I started with their product first, got into my product, and my brands started to take off. I'm in a few different brands. I still have my brands. And yeah, so there was my Amazon business starting back around 2013-ish. Actually, at that conference, Your partner is where I met your partner, Steve Simonson. We were outside at a taxi stand, Riz and I, and this guy comes up and goes, mind if I share a ride with you? Unknown Speaker: Yeah, no problem. So anyways, that's where we met Steve and he blew us away. We thought we were pretty good with e-com and he goes, yeah, I'm not really selling that much on Amazon right now. He goes, but I do remember my first sale. It was, you know, I couldn't wait. It was exciting. He goes, then I remember when we got to a thousand dollars a month, Oh, $10,000 a month, a hundred thousand dollars a month. I go, you know, all right. He goes, but I was with my wife, I guess it was in Europe. He goes, and I had my first million dollar day. I didn't know who the heck he was. Now we've become good friends, you know, and, uh, your partner. Speaker 1: Yeah. He's a partner of mine and a product savant. Yep. Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but you'd never know who you're going to meet. Speaker 1: No, you never know. And he's very unassuming. You'd never think he's just some aw shucks kind of guy. But when he speaks and he's definitely been around the block and got a lot of experience. Super smart guy. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: And very good businessman. So that you so you started selling some of your own stuff, which some of what you're still selling today. But then you also remember you pivoted in there where you made some partnerships. And I think one of these actually came out of the helium 10 elite will back then Illuminati the Hawaii event, there was a guy from India, I believe that came up that was at that event. And you guys ended up partnering and you started doing stuff for other people, you know, basically account management, people will come to you and say, Hey, I don't know what I'm doing here. Can you run my PPC? Can you Can you help me with the inventory? Can you help me with the sourcing? And so you had quite a few clients and you guys developed some really cool systems and some really cool spreadsheets to manage these. And I think at one point you told me it was like six figures of profit a month. Or something like that. It was like crazy money, crazy, just like printing money, doing this and helping these people. And so you did that for a while, but then something happened where these aggregators started buying up the companies. Speaker 2: And well, yeah, but that's so that partnership, it lasted about a year. Brendan Young was involved with that, too. So it was the three of us, but didn't didn't last long. It's just one of those things that didn't work out. But I went on doing my my management service and like you said, we it went really well. There was some good times for a while and you know, the clients all got it went both ways. It was a win-win. So we provided value and we enjoyed these clients and we grew some of these clients eight-figure clients, you know, some of them came to us with nothing and we grew them. The problem was the business model was flawed. I didn't think about this. I think about it now. And that was aggregators. We had no bloody idea. And I say we, I had no bloody idea. And I couldn't see that if we grew this, that all of a sudden our client base would be gone, evaporated in very short period of time. And I'm sitting there going, I'm watching my profit, like my revenue just decrease. It was nothing. You know, I ended up from like, I think out of six clients, I ended up, I'm talking bigger clients. I ended up with one client. Now you have to scramble. I took about two weeks to sit down and go, okay, how do I position the company so it can continue? I still like working with companies. I really like growing companies. How could I do it? I figured out a way. And I also figured out a way that if I'm growing a company that, and I'll tell you a story. I took a company that was losing money at $10 million, brought them up to over 16 million in a year and a half. And at the end of the day, when they sold, I thought, oh, I'm going to get my piece. You know, I got to make some money. And I got like, you know, just pocket change. And it was almost like, Oh man, there was definitely kinks in the armor. So I went back. I went to an attorney. I tried to figure this out. I went to some friends that were fairly good businessmen. And I said, what can I do to protect myself? So now it's, you know, there's the onboarding fees are still there. It's performance based. So everything's cool. But if we're building a brand, I'm talking about building a brand. Then we said, okay, we want a piece, a percentage on exit. That's all. We just want to be treated fairly. And so we're back. We're doing that. You know, we're going down an omni-channel version of what I'm doing now. Speaker 1: So it's very good. Is this the soap company that you're doing? Speaker 2: No, the soap company is one of my brands, but no, this is a company called Dragonfish. I used to have a company called AMZ, AMZ.club, but it was too Amazon-centric. The way things are going over the last year, I said, we got to change the name. Because everybody thinks, as soon as they talk about you, it's Amazon. So we just took this generic name and we tell people now, if they contact us, that we're not only Amazon, in fact, Amazon's one of the things, but we're talking about Walmart, the Shopify experience, especially retail. People have forgot about retail. And so we try to Manage your brands, grow their brands through those, usually those four different channels. Speaker 1: And one of the things you mentioned it earlier, and I know it's one of your hallmarks of what you do, and you're similar to me in this way, but a lot of people, it's just something that they just don't understand or don't want to put the effort or the money into, but it's differentiation with packaging. You're huge on that and I think it was you that told me a story about some swords or something like that where you did something and the sword was in one type of box and I'm just making things up here and it was selling for 10 bucks but then you put it in some sort of other type of packaging and you sold the exact same sword for like $50 or something crazy like that. Can you tell me? Speaker 2: You're almost there. You're almost there. It was a knife. Speaker 1: A knife. Okay, a knife. Speaker 2: Cost of goods was $16. The client was selling it at $49. And I looked at it. It was an ugly clamshell package. It suggested that we could change this and have an outer box. So it kind of looks like an iPhone box, really clear silhouette on the outside, full color process on the other side. So people see what they, when they got it, they could see what the knife looked like. Really cool. Then you opened it up and it was a rigid box with a magnetic clasp. When they opened it up, it had all the features and the benefits of this full four color process knife right there. You didn't see the knife. You had to unveil the knife. So you opened it up and then you saw the knife. And really beautiful, like the logo was in the pivot or the rivet and it was also on the blade. Change that and we were able to go from, we tried different price points, but we went to from 99 to 124. Exact same knife. Speaker 1: Nothing changed. Speaker 2: Nothing, nothing, nothing changed. Nothing. Speaker 1: And how much did the extra packaging cost you? Speaker 2: $3 ish. Not even that. So, I don't even think it was close to that. But anyways, even the, we put it into a high density compression foam, like an EVA foam. So when you got the knife, it looked beautiful. And then you popped it open, like there was a thumb groove. Everything went into this, like convenience and just psychological things. Oh, you don't have to force your fingers in to get the knife. There was a way to pop it out. Um, and then, uh, the insert went to an extended warranty. Now, this is where we cleaned up. I didn't tell you this part. We created a 52 week meal plan. And we also created two cookbooks. So if people signed up for the extended warranty, they also got the meal plan, but we would email them. Now, this is if they're registered, right? So we would have their email address. If they wanted the weekly meal plan, we'd send it to them. Now, how do we develop the weekly meal plan? We sent the knives to chefs, and we sent the knives to culinary schools, and we asked them for recipes. So they gave us all these recipes, and they kept the knife. They took pictures with the knife, and we asked them to tag us on Instagram. We got tons of user-generated content. Thousands of user-generated content for people that were giving us 10 photos, 100 photos, giving us photos with food. And we could use that over and over and over again, plus videos, like some of the videos that we have, beautiful, really well done. Okay, this is now, we started that a few years back, but as of right now, that same culinary school, guess what they're doing? An Amazon Live cooking show. They're going on. They're using all of the knives now. There's a full selection. We've got it where they've agreed that they're going to broadcast a cooking lesson through Amazon Live. During the live, we're going to be selling the product. Just going back to that knife for a second. So then went back and this is where talking to a manufacturer really helps out. So we went back and we said, what can we do differently that kind of keeps in the same price point? He said, well, hammer, hammer the knife. Okay, so they showed us these hammered knives and the exact same knife is a Damascus steel. One's hammered, one is layered and same price point. Okay, let's get a wood case and let's get like the satin finish and let's make it look even better than the other one, package it in a black box, etch it with like a premium, whatever the edition was, and it stood out gorgeous. All right, so it was the wooden. I know this for a fact. It was $3.50 packaged with the wooden case. That $16 knife was introduced at 224 bucks. Speaker 1: Wow. That's the power of branding and packaging that so many people just completely overlook. I know I've given stories about my bully sticks and about some of the stuff I've done in other podcasts and other presentations. People eat with their eyes first. I'm not just saying that because it's a knife, but in anything. You can kind of take value by ramping up your presentation and your packaging. Also, good packaging makes people feel like they made the right decision. They get that knife in a blister pack. They're like, okay, this is a cool knife, but it comes in this nice Apple, iPhone type of box with the little wedges, like you said, for the fingers to pull it out. It just reconfirms in their mind when they get it, like, I made the right decision. This is cool. And they're more likely to give you a good review. They're more likely or less likely to give you a bad review, even if the knife, you know, was dull or whatever. It's so, so important to do that. And I know you like on your podcast, I'm not sure it's a podcast, but it's also a live that you do three times a week. I don't know how you do that. The Lunch With Norm every Monday, Wednesday, and Thursday. If you haven't checked that out, just Google Lunch With Norm or it's got a YouTube channel and it turns into a podcast, but you bring in on guests every single day. I've been on it a few times, but you've got a wider range of guests talking about everything from branding to PPC to doing Amazon Lives to getting to Shopify to just setting up systems. How did that come about, that Lunch With Norm? What made you decide to do that? Speaker 2: Well, first of all, the diversity is because you don't want to be on one legged stool ever again, right? So not just one thing. How that happened, uh, It's going to sound crazy, but COVID, this is a positive COVID thing, sitting on my balcony, watching the water. My boys were out there, all three boys, Quintin, Kelsey, and Hayden. We're all, except for Quintin, having a cigar, sitting back, shooting the breeze. And I got a phone call. And one of the calls was just the person asking for some help. And I said, yeah, yeah. I know this guy. So next phone call came, yeah, I can get back to you. I know this guy. Third one was, I know this guy. That's how the other podcast happened, like the Amazon or sorry, the I know this guy podcast, which it was short lived. But my kids said, why don't you get in? Why don't you start a podcast? You know, you have a network. This is how the whole podcast talk started and it was like, no guys, I can't do that. You know, I, you know, this, I get nervous. I get like, I have really bad nerves. I'm a lot of the times like now it's easier because I, I kind of understand where I'm going, but those first days doing the podcast, something went wrong. I'd be in the fetal position shaken, like, you know, crazy. It was very hard to do, but it was the kids that said, you know, why don't you do it? So. We started that I Know The Guy podcast with Danny McMullin that said, or McMillan that said, you know, we were doing a little bit of content. He said, why don't you turn that into a podcast? So kids, again, let's do it. Let's do it. So at one point during COVID, we had two podcasts going. One, we stopped, you know, the I Know This Guy podcast, we stopped, hopefully bring that back. But the Amazon one lived on. And it was all because of the kids. Speaker 1: So what would you say you've been doing in a couple years now? What are some of the, maybe two or three of the biggest aha moments from guests on that show that you could share with us? Someone that came on and just like blew you away, like holy cow, everybody needs to know this. Speaker 2: It's constantly happening, Kevin. And you must get this too. Like one of the benefits of being a podcast host, you don't know everything. And people come on and they tell you things and it's like, what? And that's, that's happening like that. That happens all, all the time. Like just something as simple as we had Mark Casey on and he said, Oh yeah, you can, you can put the display. So in your product page and your product listing, It shows up that you have a newer product available in the display and it shows the product and you can click on it and you can get extra sales like more people will click on that. That's just something recent that I found out about. On the influencer side and the live side, there are so many things. I never knew how important it is to go live with a brand. I learned that from Maya Gordon. I learned it from Gracie Ryback. I've learned that from all sorts of people about taking that post. I talked about posts quite a bit. Well, that's important, you know, and people not doing it properly and understanding now how to do it properly. Even when you start taking a look at what's happening right now, sourcing, where do you go? Well, I know that most of my products right now are U.S. based. If I'm trying to find a new product, and I have got two brands that over the next little while are going to be launched, and they are in the U.S. So that's something that I've been able to take a look at or at least look at outside of China. What am I experiencing in China? I've heard a horror story, somebody going into China and losing money because of the economy over there and COVID that they lost a ton of money. I heard a story just recently about products sitting and waiting to be shipped. And this goes back a few months, but their product got moldy. It was a $40,000 loss. And because of that, the seller tried to go back to the manufacturer and the manufacturer wouldn't give her the 40 grand back. So these are all things that you learn. And okay, how do I prevent that? How do I prevent something like that from happening? Another thing is, and this is, Something that's very near and dear to my heart is cash flow and inventory management. My whole inventory strategy right now, so I never run out of stock, never, is something that I learned on the podcast. So those are just a few things. Speaker 1: So one of the things that on the podcast, you call them, was it the Beard Nation or the Beardos or something? Speaker 2: Beardos, Beard Nation. Speaker 1: So this was, you know, a lot of people know you from your beard. They've seen you at different events. They've seen the animations or you online. They're like, ah, I know that guy. That's the guy with the beard. But that was a very deliberate marketing choice, right? Because I've seen pictures of you before you got into this e-commerce game. There was no beard. There was no mustache. But did you sit down like in like 2014, 2015 when you decided, hey, I'm going to I need to get my name out there. I need to establish a brand. How can I stand out? What can I do? Let me grow a big beard. Is there some truth to that? Speaker 2: A hundred percent and it happened. So I knew I wanted to grow a business and this was before I went to Mallorca and about, you know, it was about three months before I went over to see you guys, maybe a little bit longer. And I knew I wanted to do something in Amazon to grow a business. And I knew that like I've gone to some events and I started like I tried to I was inquisitive. So I'm emailing some of the speakers saying hey, I just wanted to get some more information. We're talking about this. Nobody would remember me. Nobody would remember my name. I was clean-shaven and I was sitting down with a buddy of mine and in Canada, it's Movember, but it's also during the playoffs for hockey that the hockey players grow a bit of scruff. So that was one of the things that started this thing going is that, okay, I'm growing a bit of scruff because, you know, it was the, I believe it was the hockey season, but anyways, it might've been just straight Movember, but I kept it growing. I went over, I was meeting with my buddy and he was the one that said, I'd be a great brand. I said, do you think so? Do you think a beard? And he said something like, Roy Orbison only had sunglasses. And I said, maybe I could do that. I started growing it. And at the first event, Mallorca, you know, I'd reach out and people would know me. When I went to your event, it was like, oh, like the guy with the beard. And that's what we did. We've got logos made up. We got all this stuff. Any business that I'm involved with, like the podcast or the other thing, it's all about the beard. I'm the beard guy. I'm known as the beard guy. Speaker 1: Now, there's another guy in this space. He's actually at an event that you and I just threw back in October, the Collective Mind Society event where it's more of an experiential mastermind type of thing that we do. We're doing another one at F1 in 2023 in Austin in October. You'll be announcing some stuff around that but it's a really cool event and one of the attendees at this event is the other guy that has a beard in this space and y'all were chatting and he's like, yeah, sometimes I get mixed up for you or you guys get, you know, there's two beard guys and his name is Abe. He manages a lot of PPC accounts and stuff and does a really good job on that but your beard is, I think, a little more full and longer. Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And you know, if his ever gets starts to catch up, I'm going to come up with one of the clippers and just whoop. Speaker 1: Grow you a mohawk. Speaker 2: Yeah, there we go. That happened, by the way. Speaker 1: The mohawk guy. Speaker 2: When I was cooking the burgers, I had a mohawk in my beard, remember? The burgers came up, burnt it, and it was Yosemite Sam-like. Speaker 1: So Norma, what's next for you? What's the next hot thing that you're working on right now? Speaker 2: Well, the money-making, you know, where I can live and I can, you know, maybe eat bologna once or twice a week is this brand company called Dragonfish where we're working with It's omnichannel. That's where things are going, not just Amazon. It's omnichannel. So that's one of the things that I'm working on, but got a challenge for my kids again about influencers. So one of the hard parts for Amazon sellers is trying to find influencers, what platforms, how to approach them, Just, you know, just to try to communicate and to see if you are getting ripped off or not. And the other side of it is a lot of sellers or a lot of people are trying to become influencers. So it ended up, I took a challenge from my kids saying, because I'm not an influencer on the buyer side, I have zero, I literally have zero followers and created this challenge. I'm going on TikTok once a day, giving advice on how, what happened. Like good, bad, and ugly during the day about getting influencers or being an influencer. And during this process, I've set up a system. I need products. And I just, you know, saying anybody who wants to listen, send me products. I'll go on Amazon Live. I do shoppable videos. I do photography. It's all free. I'm not asking a penny. If something works out, you get a purchase, well, that's where I get 10 point. I get 10%. It's a straight 10%, but I'm also paying for all the ads. I'm doing this really as an experiment. I could be doing some other things, but you said, well, how are you going to make money at it? I'm not going to make money at it. People don't know how competitive I am. And when they say I can't do something, I just want to say, I'm going to do it. I'm going to get a hundred thousand followers by December 31st and it's all going to be organic. I'm not going to buy anything next week or next, not this December 31st, next December 31st. And it's going to be called Lunch with Norm Deals. And that's what I'm doing. And I know you think I'm crazy for doing this, but that's what I'm doing. Speaker 1: It's going to be interesting to see what happens. Yeah. I'll be following that like closely for sure. Well, Norm, I know we could sit here and talk forever, just like we do when we have a good cigar and our Coke Zeros. But I want to say thanks for taking your time. I know you're really busy. You got a lot of irons in the fire. I appreciate you coming on to the AM PM podcast. And I'm sure we'll have you back and see how this challenge goes. And there's a lot more stories to tell, because like I said earlier, every time I'm with you, I'm like, Holy cow, this guy has, he knows this person, knows this person, he's done this, he's done this. Like I've told you, you need to write a book. Or write some little short little essays for your kids. That's one of the best things. I think I told you this on one time when we were having cigars. My dad sat down. My dad's in his 80s. And a few years ago, he sat down and just typed up these short little paragraphs about stories about his life, how he met my mom, who his first girlfriend was, his teacher, his experience in Vietnam. Two or three paragraphs, just like short, straight to the point, little like, like little really short, short stories, but just little nuggets from his life. And you know, it's, it's fascinating for me to actually go back and, and he gave it to me, you know, five years ago or so. And I read it then. And then I was cleaning some stuff about what I told you about about six months or a year ago and found it again and read it again. And I'm like, this is just amazing to have. And you've got Tons of those. And hopefully we can share them on another podcast. But don't forget to write some of those down because I know your three boys would love to have that. Speaker 2: That is something. When we were on the cruise, I came back and I said, I got to do that. That's some of the best advice I've received. And I plan on doing it. I hope I can come back. You know, I love talking with you, Kevin. And I really appreciate you having me on the podcast today. Speaker 1: Thanks, man. And we'll talk to you soon. Unknown Speaker: All right. Speaker 1: Norm and I could sit here and talk for hours upon hours and just tell stories, but I hope you enjoyed this episode and got something from it, especially the little example he gave there on product packaging and how important that is. It can make a huge difference. I'm a big proponent of that as well. It's something that everybody just seems to skip over or not fully understand the true value of that extra little added cost and that true differentiation. It's something that can do wonders for your business if you really take it seriously. We'll be back again next week with the next episode of the AM-PM Podcast. I hope you're having a great Q4 and a good holiday season. And before we go, I just want to leave you with this week's words of wisdom. Think about what you want today and you'll be spending your time. Think about what you want in five years and you'll be investing your time. Again, if you think about what you want today, you'll just be spending your time. But if you think about what you want in five years, you'll be investing your time. Have a great rest of your week.